Natural Consequences vs Tough Love

[momontherun]

I keep hearing over and over again with pwBPD "tough love" doesn't work - "natural consequences" do... .  what is the difference between the two?

I see it as... .  

Theft:  Natural consequence - file a report ... .  Tough Love - Restriction

Slamming door: Natural Consequence - gets taken away for a few days... .  Tough Love - gets taken away for a few days

So you see, I am having a hard time distinguishing the difference.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[trainwreck4]

I too have been grappling with understanding. My understanding is for natural consequences to occur, we must take a passive role for these to take place. For example my BPDd15 refused to go to her grade 9 science class last year on a regular basis and the natural consequence was that she failed. I hope that helps!  This is like being dropped off into Oz as far as parenting goes. My BPDd15 refuses any kind of interference from me so natural consequences are easier for this situation I guess... .  

[Kate4queen]

Yes, like if your child is failing a class you explain why it will be a problem 'for them' and give them the information to make an informed decision. If they chose to ignore you, that's a natural consequence and you hope they'll learn from it.

Tough love might be you standing over them forcing them to do the work, or doing it for them, stopping them doing anything else until the work is done, which is basically you having to be the threatening monitoring disciplinarian.

It's hard to watch your kids fail, but sometimes you do more harm by enabling them.

[momontherun]

Ok I had to look each of them up and put personal examples of the "easy stuff"... .  

A Natural Consequence

These are the inevitable result of a child's own actions.

  Miss the school bus = miss school and have increased homework, automatic deduction on quizes/tests

  Don't do the homework = lower grade

  Treat people badly = they don't want to be around you

  Messy room = clean it or live with it

  Don't read the directions with a never before used tool = tool broken or warped

Logical Consequence

Logical consequences happen as a result of a child's action, but are imposed by the parent or caregiver. It is important to make sure

that logical consequences are reasonable and related to the problem, and to let both the child and the parent keep their self-respect.

  Using belongings inappropriately (ie throwing books) = lose them for a week

  Slam the bedroom door in anger = lose the door for a week

  Challenge restriction = another week gets added on

  Don't eat dinner = No dessert

  Don't check in (call or come home) = Less time allowed away

Tough Love

n.

The use of strict disciplinary measures and limitations on freedoms or privileges, as by a parent or guardian, as a means of fostering

responsibility and expressing care or concern.

Same as logical consequence?


So if tough love/logical consequences are the same and does more harm then what? wait for a natural consequence and overlook everything else?

[trainwreck4]

Unfortunately, I am unable to ignore some of her behaviors. Example, she had her music blasting late at night and refused to turn it off. 3 younger sibs are sleeping as its a school night. My consequence was that I turned off her hydro for the night. This was actually a result of me not wanting to fight with her... .    Mom of the year award is NOT coming to me!  

[Tightrope walker]

momontherun

   I find this topic very timely for me.  I think that the difference between a logical consequence and tough love is in the definition

     

The use of strict disciplinary measures and limitations on freedoms or privileges,

   My mother is always quoting that tough love should be used.  But I think that often tough love has been for many an excuse to use punishment. 

   A person is arrested for stealing items that amount to about $900.00.This is the person's first offense.  They call asking for someone to bail them out. How would the family react with the 3 options?

   A Natural Consequence:  Let the Judicial system decide the actions.  If the person doesn't have the money themselves, they remain

      in jail.

   Logical Consequence: Provide bail and then have the individual pay back the money. Have them sign a contract or give you something of theirs that is of value.

   Tough Love:  Let them stay in jail and deny any further contact with them, until "they learn their lesson."

   What is difficult for me personally, is that I find that the logic of a person with BPD does not see the same natural consequence that I perceive.  My D25 is practices severs self-harm.  My perception is different than hers.

   Mine:

   Natural Consequence: Embarrassing scars, Wounds are ugly and bleed, People react negatively when they notice it.

   Hers:

   Natural Consequence: Release from stress, Pleasure and Guilt, Attention from Medical Staff (stitches, infections, etc)

   Sometimes it appears that logical consequences are logical to me, but not to her!

                                           Tightrope Walker

 

   

   

   

                           

   

[cfh]

tightropewalker

I agree that the person with BPD does not perceive their actions or the consequences the same way we do.

My ds is in jail for the second time.  We had told him previously that if he violated probation we would not bail him out.

We do not consider that tough love nor does he, it's just the natural consequence. 

But he also isn't terribly unhappy in jail. He says being in jail is easier than trying to get through the day on the outside.

He's not embarrassed, he's fairly comfortable and he feels safe.  He is scared about what his sentence

will be and his biggest fear is that if he has to go into long term treatment in lieu of jail that he won't be able to do it.  Logical consequence=he goes back to jail.

As far as "learning his lesson" well he hasn't mastered the art of that one yet.

If this same situation happened to my nonBPD son he'd be a wreck.  He would be so careful not to do anything to violate his parole and would be the model citizen.  Would learn his lesson and never repeat it.

[lbjnltx]

This is how I differentiate between the natural consequences and tough love.

Tough love is another layer of consequences imposed on top of the natural consequence.

ie... .  my d gets in trouble at school and is required to go to ISS (in school suspension)=

      natural consequence.

      Because my d got in trouble at school  I ground her from hanging out with friends after school=tough love

Sometimes the natural consequence will be equal to tough love...

ie... .  my d lies to me so I don't trust her=natural consequence

      My d wants to hang out w/a group of friends unsupervised by adults and I say "no"=tough love because she has broken trust =natural consequence

It is important to tie any consequence to the infraction as closely as possible for the best chance for them to "get it".  In each situation it is highly important to keep the responsibility where it belongs... .  with them. To do this I clearly state to my d what her responsibility is, let her know she has not taken care of that responsibility and has not EARNED the privilege... .  

I have found that staying out of situations that I am not involved in as much as possible helps keep the responsibility where it belongs.  If I am not involved the chances increase that my d will look at self instead of blaming me... .  as in the ISS situation. 

These are parenting skills for all parents of all teens... .  for teens who suffer with disorders the process can be much more difficult... .  yet they are still valid. 

lbj

[cfh]

When my ds was younger it was very difficult to tie the consequence with the trouble because he had no friends or social life.

We had one particular situation where we really struggled with what consequence we should impose.

He had gone on a 3 day field trip with his school (my mistake was to let him go in the first place because I knew he would get kicked out). On the second day they called be to come pick him up asap as he had been given 3 chances to behave appropriately and he had used them up.

So I picked him up and he was so relieved because the stress had been too much for him and he just fell apart.

To most the natural consequence would have been missing out on the fun of the field trip but he was just happy to be home.  There was no privilege I could take away that would make any sense.

Just out of curiosity how would any of you handled this?

[qcarolr]

cfh - this is a hard one. To balance opening an opportunity to a child that has high anxiety (trying to normalize the experience) with them getting overwhelmed and having a meltdown.

The T for my gd, who has a lot of anxiety issues, wants me to help gd work through the anxiety of new situations ahead of time - not avoid them as that validates that the anxiety is 'right'. This is a hard one to figure out - but I do have some success with gd.

With DD it was so much harder. She was so secretive with her thoughts and feelings even as a young child - or more accurately did not have the tools to express her thoughts and feelings. Most likely a combination of her non-verbal LD and emotional/temperament issues. I did not get her level of anxiety, so could not work with her to figure out strategies to manage them and find success in the activity.

Finding success - feeling good about an accomplishment. So hard for our BPD kids.

Don't have any answers, only questions.

qcr  

[griz]

This is one I struggle with all the time.  Especially if it is something that I know has long range consequences such as not handing in school work.  Although I have learned to gently remind her by saying things like do you have anything due tomorrow, that is all I can do.  Especially since now she is in college and I have no contact with teachers.

TRW: I also struggle with the same issue with cutting.  I know it relieves her emotions however I feel the same way, ugly scars, risk of infection but none of this seems to matter to her.  She actually will tell me that she does not think it is a big deal and why am I concerned it is on her body.  I use to be like a 24hrs camera watching her for signs of cutting.  It is so sad to me that I have just given up.  I cannot stop her.  She will find a way to cut no matter what I do.  I was making myself crazy everytime I saw it so for my own sanity I had to resolve myself to not being able to help her with this.  It makes me very sad but yes, she will suffer the natural consequences of her actions. Unfortuneately the scars are on her arms and on my heart.

Griz

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[cfh]

qcarol

Though this happened almost 20 years ago I still think about it.  My ds was (is) a high anxiety child.  What your T says makes sense... .  help them work through the anxiety rather than avoid the situation. That it validates that the anxiety is "right" is interesting. I never thought of it that way.

One thing I learned was to volunteer to go on day field trips if they needed parents.  I would make sure that I was put in charge of other kids not my ds but I think my presence kept his anxiety down so that he could make better choices.  And then he could feel proud of those choices because I was not the one who was directly watching over him.

But they do grow up and go their own way!

All these years later my ds knows himself better and he knows that when he stays closer to his family his mind is less tangled. I can't ever have him live with us again but having his extended family around (modeling good behaviors) is a good thing for him.  Hoping the court sends him back here.

[Reality]

When my ds was younger it was very difficult to tie the consequence with the trouble because he had no friends or social life.

We had one particular situation where we really struggled with what consequence we should impose.

He had gone on a 3 day field trip with his school (my mistake was to let him go in the first place because I knew he would get kicked out). On the second day they called be to come pick him up asap as he had been given 3 chances to behave appropriately and he had used them up.

So I picked him up and he was so relieved because the stress had been too much for him and he just fell apart.

To most the natural consequence would have been missing out on the fun of the field trip but he was just happy to be home.  There was no privilege I could take away that would make any sense.

Just out of curiosity how would any of you handled this?

cfh,

A very tricky call and one we struggled with constantly.  Natural consequences with firm encouragement nonetheless meant my son lost high school credits every year.  Because he was so bright, we thought it wouldn't matter.  It did.  He became educationally isolated then socially isolated.  

I know I have said this zillions of times, but I still say that the young person needs to have a normal daily school/work routine.  Once that goes, BPD feeds on the isolation.  

Once a young person starts derailing, loud alarms should be ringing in the parents' ears.

My son's good looks, keen intellect and loving family could not contain the maelstrom, once the systemic derailment started... .  

So... .  in our case, natural consequences did not work.

Tricky... .  

Reality

[lbjnltx]

When my ds was younger it was very difficult to tie the consequence with the trouble because he had no friends or social life.

We had one particular situation where we really struggled with what consequence we should impose.

He had gone on a 3 day field trip with his school (my mistake was to let him go in the first place because I knew he would get kicked out). On the second day they called be to come pick him up asap as he had been given 3 chances to behave appropriately and he had used them up.

So I picked him up and he was so relieved because the stress had been too much for him and he just fell apart.

To most the natural consequence would have been missing out on the fun of the field trip but he was just happy to be home.  There was no privilege I could take away that would make any sense.

Just out of curiosity how would any of you handled this?

I think you are correct ... .  the natural consequence did take place... he missed out on the fun.  In this situation the lesson was learned right?  That he is not able to participate in these kind of activities due to his anxiety.

It was a lesson he needed to learn and you did the right thing by taking him out of a situation he was not able to handle.

No further action needed I would say... .  

The question is... .  how were future opportunities to go on these kind of trips handled?

[cfh]

He actually found it so stressful trying to be good that he did not have any fun and was really happy to be home in his own bed. Never wanted to go on another field trip again. And I had no choice... .  they insisted I take him home immediately.

Any future trips like that one were all disasters.  Though we had no formal dx at the time we spent a lot of time trying to prepare him for new situations, role play with him, coach him, practice behaviors with him but he was always asked to leave ahead of time.  He has almost no impulse control.

That continues to this day.  Every rtc or rehab or tc he has been in all have kicked him out after a certain amount of time.  Even the therapeutic boarding HS he was in... .  he walked out the day he turned 18 because they were getting ready to give him his walking papers.

So I continue my journey of accepting what is and to take care of myself.

[cfh]

Reality

I agree that a daily routine is so important especially for helping with mood regulation.  I think that is why my ds has been sounding so good when he calls and in his letters.

He's in jail and it's all about routine, everyone is treated the same. 

My ds has never had male friends and he is now surrounded by guys who are all in the same boat. I think he's actually enjoying the camaraderie.

And as far as natural consequences go they are very black and white in jail.

[momontherun]

Thank you guys for your input - I get the difference of it now. I guess the confusing thing is to me, I would administer a "logical consequence" and would be interpreted as such by ds11 - many times knowing what to expect but doing it anyway for attention away from ds4 and dd15 =  :)D15 would interpret it as "tough love" - too harsh of a consequence not understanding the intensity of her emotions especially when I would redirect ds4 to something more appropriate ie. hitting a wall with a spoon for noise = take away spoon and set up a "quiet" drum set out of unopened tp packages and a plastic "big" spoon while rather appropriate I think she would throw an accusation that I "yanked" the spoon from his hand although in reality we made a "trade"

I found myself asking an observer what they saw questioning myself in disbelief that her perception was/is so different, why is she taking this so hard? why the accusation - he wasn't in harms way. I even asked her once what she would do being at that age she "could" start having children... .  her response would be anywhere from "let him be as he isn't harming anyone" or "put his nose to the wall as he is disturbing others" which I would point out whichever it is, it has to be consistent so he would know what to expect.

Of course, now looking back in hindsight with dd15 when she was his age all the way up to when she was 7 I would use the distraction technique as it worked so well and everyone was "happy" At 7 yrs old it wasn't working so well so I researched and found 4 types of reinforcement seeking a new strategy:

Positive Reinforcement.  Think of it as adding something in order to increase a response. For example, adding a treat will increase the response of sitting; adding praise will increase the chances of your child cleaning his or her room. The most common types of positive reinforcement or praise and rewards, and most of us have experienced this as both the giver and receiver.

Negative Reinforcement. Think of negative reinforcement as taking something negative away in order to increase a response.  Imagine a teenager who is nagged by his mother to take out the garbage week after week.  After complaining to his friends about the nagging, he finally one day performs the task and to his amazement, the nagging stops.  The elimination of this negative stimulus is reinforcing and will likely increase the chances that he will take out the garbage next week.

Punishment. Punishment refers to adding something aversive in order to decrease a behavior. The most common example of this is disciplining (e.g. spanking) a child for misbehaving. The reason we do this is because the child begins to associate being punished with the negative behavior. The punishment is not liked and therefore to avoid it, he or she will stop behaving in that manner.

Extinction. When you remove something in order to decrease a behavior, this is called extinction. You are taking something away so that a response is decreased.

Now armed with this information, I couldn't bring myself to use punishment (spanking) as to me they would learn to be fearful much like I was growing up. I seldom used negative and have relied mostly on positive and extinction... .  no matter which one trying to use it as a "teaching" moment as kids are going to test rules and before long make bigger and bigger decisions. So most often, we would talk about whatever it was later after emotions weren't running so high with the main goal of not repeating the same behaviors.

This worked or at least I thought it worked until the "bigger" stuff came up with dd15 ... .  

Ran away to "save" a friend: Later I learned it was the other way around to the friend anyway: Hugged her when she came back, sent her to her room for the night then discussed how she could have helped her friend differently while keeping both of them safe and 2 weeks restriction... .  this worked as she hadn't done it again or at least yet. Oh yeah she was supposed to go to Japan for that summer to give her a taste of a different culture as she was so responsible and I thought she could handle it plus give her a taste of a more traditional family with my youngest sister. Needless to say she didn't get to go on top of everything else.

1st series of SI's: discussed how it wasn't safe and became fearful as she wouldn't talk about it which led me to surrendering: if you can't talk to me please find someone you can - whatever is going on with you this needs to stop. This began a series of checking in on her after being in her room or the bathroom 10 minutes creating more distrust, more secrecy. The accusations with children's services started as she told the school counselor she was abused/neglected at home as an explanation for it. I became on the defensive trying to figure out where this was coming from. She replaced this with stealing

Stealing: discussed how she could have done her chores to earn the money to buy whatever she said she knew that so I asked why? with a cold, heartless accusing look she said I wanted too. Reflexively, I slapped her and she left to stay with my sister til she felt safe to come home (took a week). When she came back home she went through 2 weeks restriction and a pocket search right before leaving a store. She went through youth court, was banned from the store for a year and did 30 hrs cws. With time, I began to trust her again and stopped the pocket search. We discussed how she could earn money, what would happen again if she stole again etc. Within a few months she was back to stealing again no matter who she was with this time not getting caught until all he## broke loose and only due to me wanting to find out everything she was up to. I was proud she took responsibility instead of denying it and told her so, I also reminded her she knew the consequences per our previous discussions and had to turn her in. She was compliant with the troopers and told him which item was from where and when (all over the place in 4 months: 32 objects from 15 different places).

2nd series of SI: again I begged her to talk with someone about this as whatever it is this is not normal or acceptable. I began searching her once a week. When I found a new one she would claim it was from previous - I tried to believe her yet knew better which made me more suspicious and took away all sharp objects I could find in her room, encouraged her to stop isolating herself - to be apart/interact with the family which this created more tension and more verbal attacks on ds11. I became a referee... .  divide, try to sort out what was going on, dish out restriction and try to discuss how could have handled it differently.

Then the rape, move and counseling (dd15 accepted - ds11 refused) with discussions of seeking help from others, a fresh start and my expectations of not stealing/si, correct distortions with ds11 (she isn't all bad)/dd15 (he isn't all bad), get back into sports to distract/expend built up energy, build up self esteem, give chores to earn money (start with age +$4 then for each chore not done - .25... .  whatever was left at the end of the week they got to keep), do stuff one on one as well as, together as a family etc. I thought all was well again until... .  

Sneaking Out: I found a "strange" flashlight and one of my body sprays by her window. Not wanting a fight and more denials I decided to leave them on the table hoping she would confess- every once in awhile I would examine the flashlight and wonder out loud where it came from and how lucky I am to have found it. I would stay up til 3-4am on the look out for dd15 sneaking out... .  she would want to spend the night with a friend to reconnect with them and if I was hesitant she would exclaim how well she was doing, deserved to be with her friends to get away from ds11 etc. I folded each time as I really didn't have any proof other than the objects and my guilt would take over until I let her go. I wasn't able to catch her red handed because she was going to her friends house to sneak out after that.

Secret 12 yr old "disturbed" boyfriend: I had no clue til his parents came over and confronted me while dd15 was at a volleyball tournament - we shared where we were at with our children, they let me read through all their pm's playing detective reading the scope of their relationship, the pregnancy scare she gave him, when/how they were meeting, acting like a fiend talking about getting high, how she was totally responsible for her brothers, how I could beat her in such a way to hide bruises, found naked pics she sent him which he forwarded to someone else etc. Just a totally different person... .  waaay blown out of proportion for what was going on. The boy was shocked how I am so different than her claims which opened all of us up to realize how something just wasn't right and brought up lots of questions. I searched her room looking for her si utensil and found her pot. I picked her up when she got back alerting her coaches to the pot (she did sign a contract to stay drug free while on the team) then brought her home to the boy and his parents in my living room... .  no way out - no escape. She answered all of our questions honestly (which we knew from the pm's), his parents brought up about the pot trying to find out how he got the money = theft/trading. I asked the same with dd15 - she admitted she stole money a little at a time so noone would notice and do the transaction on the bus (this other boy stole his mom's medical marijuana then sold it). I asked her to bring me everything she stole - the troopers were called in to "scare" them yet he was all business and said we needed intensive counseling so unless someone wanted to press charges he wasn't going to do anything. I gave him the stuff dd15 stole and the pot - he left telling me he would get back to me in a few days. The next day, we went to the 2 girlfriends homes that were involved in all of this to alert their parents reinforcing to dd15 this is not tolerated and to take personal responsibility for her actions. His parents liked the idea and felt he needed to do this too as she wasn't the only one using them. We told them this relationship was over and allowed them to say their good byes. I told her about trust, how I am afraid for her, this is not ok and I don't know what to do to help her. She gave me her small razor blade (from a pencil sharpener) and I just looked at her and asked hollowly how can we save you from yourself? She went to bed as she needed the rest for the next day and I couldn't look at her. The next day, I brought her to school so she didn't have to face the consequences alone. She cooperated with the counselor about when/how/who she got the pot, her punishment would be a 10 day suspension from volleyball, had to complete a 10 hour drug/alcohol class and do random locker checks. She accepted that. The counselor alerted me how her middle school counselor called him to check on her and her si. I admitted I don't know what to do and am at a place where if she is so unhappy to si I need to find somewhere else for her to live and if she wants to continue stealing I need to have her locked up maybe its best if she became a ward of he state. He asked me for an overview of what was going on so I told him. She remained composed taking it all in until this boy was mentioned then started to cry hysterically exclaiming how her life was over and had no will to live since she couldn't see him. I was shocked and couldn't believe it... .  their relationship was barely a month long albeit intense, none of this other stuff fazed her etc. We got her into the hospital that day then she went to the state hospital after 3 weeks and continued si then rtc after 2.5 months an well here we are.

Now knowing this whole BPD thing and further insight it explains so much yet reflecting back I am questioning how to parent, how to keep everything to a minimum and so clueless when it comes to dd15. Then since it didn't work out so well for her do I do the same for ds11 and hope for the best, get him in one deciding a consequence when its not a natural one?

I know I have done the best I could and each child (BPD or not) reacts differently to consequences positive, negative, logical or natural.  Maybe I am over analyzing all this like my mom says when I bring up how to go about these things when dd15 comes home and starts doing it all again... .  I just feel stuck and need an action plan to put in place so we are already doing it.

I was looking over the values based parenting... .  any of you use that technique? how does it work? does it help?

[trainwreck4]

Momontherun, I feel so sad for you!  It's so hard to figure out how to deal with our kids... .    All I can say to you, is I deal with these issues with one motive besides keeping my BPDd15 safe, and that is as follows: if things go really bad, and the worst happens, I need to be able to live with myself.  The only thing you can control in all of this is your reaction to these situations.  From what you described, you have made sure to do your duty as a parent!  Especially going with her to answer for her actions so she didn't have to be alone. How empathetic!  I think this makes us second-guess everything we do as parents, and it makes me angry at myself for doing that. I was always congratulated on my parenting before this and it shakes my confidence to be questioned at this stage in the game. You are an awesome mom and those kids are lucky to have you!

[lbjnltx]

Don't worry motr,

When transition time comes and the discussions get more focused on the home contract you will have an agreed upon plan that includes discipline and parenting strategies.

You are doing what you can and that's all you can do.

lbj

[momontherun]

Trainwreck4,  I am always right there with my kids so they don't have to stand alone and advocate for them well that is, if I know about it. Not to protect them but to hold their hand to reassure them I am right there with them as I am sure, many of you do as well. I am sure every parent goes through these things just our children are more drastic than the "norm" ... .  they don't call it the dreaded teen years for nothing  Where my guilt is mostly coming from and yours is too - correct me if I am wrong ... .  I am one of those that see a young child act out and the parents are oblivious I get enraged - have to breathe deeply, turn around and let it go... .  so full of judgements without knowing the story just seeing the interaction or lack there of... .  I have frequently said, if you want to know whats going on in a family then pay attention to the children... .  for the most part this does hold true.

Now my child acts out putting herself in dangerous situations doing everything she can to keep it from me, providing logical explanations when anyone of authority inquires then blame me for not protecting her ... .  I know I am preaching to the choir here   

I agree most things are second guessed especially when seeing a teen si, steal, be sexually promiscuous etc. not knowing the full story... .  I am the one shaking my head feeling sorry for the kid - if only the parents were involved or would do something - if they involve my kids how can I help? Go to the parents, raise questions and offer support as the story unfolds. Now I am the one people shake their heads at which leads me back to there has to be some kind of parenting to help dd15 as I would have to take over her body if I were anymore involved  imagine that one as I am sure many of you feel the same way hence the guilt, the questioning we are all familiar with.

I knew even when I started this topic - I knew it in my heart just not in my head... .  it was there once just forgotten/blurred.

Thanks lbj, I know and anticipating it ... .  this could be a very lengthy suffocating contract with lots of negotiating if I don't plan ahead... .  knowing myself, this could take some time     it took me 3 yrs to get my pet puppy contract down to 2 pages  although I care about them, they are not as important as my children. The "in your face" things are the theft, si and pot... .  ok I am willing to turn you in (respectively) - stand by your side to face up to it along with the consequences ... .  that's pretty easy well for now - i'll be fighting a whole new battle once she becomes of age.  Whats not is: school, friends, boyfriends, increased allegations, sneaking out, taking pills (she hates them), tired of counseling/monitoring etc... .  she uses guilt against me and is very good at it  - I know this yet fall for it almost every time.

DA*&!    This is where I need a boot in the butt... .  trying to clear up the confusion - looking back to get it in perspective as the moment is gone then looking ahead to whats not happened yet - only possibilities... .  I need to look in the now and not the "big picture" or i'll drive myself mad    ok I am going to my corner to lick my wounds forgiving myself  

Anyone else with this distortion?

[lbjnltx]

Dear motr,

I hope that you will check out the workshop on "Triggering, mindfulness, wisemind" that is currently here on the Supporting... Board.

Post any questions you may have.

Also... .  something to ponder... .  Radical Acceptance... .  

We can create and present opportunities for learning and change.  We can not orchestrate the outcome.

We need to learn to be satisfied with our end and not own their part.

Hope you find something in these words to help you move forward.

 

lbj

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[griz]

I am not sure if this falls under natural consequences, tough love or too tired to give a sh... .  t.

Everything has been going along fine. DD has been going to school, work and etc.  I have been keeping my boundary in place that if DD is not ready to leave at 7:15 she does not get a ride to class and has to walk from my office.  So far she has been late for the past two days but I haven't given in.  I am not making it as if it is a punishment, this is the rule and so since she was not ready the past two days on time I just drive to my office.  I don't say anything about her being late.

Yesterday DD came in with me, went to class and then went with a friend to work on a project after school.  She came home around 9pm and was in a great mood.  This morning I went in to see if she was almost ready to leave.  It was 7am and she was still sleeping.  I woke her and got the "my throat hurts and my head is killing me".  I said "ok, why don't you take some advil"... .  "no I can't go to school I don't feel well I promise I won't miss anymore days".  I just said good-bye and came to work.

Most of the drive I was angry and then I suddenly realized that I was very sad but I could not cry.  I just felt so very sad.  We are only two weeks into the semester.

Griz

[lbjnltx]

Dear griz,

I am in the same boat this morning... .  

D16 came in last night after going to her bf house for a bday party... .  came in at 9:10, good mood, and tired.

This morning... .  "I'm too tired to get up"... .  me: "if after school activities make you too tired to get up then they will have to be cut back"... .  "no... .  " Me:  "if you can't get up then you need more sleep. We can't change the school schedule, only your schedule"... .  no response... .  "are you getting up for school?"

"no" me:  "ok".

So, here I am... .  typing away... .  planning my day... .  

Am I upset?  No... .  I'm not the one missing school.  I'm not the one who will have to make up all the work from the classes I will  miss this morning.

What is my responsibility in this?  Most likely I will take her in later... .  probably around 9.  Today, when the school bell rings she will text me... .  "can I go... .  " and the answer will be "not today.  This afternoon will be spent doing makeup work and then going to bed early." her: "but I''m not tired." me: "you didn't earn the privilege of after school activities today" her: "i'll do my makeup work when I get home" Me:  "good, then you can work on earning the privileges for Thursday. I need you to get on the bus and come home."

I have been through this with her so many times I am well prepared.  It helps to remind myself that she has yet to fail a class, that looking towards tomorrow will motivate her to make up her work, and that we have had much success... .  

I hope you can let go of any ownership in your d's decisions... .  

 

lbj

[griz]

thanks lbjnltx:

I needed that little pep talk.  Although it was her decision I was still wrestling with, did I do the right thing? should I have forced her to go?  Am I a terrible mother?

I sent my dh a text message when I was at work that just said, You may have noticed that DD did not get up for class.  If you would like you may offer her a ride on your way to work PERIOD. 

Griz

[momontherun]

Awesome Griz, reinforcing the limit you set with her - what your willing/unwilling to do = logical consequence/tough love

If she fails a class or gets kicked out due to her actions = natural consequence

There is only so much we can do- something most of us grapple with day to day.

Thanks for the reminder of the workshop lbj - I started to look into it then got sidetracked with this. Absolutely! Something I remind dd15 to do - only own whats yours now my turn to practice it