BPD's wanting to return but now knowing how?

[happiness68]

I was thinking this morning ... .    I wonder, people suffering from BPD, when they walk out (the way they do) after an argument and become stubborn about not returning convincing themselves that the non was going to leave or abandon them or didn't love them enough - do they have fleeting moments of wanting to return, but not knowing how?  I believe this is a possibility.  Are BPD's capable of this type of emotion?

[GreenMango]

Happiness those emotionally mature problem solving skills are difficult for many people, but add BPD/BPD traits and it makes it that much harder.  I noticed a lot time the defense mechanisms like splitting (love/hate) and impulsiveness really created a block in this area.

I'm sure there are moments they want to come back and sometimes don't know how to do this... .  it takes a lot responsibility, owning emotions, etc to do this.  Sometimes shame is too much.  Splitting (black and white thinking) is defense mechanism, not just employed by people with BPD but common in BPD, can really throw compromise, reconciliation, owning mistakes very difficult.

Why do you ask?

[happiness68]

GreenMango - it's something I believe of my ex.  In the past when we used to have the walk out moments, after he always told me how if I'd left him be he would have come back himself.  He just needed a bit of space, even though he was mainly angry over nothing.  I also remember when we'd been together for about 6 months and had the usual scenario, argument, walk out.  I'd written him an email at work the next day, but didn't manage to send it because I hadn't finalised it and was so busy at work.  The next day it was ready when I left work, but it didn't feel right to send.  That evening, as I walked home from the train station, there he was crossing the road (he knew my timings).  He used to go to the barbers opposite to where I live and that was where he was going, despite having been off work all day and could have gone anytime, but he chose to go when he knew I'd be around.  I approached him (scared as I was) and we sorted things out.  I remember him saying to me how he'd sat there all day checking his emails every minute to see if I'd sent an email and he didn't know how to deal with it.  I believe that was always the case. I believe that to be the case now, though 3 months have passed now.  He almost made a sneaky return that day, because of his fear or trying to return and not knowing how.  I believe that was always the case with him.  He has very poor communication skills.  I obviously don't as speak with my heart on my sleeve as you can see 

[GreenMango]

I found all conflict resolution had to come from me... .  this included not holding the person accountable, making amends, the lionshare of communication and responsiblity etc.

It's a hard way to live being the emotional caretaker for a person who doesn't know how to do these things.  And trying to communicate for two on top of that ... .  I don't even know how that worked.  Strange looking back at it and seeing things a little differently with more perspective.

On the staying board part the "deal" if you are in a relationship with a person who struggles with this disorder is becoming the emotional lead because your partner has very limited skills emotionally, it includes communication, control, etc.  It's hard road.  The good with the bad.

Do you think you could have lived like this the rest of your life, his illness/behaviors as is not in the future with therapy?  What parts were the breaking point for you?

[happiness68]

Because I loved him, I think I could.  I'm quite a strong person.  The walking out and creating distance was something that really got to me and perhaps one day it would have broken me.  I don't know.  I don't think my exbfBPD is as bad as some people that I've heard about/read about.  That's why I wonder if maybe there's apart of him that could try to reach out.  As I say, I believe that's what it was when he reacted the way he did 6 months ago.  I don't think he'd ever for one minute apologise, but maybe just maybe he would try to make contact somehow, although seemingly by accident.  Another thing that makes me think that is that he's also quite arrogant and probably believes that he hasn't really done anything that badly wrong (he has because I've suffered so much and I wouldn't have done otherwise).  I'm not sure.  It's just something that came to me this morning in the gym and I wondered what anyone else on here would think.  Thanks GreenMango.  I know what you mean about it all having to come from you.  That was the pattern of our relationship.  My exbfBPD had nothing else in his world really other than me.  He told me I was "his world" and it was true.  He had his life to a certain degree, but nothing substantial.  His children at uni, he didn't like his job, his parents sadly aren't around anymore and most of his friends are married.  I really was "his world". 

[Diana82]

Hi again Happiness 

I keep wondering the same thing. Does my ex ever think about at least sending me an email to say 'hello hope you're well'?  Or will she ever want to make peace... ever?

My other exes and I have all reached out to one another after a break up... at some point. Even if it's brief. Most have even said "I do miss you... " even though it meant we still weren't going to get back together.

This is the first relationship (even friendship!) where I have been completely erased. It's as if we never even dated... or ever met.

I don't think my ex ever intended on trying to make peace with me- otherwise why would she have changed her number and then burned all bridges?

Her friend told me she "wants me OUT of her life".  And I believe him.

I think this splitting thing is exactly true of my ex. I believe I am split back for good.

I doubt she'd turn around and even say... "Oh I'm sorry I changed my number and ignored you for 2 months when you asked me to return your things. I'm sorry I never gave you proper closure or a chance to talk things through. I'm sorry I allowed my friend to call and abuse you on the phone and do my dirty work for me. And I'm sorry I have gone around and smeared you to people. Wanna get coffee?"

[happiness68]

Hello Diana82 - yes, it does sound that way.  My ex didn't change his number and I know that he also read a lovely email I sent him just before New Year.  He still has it.  We will see.  I guess all this speculation does us no good.  We just fester on it sometimes.  I need to start getting the rest of my life in order and thinking about me.  If he comes back, we shall see what he says and what I feel at that time.  I guess that's all I can do for now.  Being cut off though really isn't a very nice thing I agree totally.

[Diana82]

When I was pleading with my ex not to leave me she said "Why do YOU want to be with me now?  How can you ever trust me again?"

I thought it was a weird thing to say. Because here she was saying that I apparently hurt her so bad- she had to break away.  

It was as if she was on some level trying to tell me she thinks it's pretty low of her to dump a long term partner over an argument... and that I shouldn't want to be with someone like her.

She must know that she can't control these behaviours and maybe that was her attempt at being briefly compassionate.

I also think that maybe because my ex cannot forgive people... .  she thinks I wouldn't be able to forgive her for walking away after an argument. She thinks in black and white... and perhaps assumes other do?

[Diana82]

so did your ex walk out on you after an argument too?

[happiness68]

Yes Diana.  It was his pattern.

[almost789]

Yes, I think they do sometimes want to come back. But it's their shame that keeps them away. For instance, Diana's comment that her BPD says... .  why do YOU want me now, how can you ever trust me again?  This is their mentality, they believe that if they make a mistake or do something wrong you should just throw them away. After all this is how they think. We do something they don't like a few times, they split us and throw us away. We can never be trusted again in. A part of them may want to return, but their shame and their splitting will not allow it. Mine came back a few times, but it was only because I said I would take him back no questions asked, no discussion. Unfortunatley, even when he came back. I think it was HIS shame that he could never be close again. He just was never the same each time he came back it was like child returning to parent with their head hanging down in shame. A completely different person than who he was obviously when we met and through the idealization stage.

[FoolishOne]

My BPDw may have wanted to come back several times, but she always facilitated it so I was the one that made the initial real effort.  Her "effort" would be a one word text... .  like "Hey"... .  or "Hi"... .  or maybe a "Miss you".  Then, of course, I would follow up with my gushig of emotion and we're magically back together.

But honestly, I think the BPD is not really capable to genuine remorse, guilt or shame in the sme way we are.  99% of their actions are purely self-motivated.  They think, "What's in it for me and my affirmation."  So, most of what they say or do is ultimately a means to an end.  I know that sounds harsh, but the results speak for themselves.

Thoughout these boards you'll read time and again, stories that are seemingly unbelievable but true.  I doubt very few of these stories are made up... .  Some may be embellished a bit, but suffice it to say that the results are in... .  our BPD S/O is self-absorbed, in constant emotional turmoil, and feels entitled.  They rationalize anything and everything from stealing from us, lying and sleeping with others.  It is what they do... .  and worst thing about it all... .  they don't see it that way... .  They see us as the "affected one".  They have an incredible ability to spin and redirect... .  and are quite convincing. 

In the end, the bototm line is that we can't win... .  and as soon as the gambler realizes that the game is fixed, he needs to leave the table.

F1

[happiness68]

SummerT321 - Yes, I can see where you're coming from.  I didn't see it like that in the past, but I do now.  I believe my exbfBPD would have felt like that, but then he has this arrogance about him too, plus mixed with the fact that he would probably think there's a small chance he could return and I would forget all that happened just to have him back.  

I sent him an email on NY Eve too almost to show that I've forgiven.  I didn't know what I wanted to say at the time when I read what I'd written, but now looking back and reading what you've just said to me, that's it, I wanted to show that I've forgiven him in my own way and that I still love him.  I basically started saying that I hoped he'd had a lovely Christmas and spent time with his daughters and how I'd had flickering memories of us last year at a hotel that we went to and of course thoughts and moments of missing him.  I told him how I didn't know how I had the courage to write the email, but that life's too short and I've never been too proud to wear my heart on my sleeve and nobody else can know what choices are right for us in life, only we know.  I then added the phrase about how time passes so quickly and people come in and out of our lives, but we should never miss the opportunity to tell these people how much they mean to us.  I went on to tell him that as I was kissing out 2012 it brought thoughts of us and I put mention to some holidays we'd had and some fun times full of laughter, one of which went something like "our/my first ski trip - where I went from thinking I may die to thinking I'd become a professional after 2 hours ... .  ", the list went on with mention to 5/6 holidays we'd had together.  They were things in there to make him smile and remember the good stuff.  The final paragraph said how I don't think he'd ever realised, but he'd had me from the word hello and how I wished he could have looked inside my head and my heart to see and feel it too.  I signed it off and then added a thought for a happy 2013 - Life is short, so break the rules, forgive quickly, love truly, laugh loudly and never avoid anything that makes you smile.

I didn't hear back from him.  I didn't expect to, but I felt relieved when I'd sent it.  I didn't want for him like these other BPD's to think for one moment that I didn't love him.  I kind of felt how dare he think he's going to walk away from me without letting me say the things I want to say if you know what I mean.

See, by my letter, I believe I opened the door slightly showing that I've forgiven.

Perhaps you're right about the shame.  I must admit I'd be ashamed and wouldn't dare return, but then I wouldn't have done this in the first place and one thing I've learnt from BPD is that you should expect the unexpected.

[almost789]

happiness, they are quite narcisistic, meaning that they need us and others to fuel them. He hasn't responded to your email, however you left the door open. Just because he hasn't responded yet doesn't mean he never will. Sometimes I think they return simply to get some attention in between their escapades with other new people. Sometimes they return with a real desire to get back what they had. But because we have taken down their mask, it's impossible for them to face us in the same way they used to. We are no longer that perfect mirror for them.

[happiness68]

SummerT321 - taken down their mask?  What does that mean?  I agree that it doesn't mean that because he hasn't replied, he will never return.  I don't know why, but I've always believed that he will sooner or later.  I don't know if I'll still be waiting around though, as my promise to myself is to move on and if he returns he returns and I will deal with it then.

[FindingMe2011]

Do you think you could have lived like this the rest of your life, his illness/behaviors as is, not in the future with therapy?

Because I loved him,

This is your justification for accepting this behavior, and stems more from DPD traits than it does anything else. The Disney fairy tales, Romeo and Juliet, on and on. Know that these are classic examples, of dysfunctional r/s'. It was very sobering to learn. People seek out (gravitate), to others that are close to there own level of maturity. It was more than just chance, you ended up in this r/s.

I think I could.  I'm quite a strong person.

I spent 12 1/2 yrs with the illness, Im also quite a strong person. I learned of the illness, as the r/s ended.  Appx. 5-6 yrs into it, I realized that I was raising another child. She was reliving her r/s with her mother, with me, as the stand in, and with my issues, I was more than willing to take this on. I was determined to show her, there was a different way. I could spin things, to believe our r/s was progressing. But it always returned to square one, and we started all over again. The hamster wheel of pain... .  But here was the costs. The longer it went, the more enmeshed I became, no matter how much I tried to protect my self, and still trying to help her. I started to take on her traits. I remember looking in the mirror one day, and wondering where I went. Its a severe mental disorder, and rest assure you were no match. Therapists that understand/deal with this illness, even when successful, only curve the illness, not cure it... .  My recovery. I too, have only curved my issues. But I understand my weaknesses, and have gained much more maturity. With this, I can see things for what they are. Not what I want them to be, nor what they once were (the fairy tale). Understand you were just an enabler for the illness, not a match, and  never could be.

The walking out and creating distance was something that really got to me and perhaps one day it would have broken me.  I don't know.

This was digging into your abandonment fears, can you see this. A way for him to keep control, and most likely done on a subconscious level to some degree. He didnt understand the dynamics, just as yourself, until now. He just knew it worked, and he got the results he was looking, for him to stay some what regulated... .  So if you really want to be honest with yourself, say your above statement like this... .  Because I loved him, in a very dysfunctional way ... .  The illness dictates this, no exceptions.

That's why I wonder if maybe there's apart of him that could try to reach out.  As I say, I believe that's what it was when he reacted the way he did 6 months ago.

 

No need to wonder, this is spot on, for the most part. Its a child mentality. I see this in my own children, and in my r/s with ex,(it continues today) and how my behaviors,came into play... .  Create a situation that can easily become twisted, to turn it back on you, if the results are not what the illness needs( a stroking of the ego). A just by chance run in, a pocket dial phone call, a message from a mutual acquaintance, the list goes on and on, and my ex invents new ways, constantly. Couple this with,

  I approached him (scared as I was)

, you becoming dysregulated, and reverting to your coping mechanism (your inner child), and the cycle continues. As confusing as it can be, there is an order to the disorder. With you leaving this event believing this person has understanding. The illness cant see this.

Another thing that makes me think that is that he's also quite arrogant and probably believes that he hasn't really done anything that badly wrong

NPD traits are a must, to some degree, to cover the BPD traits. In the world of black and white thinking. To put themselves as bad (black) for any long period of time, is seen as death,(when they start to experience the depression a healthier person must, endure to make a change) Its another crux of the illness, thus the need to be constantly reminded they are good, and your personality is the perfect fix, for both of you. Yes you are getting something from this, in the form of helping. But the results is no healthy out come for either. You must deal with your issues alone, and he the same.

My exbfBPD had nothing else in his world really other than me.  He told me I was "his world" and it was true.  He had his life to a certain degree, but nothing substantial.  His children at uni, he didn't like his job, his parents sadly aren't around anymore and most of his friends are married. 

A part time self. The results of unhealthy attachments/ detachments from the primary care giver. (parents). Its a need, not a want (big difference) to have to attach to another to create a whole person, that leads to the fairy tale story mentioned above, and hopefully gives some insight for yourself, about you. It still has me wonder at times, is it the degree of trauma we experience?, genetics?, some of both?, that explains how we turn out? Its a subject that could be discussed forever... .  I wish you well, PEACE

[almost789]

happiness, the BPD mask is their false self. They have to have this perfect image of themselves and want to project that perfect image onto others. When their mask starts to crumble, by you finding out their false self is not really who they are, but a false them. They split you and leave. Your right about the arrogance, mine had that too. The shame part is there, but its hidden.

[patientandclear]

In my case, yes, my uBPDex got stuck after he left.  He wanted to explore getting back together but, he said, he couldn't figure out how.  Calling or texting or emailing & saying "I would really like to talk to you; could we get together?" -- that was not something he considered, apparently.  He said "I always thought we'd talk," but apparently he was waiting for me to initiate it, even though in the immediate aftermath, I had practically begged him to talk to me and find a way back together.  He later said he didn't know what to do to arrange to see me again, since he didn't even have any of my things to return to me.  Which, I suppose, is how he's handled it in the past when he's precipitously broken it off with women and came to regret it.

When we did finally talk, too, the reason that was so important that we had to break up had just melted away.

All the time we were apart, as far as I could tell, he was cool as a cucumber. Seemed fine in our emails about other topics.  Only later, when we talked, was it clear he'd been agonizing, had been in counseling to discuss whether he was right to end it & whether it was responsible to try again, and so on (BTW his therapist apparently said no.  Apparently he kept saying he couldn't stand to hurt me again, and the therapist told him that if we got back together at that juncture, he would (hurt me).  I hated her for telling him that for a while -- because he took her advice & changed his mind about getting back together -- but she was no doubt right that he had not done the work necessary to understand why his relationships are so unstable).

Fast forward -- we're friends now.  Sometimes very close.  He still pushes me away, and then gets stuck.  I have to undo the stuckness, sometimes to an extreme degree (we'll be emailing about the situation, he'll go silent, I'll wait, I'll wait some more, debate writing this off forever, finally write one more time ... .  and then it turns out he had written a draft email but never sent it, but thought he'd sent it, didn't know what my silence meant, didn't ask ... .  ).

So yes, in my experience, if you want things to proceed, very often, you need to show that the light is green.  Note that this is different than smothering or constantly pursuing.  I think you have to give a lot of space, too.  But periodic indications that all is well or that you welcome contact I think are necessary sometimes to overcome these troughs.

[patientandclear]

When I was pleading with my ex not to leave me she said "Why do YOU want to be with me now?  How can you ever trust me again?"

I thought it was a weird thing to say. Because here she was saying that I apparently hurt her so bad- she had to break away.  

It was as if she was on some level trying to tell me she thinks it's pretty low of her to dump a long term partner over an argument... and that I shouldn't want to be with someone like her.

These clues are telling you a lot.  Because of the operation of the disorder, she is not able to trust in the closeness between you.  Very often, this seems to be because the pwBPD feels bad, and cannot believe you would possibly stay with them, especially not once you see this.  Once the perfect "mask" they were trying to maintain for you has slipped.

My ex, with whom I am now pretty close, has been saying I am "naive" (not in a mean way, and he's worried he's offended me ... .  but the idea keeps surfacing).  I'm not naive, so I've spent some time wondering where this is coming from.  I think it's that he cannot believe I still like/love/care for him after the hurt he inflicted and the strange behaviors he seems powerless to completely stop (he pushes and pulls, though he doesn't rage and is never outwardly unkind).  It really is not something he has allowed himself to believe for any length of time -- that someone who really knows him will still like him and want to be with him.

SummerT321, you wrote something similar, about how your ex would return but like a shamed child to his parent.  Good analogy.  So you can see how, if you were going to try to alter the dynamics around BPD, validation (probably the most important skill taught on the Staying board) is so important.  They need assurance, lots of assurance, that their feelings are understandable and you are not scared by them.  That's a hard one to master but  you can see how our normal impulse to talk things through, attain accountability for past hurts, and so on, is very hard for a pwBPD to work with, because it just presses the shame button.

I've found that when I convey acceptance to my pwBPD, he can do his own self-examination and often presents me with progress he's made assessing ways he needs to be a better friend.  But I cannot demand that of him or convey that I find him wanting or lacking; if I do, it just confirms his expectations that I will be disappointed in him.

[patientandclear]

SummerT321 - taken down their mask?  What does that mean?  I agree that it doesn't mean that because he hasn't replied, he will never return.  I don't know why, but I've always believed that he will sooner or later.  I don't know if I'll still be waiting around though, as my promise to myself is to move on and if he returns he returns and I will deal with it then.

OK, one more post from me!

Like for many of you, my r/s with my uBPDexbf was brief and incandescent.  The love of his life, the best thing that ever happened to him, the whole thing.  He left me suddenly and for a reason that made no sense and was incredibly hurtful, and importantly, a week after we'd had an intense, glorious trip away, and then I was largely unavailable to see him for the next several days because I was sick and working hard.  One of the classic BPD scenarios.

I learned later that while we were on that trip, at the absolute high point of our closeness, he emailed his exgf out of the blue, just initiating contact.  He needed a backup plan, right? Also a classic BPD scenario.

We broke up, he suffered greatly, he saw a counselor about whether he made a mistake or what the hell is wrong with him that he sabotaged the best r/s he'd ever had, we reconnected, we discussed getting back together, we decided he needed to learn to be on his own (he'd never been, and he's 50), and we'd stay in touch while he worked on these issues in counseling, and then maybe get back together.  I kept insisting it was important to understand why he'd reacted to this small issue in our r/s the way he had (blowing us up) because he would surely feel bad feelings again about us some day, and he needed to be able to process those differently.  I thought he heard that and agreed.

Instead, he immediately, and I mean immediately, sought out that exgf and started telling her that it had always been her he was pining away for, he'd consider marriage, adopting her faith, having kids with her.  That went on till she believed him.  Then he ended it.

My point in telling this story is to look at the situation of this exgf and understand that in a way we are all potentially that person.  She was truly his backup plan.  She was adoring (19 years younger than him), naive, believed every word he said about how special she was, didn't realize he says that all the time, affirmed him constantly, and had never seen the mask slip off (he had always broken up with her before over this  kids/religion thing, never out of the blue for no reason as with me, so I don't think she saw him as dysfunctional, just as indecisive).

So she fed him the honeyed nectar of affirmation and he needed it after things fell apart with us.  She made him feel good and wanted and not a bad person.  He drew on that until it would have required him to alter his life significantly to go further, and then he stopped abruptly.  This time, it was horrible, because he'd made her all these extreme promises and then just coldly broke her heart.  Since then, he's been very distant with her.  After he & I reconnected, he apparently responded to a text from her telling her he was going to some event with a "wonderful woman" (that was me).  I mean, who does that?  To an ex whose heart you've stomped all over?

My point is that yes, they might "come back," when they've forgotten the bad feelings they once associated with you, but what is that exactly?  It is not a willingness to engage with you as a real person or show themselves to you as a real person.  It's another attempt to spin around the track with the masks on, and the reason it's typically shorter each time is that you both know too much.

This is why I reconnected with my uBPDex as a friend, not as a potential romantic partner.  We are trying to do something he has little practice at -- have a relationship that is based on who he really is, and who I really am.  It's so different than our romantic r/s that sometimes I have extreme cognitive dissonance.  And we both do slip back and forth into longing for that other kind of connection.  I don't know, maybe ultimately it will be possible for us, having walked the long road of actually knowing each other, but it won't feel like it did before, that's for sure.  And for now, I know I do NOT want to be fed a line like the exgf was, used to admire his false self, then left when I see the true person.  I want him to know that I do see the true person and it's OK.  :)oing that is very delicate and not something you can just say out loud ("hi, I see you are incredibly injured and messed up and I love you anyway".  In fact any time I've even sidled up to that issue (his issues with intimacy) he's shrugged me off with annoyance, and rightly so -- that's residue of my former co-dependent self peeking through, probably.  Yet sometimes, he presents me with his own self-critique, and I validate that, and we do fine.  I've decided to completely stop trying to help or fix him.  I am just keeping him company as he is who he is, with no particular expectations about where that can go.  As we get clearer on this, we seem to be achieving a level of stability that is very rare in his life.  It's not what I originally thought we were going to be to one another, but it's the best we can do, I think, and it is not setting either of us up for damage or hurt.

The point of sharing this on this thread, not on Staying, is that for anyone here contemplating reconnection -- if you don't want just another dose of the same, you have to take seriously how they are used to using relationships, and then consider what it takes for it to be different with you.  It isn't a matter of them coming to realize how much they love/want you, or you being so compelling they can overcome their impulses to destroy intimacy.  It takes the kind of understanding of BPD dynamics you can get on the Staying board to reconnect in a way that doesn't do damage to you and to the pwBPD, and even then, it's really hard.