how to learn "normal"?

[Rhymes w/Orange]

Hi

My kids and I have been separated from dBPDh for a little while. I left for their sake, although it was killing me too- I would have sacrificed myself, but I couldn't do it to them.

Problem is, they have never known normal. OK, please don't tell me how normal is a dryer setting and doesn't really exist, every family is dysfunctional, etc, etc. I mean their lives have been  so completely whacked that people would have called me a bad parent for allowing them to live like that, even though I didn't actually do anything. My staying and trying to hold things together were bad for the kids, but it wasn't just during that time, their whole lives have been altered in strange ways for the supposed benefit of dBPDh.

Now here we are, finally calming down, and I realize we have nothing to fall back to. Usually people go through stress and when they get a break they go back to normal. There's no normal here. We only know stress survival mode. So it's like a new sort of stress they are going through. Ummm, what do we do now? How do we relate to each other without threats to our survival? Who are we without chaos? What is life about if not making it through the day alive? And how do we grow up, we never had to think of becoming adults before, there never was time, and we knew we weren't allowed to outgrow the emotional level and functioning of BPD parent. They don't literally say these things, but it's what is going on.

They are seeing a T, but it's slow going. I thought I would ask you guys for your thoughts.

Thanks.

[Matt]

How old are the kids?

And how are each of them doing?

When we separated, I got a place nearby, and did my best to establish the "new normal".  Our old house we had called "La Casa Loca", because it was always crazy there.  The new one - with no people with BPD in it - we called "La Casa Pacifica" (the peaceful house), and I made that my goal - to always have it peaceful and calm there.

The kids (and me too, to some extent) were used to chaos and crisis.  I had to consciously point that out when they got upset over things.  It's been five years and I'm still working on that issue - recently D16 broke a dish and got very upset, like it was the end of the world - but we're all doing much better than before, because there is no reinforcement for crazy behavior.  I point out to the kids, "When you see a bug, screaming won't make anything better.  Just deal with it or come get me to help.", and they get that in their brains, but in their hearts they still have that early training telling them that when something goes wrong they need to scream and look for somebody to blame.

Counseling for you and the kids is probably a good idea.  If you can add elements of "normal" - like music, flowers, quiet activities - and take away things that add stress - like loud TV and fighting - little by little you can probably calm things down.

You might also need to have talks with each kid, to point out specific behaviors that you believe aren't helpful.

":)16, when you break a dish and then scream, that's not the kind of house I want to live in.  And it makes us less safe because your screaming might distract you or somebody else from doing what's safe.  I need you to learn how to stay calm when something breaks, and decide how to deal with it."

"S14, when you see a bug, you can either deal with it yourself, or ask me for help, or just leave it alone.  But I don't want you to yell about it.  Let's have a calm, quiet house and act like adults even when there's a bug or something else we don't like - OK?"

It works pretty well, but not all at once.

(At the same time their mom was creating the most chaos, their big brother was struggling with drugs, and adding a bunch more chaos.  I think we all got used to the adrenaline and needed a fix.  It seemed like something was missing when both of them weren't around - it was kind of boring.  But after awhile it became our "new normal", and it's way healthier.)

[Rhymes w/Orange]

Thanks Matt

I appreciate your reply. I especially value your words to your kids. I have the same goals but I don't know how to say what I want to say, or what rules to set, even.

"That's not the kind of house I want to live in". Perfect.

"Let's act like adults". Yes.

These are the kinds of ideas that I used to have. It's been so long with so much stress that I lost my ability to come up with that stuff. Trying to get it back. Got any more?

A recurring issue is S14 treating his brother like the brother is a dog, or sub-human. I realize this is how the brother was treated by dBPDh for his whole life, and S14 is doing what he has grown up witnessing, and feeling justified doing it. It's very pervasive.  Any ideas on handling this?

[Matt]

Well in talking to the kids, I try not to tell them what they're doing is "wrong" or imply that what I'm asking them to do is "right".

One way I heard is like this:

"When you do X, I feel Y, because Z."  "When you break a dish and scream, I feel concerned, because screaming is likely to lead to even more upset and mistakes."  It's a way of saying how the child's behavior affects me, so the child can decide for herself if that's what she will do.  (But sometimes it has to be repeated, after she finishes making excuses or blaming someone else.)

The way S14 treats his brother - how old is his brother?  Can you give us an example?  How does the brother respond?

[Rhymes w/Orange]

Thanks Matt,

Brother is 10, very sensitive and naive fo his age. Being raised in the environment he was has made him more at risk for BPD, I think. Although he is not rebellious, he internalizes everything and whenever anyone expresses any emotion, he assumes it is about him, positive or negative (mostly negative).

S14 can generally treat him as if his opinions have no value. If S10 says something, even ust commenting about something on tv, etc, S14 will repeatedly say "whatever" in a tone that says "you're an idiot". He often just treats S10 with contempt. But like I said, dBPDh has always treated S10 that way, so S14 is just copying. I have tried talking about how it makes S10 feel, but S14 has been conditioned not to care. S10 sometimes acts hurt, sometimes angry, and sometimes acts like he believes it must be true, and treats himself badly.  So you can see it's a problem.

[Free One]

I've realized that I have to do a lot of direct teaching with my S8 to create our new normal. I think I've taken for granted that he would know certain things (ie, how to get ready in the morning) without me reminding him constantly. We made lists of what needs to be done, along with times they need to be done with and that has helped. We post these lists, as well as "homework rules" in the house as reminders. It all comes down to consistency and routine. That way he knows what to expect and is less stressed. We've also worked very hard on talking about feelings and about how other people (even mom!) can't read your mind. You have to communicate what you need, want, feel and think WITH WORDS. It's a long road and a slow process, which takes focused attention. It's hard when you are also trying to take care of and heal yourself, but it will pay off.

[Matt]

It's hard to know if there is a big problem with a child's behavior, or whether he's just 14, and all 14-year-old boys are jerks sometimes.

Probably his mom's behavior has influenced him a lot.  Even if she has BPD, that doesn't mean he does (or will).  All of us who live with someone who has BPD - even adults - our behavior is influenced by theirs.  Kids are especially likely to pick up bad behaviors from their parents.

I think you're going about it right, but it will probably take a lot of hard work - Free One says "It all comes down to consistency and routine." and that's what I've experienced too.  You'll probably have to talk with S14 a number of times, to correct the behavior you don't want - treating S10 badly - and to reinforce good behavior too.  And you'll have to be very consistent in the way you treat both boys yourself, so you're setting a positive example 100% of the time.

[Cmjo]

Hello BPDhope,

I understand must have been a hard decision to leave. What was your BPDh's behaviour that you couldnt take any more?

I left my exBPDh three months ago for the second time, moving out into a nearby residence. The kids were with me for the first month, now they go back and forth between the houses without any consistent pattern, because I cant commmunicate with exBPDh, he just wants me to go back. My D11 was getting the worst of it at the end, I believe now it was splitting, he didnt speak to her for a week ut showered S9 with presents and attention, so I left for her, but also for me, because I felt the last few years of sacrifice were making me ill, I still wonder if I should have held out, or should go back for their sake. ExBPDh is very angry with me, and so are the kids, but it is S9 who is showing it the most.

Last week they actually stayed every night with their dad apart from Wednesday night. Its hard to have a regular schedule because BPDh does shifts, either morning or afternoon, and I go to work in the city three or four days a week on the days that he is able to pick up the kids from school, and once he has picked them up from school and taken them to sport and done their homework it makes sense for them to sleep there. But I worry about them spending so much time with him. He doesnt understand the effect of his anger, and though I have asked him in countless messages, he doesnt make any effort to shield them from the fallout of this breakup.

I went to pick up the kids to take them to school one day, walked in the house, I saw BPDh and S9 in the bathroom, h asked my son to shut the bathroom door so he wouldnt have to see me. Or one day son ran out of the house sayig mum you cant leave without saying bye to Dad (because they know he will get angry about it and rant about me after I am gone). I didnt say goodbye because he hadnt come to say hello to me in the first place, I knew he was in his usual place of on the bed with the laptop.

Exactly like Matt, when we left I said that I couldnt take the shouting any more and wanted to live in a peaceful house, so wouldnt let them shout or swear. I kept saying it but it didnt really work, both of them have had screaming tantrums, and occasionally I have screamed back, usually after about an hour of pleading for calm.

I wouldnt say lets act like adults to the kids, because they arent yet, and because they dont know what that means.

I am proud that they are responsible kids, they do well at school, they have friends, they are careful, they are polite to others, but I so want them to grow up into balanced happy adults.

So talking is the only key, and for me not to lose it when they push me to the limit, even if that means I have have to leave the room if they dont stop screaming (I feel guilty for our neighbours!) and to repeat that this is a place of peace... .  

Glad to know you are all there, I do need help and guidance right now, and we all need the answer to BPDhope's question... .  how do you teach normal when you try all the rules in the book and they just dont seem to work?

[Rhymes w/Orange]

Hi Cmjo,

It was really the welfare of the kids that did it. The stress was way too much and they were learning BPD ways of acting/thinking as their "normal". I knew I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I allowed it to be their destiny. I was the only one with the ability to stop the cycle, and I could only hope to do it if I removed them from that environment. I didn't want to go.  :'(

So the kids are the priority here. Unlearning BPD stuff is important. But I am at sort of a loss as to what "normal" is and how to learn it when all you know is compensating for BPD. I know schedule and consistency are important, I admit I really haven't got this down yet. I would appreciate any other issues to work on, or ideas.

[Free One]

Another issue I'm working on with S8 is that it's ok to make mistakes, but you do need to take responsibility for them, which may include apologizing or cleaning up if something was spilled, etc.

Also, talking about feelings. We are working on it's ok to be sad and angry, but it's not ok to hit, kick and call people mean things. And, if something is bothering you, you need to communicate that with the other person so it can be worked out, instead of mind reading begin expected.

Working on not splitting and that everyone has good days and bad days. Sometimes people are tired and cranky, sometimes they are friendly and want to play with you. People get to be human AND be your friends. One bad day doesn't mean they aren't your friend anymore.

Self reflection. I do a lot of questioning. ":)id it make you feel good or bad when you made xyz choice. Is that how you want to feel? What choice can you make next time to feel better about it?"

[mamachelle]

Hey BPDhope,

I am a parent to 2 daughters with my exBPDH and stepmom to 3SS who have a BPDmom. My nonH and I have a toddler together.

I have dealt with the fallout from both of these BPD parents.

Yes, be consistent. It may take a long time but you remembering to pick them up and listening to them and just being a mom to them will help.

Yes, get good therapists for each kid and yourself. The T needs to understand the wounds that BPD parents leave.

Yes, try to get some behavior therapy in the home for both boys and set up reward system and chore charts and any other area of problem like TV time or Video game access or staying out of kids room or not fighting.

It may be hard to motivate S14 so ask for help from T and therapists. Authority figures can help with both boys in getting their relationship from being abusive. You need to be very explicit with your son and his therapist with younger son in room at some point that the abuse can not continue. Call it what it is as 14 is not too young to learn to be a good big brother. Watch for secretive nastiness and keep a close eye on both boys.

I have a SS15 who has ended up being DX PDD-NOS (autism) and Bipolar  who is an internalizer and we worry may be heading for schizophrenia and another SS10 who is DX Bipolar but who will probably end up a BPD at some point unfortunately. My other SS8 has behavior issues. He used to be kind of more fearful but is now more angry and explosive. I had many problems with SS10 and SS8 where 10 was aggressive and attacking 8 year old. It has gotten better since we intervened with therapy. behavior therapy, psychologist and psychiatrists! oh my!

Excellent book recommended here on the boards which fits the profile of both your more agressive and your more internalizing son that I read last year and keep at close hand is:

Parenting a Child Who Has Intense Emotions: Dialectical Behavior Therapy Skills to Help Your Child Regulate Emotional Outbursts and Aggressive Behaviors [Paperback]

Pat Harvey LCSW-C (Author), Jeanine Penzo LICSW (Author)

You will also have to work on 'validation' and there are some excellent resources for that on here as well.

So, anyway, I know this is a lot but congrats on leaving your H and I hope you can take comfort in that you are trying to make things better and you are.