settlement conference

[nona]

1 1/2 years post separation, we are in a tiny village and share 50/50 custody,

STBUBPDX has hammered me with stacks and stacks of crazy demanding unreasonable unequitable innaccurate and often accusing "negotiations"by  email all this time as I try to be as NC as possible.

Our divorce trial date in April is looming.

Pre trial hearings scheduled in Feb. etc. etc.

Now STBUBPDX wants to "negotiate"

we will be with our 2 lawyers for 2 days

A year ago, I was able to  visualize a nice happy post divorce situation for our DD10 real positive, paralell/co-parenting

But Once I admitted how soul damaging he is and how it WAS jurassic PArk in the home with him... .  

I focused on preparing myself for custody trial.

I have so many defenses up, I am having  a hard time shifting my head space to anything but def-com one again.

Many here say dont negotiate.

Just go to trial. It will be an added expense if the "negotiation" just a circus with him.

But dont I need to "show good faith" ?

It seems showing good faith is what kept me in the crazy relationship for so long and now we know where that got me!

So I am having a hard time getting into a positive /realistic negotiation mindset.

Our daughter has of course not only being alienated against me since the separation, but her whole life.

In her best interest I have to do what I can. It seems the best I can do According to attorney is

relocate to the next biggest town.

let him have joint custody on paper

be grateful if i can get her off the 50/50 access time and use the increased contact time  (NORMAL)  to help her heal up.

I am offering to stay in the boondocks  still, (near her father for frequent access and visitation) which is a huge compromise but in a bigger village where we will have some anonimity, and many more resources for us both and he will have less control.

Ideally DD and I would remain International citizens as Americans in Canada, travelling frequently attending to our lives and communities in both countries as we have done all her life, but BPDX has managed to trap us here in isolatoin and DD falsl under the hague convention.

Virtually ALL our family, our spiritual community, and most of our friends are IN THE US.

We had life in both places until he isolated us in CAnada, groomed his porn addiction and bullied the life  out of all of us



and continuing shared custody and be grateful for increased

[ForeverDad]

Many here say don't negotiate.

Just go to trial. It will be an added expense if the "negotiation" just a circus with him.

But don't I need to "show good faith" ?

It seems showing good faith is what kept me in the crazy relationship for so long and now we know where that got me!

So I am having a hard time getting into a positive /realistic negotiation mindset.

No, you do negotiate.  Or at least be willing to do so.  Show that willingness.  But what we stress here is that you mustn't feel you have to walk out with an agreement.  Most of us do try mediation, we can then know and state later that we really did try, but we also realize that successful mediation depends upon TWO people actually negotiating.  Sadly, ex likely won't really negotiate until he HAS to, until the clock has run out, no more delays or tactics are left and Trial Day is looming.  (My ex delayed my divorce case as much as she could partly because she's entitled and obstructive and partly because the temp order was favorable to her.  We tried ordered mediation, it failed after a couple hours.  We tried an ordered settlement conference with the lawyers, it lasted about 5 minutes before she threatened to claw my eyes out if I sought custody and that ended that.  It took 2 years to struggle through the court's checklist of events.  Then when no other delays were possible, ex agreed to settle - on Trial Morning a few minutes before trial!)

You have up to 2 days with 2 lawyers.  If negotiations get stuck as often happens, just state, I made sincere effort to negotiate, I did try, it didn't work, so let's move on to court.  Generally, what the court decides is no worse and often better than the terms and conditions the disordered ex would dictate.

Beware that the mediator doesn't think that since ex is unreasonable then let's try to get mother to bend on everything.  An inexperienced or incompetent mediator might try to get success by pressuring the reasonable parent to give in because the other isn't bending.

It seems the best I can do according to attorney is relocate to the next biggest town.

let him have joint custody on paper

be grateful if i can get her off the 50/50 access time and use the increased contact time  (NORMAL)  to help her heal up.

Your attorney is trying to push for a settlement where both parents give in.  Court will likely favor something like that.  If you settle, settle for nothing less.  Remember, court wants you to settle, every step of the process is designed to result in settlement rather than a court trial or decision, but you most certainly don't have to 'settle' for terms you feel would be worse than what the court would decide.

I am offering to stay in the boondocks  still, (near her father for frequent access and visitation) which is a huge compromise but in a bigger village where we will have some anonymity, and many more resources for us both and he will have less control.

Ideally DD and I would remain International citizens as Americans in Canada, travelling frequently attending to our lives and communities in both countries as we have done all her life, but BPDX has managed to trap us here in isolation and DD falsely under the Hague convention.

Yes, any agreement or court decision should not restrict you from freely traveling between your two countries.  Also, beware of agreements where you are restricted where you can live for the next 7-8 years.  Yes, some orders limit the distance you can move without the court's approval.  Some say 50 or 100 miles so the child isn't too far away from the other parent.  But the reality is that parents do move, sometimes across the country, courts do deal with things like that.  Often in cases like that they allow the disadvantaged parent to have more time while the child is out of school for winter break, spring break and summer vacation.  What if you can't find work or get an offer elsewhere?  What if you remarry and your spouse lives elsewhere?  At least leave open the option that sometime down the road you can expand your residence options.  But you may first need to build up a history of majority time parenting before you can do that.

We had life in both places until he isolated us in Canada

Never stop using that valid point.  Every time he or his lawyer pushes that daughter lives where she is, in his country, then you must respond that before separation it was far different, the Real History is that daughter lived in both countries with frequent travel/residence in your country.

[tog]

My SO has now had two trial dates set and his stbxw has waited until trial morning to settle for both. In the most recent one, they all went into the courtroom, the judge gave his lecture about how hard a custody trial is on a kid, the GAL said SS13 told him that he "likes the schedule the way it is" (50/50-she wanted 100% custody), stbxw started to cry, the lawyers went in chambers with the judge and everyone agreed to settle.

The first time, she settled as well on trial morning, though in that case she filed two months later for sole custody, leading to this most recent trial. She simply holds out until it's very clear she is not going to get what she wants, but then she tries again. The lawyers and judge clearly want it all to settle (his lawyer said his wife asked him, "Why are you always preparing for trial but never going to trial?".

We prepared as if a trial was going to happen. We have another potential trial (that will lead to settlement) in April. It's exhausting, but with each step, I think she begins to realize she is not going to get 100% custody, no matter how much lying and alienating she does. And the time benefits my SO.

[Matt]

Two days?

That's ridiculous.  Both lawyers are just looking to run up their bills.

First, there should be no meeting without a proposal on the table.  It would be best if it comes from the other side, but if you want to make a proposal based on the guidelines where you live, that could be good too.

The point is to have something specific on the table to discuss.  "Your Point 1 is OK.  Point 2 we think should be changed from 'Blah blah blah' to 'Yada yada yada'."  Etc.

Sitting in a room, paying two lawyers for their time, with nothing specific on the table, is a very expensive waste of time.

Your lawyer should know the basics of negotiation.  Either he doesn't - which means he is not a good lawyer for you - or he knows better and he's ripping you off.

[david]

I went to a mediation with my ex several years ago. I was prepared to negotiate but I had certain things that I would not budge on because I thought it was best for the kids. We never got to those points because ex just kept changing her mind on trivial stuff. She also liked accusing me about things that didn't happen. I think the mediator got it. After about three hours I stood up and said thank you but nothing is being accomplished here. We had a court date the next day. The mediator called several hours later and said she believed things would work out tomorrow. Apparently ,ex stayed there and the mediator and her worked things out. We went to court the next day and everything I proposed at the mediation became the ex's stand in court. We settled quickly. My ex enjoys fighting (or whatever you want to call it) and she must win so her completely changing her tune in court the next day gave her a win because she portrayed me as the unreasonable one and demanded everything I proposed the day before.

[nona]

matt-

it IS a great expense as I have to pay for LODGING AND AIR FLIGHT and a car for my atty

could we do it back and  forth email style?

avoiding UBPDH and me in the same room?

the other 2 times we were scheduled in court he did not appear,

first time BPDH had his atty settle on the courthouse stairs

the second time while lawyers and I were in chambers BPDH  "needed Judge  to wait 7 minutes for UBPDX to change phones" !


it would be much cheaper to avoid a circus. especially at my lawyers fees

I'M sure motivated to settle, soo tired.

[Matt]

It's sensible to want to settle - less stress and probably less cost.

But the way to get a settlement is not to have all the parties gather, without any plan or preparation.

You're right, it could probably be done by e-mail.  Or at least much of it could be done by e-mail.  If you get it mostly done, but there are some difficult and complicated issues, then a face-to-face meeting might make sense.  But it should start with one side or the other making a proposal.

If the sides are far apart, you go to trial.  If you're pretty close, you keep working toward a settlement.

Talk to your attorney.  Ask about his experience, especially in dealing with opposing parties who have psychological disorders.  Try to understand if he knows what he's doing - if he has some basic negotiation skills and a plan for your case - or if he's just taking you for a ride.

Frankly, I can't see how this approach makes any sense, especially if he has to fly in.  I bet you could find a better attorney locally - someone who could do a better job cheaper.

[nona]

I already had a local attorney, but my BPDH is 1 of 2 docs  in the community.

it took me forever to find her because NOBODY would take my case

but SHE was not really representing me   so I had to go out of town to find someone who would take my case and travel.

I am in  such a provencial backward political small town consciousness,

when I fled to a domestic violence shelter in the nearest town 1 1/2 hour drive, with our daughter for safety and had our computers in the car, because he told me he was addicted to watching porn at work; they told me... .  

"your husband is who?"

You cannot do this you cannot stay here,

Your best bet is you better go home and make nice

and get those computers hooked back up

so he doesnt have know what you have done."

when he was psychotic for months I tried to go to his colleague, the board, community elders, they all turned on me.

when i read the boards about how we will really need our friends and family I cry, because I walk this gauntlet alone. all my friends are poor americans who cannot travel to support me and go figure mom is BPD. i am not exaggerating.

that is how good his distortion campaign has worked.

YOU would not believe how isolated a person could get in this situation.

so i cant just run out and change attorneys... .  the locals are all in th good old boy network with him.

our trial would be in the same town as the dv shelter.

[Matt]

Well if you can't change attorneys, you might have to fix the one you have.

Ask her what her plan is.  Then ask about options, like getting a proposal from the other side, or making a proposal.  Tell her you don't want the expense of a meeting til you're sure everything possible has been done by phone and e-mail.

The way it usually works is:

* One side makes a proposal which is more-or-less in line with the court's guidelines

* The other side responds - maybe they accept the proposal and you're done (not likely), or maybe they make a very different counter-proposal, or maybe they accept parts of what you offered but want some changes to other parts.

* You list the issues where you aren't in agreement.  It may be helpful to list them from smallest to biggest.

* Then try to work out some of the issues.  Usually it's best to focus first on the smallest issues so you can have some successes and build momentum.  See how many can be worked out.

* Then you have some issues left that are more difficult.  Maybe you do some research to bring new information to the table.  Look for "win/win" solutions - ways to meet both sides' most important needs.

* Finally you're left with a few really tough issues.  This is when it makes sense to meet face-to-face.  Be creative - come at each issue from as many different perspectives as possible.

* If you can't resolve those issues, you go to trial - but just on those issues, not on all the ones you've settled.

It seems that your attorney is skipping the first few steps and going right to the face-to-face meeting, which is the most expensive approach.  You would prefer to avoid that completely, or maybe keep it to a single day.

Or... .  "face-to-face" can mean Skype or GoToMeeting, or some other computer method.  Much cheaper than traveling.

Tell your lawyer, "I can't afford a two-day in-person meeting at this time.  Let's try every other approach, starting with asking them for a proposal, or making one ourselves."

You shouldn't have to teach your attorney the basics of negotiation, but I think many attorneys have never learned how to negotiate, and it seems you're stuck with her, so you'll have to have a frank discussion with her about the steps.  Don't go right to the most expensive method - do everything that is practical by phone/e-mail/Skype first.

[nona]

Thanks so Much for That!

That is what I have been mulling over .

Normal appropriate steps to negotiations.


A friend suggested UBPDX pay for negotiations 

and I will start working firmly on my lawyer in the morning.

[tog]

The first time my SO and his stbxw came to a settlement, in July, it took most of that day and the next because it happened trial morning and neither had any plan worked out ahead of time.  She filed for sole custody two months later which re-opened it.

So they went to trial and settled again on trial morning. This time it took an hour because they already had all the major issues settled and a court order written.

My guess is that he is trying to wear you down financially and make you give in. He also probably wants to see you squirm in the process. I agree with your friend... .  if he wants a two day settlement conference, he can pay for it. Otherwise, both sides write down what they want in the settlement and start from there with the lawyers. 

Chances are you will have to go to trial anyway, with his entitlement issues.  What a tough situation you are in. 

[nona]

Leaving UBPDX was like leaving a newborn, we were that enmeshed, and he was THAT enabled, for 10 years.

After locking me out of most  of our computer data in his porn hiding spree, like our music and recipes;

he writes occasionally asking me for whichever "recipe". ( he HAS all the RECIPES, and the passwords)



I think in our immaturity we both believed I/my love had the answers, the "recipe" to fix the pain/insanity.

The way he worded the negotiation request was like him asking for the recipe.

Like the 5 year old saying "would you please just write the parenting plan and divorce?"

20 years ago i wrote and exectued an equitable divorce and parenting plan with my first nonh , and he knows this.


So I will write a fair and equitable parenting plan with our dd best interests considered.

He has alot to lose , more than I , and alot of shame to endure if we proceed with a trial.

Im hoping his intelligence, self preservation and damage control needs will override his control needs, they are there.

MAybe him agreeing on the court steps and avoiding trial is the best I could hope for .

That is such a common pattern with our disorderd.

Is he in child mode needing me to write a good plan or just turfing the work to me?

[Matt]

That sounds like a good opportunity.

You can write the parenting plan and the divorce settlement - it will be a lot of work, but you can decide what you think will be best.

If the other side wants any changes, they can ask by e-mail.  You can decide if the changes are sensible and fair.

There may not be a need for a settlement conference.  Just make the changes you think are fair, and say, "That's that.  Or we go to trial."

[nona]

I'm soo grateful for your responses, advice, validation and support.

I have been suffering doing this in serious isolation.

For so long, my posts barely made sense I was so shocked.

Thanks for being here.

Have a nice MONDAY.

[ForeverDad]

Write TWO settlement agreements.  Likely your first impulse is to write one being overly fair, etc.  Fine, write that.  Then set that aside, hold it in confidential reserve as your baseline for later reference.  Write another with some additional things even more in your favor.  This is the one to start with.  Why?  He will look to chip away at whatever terms you come up with.  If you start with your "best and fairest" offer, and he chips away at it, you're going to lose all the fairness you had put into it.

A good negotiator (no, I'm not all that good, I just know the general principle) will not start out and walk in with the terms and conditions he/she expects to walk out with.  You have to hold some things back or ask for extra things at the start so you have something to give back and so the other thinks you 'lost' and the other 'won'.  Starting out asking for 'extra' is so hard for us Nice Guys and Nice Gals since we almost pathologically need to be so darn 'fair', but we have to do it knowing our adversary has no concept of what fairness means or at least doesn't care to honor it and probably sees it as weakness.

[nona]

Good idea,  Foreverdad !

OMG THings have flipped here.

Ya know we are  in Canada and we are all Americans.

I just spent the last 2 days in the village my lawyer thinks I am wiling to move to ... .  because I have been afraid the judge or UBPDH will make me stay here.

Well, the town was so small, so drab, (janusry in the mountains) housing prices are double normal etc. etc.

So I decided I have to TRY to go to the states.

I have been partly paralyzed at leaving.

Im afraid to lose our health care. it rawks and Im over 50.

That has been one fear. but the isolation has convinced me friends and family are better than health insurance and siolation.

I cannot stay here without at least tryong to go to the US.

I have been AFRAID of UBPDH saying "no".

last night I  hinted around about court to DD and she tells me

"im not staying here or in that other small town. I hate that school you like there, it is just not me. Im an american, and Ive told daddy I want to go home to the US if you move, and he said ok."

I have lawyer appointment later this morning and Im gonna insist we start with the plan of me going to the US with DD.

and offer the same number of days he would have on a EOW schedule.

DD has been so alienated from me for so long.

I was afraid she was gonna be resistant as well, and he would use her to keep me here.

DD has been Talking about her "abuse" in the group counseling at school LOL !

He  raced to do  damage control with the school counselor that week.

UBPDX writes a long letter about it to lawyers because DD is mad.

DD says "I am mad because I have to choose between who is telling the truth."

UBPDH's letter includes how UBPDH "explained" to DD he lied about some things but not others.

The lawyer was all over THAT!

Cant believe UBPDX told child he has been lying for 10 years to mama !

It really has been too much for DD as he dumps way too much on her.

this shows in many e mails.



Hois anonimity is crumbling, and his girlfriend in his 3 way relationship, is pREGNANT.

Ive heard of some of his patients told him he needs to "tone it down in tinytown" LOL !

I am so excited about the possibility of going "home"

I suppose the judge could still make me stay in CAnada.

I wonder how child support enforcement works over borders?

The child support canadian dollars would go way further in the us. !

[tog]

In our case, SO, stbx and SS are all Canadians living in America. There is an order stating neither of them can move out of the county without the court's permission, but then again, neither of them want to, and my guess is that would be amended if one of them needed to move back to Canada.

I know the US and Canada have a compact regarding CS, so I'm sure that's not too hard to negotiate.

Sounds like your DD is starting to resent her father a bit and open up to you. We are finding that with SS13 too. The pressure wears on them and the alienating parent starts to get some backlash.

[nona]

THAT IS GOOD NEWS.

One of my fears has been losing my groovy health care and  clean environment.

But I just realized, buying me health  care will be part of my divorce package out of non taxable dollars.

also thinking of getting our citizenship and canadian passports before we leave. I suffered enough for it.

these might be unhealthy hooks for me... .  

have an appointment with lawyer, and tell him of my change of plans on relocation.

wish me luck

[BentNotBroken]

Get the dual citizenship for both of you. After DD is grown, you can travel more freely and you can utilize the healthcare if you need it in your golden years. Win-win. Not to mention that you & your daughter can visit more parts of the world as "Canadians" than you can with just US citizenship.

[Rose1]

Good idea = options are always good to have.

And think of the divorce as gaining you health 

[BentNotBroken]

Another thought-Getting dual citizenship and passports for the two of you may look better to the court in that you are looking out for the "best interests of your child" and obviously "taking steps to facilitate travel back and forth to Canada", so that DD's father is not completely cut out of DD's life. Whether or not you actually return is to be determined at a later date.

I know some folks that have kept their dual citizenship their entire lives, and it has made their later years much more pleasant.

[tog]

Yes, by all means, get the dual citizenship. And health care in the US should be easier to get in the next year or so with the changes in the law that making purchasing plans more affordable, depending, of course, on which state you live in.

If you have the dual citizenship, as someone else said, moving back to Canada for the health care becomes a possibility.