Control of the phone

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I think you are confusing shame and guilt.

Guilt can be a healthy emotion, one that makes us regulate our own behavior-if we feel guilty about something, we are less likely to do it again. Guilt is feeling bad about what we DID. Shame, on the other hand, is feeling bad about who you ARE at your core. Not healthy.

SS does not feel enough guilt about lying. He does it easily and without compunction. He has told lies that have gotten my SO in significant legal hot water, in order to please his mother. On the other hand, he feels guilty if he loves his father, because it displeases his mother.  So he has a confused notion of guilt. Once we started pointing out how his lying and colluding with his mother hurt his father (which I don't think he considered), he began coming out of the alienation. Before then, "taking the high road" protected him from the guilt that was necessary to start looking at things realistically.

I think he SHOULD feel guilty for how he treats his father. Lack of guilt is the hallmark of an alienated child and it's very unhealthy. It's rude not to return someone's phone calls and it's wrong to tell lies that get someone in trouble just to please someone else and save your own hide. If he doesn't learn that, he is in for a world of hurt in all of his relationships, as well as a lot of SHAME about who he is.

My SO holding him accountable for failing to return phone calls is not shaming him, unless he says he is a bad person for doing so, which he doesn't. What he said was, "I left you some text messages this week," and SS said, "Sorry, Dad," and seemed to feel guilty. If he had truly just lost his phone, why would he feel guilty? Because he's colluding in something with his mother that he knows is wrong.

We can't protect these kids from the guilt they feel, but we can help them know when the guilt is healthy and when it isn't. And never holding them accountable won't teach that. If we feel sorry for them because their mothers put them in loyalty binds, then we can't help them come out of them.

JMHO.

[tog]

I think you are confusing shame and guilt.

Guilt can be a healthy emotion, one that makes us regulate our own behavior-if we feel guilty about something, we are less likely to do it again. Guilt is feeling bad about what we DID. Shame, on the other hand, is feeling bad about who you ARE at your core. Not healthy.

SS does not feel enough guilt about lying. He does it easily and without compunction. He has told lies that have gotten my SO in significant legal hot water, in order to please his mother. On the other hand, he feels guilty if he loves his father, because it displeases his mother.  So he has a confused notion of guilt. Once we started pointing out how his lying and colluding with his mother hurt his father (which I don't think he considered), he began coming out of the alienation. Before then, "taking the high road" protected him from the guilt that was necessary to start looking at things realistically.

I think he SHOULD feel guilty for how he treats his father. Lack of guilt is the hallmark of an alienated child and it's very unhealthy. It's rude not to return someone's phone calls and it's wrong to tell lies that get someone in trouble just to please someone else and save your own hide. If he doesn't learn that, he is in for a world of hurt in all of his relationships, as well as a lot of SHAME about who he is.

My SO holding him accountable for failing to return phone calls is not shaming him, unless he says he is a bad person for doing so, which he doesn't. What he said was, "I left you some text messages this week," and SS said, "Sorry, Dad," and seemed to feel guilty. If he had truly just lost his phone, why would he feel guilty? Because he's colluding in something with his mother that he knows is wrong.

We can't protect these kids from the guilt they feel, but we can help them know when the guilt is healthy and when it isn't. And never holding them accountable won't teach that. If we feel sorry for them because their mothers put them in loyalty binds, then we can't help them come out of them.

JMHO.

[Matt]

SS does not feel enough guilt about lying. He does it easily and without compunction. He has told lies that have gotten my SO in significant legal hot water, in order to please his mother. On the other hand, he feels guilty if he loves his father, because it displeases his mother.  So he has a confused notion of guilt. Once we started pointing out how his lying and colluding with his mother hurt his father (which I don't think he considered), he began coming out of the alienation. Before then, "taking the high road" protected him from the guilt that was necessary to start looking at things realistically.

I think he SHOULD feel guilty for how he treats his father. Lack of guilt is the hallmark of an alienated child and it's very unhealthy. It's rude not to return someone's phone calls and it's wrong to tell lies that get someone in trouble just to please someone else and save your own hide. If he doesn't learn that, he is in for a world of hurt in all of his relationships, as well as a lot of SHAME about who he is.

Let me make a suggestion:  Start a thread around exactly these issues - SS lying, treating his father badly, compromising his own ethics in order to placate his mom.

The reason I'm suggesting this is that the phone issue - which most of us deal with - is one thing.  But these behaviors you're describing here - lying etc. - aren't really about the phone per se.  I bet there are other situations where these same behaviors happen, that have nothing to do with the phone.

So I'm thinking maybe you could focus a thread around SS's behaviors - and interactions with both parents - and maybe that thread would shed some light that this "phone stuff" thread hasn't... .  

[tog]

I can do that... .  but this is about the phone. He lies and says he lost his phone when what we believe is happening is that he isn't allowed to call or text my SO lest he get his mother's displeasure. So in our case, it's more about his lying to protect/please her than it is about concrete details about phones and court orders.

As soon as he feels strong enough to stand up to her, I have no doubt he will once again spontaneous text my SO (and me) to tell us stuff that's going on in his life.

[Matt]

I can do that... .  but this is about the phone. He lies and says he lost his phone when what we believe is happening is that he isn't allowed to call or text my SO lest he get his mother's displeasure. So in our case, it's more about his lying to protect/please her than it is about concrete details about phones and court orders.

As soon as he feels strong enough to stand up to her, I have no doubt he will once again spontaneous text my SO (and me) to tell us stuff that's going on in his life.

It's about the phone.

It's about Mom.

It's about Dad.

It's about you.

Mostly it's about your stepson.

Sometimes we can look at the same issue from different angles, and see it differently.

So it's perfectly valid to ask, "How can we deal with these #$%&ing phone issues?"

It's also perfectly valid to ask, "How can we help SS develop a stronger character - be more honest - in the face of pressures from a disordered parent?"

[DreamGirl]

I think that you're assessment of guilt and shame are pretty spot on.

Shame is also a verb, and it's a tool that a BPDparent uses quite effectively on the kids, usually in resulting in the child feeling ashamed/guilty (i.e. for not calling her or for *gasp* calling the other parent).  Don't you love me enough to call? If you love me, why are you calling Dad?

I see your SO's point of view - absolutely. His son is letting his mom take over his life. He also does not posess the skill set (yet) to differentiate who/what is healthy.

Healthy levels of guilt are absolutely integral to learning accountability.

Just like everything else, the effects of his mother's parenting has placed your stepson in an inherently different bracket of development - and probably helps explain the other behavior (lying, disorganization, loss of sense of self).

Here's a good article that discusses this: https://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a108.htm

I don't think what you did was "wrong''... .  and it worked. I just see an aspect and hope that you can be mindful of it. Shame/Guilt are very toxic to these kids with BPDparents. I'm also a big believer, like in your case, that you/we (as the healthy parents) are what is going to help them in reducing the risks.  Asking questions is good - and you did that - to help them verbalize what may be going on.

I just saw the "he felt guilty" and it's dear to my heart - my middle stepdaughters guilt/shame manifested itself into a pretty severe depression.  

[mamachelle]

tog

I've spent the past year with a behavior therapist coming to my house a few times a month to work specifically with SS 8 and 10 and also with all my kids for chores. so I've learned a lot in implementing and in reading and its a very fascinating aspect of parenting. It works but you need consistency, structure, and rewards.

So in this case i also think a behavior therapy hat is needed.

Look at it as a behavior you want to correct using a reward.

SS needs to check in every day now that he is 13.

Teens needs to check in every day. Soon it will be that he will be with teen friends and all behaviors described above are going to impact soon enough with friends and teen risk taking stuff.

A possible scenario for a 13 yo is $10 a week at start. Every day of 5 day off with mom that he fails to check in he loses $2. When he sees you he gets the cash.

I can't say if it will work but my kids all are motivated by cash and eventually it becomes habit. When it does, add in something else you need to fix to up the ante.

Good luck with this.

[tog]

Thanks. I think my SO prefers the path of least resistance... .  just allowing this to work itself out if it will. Any plan like that would most certainly become fodder for a court filing that my SO is "bribing" and "extorting" SS to call him and should allow it to be his choice.

I don't blame him. I too am tired of her condescending and abusive emails and if it means he doesn't talk to his son for 5 days, that's the price of a little peace.

[whirlpoollife]

Does the amount of calls or length of calls make any difference when the kids visit/talk to the GAL?

i.e., dad calls all the time for long times which in the GAL would view him as the "better" parent.

[mamachelle]

Whirpooloflife

In my case the GAL saw right through BPD dad. I had a GAL appointed 4 years afrer divorce when I filed a motion to have visitation suspended or supervised due to abuse and threats of my then DD9 and 11.

I took text messages he had sent my DD and photographed them out of her phone and xeroxed them to 8.5 x11 size and showed them to her.

I don't know details of your case but I think a good GAL would listen to the story and understand the issues with the phone.

[tog]

The GAL doesn't care. BPDmom is very good at making herself look blameless and just always insists that SS doesn't want to call his father. She does give him free access to the phone, she has just made clear to him that it upsets her if he talks to his father without her permission, and he won't tell anyone that, he's too protective of her. She's so good at creating noise that no one has the energy to sort through and see the truth.

All they will do is put in some clause in the order such as "each parent will speak to the child at 7 pm on the days he isn't with them," which will just be one more way for her to engage and control everything. She will call at 6:59 and make a huge production if he isn't available right away and then she will never be available when SO calls.  It will become another way to annoy/obstruct and we would like to minimize her opportunities for that.

[whirlpoollife]

As soon as kids are home from school, that's one of h's  calls.  One day we stayed outside.  Text from h, where are you why aren't kids picking up the phone, no answer from anyone etc. Then "are you ok?".    Sounds like he concerned? No its to cover up his fit of control that no one paid attention to.  All this in less than half an hour.

The GAL is bias toward dads, and h, unfortunatley, only because he's not an absentee dad.

I go to another area of house when kids are on phone with h because I get anxious listening to the , "yes, no, don't know , tell you later,uhhuh " converstion. I don't ask kids afterwards what was said. And go on from there for a couple hours till h calls again. Repeat.

[ennie]

 BPD mom insists on the kids being alone when they speak with her when at our home, which is a little tricky in the winter, as we have a small home.  The kids share a room, at least until next year, and the only rooms with closing doors in our home are the kids' and our bedrooms.  So if one child is in the room, there is not absolute privacy.  Mom INSISTS on absolute privacy.  But when the kids call from her home, she insists on speaker phone... .  in the past, the kids always used speaker phone, as it is easier for younger kids to hear and talk that way, and you could hear BPD mom saying, "Are they listening in?  Hide! They are trying to spy!  :)o not let them hear what you are saying!" This to a 3 or 7 year old who really could care less about all the cloak and dagger stuff, and who totally trusts us... .  but over the years, at least SD12 has bought into the idea that she needs total privacy with mom, and because mom does tell her "secrets" that she is told she cannot tell us, she probably does need privacy! LOL.   BPD mom brings this up over and over again--so we give the kids privacy, and then she will tell court mediators that the kids have to sneak out of the house at night to call her... .  when the reality is that they are free to call her if they are not trying to get out of homework or are in the middle of dinner, but because she tells them they must have TOTAL privacy, SD12 insists on calling outside where nobody can hear her.  It really is the height of absurdity, and we do nothing to address all of this.  

[tog]

SS13 just talks to her whenever and however he pleases. All seems to be on iMessage on his iPad nowadays. Who cares? Yet, he isn't allowed to speak to us at all unless it's through her and she approves (ie, it makes her look good, such as when they are on vacation).

Must be sad to be so insecure about your relationship with your children.