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Author Topic: More specific information on brain function and BPD  (Read 970 times)
lbjnltx
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« on: January 19, 2013, 07:29:32 PM »

Here is a link to a recent study on brain activity and BPD:

www.psychcentral.com/news/2013/01/16/imaging-study-maps-brain-activity-in-borderline-personality-disorder/50427.html

I found this on the blog site that runs at the top of the page... .  if you haven't ever visited the blog site... .  consider it.

 
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« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2013, 08:04:41 PM »

Interesting read.  Maybe learning that there is a difference in the brain for those with BPD they will one day be able to figure out different treatments. 

Thanks for posting.
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« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2013, 08:18:04 PM »

Certainly interesting.

I have also seen studies linking BPD (and other PD's) to hormonal dysregulation. Particularly the hypothalamus/thyroid/adrenal axis (google "BPD ASPD hormones" for more info). Hormones are a "closed system"--not that easy to influence. Plus, hormonal systems aren't developed at birth--they continue to develop for several years (we all know about "teenagers and hormones"--or even premenopausal women and hormones!)

Inherited hormonal imbalances or issues that cause over taxing/stress on adrenals during development phases can be overlooked and therefore difficult to correct.
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« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2013, 08:09:07 AM »

lbjnitx,

Thank you for posting this link, corroborating theories of neural differences in pwBPD. 

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« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2013, 05:22:47 PM »

An excellent article on an interesting site, thanks.

The good news is that we can change our mechanisms within the brain. Just as we can teach ourselves to different things - learning a language, writing with the opposite hand and so on. This means that a 'mindfulness' therapy such as DBT can bring about permanent improvement in pwBPD.

My logic therefore tells me that as parents we should be working on our own 'mindfulness' therapy, so we know what our children need to do to help themselves.

If we expect our children to change, then we should be willing to do so ourselves, no?

Vivek    
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« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2013, 05:39:45 PM »

An excellent article on an interesting site, thanks.

The good news is that we can change our mechanisms within the brain. Just as we can teach ourselves to different things - learning a language, writing with the opposite hand and so on. This means that a 'mindfulness' therapy such as DBT can bring about permanent improvement in pwBPD.

My first ... .  "I wonder" thought was about neurofeedback therapy... .  knowing which areas of the brain to stimulate to achieve a balance in activity.

My logic therefore tells me that as parents we should be working on our own 'mindfulness' therapy, so we know what our children need to do to help themselves.

If we expect our children to change, then we should be willing to do so ourselves, no?

YES!

Vivek    [/quote]
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« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2013, 05:54:25 PM »

what's neurofeedback therapy? It sounds ugly  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

does it mean linking our brains to machines? A good way to 'prove' diagnosis perhaps, but I am wary of treatments that require expensive solutions. 'Mindfulness' just needs willing long term commitment from those around you - and probably a good therapist to get it all happening.

waddaya reckon?

Vivek    

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« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2013, 06:10:30 PM »

what's neurofeedback therapy? It sounds ugly  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

does it mean linking our brains to machines? A good way to 'prove' diagnosis perhaps, but I am wary of treatments that require expensive solutions. 'Mindfulness' just needs willing long term commitment from those around you - and probably a good therapist to get it all happening.

waddaya reckon?

Vivek    

Neurofeedback therapy... .  my d did this when she came home from rtc... .  not too expensive... .  actually less than a regular therapy session.  Machine that reads brain activity in targeted areas that translates the info to a computer program.  The brain controls the program.  For example, the program is pack man... .  the more your brain is functioning at the targeted capacity the faster the pack man eats the dots... .  proven affective treatment for many disorders... .  used more and more commonly for add/adhd.

lbj
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« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2013, 07:57:29 PM »

that sounds really interesting... .  but I do like the values based stuff in 'mindfulness' - maybe we could have both? Or then, maybe those who don't think they have BPD could accept what the machine says?

It reminds me of an English comedy show where an old harridan (a man dressed as a woman) working in an office would respond to all questions with: 'computer says no!'

ok, weird comedy, but funny to those who don't try to make sense of it... .  

viv   
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« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2013, 08:14:57 PM »

I'm all for whatever works in any combination!

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« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2013, 09:17:10 PM »

Thanks for  this. I've been off the board for a year. In that time I've been through a lot and one thing that has come out is that both my step sons come up with abnormal EEG Readings. One ss15 has been diagnosed pdd-nos and bipolar among other things. The other ss10 is being called emerging bipolar but he is all BPD.  (Like his BPD mom) Anyway Ss10 has been on lamictal for almost a year with almost immediate difference in his concentration and regulation. We've also done behavior therapy with his brother 8 and continued his regular therapy with psych and now psychiatrist.

So since lamictal is an anti-epilepsy drug that is effective with borderlines it is not surprising to me that researchers are looking to the brain. When I was told by a neuropsych last year that then 9 yo SS was too young to dx as borderline and most BPD start out  as abused last year I was annoyed. Studies like this give me hope that there can be some more effective therapies for kids unfortunate enough to inherit these traits.

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« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2013, 03:28:26 PM »

DoubleAries,

You mention hormones being involved. My dd has diagnosed PCOS. We tried originally to get this regulated to help with the depression etc but w/o much success. But thyroid problems do run in our family. Dd has had thyroid checked a couple of times with tests coming out good. But I was told by someone the thyroid could still be a problem even if tests say otherwise and that thyroid problem can mimic depression symptoms. Has me thinking of trying a natural supplement for thyroid support just in case. All this info is good. Helps me think outside the box. Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2013, 03:39:40 PM »

hey there, I don't know so much about medical issues, but once a Dr told me to keep an eye on my thyroid and that Iodine was important for it. Iodine was always added to our salt here in Aust and then we got all trendy with all sorts of different boutique salts and also miminised the use of salt, so now I don't really use that Iodised salt. But prawns do have a lot of iodine - so I use eating prawns as an excuse to help my thyroid   

happy prawn eating,

Vivek   Being cool (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2013, 09:56:02 PM »

Hi !  Re: Neurofeedback therapy.  I'm in the middle of it now and I am really benefitting from it.  When I was first brain-mapped, the maps indicated extreme anxiety with a danger of self-harm.  Then my mother died and my BPD daughter ( her granddaughter) refused to even talk to me or let me visit my granddaughters who did talk to me and they were crying and brokenhearted but my BPDd still refused to let them see me.  I thought i would die of a broken-heart. 

But the neuro is really easing my anxiety and helping my coping skills, enormously.  I've read "Walking on Eggshells".  But the best thing I've  read  is "The Power of Now" by Eckhardt Tolle.

On Easter Sunday my oldest granddaughter texted me that she wanted to see me so bad and that she loves me and misses me.  I haven't seen her or her sister for 2 years.  I was so happy and we made plans to get my co-dependent SIL to bring the girls to see me. 

So,  just about an hour ago my BPDd texted me to stop texting "her daughters" and ORDERED me not to reply.  But I did.  I asked, " Please. Can't we work this out together?"  And she texted back that she was nothing to me and that if I continued trying to contact her (?)  she would take legal action... .  

So, that's how my evening has gone... .   without the neurofeedback and therapy,  I couldn't handle this.  But I'm able to stand outside of my feelings and be the "watcher" .  It still hurts but my BPDd is just being so crazy right now, I can't feel too hurt.  My main concern is for my granddaughters being subjected to her.  They've already spent 7 years while she was addicted to Vicodin and I and my mom and my SIL's mom had to take care of them.  I ache for them, I really do. 

But I recommend the neurofeedback.  It's a largely permanent, non-medicated solution for any number of issues.
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« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2013, 04:35:09 AM »

nerofeedback sounds interesting and if it helps us stand back from the pain we are feeling, and manage those difficult times, then I suspect it's a very good thing.

marcime, it is so hard to stand by and watch and worry. That your grandchildren know that you love them and are there for them is a lifeline for them. They will always have that knowledge and nothing can take that away. When their hurt is hard or them, they have that to recall and help them feel better. As a daughter of a uBPD mum, I could find ways to manage, but for them to know that there is someone who has only your interests at heart must be a source of strength to them. Your pain is a result of your powerlessness it seems to me, and perhaps you can't see the comfort that you are already.

take care marcine,

Vivek    
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« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2013, 07:47:09 PM »

Thank you, Vivek ananda.  Your words are so encouraging.  I'm learning to be optimistic about all of this.  It's very hard, but every time I start to worry or ruminate, I recite my mantra of my grandchildren's names with "Love" and I imagine light and love emanating from my heart to theirs.

I also send love to my BPDd and sil in hopes it will do some good, eventually.  I'm trying to surround myself with positive energy hoping that I will also attract positive energy in return. 

Thanks again.  : )
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« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2013, 10:37:51 PM »

lbj - this is my favorite part of the article:

“Given that many of the most effective psychotherapies for borderline personality disorder work to improve emotion regulation skills, these findings could suggest that dysfunctions in critical frontal ‘control’ centers might be normalized after successful treatment,” concluded Ruocco.

Adding the neurofeedback sounds like a great combination with the DBT. My understanding of DBT leads me to think it helps with the emotional dysregulation - managing this, yet the interpersonal distress deep inside is still there - the aloneness. Wonder if the neurofeedback helps with this part?

qcr  
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« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2013, 05:43:29 AM »

In my d's case, the neurofeedback targeted the impulsivity.  Success there.

If the impulsivity is curbed then it is possible that there were less reckless acts to feel shame about later, cover up, or apologize for.  It is feasible that this could result in improved self image.  Increased self image impacts all aspects of self.

Just theorizing here. Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2013, 05:12:50 PM »

How I see it adds to that ... .  

I think that pwBPD have different 'realities' than we do. Theirs is based on a distorted perception of the world through their emotional distress. So, as they learn to change their behaviours, subsequently they change their thinking and their views of the world begin to alter also. While they may still have times when the 'bad old' ways of seeing things would impinge, they are able though to engage their 'rational' mind better and understand that this is then a distorted view. That is my hope for my dd.

Now I see this as a possibility for someone like my dd, but there are others on the BPD continuum whose experiences are more severe; perhaps compounded by co morbidity of other conditions, or compounded with drug abuse, physical illness, or with experiences that are hard to recover from. While I would still hold out hope that they could also fundamentally change, it would likely be more challenging.

I continue to try to 'fundamentally' change myself - change those personality traits that impede my better self - by rebuilding neural pathways to create a 'default response' different to my old ways of responding. This means coming to grips with my own existential angst. My emotions are the result of how I experience the world, a result of my interactions with the world. If I have control of my mind, I have control of how I experience my emotions. They may still be there, but how I see and feel them can be different. This is what I thought the dialectic was in behaviour therapy... .   ?

hmmm?

Viv   

ps I am now going to look for a definition of that word!
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« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2013, 08:46:37 PM »

I got a peek into this when I read the "Buddha and the Borderline". The author had done all the DBT etc. and could practice all the skills, but was still so very empty in her life. The book is about the ways her life path gave her support in coming to terms with this. Finding some peace with it, is how it seemed to me.

The first step is GETTING TREATMENT of some kind. DD turns to pot and other substances (she hates it when I use that word) and really dysfunctional friends. Her NLD puts some limits on her abilities I think. The non-verbal learning inhabits the same areas of the brain that may be impacted by BPD. Double whamy for her.

I struggle to understand mindfulness sometimes. As a balance point that joins the emotions and the thinking together in the moment to enable our actions to take the direction we desire.  I think the words "to control" confuse me. For me it is more about "to be", as I accept that I do not control the environment around me or even inside me, that may be driving the emotions that need to be managed by my thinking.  It is a "top-down" and "bottom-up" process that happens in nano-seconds in our brains and bodies. Much of the "bottom-up" part is outside our conscious awareness until it collides with the "top-down" impact.

I could try to describe this, based on my reading of mostly "Brain Based Parenting", in all those scientific brainoloy words. That really just makes me want to get my dictionary out to set beside me. But that is where this line of pondering is trickling down from.

Make any sense?

qcr  

Ok, let me give this a try in 'layman's brainology language'. Our body (gut, heart/lungs) connect to our limbic system (emotions) -- ie. bottom-up flow of neuro information. Our mind, in the prefrontal lobes of our brain, has the duty to manage the responses to the limbic system ie. top-down flow of neuro information. There is a bridge between the two that sometimes doesn't work well -- then our actions become more reflexes based on pure driven emotion.

So this article is talking about the over active emotions not being very well modulated by the under active mind -- and BPD patterns result.  Makes so much sense to me.
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« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2013, 07:59:27 PM »

It all makes sense qcr.

This is my way of seeing it - since I thought some more about it... .   and me being me, it is informed by what I understand from elsewhere... .   , who I am... .  

I like the symbol of yin and yang, two waving hemispheres in one whole circle. This is how I explain the dialectic of DBT (as I understand it) to myself. One hemisphere is our behaviour, our actions - the other is our thinking. These hemispheres interact to influence and ultimately change each other (to make the circle spin... .   Smiling (click to insert in post)) .

So, as we don't need to have our thinking changed before we change our behaviour, neither do we have to change our behaviour before we change our thinking, but the two work on each other leading us to change. So, for me, beginning to practice validation on strangers, created an effect that lead me to think that maybe this validation stuff works, which lead to more effort, more learning about validation etc etc. Then the learning about validation lead me back to the concept of 'detachment' and letting go of ego - which influenced my understanding of acceptance. And when I consciously connect with the universe... .   there is constant interaction in my hemispheres to cause my circle to spin (and my head too sometimes  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post))

I am reading a novel "Fugitive Pieces" (non BPD and highly recommended by me). It says: '... .   some are motivated by love (those who choose), most are motivated by fear (those who choose by not choosing)'.

I choose to create the sort of person I want to be. That's why I say (in a part of my 'mantra): I am not my mind, I am that which controls my mind; I am not my emotions, I am that which feels my emotions... .  

I choose to be motivated by best wishes, not fear. And it is the love that connects me to my universe and all that it means to me. It is not the love that I use to say to dd eg, I love you - that is an expression of my emotion. This is the love that Jesus refers to in the gospel: love one another, as thyself, for the love of me. And for me that extends not to just people but to the 'universe' and all that it means to me.

When you talk about the scientific neural pathways stuff, that makes sense too of course. It is another way of saying the same thing that I have, I believe, except it is 'scientific evidence' based language. Neither is more correct than the other - just different, I think.

YES! For my dd the one boundary we would have if she was ever to live at home again, would be that she actively engaged in treatment - a very different set of circumstances to where you are at. But, I am not concerned here about the treatment of my dd, I am quite self focussed. These understandings are to inform my 'treatment'. So I can be the sort of mother she would want to have. And, so I can be the sort of person I want to be. I cannot expect my dd to undertake treatment, if I wasn't actively engaged in my own form of treatment myself. I did not cause her BPD, I am not at fault but I could have done better and I intend to do so if given another chance. I need to take care of myself, this is how I am doing it at the moment... .   thinking out loud here 

waddaya reckon?

Viv     (one for you reader, one for the world and one for me  )
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« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2013, 08:28:00 PM »

So I looked up a dictionary definition of dialectic and it wasn't so helpful... .   but this link explores the concept in relation to DBT beautifully:

what does dialectical mean?

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« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2013, 05:02:27 PM »

I like the symbol of yin and yang, two waving hemispheres in one whole circle. This is how I explain the dialectic of DBT (as I understand it) to myself. One hemisphere is our behaviour, our actions - the other is our thinking. These hemispheres interact to influence and ultimately change each other (to make the circle spin... .   Smiling (click to insert in post)) .

So, as we don't need to have our thinking changed before we change our behaviour, neither do we have to change our behaviour before we change our thinking, but the two work on each other leading us to change. So, for me, beginning to practice validation on strangers, created an effect that lead me to think that maybe this validation stuff works, which lead to more effort, more learning about validation etc etc. Then the learning about validation lead me back to the concept of 'detachment' and letting go of ego - which influenced my understanding of acceptance. And when I consciously connect with the universe... .   there is constant interaction in my hemispheres to cause my circle to spin (and my head too sometimes  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post))

Vivek  - where is do the emotions live in this - somewhere in the tiny space between yin and yang? Somehow emotions give us the fire for action - to react or respond. Perhaps the tension between the dialectics is where the emotions fit in. How does DBT explain this question? How does our spritual belief system explain this question? I am excited to hear your ideas on this question.

qcr

I am troubled lately by not remembering so many things that I know I should know that I have known before - faces, words, places. Kind of scary. Maybe I am just too tired for now. hoping my new T can help me find my place again.
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« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2013, 08:17:34 PM »

I am troubled lately by not remembering so many things that I know I should know that I have known before - faces, words, places. Kind of scary. Maybe I am just too tired for now. hoping my new T can help me find my place again.

I would be surprised if you didn't have brain fatigue. Like when a computer overheats... .     Again, please take care of yourself. You have so much on your plate, take some time out for yourself please. Slow down, be calm, be balanced and centre yourself. Put your feet solidly on the ground and imagine the energy of the earth passing up into you through your feet. Cut out anything that is not basic and essential to your care. If you fall down, so do your loved ones. Pace yourself, please.

This is how I am thinking... .  

Now in my Yin and Yang symbol, one hemisphere is for emotions, one is for thinking (so, don't think of Yin and Yang or male and female or anything else, just: thinking and emotion). So imagine the circle turning slowly to start with... .   the black hemisphere starts to blend in with the white hemisphere - the emotions influence how we think, the white hemisphere begins to blend in with the black - and how we think influences the emotions. As the circle turns, the 'colours' influence each other until they achieve a unified whole. The hemispheres become one whole, influencing and interacting with each other. This is just a representation to symbolise what I think happens.

When we detach, we are able to slow down that circle to see the interaction within ourselves. When we detach we observe ourselves and make the necessary adjustment. Perhaps out emotions are dominating our responses, so we can improve our thinking to regain balance within our circle. Maybe our thinking has become dominant and we need to reconnect emotionally to achieve better balance.

DBT, as I understand it, encourages practices designed to help us recognise our emotional needs and how to use our logical brain at times of emotional intensity. DBT encourages us to change the way we do things (eg in relationships... .   ) it helps us recognise our emotions so we can soothe ourselves. The Yin and Yang symbol that I use is like a metaphor for what DBT tries to achieve. Based on Behavioural Theory, it is about consciously changing behaviours to ease psychological pain. So, it begins with exercises to change behaviour, in order to begin the whole process of change. Meanwhile supporting this with learning about the concepts (eg mindfulness) that underlie the practises. Building neural pathways between the 'amydala' (the basic emotion part of the brain) and the 'pre frontal cortex' (the thinking part of the brain) - sending that yin/yang circle spinning 

Eg I began to learn about validation and practice on others. The rewards were obvious, the improvement for me in how I felt was significant. So, I learnt more, tried to widen my practice including with some difficult situations. Benefits accrue, I learn more etc etc my validation yin and yang is spinning away, clunky at times but it's working 

When I am feeling 'properly' centred, with all my Buddhist 'rights' in place (right thinking, right understanding etc etc), when all is right in my world. I can visualise my yin and yang spinning away gently, in touch with the positive energy of the universe. I am able to physically reach out to the world and feel embraced by the positive energy that I know is there. So, how does our spiritual belief system fit this?

Now, you know I wish to offend no-one and am sensitive to the wide variety of beliefs here. To explain what I reckon is challenging.

First, I am thoroughly an atheist. Second, I am deeply religious/spiritual. Third I am fascinated by religion. I have studied the bible and sat exams which I passed well. I was brought up a Catholic and have a thorough knowledge of that religion. I also have understandings of a wide variety of religions (I also love history and politics  ).   

As I see it, my construct of the positive energy of the universe can be represented by 'a god figure'. So, belief in God could be the same as my belief in the positive energy of the universe. Religion requires practices of us: attending church, undergoing ceremonies, prayer. These ceremonies serve to consolidate our sense of community as a church and to give us a way to connect with God.

So, if your God represents love - 'positive energy', and you undertake a practice to connect with your God, then it is much the same - as I see it - as me connecting with the universe. I could say, I connect with God - and my God is represented in the physical world I am in and the people of the world and all that is. But if I said that it would be confusing because not everyone has the same concept of what God is. The God I learnt of in school is infinite, everywhere, infallible, God is love. God is manifest in the world I live in, the world before me and the world after me and the world I cannot imagine because it is beyond me. 

It seems to me, that when I say I aim to 'connect with the universe' it is different though to what many would think of as perhaps 'praying to God'. It seems to me that it is a bit more. I don't think it is counter to religious beliefs, I think it is a different way of seeing the world. For example the old testament talks of us as having dominion over the animals, plants, the earth. My concept doesn't allow for dominion. The earth is my 'mother', it is where I come from. All that live on earth are my equals (hard to cope with since I am not vegetarian... .   ). I am stuck in a paradigm shift in thinking. Our cultures are solidly embedded in Judeo Christian beliefs and of course my consciousness is too. As with the concepts of acceptance and detachment, I have to work on this to be able to embrace the concept of being open to the universe.

So, I hope I haven't confused the issue more... .   it is about changing how my brain works... .   I hope I haven't upset anyone, it is not my intention.

sending you all lots of positive energy and best wishes,

Vivek      
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« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2013, 04:41:27 PM »

Vivek  -  I so very much desire to set with you over tea or coffee. To see and touch each other. I printed out your reply - to allow myself the pleasure to absorb it slowly. To be able to set it aside with each interuption from gd as she comes and goes in her play with neighbor kids today. Dh is at work for another half hour. Then my time is not my own again. I feel so constrained in my life and am so filled -up  with words and ideas and nowhere to share them. Thank you so very much for your courage and vulnerabiltiy to share this with me here, and with any others that can be open to your ponderings, musings, believing, questioning.

It is all so very connected. I really struggle with the languages we each speak so much that is the same and are limited by how we are able to communicate. And I end up feeling like I don't belong anywhere right now. And I am afraid. And I cannot detach safely in this state of mind because I fear I will drift away and become lost to this life and world and be aimless energy with no light. Dark energy leaving only a vauge footprint for some distant scientist to see and question where it "I" came from, what I did here, where I went when I left.

So all I can do now is type this and cry and know that I have to get back into my body before another person comes through the door. Box it all up again. I am so detached right now it is beyond the spinning yin and yang that I want to feel and think and act from.

Do I delete this, or post    Post I think. Or these words that express this moment for me will disappear too.

qcr   PD traits
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« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2013, 05:36:07 PM »

Dear qcr,

I wish I was there too. Are you feeling detached or disassociated? It seems that you have a black cloud above your head, dampening your true spirit. I am so sorry. I am struggling to find the words that will make sense to you. I wonder if your brain chemistry is sabotaging your thinking... .  

We have been discussing, struggling with 'existential' questions. And this can be so very hard. You are right, the words we use can 'trick' us. We think we understand but what we understand is perhaps different in substance to what others understand. The detachment I know is one that brings happiness and centredness with oneself; with the detachment I know, we affirm who we are.

Detachment is not feeling lost inside myself. I have in the past felt as if I were a shallow shell wearing a mask that fooled the world - and really there was nothing behind the mask. Fortunately it was transient and I thought of this as disassociation at the time... .  

If I were with you now, I would be giving you a massage with fragrant oils and telling you to forget all this talk. Leave it aside. Yes, it is important, but what is more important is that you do what you need to, to regain your balance and bring yourself into the light. So if I said to you hold your face up into the love of God, let his warmth shine on you, let his love and care penetrate you from the inside out so that you are filled with the love of God - could you do that? Would that help?

Our brains don't all work the same way. Our consciousness is defined to a large extent by our culture. Our language is cultural too. If you go to another country and get a dose of the common cold, in other languages they understand the symptoms differently. In Spain , a cold is referred to as a cough. There may be no coughing in the symptoms, but it is understood as a cough. They have a different way of seeing these things.

I had a paradigm shift in seeing the world when I went to an art gallery a while ago. In Australia we have a strong indigenous culture and a powerful art movement. Our indigenous art is a representation of the world as they see it. I was lucky to view a collection of some genius work, and I got a small insight into a totally different way of seeing the world. The eyes through which they look, shows them the world differently to our eyes. Their understandings are so very different to ours.

So, these words, these concepts that I have tried to understand for myself are a challenge to understand because we are working on it from our own experiences and cultures. There is no rush to understand. The words, the concepts are here to stay. But we must look after ourselves first.

When I feel lost, I go back to home base. I remind myself to nurture myself. Everything else goes by the by, it can wait. If I need care, I do what I can to take care. Is your medication right? Are you sufficiently rested? Are you eating well? Is your body healthy enough? Don't forget things like positive self talk, affirmations, walks in fresh air, relaxation, prayer - reach out to what has helped in the past.

Are you comforted with the love of your God and your family and your friends ... .   and us here? If not, reassure yourself you are loved.

qcr I am sending you love. Can you see the gentle showers of sparkly golden sprinkles above you? Each sprinkle as it reaches you, is a gentle dusting of warmth and best wishes, soon you will be showered in golden light. It is from me and all of us here who love you dearly. Please take care of yourself.

Vivek          

   
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« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2013, 11:13:16 PM »

Ok, just read the article and the thread.

first and foremost:

qcr, OH SO SCARY!      

God will hold you in his hand, you will get through this, you will emerge on the other side.   

Thank you for posting what's been going on, hang in there, offering up a prayer for you.   

lbj and others:

Neurofeedback therapy sounds great! Kind of like a gym for the parts of brain that need strengthening! With the exception that once those neural connections are created, they tend to last way longer than our muscles?

qcr,  When you are feeling better (don't feel obligated to read this right now)

You talk about the bottom-up and top-down; the bottom-up is the largely subconscious leading to emotions, and then the top-down conscious managed by thinking? If so, I have a theory:

Little children have that bottom-up mechanism, and the mother initially helps them regulate from the outside (substitute for the top-bottom), and as the child develops, ideally they learn to engage the top-bottom mechanism and internalize the regulation process.

And if for whatever reason (bio or environment) the child is not able to start learning to engage that mechanism, BPD may develop?

Now let me post a provocative thought here:

As I read various books on BPD that mention different/impaired brain functioning, I thought:

Ok, so the brain is broken?

Then when I read more about the functional MRIs (images of the brain in action, basically), and the results that there are differences between brains of pwBPD and brains of people without BPD, I thought, ok, so the brains function differently.

But what is the cause and effect?

Do the brains function differently because of BPD, or is there BPD because the persons use their brain differently?

So with this Neurofeedback therapy and also an article that I read a while back (experiment with people learning to play the piano - as they practiced, brain activity was increasing in the centers that great piano players have a lot of activity when they play), I am thinking: unless there is some physical damage/condition or some hormonal imbalance that would prevent better functioning of the brain,

the solution seems to be in the SIMPLE RE-TRAINING OF THE BRAIN.

What I mean is: it looks to me that for some reason our children were not able to develop normal brain functioning growing up, but it can happen now with therapy!

And on the contrary: if they are not agreeable to therapy, they will just keep using their brains the way they are used to, only strengthening the dysfunctional pathways that they have available at the moment, making their condition more and more permanent... .  





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« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2013, 09:33:05 AM »

Now let me post a provocative thought here:

As I read various books on BPD that mention different/impaired brain functioning, I thought:

Ok, so the brain is broken?

Then when I read more about the functional MRIs (images of the brain in action, basically), and the results that there are differences between brains of pwBPD and brains of people without BPD, I thought, ok, so the brains function differently.

But what is the cause and effect?

Do the brains function differently because of BPD, or is there BPD because the persons use their brain differently?

So with this Neurofeedback therapy and also an article that I read a while back (experiment with people learning to play the piano - as they practiced, brain activity was increasing in the centers that great piano players have a lot of activity when they play), I am thinking: unless there is some physical damage/condition or some hormonal imbalance that would prevent better functioning of the brain,

the solution seems to be in the SIMPLE RE-TRAINING OF THE BRAIN.

What I mean is: it looks to me that for some reason our children were not able to develop normal brain functioning growing up, but it can happen now with therapy!

And on the contrary: if they are not agreeable to therapy, they will just keep using their brains the way they are used to, only strengthening the dysfunctional pathways that they have available at the moment, making their condition more and more permanent... .  

pessio - you have captured so clearly the circular nature of the brain picture of BPD that has been making me feel crazy. So I have taken a break from the theories being immersed in the day to day functioning with my BPD DD. There are so many variables that impact the development of BPD starting at conception (genetics), fetal development, infant and early childhood experiences (sometimes very much impacted by the first two - esp. noted with our kids showing very early extremes of behavior and functioning), then the huge changes in adolescents both biochemically and direct brain development. There is some brain research that show some actual loss of brain volume in early adulthood. Does responsive treatment for adolescents and young adults stop or reverse this more permanent impact? Some have discussed in other threads, and it is in the brain research, that adolescence is a time to get rid of those neural pathways that are unused - cleaning house. Maybe this is what is seen when there is not treatment - dysfunctional patterns get somewhat locked in.

I choose to believe, and have hope that future research with new configurations of treatment, will allow the flexible brains of pwBPD to restore functioning at a higher level. Build compensating neural pathways for those lost in that 13 - 25 window of brain development.

I have started reading Russel Meares newest publications (2012) in his research and therapy experiences. It is hopeful for me - if I can hold onto the hope that someday my DD26 will search out and accept treatment. The hardest part is the long term nature of effective treatment -- a minimum of one year, preferred 2-3 year window. The T's have to be well-trained and have the support of GOOD SUPERVISION. In other words, the T has be actively in therapy to be able to stay in a healthy r/s with the patient/client, for these therapies to work. It is easy for the T to get overwhelmed and shut down in self-protection.

So I will post some notes that keep popping up - these 3x5 cards seem to be the bookmark for what I am reading each day in my bible and in my collection of quotes I carry in my purse for inspiration when needed. See my next reply.

qcr  
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« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2013, 10:23:47 AM »

Here is information from the first chapter of "BPD and the Conversational Model - A Clinician's Manual" (Russell Meares, 2012) that gives a somewhat different interpretation the impacts of the 9 criteria for BPD from the DSMIV. The author is a researcher so the languge in his books seems more technical than some and is harder for me to understand. This is not an exact quote but what I took from this first chapter. The brain-based theory behind this book is in "A Dissociation Model of BPD" (Meares, 2012). My comments are shown in [].

This reading gives me lots to ponder in my search to better understand my DD26 and maintain a healthy connection with her.

Title of Chapter 1: Lack of Cohesion: The Central Deficit of BPD

1st argument:  Primary disturbance in BPD is a failure of cohesion fo the sense of self, and that this disconnectedness amoung the elements of psychic life is a reflectin of a disconnectedness, or lack of coordinatoiin, between areas of brain function that usually operate together. This disconnection of brain-mind function is associatedwith neurophysiological evidence of realtive failure in higher-order inhibitory function (Meares 2012 ch4; Meares et al 2005). It is related to underactivity of cortical midline structures, notably the prefrontal orbito frontal cortes and anterior cingulate.

[note: Daniel Hughes book "Brain Based Parenting" also emphasizes the impacts of limits in the anteriro cingulate - this is the bridge between the prefrontal cortex (thinking brain) and the amygdala (emotion brain). There are significant impacts from the hippocampus - this is the brain structure that shows the atrophy in adults with BPD that showed imbalances in activity of prefrontal cortex and amygdala in adolesence in these MRI studies]

2nd argument: This concerns the way in which lack of cohesion is OVERCOME. Its (lack of cohesion) basis is developmental and dependent on the idea that the first forms of cohesion of personal existing are found in early life in particular from kinds of interplay between child and caregiver exemplified by "protoconversation" and "symbolic play".

[God created us and gave us WORDS and the ability to share these symbols of our psyche in playfulness and curiosity - parts of Dan Huges PACE model of which is surrounded by unconditional love. When I ponder the creation story of Adam & Eve in the Garden, with tihs knowledge as my perspective, I read this story as the greatest parable about our brain-body-psychic existence. Big physical brain - big head - painful birth - long developemntal childhood. Risks of disconnectin at any point given this complex design. We are often striving to return to a more simple perfection]

BPD largely has been identified by affect and impulse dysregulatin - 5 of 9 criteria in DSM IV refers to these behaviors. This is has been conceived as the core of the disorder and the primary source of disturbance. [treatments in DBT/CBT areas focus on these criteria] Yet when the outcomes of these grouped features of dysregulation is compared with outcomes of of the 3 criteria making up the "sefl-triad" - nebulous sense of sefl/identity, emptiness, intolerance of aloneness - the latter (self-triad) endures without specifically designed therapy for the self-triad, even though the former (dysregulatin) improves (Meares 2012, ch3, Meares et al 2011).

Since endurance is the cardianl feature of PD's, it is inferred that this grouping (disturbances of self) is the true primary and to a large extent, dysregulation is secondary. As cohesion (self) increases - dysregulation wanes. The reverse is not seen with DBT 'success' because there is endurance of BPD disturbance of self after DBT therapy. [This also fits with Dan Huges treatment assertions and experiences that shift focus to brain-body balance instead of focus on managing behavior to nuture healthy psycho-social functioning. Reading about his PACE model I can see many parallels with both Meares theories and other treatment models like Schema and Mentalization therapies.]

It is assumed (by Meares research and treatment experience) that dissociation is part of teh self-disturbance grouping of the DSM criteria. The SELF is a coordination; dissociation is its opposite (Meares 2012, ch7). It is proposed that this state, in varying and fluctuating degrees, is the core of the borderline condition.

I am only about half way through both of Meares books - needed to take a break. There are 16 chapters! The books are quite expensive so downloaded the digital versions. This makes it much harder for me to cross-reference while I read which may be contributing the some of my confusion and headaches! And the technical, scientific nature make it a harder read as well. But the information is so valuable in my search for understanding my DD, and managing my own health in this long and painful r/s with her. I so so pray for her to accept treatment as I let go of this outcome and expectation. I am powerless to create the outcome. Need this reminder daily.

Thanks so much for letting me share this with you. Helps so to get it out of my mind.

qcr  
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« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2013, 11:58:36 AM »

Thanks qcr!

I find this last post very interesting... .   today especially ... .   as I am trying to find therapy for my SS10 that can address his identity issues.

The drugs and BT help some with the emotional dysreg but at the core is this loss of connection, with what my therapist calls, the heart center.

 

mamachelle

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