Now dh is being accused of a crime...

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

The boys found DH's empty rifle he had when he was 12 years old.   His dad brought it to him over Christmas.  The boys (14 and 12) went into our closet when they weren't supposed to and found it and told BPD mom.  We don't even have ammo anywhere in the house, but of course, mom sends an accusatory email:

It's come to my attention that the children found a gun in your closet.  They said it was a rifle or a shotgun.  It was my understanding that we agreed to never have a gun in our respective homes, and certainly to never have a gun that was accessible to our children.  I have instructed the children to stay out of your closet and to never touch it.  I am horrified that you even have a gun, and astounded that it's not locked up!  You have six curious kids. You never know what they're going to do!

It's against the law to allow a child access to a firearm. It needs to be IMMEDIATELY removed from your home or secured in a locking safe that the kids cannot access.


****

DH thinks he is just going to get the lawyer to respond to her.  Her hypocrisy is funny--her last husband had guns in their house and even let the boys handle them.

Should DH say anything at all or just let his lawyer respond?

[sanemom]

The boys found DH's empty rifle he had when he was 12 years old.   His dad brought it to him over Christmas.  The boys (14 and 12) went into our closet when they weren't supposed to and found it and told BPD mom.  We don't even have ammo anywhere in the house, but of course, mom sends an accusatory email:

It's come to my attention that the children found a gun in your closet.  They said it was a rifle or a shotgun.  It was my understanding that we agreed to never have a gun in our respective homes, and certainly to never have a gun that was accessible to our children.  I have instructed the children to stay out of your closet and to never touch it.  I am horrified that you even have a gun, and astounded that it's not locked up!  You have six curious kids. You never know what they're going to do!

It's against the law to allow a child access to a firearm. It needs to be IMMEDIATELY removed from your home or secured in a locking safe that the kids cannot access.


****

DH thinks he is just going to get the lawyer to respond to her.  Her hypocrisy is funny--her last husband had guns in their house and even let the boys handle them.

Should DH say anything at all or just let his lawyer respond?

[DreamGirl]

The boys found DH's empty rifle he had when he was 12 years old.   His dad brought it to him over Christmas.  The boys (14 and 12) went into our closet when they weren't supposed to and found it and told BPD mom.  We don't even have ammo anywhere in the house, but of course, mom sends an accusatory email:

It's come to my attention that the children found a gun in your closet.  They said it was a rifle or a shotgun.  It was my understanding that we agreed to never have a gun in our respective homes, and certainly to never have a gun that was accessible to our children.  I have instructed the children to stay out of your closet and to never touch it.  I am horrified that you even have a gun, and astounded that it's not locked up!  You have six curious kids. You never know what they're going to do!

It's against the law to allow a child access to a firearm. It needs to be IMMEDIATELY removed from your home or secured in a locking safe that the kids cannot access.


****

DH thinks he is just going to get the lawyer to respond to her.  Her hypocrisy is funny--her last husband had guns in their house and even let the boys handle them.

Should DH say anything at all or just let his lawyer respond?

My husband likes to keep the peace.

His response:

Absolutely, I will make sure the guns are locked up.

[BentNotBroken]

Remove the firing pins, lock those in a safe. Lock up the guns separately. Ignore the wife's email. If it comes up in court, inform the court that it is an inoperable relic, and there is no ammunition in the house.

My ex got caught with an unsecured gun in the house ( with live ammo only inches away) by the guardian after ex made a whole slew of false accusations about my legal possession & storage of firearms. Oh, the irony.

Can't wait till we go to trial.

[sanemom]

The boys found DH's empty rifle he had when he was 12 years old.   His dad brought it to him over Christmas.  The boys (14 and 12) went into our closet when they weren't supposed to and found it and told BPD mom.  We don't even have ammo anywhere in the house, but of course, mom sends an accusatory email:

It's come to my attention that the children found a gun in your closet.  They said it was a rifle or a shotgun.  It was my understanding that we agreed to never have a gun in our respective homes, and certainly to never have a gun that was accessible to our children.  I have instructed the children to stay out of your closet and to never touch it.  I am horrified that you even have a gun, and astounded that it's not locked up!  You have six curious kids. You never know what they're going to do!

It's against the law to allow a child access to a firearm. It needs to be IMMEDIATELY removed from your home or secured in a locking safe that the kids cannot access.


****

DH thinks he is just going to get the lawyer to respond to her.  Her hypocrisy is funny--her last husband had guns in their house and even let the boys handle them.

Should DH say anything at all or just let his lawyer respond?

My husband likes to keep the peace.

His response:

Absolutely, I will make sure the guns are locked up.

It is just one gun, and right now we have no way to lock it up.  It is just what BentNotBroken said, though--an inoperable relic.  No ammo, a trigger lock on it, and I don't even think we have the firing pins (if I remember correctly, they got left at grandpa's).  If DH tells her we will lock it up, she will check with the boys and ask about our gun safe, and we don't have one.

I also think DH is worried about covertly admitting guilt by just agreeing with her when he is not guilty... .  especially with all of the court stuff going on.

But I like the idea of just keeping the peace... .  hmmm... .  

It just seems that lately she has been stirring up these things more and more lately for whatever reason.

[BentNotBroken]

Trigger lock on it? Good. Check your state and local laws on legal storage. Some places require it to be trigger locked at a minimum. Others require trigger lock/chamber lock and locked inside a secure case/cabinet, with the ammunition stored in a separate locked container.

Read the law for your area, follow that as a bare minimum. Also follow safe firearm handling guidelines. The NRA's are pretty much the standard best practices for the US.

Also, don't store the keys for the trigger lock where the kids can get to them. Kids are curious, and sneaky. I know I was, however my father taught us safe firearm handling at an early age, and made it very clear that his firearms were not to be touched unless he was present and supervising. It was not "forbidden fruit" per se, and we were allowed access under his direct supervision so there was no temptation to fool around with them when he wasn't supervising. I broke rules growing up, but never that one.

[tog]

I know your question is of the practical variety, but I was struck by how similar the tone of this email is to ones SO gets (or used to get, they are no more since there is a co-parent counselor reading all of them) from STBX and how they affect me emotionally. What I read is:

"You are a terrible parent. The children are frightened of you and they come to me for comfort because they don't trust you. They wish they never had to see you again and are terrified in your home. They are closer to me than to you and that's why they tell me everything about your home immediately upon their arrival here. I am superior to you and everyone in the world knows it. You will have the children taken away from you because of your horrible parenting."

When we get these emails, I immediately feel angry and frightened, which I know is her projecting and dumping her emotions on SO. So maybe respond from that perspective, or maybe not at all.

[sanemom]

Trigger lock on it? Good. Check your state and local laws on legal storage. Some places require it to be trigger locked at a minimum. Others require trigger lock/chamber lock and locked inside a secure case/cabinet, with the ammunition stored in a separate locked container.

Read the law for your area, follow that as a bare minimum. Also follow safe firearm handling guidelines. The NRA's are pretty much the standard best practices for the US.

Our state laws require that the gun is not "readily dischargeable".  Not only is it not "readily dischargeable" we have NO AMMO IN THE HOUSE ANYWHERE!

I was thinking DH could say something like, "The gun is inoperable, certainly not readily dischargeable.  I am not breaking any law.  The kids are safe."  Is that disengaging enough?

tog, in our case with the boys, there is no question that they are closer to him than their mom.  I just hate that we sit here and do not engage her with all the destructive things she does with the boys that we do not approve of, but if she THINKS we are doing something (and she is usually wrong), she jumps right on us.  And for whatever reason, it is happening a lot more lately.

[BentNotBroken]

This could also be a sign that BPD mom is engaging in alienation tactics by interrogating the kids after time with dad. I am pretty sure this is one of the basic no-no's when it comes to sharing the kids, because it is abusive to the children.

[tog]

Oh, I know what she says isn't true. It's actually what she fears, that the kids are closer to you. It's all projection, but it always works with me and SO.  And stbx does it more when court is on the horizon.

BnB, yes, she is interrogating them. That's what stbx does to SS13. I think, actually, he just gives her info right off the bat to avoid the interrogation, at this point.

I think I would get rid of the gun entirely. If he doesn't care about it, take it to the police and get a letter indicating he turned it in. If he does care about it, get a letter from some gun dealer (with pictures) that it's inoperable, and then give it to a friend to hold on to until after court.

[Matt]

Make sure the gun is secured where the kids don't have access to it.

Read the law - it's probably available online - and make sure you are in compliance with it.

Inform your lawyer all about this - about her note and what you have done to secure the gun.

Don't respond to her or have your lawyer respond.  Nothing can be gained by engaging her.

If it comes up in court, tell the truth, exactly as you have told it here.

In a divorce, an aggressive person will seize on anything to make the other party look bad.  If you and your husband are acting sensibly, the accuser will look bad.

[DreamGirl]

It's come to my attention that the children found a gun in your closet.  They said it was a rifle or a shotgun.  It was my understanding that we agreed to never have a gun in our respective homes, and certainly to never have a gun that was accessible to our children.  I have instructed the children to stay out of your closet and to never touch it.  I am horrified that you even have a gun, and astounded that it's not locked up!  You have six curious kids. You never know what they're going to do!

It's against the law to allow a child access to a firearm. It needs to be IMMEDIATELY removed from your home or secured in a locking safe that the kids cannot access.

OK, sanemom.

Parents do get concerned about the kids in the other house. It's part of divorced parenting. Parallel parenting lets each parent be parents separately without too much inclusion of the other home. It's a tool to reduce conflict and it works well.

Things do come up though. i.e. One parent here had a daughter that cut herself only at her moms - it had to be addressed to what was happening in the other home.  

The boys admitting to their mom that they snuck into your closet and found a firearm is kind of a big deal.  

It is very frustrating when it feels like someone is micromanaging our parenting skills. She's basically talking to your husband like he's an idiot.  

My husband has a litmus test when she gets in a mode of being overly worried about the going-ons in our house.

Does she have any validity to her concerns?

If I cross off her nonsense (above), and try to not pay attention to her hypocrisy, then I feel like she does have a valid concern.  

As a mama, I don't want my kiddos sneaking into closets and playing with guns. I, personally, would call my exH myself - not because I don't trust him but because I'd be worried. I'd want to be on the same page. [As an outsider, if I did not know your history, that email looks like a mom worried about her sons]

I don't know that not responding to the email is the best way to handle this. It's not really in everyone's best interest when parents constantly dismiss the other parent's valid concerns.

So I wouldn't dismiss it, but I wouldn't defend myself either.

My husband uses validation a lot, only because it takes the wind right out of her sails when she gets grumpy and accusatory. (His response would have looked a lot like what I wrote originally. He doesn't care at all when she gets bossy or accusatory - her bark is way worse then her bite and its his own way of "dismissing her" by just saying "OK"

Building off what you wrote:

"I can see why you're upset about the gun, I'd probably be worried as well if they came home with a story like that. I'm also upset the boys went into our closet without permission. Please be reassured knowing that the gun was never operable and certainly not readily dischargeable (and will be secured and out of reach). The kids are safe and I will have a frank discussion about it with them."


~DG

[sanemom]

It's come to my attention that the children found a gun in your closet.  They said it was a rifle or a shotgun.  It was my understanding that we agreed to never have a gun in our respective homes, and certainly to never have a gun that was accessible to our children.  I have instructed the children to stay out of your closet and to never touch it.  I am horrified that you even have a gun, and astounded that it's not locked up!  You have six curious kids. You never know what they're going to do!

It's against the law to allow a child access to a firearm. It needs to be IMMEDIATELY removed from your home or secured in a locking safe that the kids cannot access.

OK, sanemom.

Parents do get concerned about the kids in the other house. It's part of divorced parenting. Parallel parenting lets each parent be parents separately without too much inclusion of the other home. It's a tool to reduce conflict and it works well.

Things do come up though. i.e. One parent here had a daughter that cut herself only at her moms - it had to be addressed to what was happening in the other home.  

The boys admitting to their mom that they snuck into your closet and found a firearm is kind of a big deal.  

It is very frustrating when it feels like someone is micromanaging our parenting skills. She's basically talking to your husband like he's an idiot.  

My husband has a litmus test when she gets in a mode of being overly worried about the going-ons in our house.

Does she have any validity to her concerns?

If I cross off her nonsense (above), and try to not pay attention to her hypocrisy, then I feel like she does have a valid concern.  

As a mama, I don't want my kiddos sneaking into closets and playing with guns. I, personally, would call my exH myself - not because I don't trust him but because I'd be worried. I'd want to be on the same page. [As an outsider, if I did not know your history, that email looks like a mom worried about her sons]

I don't know that not responding to the email is the best way to handle this. It's not really in everyone's best interest when parents constantly dismiss the other parent's valid concerns.

So I wouldn't dismiss it, but I wouldn't defend myself either.

My husband uses validation a lot, only because it takes the wind right out of her sails when she gets grumpy and accusatory. (His response would have looked a lot like what I wrote originally. He doesn't care at all when she gets bossy or accusatory - her bark is way worse then her bite and its his own way of "dismissing her" by just saying "OK"

Building off what you wrote:

"I can see why you're upset about the gun, I'd probably be worried as well if they came home with a story like that. I'm also upset the boys went into our closet without permission. Please be reassured knowing that the gun was never operable and certainly not readily dischargeable (and will be secured and out of reach). The kids are safe and I will have a frank discussion about it with them."


~DG

I agree, DG, and i like this approach.  I DO think she has a valid concern, and I am not sure having the lawyer only respond is the best way (although I may not convince my dh of that).  I am sure if my dd came home with a story like that from dad's, I would be concerned.  Of course, I would probably just ask him what was going on with it rather than being accusatory.

I will see which route dh decides to take.  I can only let him know the ideas--he has to pick the path.

I was listening to a parent coordinator talk about teaching parents to email--she teaches them to only write facts.  She tells them if, in their emails, they put an opinion, the other parent has a right not to respond.  Otherwise, the other parent is supposed to respond in 24 hours.  That would be a great rule to go by with these high conflict parents!

[DreamGirl]

I was listening to a parent coordinator talk about teaching parents to email--she teaches them to only write facts.  She tells them if, in their emails, they put an opinion, the other parent has a right not to respond.  Otherwise, the other parent is supposed to respond in 24 hours.  That would be a great rule to go by with these high conflict parents!

I think ALL divorcing parents should have to take lessons in how to communicate. Most of us suck at it at first. (Including me!) I used to be pretty bossy/controlling towards my exH when it came to parenting. I learned the hard way that just because he let me do that while we were married, didn't mean he'd let me while we were divorced.   

[Matt]

If there is even a small chance that the other party could view this as a criminal matter, and you write back anything that could be seen as admitting a crime, it would be very wise to consult a criminal defense lawyer first.  He will probably tell you to say nothing.

Two big considerations here:  Safe kids and staying out of jail.

Safe kids = secure the gun.

Staying out of jail = comply with the law and say nothing that could be used as evidence against you.

[sanemom]

Here's the law:

"A person commits an offense if a child under 17 gains access to a readily dischargeable firearm and the person with criminal negligence failed to secure it or left it in a place to which the person knew or should have known the child would gain access."

The gun is nowhere near "readily dischargeable."  It has a trigger lock, and the closest thing we have to ammo anywhere in the house is a bag of marshmallows.   

[DreamGirl]

Staying out of jail is important as well.  

Protecting yourself is important.

Again, if you are abiding by the law (which you are) and you simply validate the other parent's concern, I don't think you're necessarily opening yourself up to a criminal case indefinitely.

You can't control her.

If you dismiss her and ignore her - she could go file criminal charges.

If you respond and say "you're right to be concerned and I'm taking the necessary precautions" - she could go file criminal charges.  

Your hubs gets to respond to her how he sees fit. If he's afraid of her and what she might do as far as a criminal charge, by all means - he can contact his attorney to handle it. That's a good route because him telling her that it's not criminal what he's done will have a far greater effect.

The way my own husband handles it is conducive of who he is. He knows that he handles his firearms correctly and responsibly - and he knows that she's barking in the wind when she demands that he do something he's already doing.

So his choice is to validate the concern but still dismiss the concern - which in turn helps difuse the conflict rather then adding to it.

[sanemom]

Your hubs gets to respond to her how he sees fit. If he's afraid of her and what she might do as far as a criminal charge, by all means - he can contact his attorney to handle it. That's a good route because him telling her that it's not criminal what he's done will have a far greater effect.

The way my own husband handles it is conducive of who he is. He knows that he handles his firearms correctly and responsibly - and he knows that she's barking in the wind when she demands that he do something he's already doing.

So his choice is to validate the concern but still dismiss the concern - which in turn helps difuse the conflict rather then adding to it.

It looks like DH is going to let the attorney handle it--I gave him all of your ideas.  He said he would be open to them if the tone of her letter was less accusatory.  Honestly, I think he is just done with her.  She crossed a line last summer, and he is just not willing to even try to deal with her directly anymore.  I don't know if this is temporary or permanent--he may be thinking we will just keep the attorney on retainer to distance ourselves from her drama and BS.

[BentNotBroken]

I let my attorney handle the gun accusations (there have been several) because it is a hot-button issue with a huge amount of ignorance around it. Both by gun-owners and anti-gun people.

Tell hubs to make sure the firing pin is indeed removed from the rifle if you tell anyone that is the case. If he is unsure, there are resources online that have the breakdown of the rifle in text and graphics to make sure this is done.

To play devils advocate, the argument that there is no ammunition in the house is countered by the claim that a child could bring a bullet in from anywhere. As if there are just bullets lying around all over the "blood-soaked streets"

Be safe, not only physically, but legally.

[tog]

I'm with your DH. Does she have a legitimate concern? Maybe. But the way of handling it would lead me to take a hard line with her too rather than trying to appease her fears.

In our case, even if SO did try to appease and reassure her, she would still use it against him, so what would be the point? It would just cause her to feel like she had the upper hand and reinforce this abusive means of communicating her concerns.

[ForeverDad]

The boys found DH's empty rifle he had when he was 12 years old.   His dad brought it to him over Christmas.  The boys (14 and 12) went into our closet when they weren't supposed to and found it and told BPD mom.

This is an issue I face with my ex:  My son tells me very little about what happens at her home yet she somehow, within an hour of picking up our son, manages to call complaining about something that occurred on my time.  It's been that way for years.  I only learn things that happen to slip out.  I'm sure it's not that way with his mother.

Sorry, I don't know any wonderful way to fix it.  But do the boys know how they've been trained over the years?  Things they don't tell father but somehow always get divulged to mother?  They may not even know they're being interrogated or grilled or singing - or do they?

Are they old enough to have a sit-down discussion that by withholding things from him that they later tell to their mother they're enabling their mother to blindside their father with complaints, exaggerations and allegations?

[sanemom]

The boys found DH's empty rifle he had when he was 12 years old.   His dad brought it to him over Christmas.  The boys (14 and 12) went into our closet when they weren't supposed to and found it and told BPD mom.

This is an issue I face with my ex:  My son tells me very little about what happens at her home yet she somehow, within an hour of picking up our son, manages to call complaining about something that occurred on my time.  It's been that way for years.  I only learn things that happen to slip out.  I'm sure it's not that way with his mother.

Sorry, I don't know any wonderful way to fix it.  But do the boys know how they've been trained over the years?  Things they don't tell father but somehow always get divulged to mother?  They may not even know they're being interrogated or grilled or singing - or do they?

Are they old enough to have a sit-down discussion that by withholding things from him that they later tell to their mother they're enabling their mother to blindside their father with complaints, exaggerations and allegations?

ForeverDad,

I am just cutting and pasting from the Parenting after the Split board where my dh DID have a sit down with the boys.  They were crying and apologetic, and one of them said, "I am sorry this got so blown out of proportion."  I hope that means they are starting to get what their mom does.


The skids went into our closet and accidentally found an unloaded gun that DH had been keeping (it was his when he was a kid) to surprise DSS14 on his upcoming birthday.  They didn't tell DH they found it, but they told their BPD mom.  You can imagine the accusations and drama that ensued from BPD mom.  DH pulled the kids aside.  He explained that he would have been angry if he had known that they went into our closet, but now he is angry AND hurt.  He is hurt because they didn't tell him, but they told their mom.  He explained how a few years ago they were keeping secrets from him left and right (at BPD mom's request), and although they were not trying to hurt him, it DID hurt him.  He told them that he had hoped they were past the secret-keeping stage with him.  He told him that now that their mom knows about the gun, he is being accused of a crime, and he has to go through lawyers.  He explained that we don't usually like to tell them when these kinds of things happen because we want to protect them, but they needed to know this time.  He also told them that he was planning to talk with their mom about the gun in the future, but this was not how he had wanted it to come up, and he asked them not to tell her what the gun was for so he could have that "adult conversation with her at the right time."  I don't like telling them to keep a secret from their mom, but I understand why.  Then I wonder how much is too much to tell them.  Their dad told them not to worry--it would be ok.  The conversation was all calm and their were big hugs and wrestling at the end.

[tog]

This happens with SS13 as well.  STBX used to send nasty emails about all he told her, now she doesn't because the co-parent counselor is copied in and she has told them both not to entertain SS talking about the other parent. About a year ago, SS complained to his GAL about being interrogated, but it still happens. I'm pretty sure he just tells her stuff to get her off his back. It seems to happen now mostly when he's in danger of getting in trouble himself and he throws SO under the bus instead.

We have talked to him, but he still gives in to her pressure... .  I guess it's survival.

[ForeverDad]

This happens with SS13 as well... .  We have talked to him, but he still gives in to her pressure... .  I guess it's survival.

Same with my S10.  He asks me for more time but tells everyone else he like 50/50.  It's a barrier I haven't overcome.  I've assured S10 that his GAL and others just want to know how he feels, but the decision won't be his and will include other factors.  (Initial report is already submitted to court and I've heard it's favorable more or less, though my lawyer still blew a cork.)

[tog]

We are finding that as SS gets older and more focused on his friends and less on his mother (age appropriately) he wants to be with us more. Not yet willing to tell the court that, but it's obvious that he loves being at our place.  I'd bet the same happens with your son.

[sanemom]

Lawyer responded:

"This entire thing is nonsense.  There is nothing in the law that prohibits the keeping of legally registered firearms.  BPD mom is clearly trying to provoke you and create problems where there are none."

I think the lawyer gets her.   

[DreamGirl]

I think the lawyer gets her.  

Sounds like it.