How do they turn on the charm?

[Parents! Get help here!]

Since "Icky Christmas 2012" my ud26 daughter has not only given me the silent treatment, but has been downright unforgiving and nasty, her triggers set off by any little thing, so I have taken a hiatus.  Until tonight, when she shocked me with a phone call.  When I saw her name on the caller I.D. I said out loud, "either she's done something awful, or she wants something, let's hope for the latter."

Thankfully, it was the latter.  Now someone explain to me, please, how if they are unable to regulate their emotions, how can they at will become Ms. Congeniality when they want something?   

I said no to babysitting, btw, because I already had plans to do something for myself (yoga).  Now, would I use validation for being charming?  I didn't because her only reason for calling was to ask a favor, which is also the only time she ever asks how I am.  But I did take advantage of the moment to ask her some information I'd been wondering about, and since she has "unfriended" us on Facebook, I'm out of the loop. 

[DreamLight]

Since "Icky Christmas 2012" my ud26 daughter has not only given me the silent treatment, but has been downright unforgiving and nasty, her triggers set off by any little thing, so I have taken a hiatus.  Until tonight, when she shocked me with a phone call.  When I saw her name on the caller I.D. I said out loud, "either she's done something awful, or she wants something, let's hope for the latter."

Thankfully, it was the latter.  Now someone explain to me, please, how if they are unable to regulate their emotions, how can they at will become Ms. Congeniality when they want something?   

I said no to babysitting, btw, because I already had plans to do something for myself (yoga).  Now, would I use validation for being charming?  I didn't because her only reason for calling was to ask a favor, which is also the only time she ever asks how I am.  But I did take advantage of the moment to ask her some information I'd been wondering about, and since she has "unfriended" us on Facebook, I'm out of the loop. 

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[pessim-optimist]

From what I understand, they are only supposed to have a hard time regulating their emotions, and subsequently their behavior, when they are triggered by something. Otherwise, they can be super-charming.

What I do not understand is, when they are triggered, and are for instance raging at their child, how come they are able to answer the phone with a very pleasant tone and after they hang up, they can go right back to raging... .  

[momontherun]

Hi DreamLight... .  The way I look at my dd15 these days is I see a hollow shell unable to accept herself let alone the judgements she feels others have toward her. Most of this is in her mind as she is so charming people are naturally drawn to her and have nothing but good to say about her even after breaking trust. One of her "key" talents is to observe how others present themselves then mimic their behaviors so others see her as they want to see themselves and want to be around her all the time. This is how she connects with people. She has it "so together" they vent to her and she takes all this in dishing advice she cannot follow herself, creating major conflict amongst her friends using those feelings against a person to get back at one that smiled at another friends crush or calling her on her bs so her friends protect themselves by distancing from her and correct her accusations by defending themselves. She is then left alone in that endless void of her negative thoughts, self loathing etc. until one of them forgives her or she makes a new friend to enmesh herself with. She cannot accept herself so relies on others to give this to her. She finds herself in situations she really doesn't want to do (as simplistic as going fishing or shopping) yet agreeing in a heartbeat for that acceptance = more internal negativity.

So yes, use validation for being charming even though her intent was to get something from you... .  she cannot do this for herself so you do it for her: You are very brave coming to me with this, it must have been difficult for you to ask ~wait for her response: if its something other than agreeing or positive apologize and validate what she brings up... .  If its something I cannot do: I am flattered you thought I could do this however I don't have the money or time or whatever... .  be honest. Lets problem solve this - how can we get you this? ~wait for her response then if constructive: wow! what a great idea - how do you want me to help with that?... .  if not constructive: Let me suggest a couple of things you could do... .  What do you think? ... .  if someone gets/does it for her and she wants to rub it in your face - validate that: I see how happy you are, I bet your relieved it all worked out... .  Well you get the idea - validate every positive response, reframe every negative response she has so she could be more receptive and actually hear what you have to say. For dd15 and I this works 90% of the time... .  when it doesn't: Lets take some time to process all this and talk about it later.

This is difficult especially when our own emotions are involved - its mentally draining especially when we get distanced or "painted black"... .  yet very necessary if we want the relationship - luckily, tomorrow is a new day... .  a new chance to try again.


Hi, pesim-optimist... .  to do anything but what you describe is how they hang onto their projection so they appear "normal" - that everything is A-ok to deter anyone from becoming suspicious providing further fuel for their negative thoughts. So in a way its self preservation.

Of course, these are just my opinions from my basic understanding - others more experienced may provide better insight     

[vivekananda]

Hey there 

Touching insights and I can picture that raging monster turn sweet and light on a sixpence - but when it became totally disregulated not possible. Sorry to say it made me smile remembering... .  

anyway. Re validation, I wouldn't validate anything that wasn't an emotion, a feeling. As i understand it there are two reasons to validate:

1) to show that you are really hearing them - as a way to build the relationship between you

2) to help them build the neural pathways between their emotions and their thinking. Validation both gives them the language and brings them into the present. This is therapeutic.

so when she is being 'charming', you could say 'hullo dearest loving daughter... .  ' oops, sorry, perhaps 'hullo there, you sound happy'.

Re raging - that's when the boundary setting helps. Your boundaries, based on your values, for your and others' 'protection'.

Vivek    

[mggt]

hello i was wondering if u could tell me a little about your d i noticed u said she asked u to babysit how old is her baby and where does she live is she on her own or with bf my d has a baby almost 1 years old and d is  20 i babysit 4 days a week and her ex bf mom babysits on weekends she works thank god becasue down time for d is the worst her mind wont stop thinking has she ever had a successful relationship with guys my daughter just broke up with her bf months ago and she is still whirling from it mostly due to her BPD but she does not think she has a problem . she is currently living with her ex bf parents bf is not there have u talked to her about BPD and does she think she has a problem everytime i bring subject up with my daughter she explodes she thinks everyone else has the problem not her  thank you

[DreamLight]

  Thanks everybody for your thoughts.  Vivek , I can't even tell you how much it helps to have these little examples of what I could say in these scenarios.  I get absolutely speechless after weeks of the nasty treatment, then she calls with a completely different demeanor.  It's shocking!  And yes, I laugh (silently) a bit about it too... .  We just couldn't make this stuff up!

The reminders of the purpose of validating was very helpful too.  Btw, I am signed up for Family to Family, starting in March, Yay!

@mggt:  you will find more than a few Grandparents in here, and it's been very helpful to me.  My daughter,26, is undiagnosed, except for  her suicide attempt at age 18, where they said "signs of BPD".  She has two kids, ages 2 and 6.  She lived with my partner and I for a time, then on her own.  She and the kids will be moving in with her father (in denial) next month.  My daughter has refused treatment for depression and anxiety.  She uses alcohol and prescription drugs.  She blames her poor state of mind on her situation, and thinks every single mom feels the way she does.  Her relationships with men are inappropriate to disastrous, and her girlfriends are also young mom/party girls.  I don't feel I have the skills to broach the topic of treatment again with her.  When I've tried in the past, it has not gone well.  We were lucky to get her to agree to drink a nutritional shake once a day when she was pregnant.  Most days she did not, and it was a major success when she did.  So I am not painting a very pretty picture here.  Despite all this, she keeps a job and keeps her kids, so we call that "functioning".  By some miracle, the baby was born without defect.  It helps me to count these blessings, and be truly grateful every day.  This forum gives me new insights, skills, and kindred spirits to share with. 

Holding us all in good thoughts   

DreamLight

[mggt]

Thank you so much for answering me it sounds like u have quite a lot to deal with.  i know how you feel they can be quite charming when they want something i think that is why sometimes i dont understand it if they can be kind to other people why cant they treat us with the same attitude   

[vivekananda]

Hi all,

DreamLight, you stay in touch girl. It's through discussing our issues and our thoughts that we can slowly turn around our thinking and learn to manage ourselves better.

I have been here for a year now and it has been a time of intense learning and change for me. I came here after the experience of trying to get my dd32 to see a therapist for assessment and possible DBT. This started a year of no contact with her at her instigation. So, most of last year I spent learning as much as I could about BPD and about what I could do. I have done a complete turn around and I believe I am a much better person for it. Furthermore, I believe I am on track to repair my relationship with my dd. All this has been thanks to the people here who have guided and supported me. I would like to suggest we let go of trying to get our daughters to see they have a problem. There are more productive ways to get results. We all start with just validation and boundaries. And they are hard enough. We all need to pull back from trying to change them and instead we learn to change ourselves.

cheers,

Vivek    

[somuchlove]

   Letting you know that this is a Grandma... .   My dd has undiagnosed BPD.  She has 3 wonderful little ones.  They live about 7 hrs. by plane from us so it is very difficult not being around them as much as I wish.  For me that might be good, not being in the daily up and downs, but do so worry about how this is affecting the little ones.  I think when there are grandchildren in the picture it may be harder.  I find it that way anyway.  Setting boundaries, etc like helping with financial things does affect the gks .   Sometimes I want to tell her,  I am taking them until you "grow up" then because I know you are a good mom in so many ways, you can have them.  BPD reminds me of a spoiled kid for somereason.

I to get the calls, I can tell in the first 2-3 words from her if she is asking for something or not. 

Welcome on this site.  it is wonderful.  I don't always like what I read here.  I just think I know what can fix my dd.  NOT ! !  

It is so difficult.  I think the most difficult thing for me to deal with is the statement that we can't make them better.  TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF ! !    That is hard for us mom's to do.  I still have trouble with that.  I feel guilty, if I am having a good time, being glad and avoiding calling dd because I just don't want to know, yet knowing her world is upside down.  Oh will it ever get better  

Take care and keep posting.  I also like specific examples of how to reply.  I don't know why I have trouble, I understand the valadation, etc but just can't put it in the right words.  

  to everyone here.

[vivekananda]

Hi again,

I think that validation, which sounds so simple, is so hard because it requires us to change the way we think.

Validation means listening to the feelings, the emotion behind what someone is saying. So, when your dd rings and you can tell she is angry (the most common emotion for pw BPD I think), we hear she is angry, easy. But we are parents, we want to fix things, we feel guilty etc etc. So, we respond with solutions, explanations etc. that leaves us wide open to being blamed for when things go wrong again. It's our fault because, they say, I did what you told me and it didn't work!

All we want is to be heard. We all have unmet enotional needs at the core of those things which make us unhappy. When we speak, we want to be heard - we want our emotions acknowledged. If you have been distressed and felt validated by anyone, you know how it feels. It is a relief, we think, thank goodness, here is someone who understands us.

Now ultimately, only one person can meet our unmet emotional needs, ourselves. That's simple it. Others can ease us for a bit, but we are the only ones who have control over our emotions.

Now with pwBPD, their amydala (emotional part of the brain) and their prefrontal cortex (logical part of the brain) have limited neural pathways (research has 'proved' this). So, to help our pwBPD we need to give them the language to help rebuild these neural pathways.

So, to validate means to stop thinking about what the person is saying and to think about how the person is feeling. We need to name their emotions for them, this can help them rebuild their neural pathways, help them heal.

But to do this, requires constant practice, in our world, we do not usually communicate this way. If we meet someone who does we think how wonderful they are, but these people are not the norm. Most of us are caught up in our rat race, running in our little treadmills like those rats, just going in circles. It's hard to make the jump outside the circle, it's hard to stand still and think for ourselves. But that's what we have to do if we want to help our pw BPD, the ones we love.

Ultimately, we need to be able to identify our own emotions and unmet emotional needs and address them ourselves. So, untimately validation means looking carefully at ourselves and recognising and what cause us to behave in ways we would rather not, what causes us discomfort.

Validation is the first step on a big journey of 'self discovery' for ourselves. Afterall if we are not in control of our emotions (and unmet emotional needs), how can we expect a pw BPD to be. Of course it's hard. Afterall we think to oursleves, I'm not the one with BPD, why should I have to change... .  why? because while it is hard, the rewards are worth it! for us and our people with BPD.

gee i hope all this makes sense,

thinking of us all,

Vivek    

[pessim-optimist]

Hi Vivek ,

a question for you since your story reminds me of our current story w/our ud31: Can you describe what happened there with your breakdown in communication, and how you got back on track? We're wondering if and how things can ever be even semi-normal again with us... .  

A quick story-it's complicated: her parents divorced when she was 11, very adversarial, and eventually she ended up with her dad only, from 15yrs on. Always bad relationship with mom, mom judged unfit to parent her. After adulthood off-and-on with mom, always very close with dad except one year of nc over his other divorce (he, like many men after a bad divorce went through several relationships, before we met & married 10 yrs ago.). So, about a year ago, she started talking to her mom more, and suddenly split her dad into all bad (the divorce and everything was his fault, etc.) and ever since, she has been going down hill with more and more outrageous accusations of things that are either grossly exaggerated, or totally made up. What doesn't help is the fact that her younger sister non-BP, naturally successful, talented etc., grew up with mom and had support of the extended family. Now ud31 seems to forget all of her childhood problems and struggles, and seems to think, if she would have stayed with mom, she would have had the life her envied sister has, so she blames dad for all her problems.

So, what we are wondering is, how to possibly stop this downhill process, and if/how there can be anything positive in the future?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[vivekananda]

Hi pesi... . 

Well we are the same but different. Dh and I are professionals (recently retired), married 32 years in a solid relationship. He worked in social welfare community sector and reached executive level. I was a sec teacher (Leading teacher) of English and History. Solid reliable decent normal people ... .  with a history of BPD in both families    D was always a difficult child, after her there was no way I'd have another - I wouldn't cope. I was what could be described as a 'restrictive' parent - I had rules/boundaries; dh was a 'permissive' parent, he wanted the rules to be flexible to suit him. If dd was 'normal' she would have been fine with our differences, but BPD has a genetic component, and she wasn't 'normal'.

Pre puberty she began to isolate me and draw in her dad. Prior to this we were extraordinarily close. Come adolescence she was in full flight. I sort of gave up on trying to 'intervene', my objective was to see her to adulthood safe and sound. Come 18 dh had a terminal illness for more than a year, from which he recovered (liver transplant). DD went off the rails and left home, into drugs big time - serious at risk behaviour. By 21 she had started to be 'normal' - but not really of course. Uni and work... .  nearly 3 years ago she threw in her career in finance management - stress. 2 yrs later she was still not working fulltime permanent. Last year she melted down big time. When I went to see her to suggest assessment for DBT she went ballistic seriously, it was over and above the usual raging and anger. After that in Jan, there was no contact between us at all. She contacted her dad a few times, purpose was to get money, which she received.

dd believes she has been subjected to a lifetime of physical and emotional abuse at my hands, while dh stood by and let it happen. I used force with her once when she was in danger of hurting herself or me when she was 9 and raging uncontrollably, that's all - and dh wasn't there... .  She needs to believe this to justify her belief that she has PTSD. (Post traumatic stress disorder). Now we are hopefully rebuilding our relationship. This is how:

Dh reluctantly agreed to boundaries re enabling and giving money (long story) esp in July. In Oct I wrote a 'sorry' letter to dd for her b'day (see Porr). She accepted it, saying thanks. She went on hols somewhere. In Dec I texted asking to meet for coffee. We met for an hour - I validated my heart out. Arranged to meet week after - validated my heart out. We went on hols, she's too busy - meeting again this Thurs for coffee! We are able to talk without any anger at all rising up, I believe it is working!

So a year to learn how to change myself and begin to put it into practice. An objective that is solely to rebuild my relationship with her. An understanding that it is on her terms and as slow as it has to be to build something that was destroyed.

In that time she has seen a T for PTSD, she has learnt some CBT and is better for it. But she is not addressing her BPD and whether she does or not is nothing to do with my objective which is just to have a relationship with her.

DH is sitting back watching, he is now out of the picture which doesn't bother him in that he still wants to deny it but knows he can't... .  that doesn't matter either.

Feel free to ask any questions. I have been as brief as i could... . 

cheers,

Vivek   

[pessim-optimist]

Hi Vivek , thank you so much for your reply.

I will have to look at V. Porr again, have seen that book, tried reading, but seemed to me at the time that it is really just appeasing the BP, by basically accepting the validity of their accusations, and apologizing for it... .  

I also possibly have an undiagnosed BP brother (funny how we sometimes end up with clusters on both sides of families, right?), and I tried in the past to intuitively venture out into his world and accept his claims and deal with him in "his world". It was helping for the time being, but with time, it seems to me without any reality checks, that would ground him back to earth, he got more and more out of touch with reality in the long run... .  

Also, we are christian, and some of the concepts are admittedly based on buddhist philosophy, which I have no problem with as long as it doesn't contradict my worldview. And I get it, I don't want to be making things worse, however, I have to operate within the boundaries of my own integrity... .  so, I see that that might be a challenge to find some workable answers... .  

Does anybody have that kind of problem also?

I am a principle based person, and I have no problem apologizing if I believe I may have done something wrong, but in a situation where we are collectively the victims of an ill mind, that concept to me is rather troubling, because without truth (I mean the basic facts, not people's emotions), how do you get back to reality rather than permanently land in OZ?

But I'll try to look at it with an open mind again. I'll also try to look up the last book you mentioned, haven't heard of that one.

Again, thanks a bunch!  

[momontherun]

As I was reading your updated post I couldn't help but be reminded of the book by Gary & Joy Lundberg - I Don't Have to Make Everything All Better  (6 principles to use to empower family members to solve own problems based on empathy and validation). This book resonated with me constantly trying to be the "fixer" taking on all responsibility after all, I am the decision maker for my family - Then I read Valerie Porr's Overcoming BPD yet I was still creating barriers/excuses not fully accepting yet willing to try anything so I read, Stop Walking on Eggshells book (fear obligation guilt, communicating with empathy and validating the emotion etc.) this helped to examine myself now my main barrier of trying to "fix" it was down. Now I am working in the workbook to continue my path of self discovery, what is keeping me stuck in my mindset? etc. It is difficult to realize I wasn't receptive to see the problems due to my rigid thinking until my life became blown way out of proportion: dd15 knows better, I taught her better - we have talked about all of this yet its still happening why? what have I done wrong? what could I do? etc The simplistic answer to those are absolutely nothing.

We base our lives on our perceptions and accept the fact everyone is unique and handles things differently coming from different backgrounds and experiences true? When a loved one doesn't share our perception it hurts and it stirs up all kinds of things within us to get our perception across to our loved one yet they are unable to as they see it differently. There is the saying there are 3 sides to every story: what you saw, what they saw and what actually happened... .  this opens up to the reality that their perception (no matter how off base) is real to them just as it is real to you. Now you can try to convince them with the facts as you know them to be and wear yourself out trying or you can accept this is their reality - their personal truth - what they know to be real - what stirs up those painful emotions and hold them down... .  it is what it is and there is not a darn thing we can do about it.

So what can we do? Accept it - DD15 is convinced I ruined her life by leaving her father when she was young - if she had her dad she would be alright, I couldn't give her the things she wanted so she had to steal them, I forced her to cook/clean/babysit her brothers growing up before she was ready while I did absolutely nothing so she si's to cope etc. Now those are her perceptions - her realities. Are they mine? nope I could go on the defensive with all of these and more wasting energy distancing us even further from each other as she believes these things with every fiber of her being although I have proof how inaccurate they are. So I do the only thing I can - accept her reality... .  it is what it is.

When I start beating myself up or go on the defensive (its only natural) I remind myself their feelings are their facts which in turn are their perception - their truth along with what I learned from my bio dad: the best lie comes with a grain of truth. I am not saying they are liars or are purposely trying to get away with something (although sometimes this is the case). What I am saying is what is their truth? they are in constant self inflicted emotional pain ... .  scared, lonely, afraid etc. So they cling to their realities and become hostile when no one believes them, tries to change them or add more fuel to the fire unintentionally. How can we help them? By changing ourselves, accept their perception no matter how wrong, validate their emotions so they can hopefully be receptive to hearing what we have to say, our perception, our limitations thus helping them overcome their self inflicted pain.

My perception is this is exactly what we do in faith so we can do this with our loved ones. How we "get" there? Its different from person to person just like how one comes to/embraces faith. Even the best self help books and/or advice is not going to do a thing until we let go of our personal barriers to be receptive, find what works for us and enact them.

This is what works for me - you'll find what works for you ... .  hang in there - tomorrow is a new day