Conflict between D16 and S14.

[Matt]

Traveling on business, I got a call from the kids' mom, in the middle of the day, which is rare.  They stayed with her Monday night and last night;  I'll pick them up after school tomorrow.

Ex told me:

* The D16 and S14 got in a heated argument yesterday and were both very upset.

* S14 was asking D16's help - someone had asked her to baby-sit and she couldn't do it, but she didn't suggest him, and he wanted the gig.  But it sounds like S14 wasn't asking nicely for help, he was complaining because D16 hadn't handled it the way he wanted.

* As the argument got worse, D16 dropped a couple of f-bombs, flipped S14 off, and hit him.

* Ex told D16 that she can't go to the dance next weekend.  (D16 doesn't have a boyfriend but was looking forward to the dance, going with her friends.)

* Ex was calling me to tell me all this and make sure I would follow through on that - the kids will be with me that day.

I asked about S14's behavior and she gave me way too much detail about the argument, which reminded me that Ex thinks in terms of the merits of each person's arguments, not the behaviors that cross the line.  According to her, S14 didn't use bad language or hit D16 back, so he got no punishment.

I'll see S14 before D16 tomorrow.  My thinking is to ask him what happened and just listen, then do the same with D16 when I see her.

If the story more-or-less confirms what their mom told me - and I think it probably will - she's nutty as a fruitcake but it's not like her to make things up about the kids like that - then I'll support the no-dance plan.  My thinking is, I can't say if the punishment fits the crime exactly - there's no way to say if it's exactly right - but it seems reasonable.  The key is that D16 must get her behavior under control - raising her voice or using some bad language is one thing, but physical violence just can't be in her vocabulary.

As this was happening last evening, D16 posted on her Facebook:  "You gotta love it when you get to the point where you can't even stand your family anymore because everything you do and say is somehow wrong."  She got expressions of love and support from her aunts and cousins on both sides (my family and her mom's) which I suppose is fine - they all think she walks on water, as do I.

I may call her this evening just to let her know I'm aware and thinking of her, and tell her we'll get into it tomorrow.  I don't want to undermine her mom right now, while the kids are still with her (or probably tomorrow either).

I may also remind D16 that she has been influenced by two adults who have problems and have acted out a lot - her mom and her big brother - and that she needs to get control over her behavior 100% of the time if she wants to have a car, go to college, etc.  (She's lobbying hard for a car, and except for this behavior, that would not be too bad of an idea.)

[Matt]

I called both kids last evening, just to check in and let them know I was thinking of them.

S14 didn't have much to say.  I told him, "We'll talk tomorrow."

D16 sounded sad but didn't say much.  I told her the same thing, but she called back a few minutes later, crying, and said, "Can we talk about it now?".

I figured she wanted me to say she could go to the dance, but that didn't come up.  She wanted to tell me what S14 had said that made her so mad.  (This is how her mom talked about it too - who was arguing what.)  I listened, but then brought it back to her behavior.  She admitted what she had done.  She said she hated being there (at her mom's house) with S14 - said he is often a jerk and sometimes hits her.  She said they should live separately.

We talked about half an hour before my flight was called.  I think it helped, but we'll need to talk more.

My take on it is that she was raised in a home where aggression - mostly verbal but sometimes physical - was normal, and she needs to get past that.  I doubt if she has a psychological problem, but counseling is an option.

I was encouraged that she didn't lash out at me much.  She did say, "S14 hits me and you guys (her mom and me) don't do anything about it!  But then I asked, "What was the last time he hit you when I was around?" and she couldn't remember - not recent.  After that, she didn't attack me anymore, and I think she was listening and hearing me.

One way of seeing this is that their mom doesn't manage these issues well, and just waits til it gets out of control and then imposes punishments - sometimes reasonable and sometimes extreme (but she doesn't follow through with the extreme ones).  The psychologist who did our Custody Evaluation described this in detail and said S14's behavior was clearly better when he was with me than with his mom, and he recommended that if things don't go well in time S14 should spend more time with me.  Which I consider an option.

First I'll talk with each kid today.  I'll probably stick with Ex's proposed no-dance decision, and I probably won't impose any consequences on S14, since it doesn't sound like he crossed any lines (like hitting or using bad language).

Beyond that, maybe I'll let the dust settle, and think about proposing that S14 spend more time with me.  I think S14 would be OK with that, D16 would like it, and their mom might be OK with it too.

[Free One]

Beyond that, maybe I'll let the dust settle, and think about proposing that S14 spend more time with me.  I think S14 would be OK with that, D16 would like it, and their mom might be OK with it too.

Maybe space will help. Sometimes siblings just have different personalities, and when you throw in teen hormones, and a stressful family situation, there is bound to be tension.

[Matt]

Beyond that, maybe I'll let the dust settle, and think about proposing that S14 spend more time with me.  I think S14 would be OK with that, D16 would like it, and their mom might be OK with it too.

Maybe space will help. Sometimes siblings just have different personalities, and when you throw in teen hormones, and a stressful family situation, there is bound to be tension.

Yeah, I think that's probably a good description.  But it seems like I also have to make sure that I don't accept unacceptable behavior or that will reinforce it.  And their mom isn't usually very clear about what's OK and what's not - she tends to get into the mud of who-said-what-to-who, instead of clarifying where the lines are drawn.  (Though in this case I think the consequences she laid down are reasonable.)

[NorthernGirl]

One way of seeing this is that their mom doesn't manage these issues well, and just waits til it gets out of control and then imposes punishments - sometimes reasonable and sometimes extreme (but she doesn't follow through with the extreme ones).  

It sounds like the consequence that their mom used this time was reasonable given the circumstances. It might be good to talk with your kids about "discipline" versus "punishment". Punishment is when the parent is trying to inflict some type of pain or discomfort on the child. In our case, DH's ex (UBPD) usually punishes the kids by saying hurtful things, often telling them they must not love her given what they did or that she doesn't love them. It is cruel and it is meant to hurt. But discipline is meant to teach the child the consequences of their action, and it sounds like that is necessary in your SD's case.

Maybe the reason SD didn't talk to you about the dance was because she understood that there should be a consequence for her actions. You could talk with her about that, and ask her what she has learned from the experience. By telling her you agree with her mother in this case (you can explain that you don't agree with punishment) your SD will see that even if she had done this at your house, the same consequence might have applied. So then this is about her behaviors and finding better ways to deal with her frustration, rather than it being about the fact that she was at her mom's house when it happened.

[Rhymes w/Orange]

Matt, you are doing so well. I appreciate the fact that you are sharing these events with us, it helps us learn, and it's encouraging! Thank you! 

[Matt]

It sounds like the consequence that their mom used this time was reasonable given the circumstances. It might be good to talk with your kids about "discipline" versus "punishment". Punishment is when the parent is trying to inflict some type of pain or discomfort on the child. In our case, DH's ex (UBPD) usually punishes the kids by saying hurtful things, often telling them they must not love her given what they did or that she doesn't love them. It is cruel and it is meant to hurt. But discipline is meant to teach the child the consequences of their action, and it sounds like that is necessary in your SD's case.

Maybe the reason SD didn't talk to you about the dance was because she understood that there should be a consequence for her actions. You could talk with her about that, and ask her what she has learned from the experience. By telling her you agree with her mother in this case (you can explain that you don't agree with punishment) your SD will see that even if she had done this at your house, the same consequence might have applied. So then this is about her behaviors and finding better ways to deal with her frustration, rather than it being about the fact that she was at her mom's house when it happened.

Yeah, we talk about "consequences" not punishment.  Their mom tends to be passive til things get really bad;  then she blows up and issues serious punishment, but it's often unrealistic so she doesn't follow up.  It's her out-of-control behavior that I think has imprinted on the kids, to various extents;  they learned at early ages that the way to deal with stress is to act out.

But in this case I think the consequences - just a talking-to from me for S14, and not going to the dance for D16 - seem pretty reasonable.  :)16 may still try to talk me out of it, but I think I'll hold the line.

I think you're right, D16 surely understood that consequences are appropriate when she hits someone.

I consciously try to move away from punishment and toward reasoning with the kids the way I do with adults, and that usually works well, especially the last few years.  But in this case, her behavior was childish, so I think it's appropriate that she gets consequences not just a talking-to.

I don't want to get into whether this particular consequence - not going to the dance - is exactly perfectly matched to this behavior - hitting her brother.  I don't know how to precisely calibrate the consequence and make it exactly right, and I don't want this to slip into a debate between me and her mom about the perfect consequence.  If what she levied was very unreasonable, I would intervene, but I don't think this is unreasonable, so I'm just going to support it.

I don't always believe in a "united front" - both parents being on the same sheet of music.  If both parents are healthy and use good judgment, that would be best, but I won't support their mom's crazy threats.  When she has told them something too extreme, I don't support that, and it crumbles.  But in this case, I think what will happen is that from now til the day of the dance - ten days or so - D16 will be sad because she can't go, and maybe embarrassed when her friends talk about it.  Then after the dance, it will be over, and life will go on.  I think that's a good thing - several days when she can focus on what she did, and then we all move past it.

[Matt]

Matt, you are doing so well. I appreciate the fact that you are sharing these events with us, it helps us learn, and it's encouraging! Thank you! 

Thanks!

I do think the big picture is good - both kids are moving forward.  But at times it's tough... .  

[sanemom]

I don't want to get into whether this particular consequence - not going to the dance - is exactly perfectly matched to this behavior - hitting her brother.  I don't know how to precisely calibrate the consequence and make it exactly right, and I don't want this to slip into a debate between me and her mom about the perfect consequence.  If what she levied was very unreasonable, I would intervene, but I don't think this is unreasonable, so I'm just going to support it.

I don't always believe in a "united front" - both parents being on the same sheet of music.  If both parents are healthy and use good judgment, that would be best, but I won't support their mom's crazy threats.  When she has told them something too extreme, I don't support that, and it crumbles.  But in this case, I think what will happen is that from now til the day of the dance - ten days or so - D16 will be sad because she can't go, and maybe embarrassed when her friends talk about it.  Then after the dance, it will be over, and life will go on.  I think that's a good thing - several days when she can focus on what she did, and then we all move past it.

Yeah... .  it's hard to be on the same page when the discipline is completely out of proportion to the crime, but it sounds like you know when to pick your battles.  Kids know when the discipline is out of proportion, and they will balk at that much more loudly than they will balk out a reasonable consequence.  It sounds like your D16 knows it is reasonable, and it's good you are able to agree with her mom.

You should write this down in your very short book of successful coparenting moments.  

[david]

I have been told by ex that kids are not behaving and very disrespectful when with her. I listen to kids stories and they pretty much confirm what is going on there. However, these things don't happen when they are with me so I view this as a issue between them and mom. I do not enforce her rules in my house and I have never asked her to do anything at her place. I handle things in my house that happened in my house and that is a boundary I made a while back. I do listen to them and try to find solutions for them when thay are at their mom's but that is as far as I go. Both boys used to push each others buttons at their mom's a lot. I listened and pointed out, just like you did Matt, that those kind of things are not happening at my place. I questioned why it happened there and not with me since it showed they were both capable of not doing those things and that the did have control over their own actions.

Awhile back (around two year ago) ex punished S9 by taking away his Nintendo for two weeks. However, whenever I picked him up he was allowed to bring it with him and she didn't tell/ask me to enforce her rules since I had already established my boundary. I have my own limits on his Nintendo usage and from what I gathered from listening he will sit down and play it all day at his mom's. That never happens with me. I think this is one of those nuanced parallel parenting vs coparenting issues.

[Matt]

Yeah, I usually don't ask too much about what goes on when they're with her.  I figure that's between them and her - usually.  In this case, it was Ex who called me... .  

So today D16 asked to borrow the car, to go shopping with a friend.  "Shopping for what?"  "A dress."  "A dress for what?"  "The winter formal."

So basically D16 viewed it as a threat - not real.  She assumed Ex would not be following through - a reasonable assumption, but in this case Ex had already called me and asked me to share in the follow-through.

I told D16:

* Hitting S14 was clearly crossing a line - Mom, D16 and S14 all said that happened - and not going to the dance seems like a reasonable consequence to me, so that's what is going to happen.  No dance and no dress.

* I will support raising the bar on how they talk to each other - no more verbal aggression - "You're an idiot!" and stuff like that.  She says S14 is so verbally abusive that she can't take it, and strikes back.  She understands that's no excuse for hitting him, but it's reasonable for me to reinforce for S14 that he needs to watch his mouth.

* I asked her if she thought a schedule change would help - S14 with me more often instead of with their mom when D16 goes there.  She said that's a good idea.

I'm going to discuss this again with S14, then maybe write to their mom:

I talked with both kids separately and together.  Here’s how I perceive it and what I think we should do:

•   D16 didn’t really deny anything you told me.  That means she crossed one very important line – hitting S14 – and it’s also not good that she used bad language and flipped him off.  If it was only the words and the gesture I would say it’s not a huge thing, but I think it’s critical that we not tolerate hitting.

•   The punishment (no dance) seems reasonable to me – it will certainly be on her mind for the next ten days – and I don’t think you and I should nit-pick each other’s decisions in cases like this.  So I will support that consequence as you and I discussed.

•   It doesn’t sound to me like S14 crossed any major lines, though he may have been obnoxious.  I think we should expect better from him, but I think it’s fair that he got no consequences beyond some talking-to.

•   I do think it’s time that S14 leaves his verbal aggression behind.  We need to work on that – raise our expectations.

•   D16 is emotional, and that’s OK, but she needs to control her behavior 100% of the time, and in this case she didn’t do that.  I have discussed with her that the adult stuff she wants – like going out with friends, driving, a car, and going away to college – all require that she keep her behavior under control 100% of the time.  My guess is, she will be very motivated by that and she will do better.  But let’s keep this on the front burner and remind her.

•   I have talked with both kids about nipping these problems in the bud;  that is, when they are having conflict, deal with it before it gets bad.  They can sit and talk with each other, calmly, or they can ask one of us to help them work the issue out.  Waiting til the conflict gets worse makes it harder to resolve.

•   I’ve also talked with both of them about walking away – going to their room and closing the door – if they need to get away from each other.

•   D16 says S14 hits her, but I haven’t seen that.  I told her, if that happens, she should alert you or me immediately and we can deal with it.  If she doesn’t tell us right away, it’s harder to sort out.

•   I don’t see this stuff very much, and I think it’s likely that it isn’t happening here, at least not to this degree.  I remember the psychologist back in 2008 said that he saw S14 acting better when I was around, and recommended that if necessary he could spend more time with me.  I think it’s time to consider that, both to make sure S14’s behavior improves and to give the kids a little time apart.  Let’s keep D16’s schedule as it is – maybe make a renewed effort to make it more regular, at least when I don’t travel, but let S14 spend weeknights here except when I’m out of town.  I’m flexible about the details, but pretty convinced that it’s the right thing to do for now.  We can give it a try for the rest of this school year, and see how it works.  (I suspect that if they are apart a few days out of every 14, they’ll probably miss each other and appreciate each other more.)

•   I think counseling for D16 – or maybe both of them – is an option, but I’d like to try the above first.  I feel pretty confident this approach will work.

[david]

Matt you have always given me very good advice and one thing you said a while back was to keep all communication to 3 to 5 sentences. The shorter the better. Focus on the kids and do what you think is right for them.

[Matt]

Matt you have always given me very good advice and one thing you said a while back was to keep all communication to 3 to 5 sentences. The shorter the better. Focus on the kids and do what you think is right for them.

Yeah, this totally violates the 3-sentence rule.

I'll have to think about that... .  

[Matt]

Here it is in 1/3 the words:

I talked with the kids.  Here’s how I perceive it... .  

D16 crossed an important line – hitting S14.  I think missing the dance is a reasonable consequence, and I’ll support it.

It sounds like S14’s behavior was very provocative, and that needs to be addressed.  We need to help both kids get past these behaviors.

It’s especially important that D16 get her behavior under control 100% of the time.  Adult stuff like driving, going out with friends, and going to college, don’t fit with losing control.

Let’s encourage them both to nip conflict in the bud – not wait til it’s extreme.  They can talk it out together or ask one of us to help, or just walk away.

I generally don’t see these behaviors.  I remember what the psychologist wrote back in 2008 – he saw S14 acting better when I was around, and recommended that he spend more time with me if needed.  I think it’s time to put that into effect.

Let’s keep R16’s schedule as it is – more-or-less 7/7 – but let S14 stay with me weeknights through the school year, and see how that works.  I’m flexible about the details but pretty convinced this approach will help the situation.  Let’s put it into effect and see.

[Free One]

I generally don’t see these behaviors.  I remember what the psychologist wrote back in 2008 – he saw S14 acting better when I was around, and recommended that he spend more time with me if needed.  I think it’s time to put that into effect.

Let’s keep R16’s schedule as it is – more-or-less 7/7 – but let S14 stay with me weeknights through the school year, and see how that works.  I’m flexible about the details but pretty convinced this approach will help the situation.  Let’s put it into effect and see.[/i]

Nice job on simplifying. The only area I see a problem is the statement "I generally don’t see these behaviors." Ex might see that as you blaming her. How about:

In 2008 the psychologist recommended S14 spend more time with me if needed.

Let’s keep R16’s schedule as it is – more-or-less 7/7 – but let S14 stay with me weeknights through the school year, and see how that works.  I’m flexible about the details but pretty convinced this approach will help the situation.  Let’s put it into effect and see.

or even:

I think D16 and S14 will benefit from some space. Let’s keep R16’s schedule as it is – more-or-less 7/7 – but let S14 stay with me weeknights through the school year, and see how that works.  I’m flexible about the details but pretty convinced this approach will help the situation.  Let’s put it into effect and see.

[Matt]

Here's what I sent:

I talked with both kids.  Here’s how I perceive it:

D16 didn’t really deny anything you said – she hit S14, flipped him off and used bad language.  Today she asked me about going shopping for a dress – she didn’t assume you were serious about not letting her go to the dance – but I told her I think that’s a reasonable consequence for hitting S14 – that definitely crossed a line – and I am supporting that consequence.

I think a key is that she needs to have her behavior under control 100% of the time, even when she’s provoked, if she’s going to do adult stuff like driving, going out with friends, and going to college.  Those just don’t fit with losing control of her behavior even once in a while.

I’ve suggested to her that she deal with conflicts sooner – nip them in the bud – either by walking away, by talking it out with S14, or by getting you or me to help.

She’s upset that S14 isn’t being “punished” but it’s not so clear that his behavior crossed any lines – maybe obnoxious but he didn’t hit her.  But I think he is provoking her more than he should.  I’ve told him that I expect him to communicate like an adult – not call anybody an idiot or raise his voice – and he seems to accept that.

In 2008 the psychologist who met with the kids recommended that over time it might be best for S14 to spend more time with me, to keep his behavior in check.  I think now is the time to do that.  Let’s let him spend weeknights here – even when Rachel is with you – so the kids have a few days apart.  (I suspect they will miss each other and get along better when they’re together.)  Weekends can stay as they are – I’m flexible about the details.  We can try it through the end of this school year and see how it works.

We could get D16 or both of them into counseling – she is very emotional, which isn’t all bad, but she needs to move forward fast in terms of these outbursts.  But I’d prefer to try the schedule change and some more clear boundaries around both kids’ behaviors first, and if that doesn’t work look for a counselor.

She doesn't always check her e-mails on the weekends, so I may not hear back from her til Monday or Tuesday.

Both kids seem fine today.

[Rubies]

A couple of things that I'm very aware of that may be happening with your children. It's how the BPD parent acts as the stressor that agitates the kids, then pits them against each other.

BPD gets the reward, everyone gets negative attention when blow by blow reports are required.

[Matt]

A couple of things that I'm very aware of that may be happening with your children. It's how the BPD parent acts as the stressor that agitates the kids, then pits them against each other.

BPD gets the reward, everyone gets negative attention when blow by blow reports are required.

Yes, I think that being around their mom is stressful for them, in a number of ways.  But I can't fix that.  I can only let them know that I expect better of them, and give them some ideas how to do better.

They seem to be reacting well to that;  they aren't saying, "I can't do better."

[Rubies]

A couple of things that I'm very aware of that may be happening with your children. It's how the BPD parent acts as the stressor that agitates the kids, then pits them against each other.

BPD gets the reward, everyone gets negative attention when blow by blow reports are required.

Yes, I think that being around their mom is stressful for them, in a number of ways.  But I can't fix that.  I can only let them know that I expect better of them, and give them some ideas how to do better.

They seem to be reacting well to that;  they aren't saying, "I can't do better."

Finding ways to help them recognize the stress and agitation, and methods to disengage rather than become reactionary will go a long way in preventing future events.  This is a life skill that will serve them well forever.  Teaching them to retreat separately into positive pursuits when they feel the escalation of stress will keep them from each other's throats.

Sibling rivalry and bickering is normal.  This gets blown out of perportion by BPD parenting tactics of pitting, golden & black, he said, she said.   Oh the Drama!   Looky the PAIN!  Ya'll in trouble now, hehehe!

What I learned from good parents and it served me well with my kids, if they were involved, it's across the board consequences for everyone.  Equal but different, and appropriate.  Nobody gets it worse because they were "badder."  They were part of the escalation and egging it on.  This prevents provocation and fosters unity between siblings.  I am big on seeing they practice apologies, repentence forgiveness, restitution and restoration of their relationships.

Totally get the girl hormone driven emotionalism.  The car is a great tool to use.  "No, you can't have the car until you can be trusted not to run down pedestrials on the sidewalk because they piss you off."    When daughters emerge from their room in the morning *Like That,*  Calmly say, "Go back to your room, take 10 minutes and start your day over."  At my house, the response was always BOOHOOHOO, SLAM!  10 minutes later a sweet calm collected young lady would emerge ready for her day.

Boys need a different outlet for their agressions rather than picking on their sisters.  Competitive team sports, physical labor or projects where he can achieve personal success.


We all have different relationships with our BPDXs, but I believe we set the example for our kids in that relationship.  I wanted my kids to be able to set firm boundaries and not be sucked into constant drama trauma.

[Matt]

What I learned from good parents and it served me well with my kids, if they were involved, it's across the board consequences for everyone.  Equal but different, and appropriate.  Nobody gets it worse because they were "badder."  They were part of the escalation and egging it on.  This prevents provocation and fosters unity between siblings.  I am big on seeing they practice apologies, repentence forgiveness, restitution and restoration of their relationships.

I've never done it this way when lines are crossed.  I mean, if both kids are sniping at each other, I just tell them both to shut up, or go to their rooms, or "Stop it right now or no TV this evening.", and that works pretty well.  But when lines are crossed - and I think hitting someone crosses a line - I want each kid to be responsible for their behavior.

I think this is important because their mom used that twisted thinking - "I did X because you did Y." - and I see that as super-dysfunctional.  Here's an example:

Shortly before we separated, she threw an iron at me, across the room.  Ruined the iron and left a dent in the wall.  She said it was because I wouldn't write her a check - it was a Sunday and I wanted to double-check my account by calling the bank - this was before I had online access - to make sure I had the money.  Later, she repeated that logic to our marriage counselor - she justified throwing an iron by saying I should have given her the check, right then, even though it she couldn't deposit it til the next day.  "I threw the iron at him because he wouldn't give me the check." - weird, twisted logic that I think the kids need to see clearly and get past.

So when D16 told me, at length, how obnoxious S14 was - and I accept that he may have been very obnoxious, though I wasn't there - I don't want her to see that as justifying unacceptable behavior on her part.  I want each kid to be responsible for what they do, no matter what the other one does.  So I don't give equal consequences - D16 hit S14, so she gets serious consequences, and S14 was (presumably) obnoxious, but that's not the same and doesn't get the same consequences.

Totally get the girl hormone driven emotionalism.  The car is a great tool to use.  "No, you can't have the car until you can be trusted not to run down pedestrials on the sidewalk because they piss you off."    When daughters emerge from their room in the morning *Like That,*  Calmly say, "Go back to your room, take 10 minutes and start your day over."  At my house, the response was always BOOHOOHOO, SLAM!  10 minutes later a sweet calm collected young lady would emerge ready for her day.

That makes sense.  Usually the mornings are good - I can't remember D16 being fussy before school.  It's after school, when they're tired - and when their mom is tired - that I think things are worst.

Boys need a different outlet for their agressions rather than picking on their sisters.  Competitive team sports, physical labor or projects where he can achieve personal success.

Yeah, I wish S14 was into sports, but he's not.  He's healthy, but nerdy.  He takes part in "Odyssey Of The Mind", a competitive team academic thing, but that's not the same as football or another way to get aggression and energy out.  He has asked me about going to the gym - there's a good one close to us, and I should go too.  Maybe we'll get memberships when I'm past a bad financial situation - a few weeks I hope.

We all have different relationships with our BPDXs, but I believe we set the example for our kids in that relationship.  I wanted my kids to be able to set firm boundaries and not be sucked into constant drama trauma.

Yeah, I think this is exactly the issue.  Their mom is pretty passive, but has a way of getting under everybody's skin and creating small dramas... .  

[david]

Matt, when we were together we tried tball, soccer, etc with now S14. He wasn't interested in anything. We then tried karate and he liked it. He has been in karate for around 7 years now and will be testing for his blackbelt soon. It helped him a lot.                                                    Our S9 is more emotional and he really had me concerned several years ago. Fortunately ex left 5 plus years ago and I honestly believe having two different houses helped him tremendously. He doesn't have the outbursts he used to have. The few times he does now I usually discover that something happened at his mom's and he was bringing to me. I stay calm and validate but I still have consequences. He is learning to temper his feelings and think things through instead of just reacting. I try to point that out to him when he does and say how mature he is behaving. Mom still has lots of problems with both boys and likes punishing with no explanation. Her punishments are often extreme for whatever they did and I don't think that is healthy for them.

[Exonerated]

Hi Matt,

What I learned from good parents and it served me well with my kids, if they were involved, it's across the board consequences for everyone.  Equal but different, and appropriate.  Nobody gets it worse because they were "badder."  They were part of the escalation and egging it on.  This prevents provocation and fosters unity between siblings.  I am big on seeing they practice apologies, repentence forgiveness, restitution and restoration of their relationships.

I very much agree with the above and would expand it just a bit. My father used a wonderfully effective method of teaching my three siblings and myself how to settle our own differences.

After a conflict between siblings, he would have us sit with him in a solemn meeting. The discussion would go something like, "you two had a conflict, and I already know more about it than I would like to know. I don't want to know the gory details, like who said what or even how it started. Instead, because you have had this conflict there are some temporary measures, for example, you are both grounded until this is resolved. Further, you two need to go off somewhere private so that no one else can hear. and work out your differences. When you have done this, you both just need to come to me and explain how you will prevent this kind of conflict in the future. Then he would explain, my goal is for you to learn how to resolve your own differences, because if I resolve them for you, a dependency will be created and you will never learn to do this yourselves."

I remember being frustrated by this approach, but in the long run it produced excellent results. I don't remember at what age, but I distinctly remember a fight breaking out, when suddenly one of us came to our senses. Whoever it was said, "stop, if we keep this up we will all be punished, so let's discuss how to resolve this now before we all get into trouble."

It is interesting that in my lifetime, even in my marriage with a BPD I always assumed it was up to me to work out conflicts. Of course none of this worked with a BPD, but the lessons have served me well in the rest of life's experiences.

Cheers,

[Matt]

Matt, when we were together we tried tball, soccer, etc with now S14. He wasn't interested in anything. We then tried karate and he liked it. He has been in karate for around 7 years now and will be testing for his blackbelt soon. It helped him a lot.                                                    Our S9 is more emotional and he really had me concerned several years ago. Fortunately ex left 5 plus years ago and I honestly believe having two different houses helped him tremendously. He doesn't have the outbursts he used to have. The few times he does now I usually discover that something happened at his mom's and he was bringing to me. I stay calm and validate but I still have consequences. He is learning to temper his feelings and think things through instead of just reacting. I try to point that out to him when he does and say how mature he is behaving. Mom still has lots of problems with both boys and likes punishing with no explanation. Her punishments are often extreme for whatever they did and I don't think that is healthy for them.

I think martial arts would be good for him - my SD23 has a black belt in tae kwon do, and she and S14 are very similar in lots of ways - but I've never been able to interest him in it.

Over the years, he's played soccer, baseball and basketball.  Not good at any of them - he's small and slow - but they were good experiences.  But at about 12, he just decided he didn't want to play sports, and I decided I won't make him.

Both kids (and SD) play the guitar.  D16 runs track and cross-country.  They're both pretty busy.  But yeah, some physical activity would probably be good for S14.  The only one he's shown interest in lately is the gym, and we can do that, when I'm better financially.

[Matt]

After a conflict between siblings, he would have us sit with him in a solemn meeting. The discussion would go something like, "you two had a conflict, and I already know more about it than I would like to know. I don't want to know the gory details, like who said what or even how it started. Instead, because you have had this conflict there are some temporary measures, for example, you are both grounded until this is resolved. Further, you two need to go off somewhere private so that no one else can hear. and work out your differences. When you have done this, you both just need to come to me and explain how you will prevent this kind of conflict in the future. Then he would explain, my goal is for you to learn how to resolve your own differences, because if I resolve them for you, a dependency will be created and you will never learn to do this yourselves."

Thanks - I like this and I think it would work for us!

[david]

I like exonerated dad's strategy. Taking it further it looks like both can work things out and if they both agree to find solutions you may want to get S14's input on whether or not D16 should be allowed to the dance or let them decide. Of course you have the ultimate veto power. This may lead to problems with their mom since you already agreed with her. However, changes in circumstances do happen in the real world and adapting to those changes is a good skill to learn too. It may help the two of them to not get into such conflicts in the future.

[Matt]

I like exonerated dad's strategy. Taking it further it looks like both can work things out and if they both agree to find solutions you may want to get S14's input on whether or not D16 should be allowed to the dance or let them decide. Of course you have the ultimate veto power. This may lead to problems with their mom since you already agreed with her. However, changes in circumstances do happen in the real world and adapting to those changes is a good skill to learn too. It may help the two of them to not get into such conflicts in the future.

Well I don't want to re-open that can of worms - the dance is a dead issue - but I think this can work for us in the future.  We haven't had these big blow-ups here, but I think it will work for smaller conflicts before they get big, and we have those small conflicts all the time... .  

[Exonerated]

There seems to be some real magic in the way this works. I was the older of the four, and so I ended up being the negotiator often. Unfortunately the only way to get an agreeable settlement was for each side to give a bit. In getting each side to give a bit, it grew into apologies for rude actions, but also according to dad's rules had to include a plan to prevent this type of conflict in the future.

When we met back with him it was a bit tough, because he was a real stickler about making sure we understood how to make the plan work in the future. The good part was, if dad liked the plan, and if we had done a really good analysis there was usually no punishment at all. So the motivation was certainly there to get it right. He always seemed to have the tough questions to cause us to think about our relationships, and about how our actions affected others.

I have four children of my own, and it worked very well with them, even with the negative input from a BPD spouse. They are all adults now, and I feel sure my grandchildren are facing the same sort of training.

[Matt]

Well my kids are pretty analytic so I think they can make this work.

[Rubies]

An issue with co-parenting with a BPD is they are simply an additional child, but with power.

I only had one child left at home at the time of divorce, but an adult DD, (painted black) is still very angry and very vocal  over how I did the United Front parenting with BPDxh.  She doesn't really remember how I jumped in the middle, advocated, protected and softened the BS before the Laws were Mandated.  She only remembers that I was in agreement with his blown out of perportion unfairness.

She doesn't remember I made sure her siblings faced the same (softened) consequences as she, according to my rules, not BPD rules.

Group dynamics.  The Tattler is often the Instigator, not the Victim.  The one caught in the Crime was probably set up by the Quiet Brain.  He who cries first probably started it.  Unless it involves blood, broken bones and requires a trip to ER, work it out.  Yes, I would separate them, put them on different sides of the property with the "No Fly Zone" down the middle.  They couldn't stand it.  They'd run down the back hill and play nice together out of my sight.

Matt, you said yes, your son is "obnoxious" he needs to work on that, but "she hit him and that's unacceptable."    The question I have, if any other person behaved as he does toward your daughter, would it be considered bullying?

[Matt]

An issue with co-parenting with a BPD is they are simply an additional child, but with power.

Yes, and I've experienced that.  But now I don't "co-parent".  I parent.  I rarely deal with my ex.  I focus on parenting the kids.

This situation is an unusual one, for me, because Ex reached out to ask my help in following through on the consequence for D16, and she took the time to explain to me what had gone on.  I'm taking that at face value, mostly because what the kids told me pretty much lined up with what she said.

The question I have, if any other person behaved as he does toward your daughter, would it be considered bullying?

Good question, but I'm not sure I can answer it, because I wasn't there.

From D16's description, his verbal behavior went pretty far;  or at least D16 felt that it was just too much for her to cope with.  But I can't say for sure whether it was "bullying".  I'm pretty sure it was not the way I expect him to act in my home.  But I'm reluctant to impose consequences on him, because I didn't see it, and because it didn't happen in my home, and because Ex didn't impose any consequences on him, and because he stopped short of hitting.

I don't want to say, "It's OK to say anything as long as you don't hit.", but to impose consequences for words, I'd want to make sure those words were clearly over the line.  (And I haven't been clear about where that line is, up til now.  But that can change.)