custody chances?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I have read a fair amount of what influences custody orders.  I am uncomfortable with only seeing my kids once or twice a week.  I have been working to repair my damaged/destroyed marriage for some time now, giving in ways I probably shouldn't.  Long story short, I would like to know what other people have experienced when it comes to asking for custody agreements.  There is way too much baggage to explain my entire backstory here but some of the highlights/lowlights of my situation that could/should affect custody are as follows:

kids: 2,5,10 y/o (boy, boy, girl)

I am the dad.

My wife... .  I think has BPD or at minimum other issues.

I am the only one employed.

She is a stay at home mom. (5 yo just turned 5... .  is still in preschool)

She has a child from a previous marriage.  Her ex sees his D13, one overnight/week + every other weekend.

we've been married almost 11 years.

She has been physically abusive toward me (photo documented... not reported to police)

Lots of verbal abuse.

I had an affair that ended almost 3 years ago.

I believe it is fair to say she has been having an emotional affair for the past 1.5 years ongoing.

I have been mostly sleeping at her parents' house since before Thanksgiving.  This arrangement is so she won't take the kids out of the family home (she did that and then pushed me to swap places so they would be in their home).

She has refused to give me overnights or regular visitation.

I have been a good and active father for the entirety of my childrens' lives (and before to my step-daughter).

I don't drink... .  don't smoke... .  don't spend money... .  don't yell... .  don't hit anybody... .  no history of mental illness diagnosed or otherwise.

Never arrested.

She has a typical BPD childhood + eating disorder.

Nobody has filed any paperwork.

We may possibly still reconcile.

so... .  questions to the panel:

If mom and dad can't agree on custody, what is the court likely to order?

What can I do to improve my chances?

[thefisherman]

I have read a fair amount of what influences custody orders.  I am uncomfortable with only seeing my kids once or twice a week.  I have been working to repair my damaged/destroyed marriage for some time now, giving in ways I probably shouldn't.  Long story short, I would like to know what other people have experienced when it comes to asking for custody agreements.  There is way too much baggage to explain my entire backstory here but some of the highlights/lowlights of my situation that could/should affect custody are as follows:

kids: 2,5,10 y/o (boy, boy, girl)

I am the dad.

My wife... .  I think has BPD or at minimum other issues.

I am the only one employed.

She is a stay at home mom. (5 yo just turned 5... .  is still in preschool)

She has a child from a previous marriage.  Her ex sees his D13, one overnight/week + every other weekend.

we've been married almost 11 years.

She has been physically abusive toward me (photo documented... not reported to police)

Lots of verbal abuse.

I had an affair that ended almost 3 years ago.

I believe it is fair to say she has been having an emotional affair for the past 1.5 years ongoing.

I have been mostly sleeping at her parents' house since before Thanksgiving.  This arrangement is so she won't take the kids out of the family home (she did that and then pushed me to swap places so they would be in their home).

She has refused to give me overnights or regular visitation.

I have been a good and active father for the entirety of my childrens' lives (and before to my step-daughter).

I don't drink... .  don't smoke... .  don't spend money... .  don't yell... .  don't hit anybody... .  no history of mental illness diagnosed or otherwise.

Never arrested.

She has a typical BPD childhood + eating disorder.

Nobody has filed any paperwork.

We may possibly still reconcile.

so... .  questions to the panel:

If mom and dad can't agree on custody, what is the court likely to order?

What can I do to improve my chances?

[scraps66]

I'd suggest first getting familiar with what is used in your state to determine custody, what is the criteria.  Then get some sense of what posture is practiced in your courthouse, pro-mom/dad, is 50/50 now the default situation for custody, etc.  Expect to get no credit for your good behavior and expect to have a difficult time highlighting and suing the information on wife unless you have something like a custody evaluation done.   Also some good info. at ":)eltaBravo."

The hurdles you will have as I see it is the stay at home mom part and having a 2yo pre-schooler in the house.  Failry long marraige and you cold stand to pay a significant amount of support and alimony.  Can she work, is she educated or trained?  Fortunatley for me my uBPDx went back to work after separation.  But two of my L's told me I was lucky.  (True testament to the broken-ness of the system.)  In many cases here you'll read how the SAHM uBPD stretches things out to not work even when given all the opportunities in the world to go back to work.

Assume you are documenting the behaviors?  IN my case, custoyd was fairly easily determined at 50/50 by threatening my ex with a custody evaluation.  It has been an uphill struggle since then to maintain 50/50, but I did manage to get shared parenting.       

[tog]

It really depends a lot on where you live, I think. In my state the default is 50/50 if both parents are OK with it. In your case, of course, she will NOT be OK with it and will most likely want  99% her and 1% you. So you should get a good attorney and ask for more than you want. File for primary custody and time knowing that you will agree to less. In fact, if I were you, I would file for visitation now if you are officially separated. The longer anything goes on, the harder it is to change it. This has worked in our favor... .  since my SO and his stbxw have had 50/50 since they separated 4 years ago, the court has been reluctant to change it despite her outrageous allegations of child abuse.

In some states, the mother bias is strong still and you will like get no more than every other weekend and 1 night in between without a long-term battle.

[scraps66]

Says no paperwork has been field, so not separated.  BUT, you could spend productive time right now coming up with a parenting plan explaingni the rulse of engagement, parenting times, etc.  if she's withholding now, you need that in place before you choose to "physically" separate.  That will show that you in no way abandoned your children.  Just in case the living arrangements ahve to change.  Regardless, having a parenting plan drawn up - by you and not an attorney who will charge you $$, would be a good thing. 

[marbleloser]

Get back in the marital home FIRST! NOW! If she takes the kids,file for divorce,ask for the kids be returned to the marital home(with you),and ask for temporary exclusive use of the home so she can't move back in.You've made a big mistake moving out and spending nights away from your children.Get back in there now! She can claim abandonment with you leaving the marital home.

[Matt]

Good inputs from everybody.  This is a huge question you're asking, and one that lots of members want to explore... .  

One thing to consider is talking to some attorneys.  That doesn't mean "retaining" one, which costs thousands of $.  And it doesn't mean filing anything with the court.  You can take those steps whenever you decide to.  But for now, you can just talk with as many attorneys as you want, and ask questions like everybody here is saying - how exactly the process works where you live, and what options you might have, and what outcome is most likely.

Some attorneys give a free initial consultation.  Some charge by the hour.  Some might pressure you for a retainer, but you don't have to do that til you're sure.

Look for an attorney who has experience in cases like yours, and maybe knows something about BPD and how it changes the way a case works.  You can learn more about that yourself by reading "Splitting" by William A. Eddy, or reading his web site, www.highconflictinstitute.com/.

In the meantime, there are some things you can do that will help, whatever path you take.  Like spending as much time with your kids as possible, and listening to them carefully.  Spend one-on-one time with each kid, so they can express themselves without competing for your attention.  Think about what each kid is needing right now - help with homework, a hug, exercise, whatever - and look for ways to provide for each kid's unique needs.  Don't think "That's their mom's job." about anything!

Be involved in every part of their lives - school, doctor visits, activities, etc. - and make sure you know all the people in their lives - their teachers, doctor, soccer coach, etc.  Talk with those people as much as you can, about your kids, and listen to their ideas.  (My lawyer told me, "At some point you might be asked the names of the kids' teachers.  Make sure you can answer that."  Sure enough, under oath, I was asked the kids' teachers' names - not just at that time, but in past years too.  I had asked them to remind me, and I was able to answer - it was like a test and I passed, but I probably wouldn't have if I hadn't been warned it was coming.)

Counseling... .  I made an appointment and talked with the school counselor when we separated.  S8 and D10 at that time.  The counselor knew the kids way better than I thought, and was eager to help.  Not "Their mom is crazy!" but "The kids are under a lot of stress right now and I'm wondering if you could keep an eye on them."  She also recommended a private-practice counselor - her predecessor at the school - and I took the kids for counseling - not as a "solution" to a "problem", just as a resource for them.  (By the way, I also saw a counselor myself, to help me deal with the stress, and that helped a lot.)

About likely outcomes of the custody case... .  

Way too many factors for anybody to say for sure.  (I'm not an attorney, and nobody here can give you legal advice.  Just what we learned along the way.)

Most states have several criteria that judges are supposed to consider.  You can probably find them online, or from an attorney.  If not, look at the ones used by Minnesota - 9 criteria - because those are the basis for many other states.  Stuff like ":)oes each parent support the child's relationship with the other parent?" and ":)oes each parent provide a safe and clean home?" - obvious stuff mostly.  Consider how you rank on each of these factors, and what you could do to rank better.  Think 90% about how you can be, and be seen as, an excellent parent, and 10% about factual stuff you can show that isn't best about your wife's parenting.  (And also be prepared to acknowledge what she's good at.)

A few more thoughts about meeting with attorneys... .  

Some attorneys seem to find it easier to lower your expectations than to meet them.  One way to evaluate them is to decide in advance what your objectives are - write them down - and share them with each attorney.  No lawyer will make you any guarantees, but notice which ones give you clear ideas about how to achieve your objectives, and which ones spend their time talking you into lowering them.

Hope this helps!

Matt

[DreamGirl]

I think that your wife is telling you how she wants custody in your current situation:

Her to be the on-site parent 100% of the time and you to be solely financially responsible in that.

Is that the best case scenario?

Absolutely not. Not for anybody. Not for the kids (they have a right to two active parents), not for you (who loves his children and should be able to be a part of their life), and not for her either (there is a lot of stress in having 3 children fulltime - bottom line is her coping skills are very limited).

If you had it exactly the way you wanted (in a divorce situation - I know your best outcome is to stay married) what would that look like?

What do you think is the best scenario for your kids?

50/50?

EOWE for you? for her?

Her getting a job and putting them in daycare? Does she have job skills? Can she hold down a job?

What are your thoughts on what it is that you want/think is best?

~DreamGirl

[ForeverDad]

Unless she can convince the court otherwise with abuse allegations against you, you will see your kids.  How much?  Minimum of course is alternate weekends and probably some time in between, such as what her older daughter's father has.  I get the feeling that court may be inclined to match your parenting time to her older child's parenting time.  Courts like simple solutions, takes little effort to figure things out.

Your challenge is to become a parent with as much parenting time and responsibility as possible, not just the default minimum.  It is best to get as much as you can from the very start.  After that initial order it will be an uphill struggle for anything more than that.  I recall my lawyer told me to stay quiet, likely he was fearful I might sabotage my own case, but that meant stbEx's allegations and pattern of behaviors, both adult and parenting, weren't strongly addressed then.  After the judge asked only for our work schedules, I walked out with alternate weekends and a brief evening in between.  Astounding insight, huh?

Two YEARS later I managed to reach a settlement for 50/50 Shared Parenting.  Her history of majority time was the big factor limiting me then.  Another two years and court changed custody to me due to the continuing conflict.  Another two year and I'm back in court again seeking majority time due to the continuing conflict.

Yes, a custody evaluation may recommend more time, but that could be a year or two before any changes are implemented.  In my case the CE report recommended my stbEx immediately lose her temp custody but court ignored it and just moved on to the next step in our 2 year divorce process.

Yours is probably considered a medium length marriage.  Alimony risk could be as much as half your marriage length, though usually it is less.  So much depends upon your state, the typical policies of your family court and the judge's "judicial discretion".  I had been marriage 15 years when we separated.  It was nearly 18 when we settled on Trial Morning.  She got alimony for 1/6 of that 18 years, so apparently the marriage length clock kept ticking in my case while the stbEx obstructed the divorce.  My lawyer had estimated 7-9 months, it was 23.5 months from filing to final decree, we had to check off every single step in the court's check list.

Alimony in most states these days is morphing in transitional support with the purpose to provide financial assistance so the disadvantaged spouse can get established post-marriage, find a job, get career training, get a degree (no, not 6 or 8 year degrees, just 2 years or so), etc.

She may claim the upper hand due to affairs but (1) most states these days have No Fault divorces that ignore adult behaviors and (2) courts generally ignore incidents older than 6 months.  Your example was years ago, so the court should ignore it even though she of course probably won't.

[thefisherman]

Is there agreement that I need to move back into the house as soon as possible with or without consulting an attorney?

I know my kids teachers.  I am their soccer coach (and know their other coaches).  I took my 5 y/o to the dentist this past monday to have a filling done.  I know their doctor (and dentist).  I take them to swimming lessons.  I drive for field trips.  I check homework when it isn't done and I am there. 

I do work fulltime.

She stopped working 3.5 years ago.  She was a part-time paralegal and has a bachelors degree (from the same university as me).  She quit.  Got pregnant.  hasn't looked for another real job since (and hasn't held a job since, period). 

She is a very active parent.  She makes sure their homework gets done and certainly is more involved with their school lives than I am. 

And what do I do if/when she throws my stuff out of the house?  How do I legitimately deal with her trying to force me out?

[Matt]

Is there agreement that I need to move back into the house as soon as possible with or without consulting an attorney?

Not necessarily.  There are certainly big risks being out of the house and away from the kids.  There are also big risks if you move back.

2 ways I would suggest that you look at this.  First, I would encourage you to find at least one attorney and ask how this specific issue works where you live.  Maybe just a phone call, or a free initial 30-minute consultation.

Second, I would suggest that you consider whether you are at risk of being physically assaulted and/or accused of violence.

If the attorney says moving back in is important, and if you're sure there won't be any violence or false accusations, cool.

I know my kids teachers.  I am their soccer coach (and know their other coaches).  I took my 5 y/o to the dentist this past monday to have a filling done.  I know their doctor (and dentist).  I take them to swimming lessons.  I drive for field trips.  I check homework when it isn't done and I am there.

This is very, very good.  Keep it up!

And what do I do if/when she throws my stuff out of the house?  How do I legitimately deal with her trying to force me out?

This may be a big risk.  Where I live, if you aren't living there - I don't know how many nights - but if you are asked where you live, and you say somewhere else, or if you're asked when was the last time you slept at the house, and it's been quite awhile, then you could lose all rights to go there without your wife's permission, and that's that - very hard to reverse.

It is sometimes assumed that if you're paying the mortgage, or if your name is on the lease, then you still have rights.  Where I live, that's not true.  It's all about who has been living there, and once you lose that, you can't get it back, unless the court orders her out and you in (or both of you in - very unlikely).

[ForeverDad]

She has the education and ability to work.  She has worked in the relatively recent past, just a few years ago.  That implies you can seek that any financial calculations for child support or spousal support "impute" her earning at a reasonable level such as her last hourly wage extrapolated to full time work.  In no case should it be imputed any lower than minimum wage, though that is far below what she probably earned at her last position.

Be forewarned she will plead poverty and that she can't find a job.  Judge may agree to give her time to find a job.  But whatever else, don't let the order say something like "StbEx will receive $XXX support until she finds a job."  With an order like that you can be sure she will never "find" a job.  Be sure there is a definite time limit set, hopefully no more than 6 months or so.  (Yes, she likely can still get it extended, perhaps even multiple times, but the point is to nail down all the vague aspects of literally everything or else she will re-interpret everything according to her perceptions and wishes.  Court orders often have vague clauses built in such as "reasonable" telephone contact or "mutually agreeable" exchange locations, doesn't work with our sort of cases.)

Expect her to proclaim, "I have a baby who is not in school!"  Well, be sure the judge knows on the record (1) she has a history of working, (2) she doesn't need to stay home and breastfeed the two year old "baby" all day long any more and (3) your locality really does have daycare facilities that you both can utilize while working.

Of course, a high priority now is to figure out how to get regular parenting time and not dependent on her whims.  Often if a child is sick you'll be told, "Child (or all) will stay here because of illness."  As though you can't care for an ill child?  Sorry, as an adult and as a parent, you can care for sick children too.  Parenting time does not depend upon anyone's health status, not unless you're both agreeable to it.

[Matt]

Following on to FD's comment about "imputing" income... .  the way it worked in my case was... .  

I quit my job, for a number of reasons, shortly after we separated, so I had no income.  My wife's income was quite a bit less than what I had been making, so she wanted to impute income to me.  I said OK, and proposed that we make it the average amount I made the last 3 years I was working.

But her lawyer - maybe motivated by her own fees - wanted to fight about it, so she hired a company to do a study and suggest a number.  I had to go to their office and answer a bunch of questions, and submit a bunch of information, and they supposedly researched what I should be making.  They came up with a number - wait for it - 10% lower than what I had proposed.

So I said "OK!".  But - you guessed it - my wife's lawyer disagreed with the company she had hired, and wanted to go back to the number I offered in the first place.  I said "No, you wanted an 'objective' study, so let's go with your number!".  Long story short, we split the difference.

Point being:  It's a common subject, and deciding on what number is right may take some haggling, but the right number isn't $0.  These days, because of the economy, some courts are only imputing minimum wage.  But even that will work out better for you than nothing.

[livednlearned]

Let's say that the custody agreement ends up being EOW + 1 overnight midweek.

That doesn't have to mean that you don't see your kids on days she has them. In the custody order, you can get very detailed if you want. For example, it could say that both parents attend all sporting and school events. (Unless you don't want her attending your kids' soccer games because she causes conflict, etc.)

I don't know how that would work in your situation. Many of us with high-conflict divorces end up parallel parenting, and that means we don't co-parent, and there is little to no contact other than drop off/pick up, which is sometimes specified in the custody order.

But perhaps your wife would agree to it because she wants 100% (which she'll never get), and might go along with something that benefits you if it means she can still be hands-on as much as possible.

I will admit that for my situation, I was extremely reluctant about the initial EOW +1 schedule we agreed to in our original temporary custody order. That schedule was actually a cakewalk compared to what I have now, which is essentially 96% time with S11 living here (long story).

I love my son, and I am fiercely protective of him, and think it is best for him to spend majority time with me, but man is it hard to be a full-time single parent. It would break me if S11 was a toddler.

For a BPD sufferer to have 3-4 kids, with one a toddler -- that's tough. It often means that the stable parent ends up seeing more of the kids because the pwBPD needs a break. On paper you might have EOW +1, but in reality you end up 50/50.

If you do consult with a lawyer, ask about a legal separation and how that might work. There are a few members here who take turns living in the marital home. Half the week with mom, half the week with dad.

Maybe you sit down with your wife and explain to her that there are three options (not suggesting these exact options, just tossing out examples of how you might appeal to transactional motives. Meaning, she sees that if she does not cooperate, she loses something of value.

1. You stay married, move back into the house, she agrees to couples counseling or treatment.

2. You legally separate and establish a parenting schedule, perhaps revolving which parent stays with the kids, which parent stays at in-laws. Transactional appeal: she doesn't have to change her SAHM status, won't have to get a job, and in return you see kids 50/50.

3. You divorce, wife has transitional time to get a job, court orders 50/50, assets are split, she will need to figure out how to afford the marital home, or else you buy it and she moves out.

About the affair -- in my state, one of the old-fashioned ones, there is alienation of affection laws. In your situation, it would probably not factor in. Those laws are typically used to financially penalize the spouse who had the affair, and usually it's for an affair that ended the marriage. Your marriage did not end.

Also for alimony -- in my state, 10 years is the magic number for being considered a long-term marriage. My ex pays 5 years alimony, but it's common for alimony to be 1/4 to 1/2 the span of the marriage. There is no rule for whether it is 1/4 or 1/2, so a judge has some wiggle room if it ends up going to court.

[another_guyD]

You need a lawyer.

If you get this:

EOW and 1 overnight a week

Add this in lunches at school with the young ones (and 10myear old if they want).

I would see my son at least every other day. The teachers would address problems with me by the end of the first month and I would impart them to ex by email.

Sir this is a very hard road to hoe, as a father out of the house: document, be a good guy. Aesthetics are very important in court.

BTW EOW + overnight is not that bad. I showered my son with love those periods and she would blow up at exchanges saying my house was Disneyland. You sound involved; so fight a hard fight and I hope you win in court, but if you don't make sure your kids do win - give them as much time as possible and make that time count. In the end you will win their hearts, I promise. They will come to you with problems, they will gravitate to you if there are joint events. You are the stable one: and they will recognize that: so be the best stable parent you can regardless. Be there for them at the drop of a hat. If ex is sick and asks you to take them (do it in a public place), get them, not for your exes sake but theirs.   

Nathan

[another_guyD]

One last note once you leave NEVER go back to her NEVER NEVER... .  

end it all

Nathan

[marbleloser]

As far as moving back into the home,it's still your home too. You don't have a court order keeping you out of the home. Get back in there,even if it takes a police escort. Be prepared to live in hell for a while. She'll try to make your life miserable so that you move back out. Keep a recorder going 24/7 while in the home with her.This is your witness to any false domestic violence accusations.She calls police,you let them hear what really happened.Just in case.

You've got to man up for your kids sake.It's a difficult thing to do,because we're used to going along to get along.The kids are yours too!You have AS MUCH right to them as their mother.Just because you're male doesn't mean you can't do as good a job at parenting.By leaving the marital home,you establish status quo that the mother is the primary caregiver.You basically give her custody of the kids.

You're a little behind in this,but you can correct your mistake.It's going to be tough,but the longer you're away,the longer she has primary custody.The clock's ticking! Consult an attorney ASAP.At this point,you may need a court order allowing you to re-enter your own home.

[livednlearned]

Some further detail about EOW + 1 -- my ex picked S11 up from afterschool at 5pm on Fridays, then brought him home to me Sunday night at 6pm. The "norm" (if there is such a thing) is to have your kids Friday after school until Monday morning every other week. That means 4 nights every other week. Alternate weeks, you have one overnight, which is why you want to make sure you have access to your kids even during your ex's time (like anotherg_guyD mentioned, include in your custody order that you can have lunch with your kids, or see them during afterschool activities and weekend sporting events). Again, just talking "norm." Best thing to do is to ask for double what you want so you have room to negotiate. If she gets primary custody, don't forget that you can ask for very, very specific time -- like you coach kids' soccer regardless of whether they are with her or not, and she does not attend practice or games. Maybe she fights you on that, and insists she can attend all games. You budge on that so that you both get to attend games. That kind of thing.

I was able to get a lot worked out in mediation, although I did not agree to joint legal custody and that piece of our order remains in dispute. So in mediation, we settled everything except legal custody, and then ended up with a parenting coordinator. Everyone's case is different, but in general, pwBPD don't do well with mediation. Because you feel such guilt, it might be better for you to have mediation in separate rooms so you can think more clearly and strategically. Her lawyer will counsel her about what seems fair (better that she hears it from a neutral party), and you stand a better chance of holding steady to get what you deserve dealing only with your L and the mediator.

Custody is usually an ongoing process for us. And it works on two levels -- one level is the custody that gets entered into court. The other level is what actually happens. You need a binding document to make sure that your wife doesn't sweep you of all your rights. Unfortunately, our spouse's bad behavior -- not following the court order -- begins to work in our favor because pwBPD often ignore (or exploit) the parts of the order they don't agree with. Courts hate to see one parent preventing the other parent from having access to the kids. Sounds like your wife mayl do that, and while it takes a long time (see ForeverDad's story), eventually you are awarded small incremental gains.

Ask for more than what you want to start with so you end up with something fair. And then think of custody as a dynamic process that continues even after you walk out of the court house.  Sad, but seems to be the deal when divorcing a BPD sufferer.

[Matt]

I started out with weekends - Friday 6:00 p.m. to Sunday 6:00 p.m. - plus one dinner with each kid each week.  I also took the kids to their activities after school, and talked with them on their phones (which I gave them when we separated).  Typically I saw each kid almost every day.

Over time I made myself available and spent more time with them.  In our settlement, I got 50/50, and the psychologist who did our Custody Evaluation recommended that if things didn't go well I should get more time because my son responded better to me.

It's morphed into about 75/25.  I got them computers so they stay here to do their homework.  I got a place close to their school so they can walk here after school - more time with me - or sometimes I pick them up.  Now my son is with me all weeknights - he only stays at his mom's on some weekends - because she was having trouble with him.

My lawyer told me, "If you get 50/50, it will become de facto primary over time, because Mrs. Matt won't be able to deal with them and it will be easier for her to let you have them more.", and that's just what has happened.  And they're both doing great.

[DreamGirl]

Lots and lots and lots and lots of good information, thefisherman.

Like other Dads here, my husband had every weekend, plus one night during the week with each kiddo by themselves on a rotating schedule. He did that for two years and it was great - mom realized how hard it was to be a single parent (and date!), so she ended up agreeing to 50/50 later on.

Point? Every other weekend is not the end of the world.

I think there is also baby steps to be had in the beginning.

Talking to a lawyer (or two) is a really good first step (and like Matt said, just do the consultation, no immediate need to retain). It is amazing the amount of anxiety you can relieve yourself of by doing that.

It's just a step to take to know where you are at as far as custody and divorce - lots of married couples in trouble take this step. I took it when my marriage was in trouble even though we ended up staying married.

It's just one way to be prepared.

~DreamGirl

[thefisherman]

I don't know if it is an advantage for her or me or neither, but I have been watching her contentious custody relationship with her ex-husband for 11 years.  She is frankly afraid of court.  She went back 2 years after their divorce because she thought her ex's new girlfriend's daughter (who was 6) was molesting my wife's daughter (who was 4).

I guess my point is, I have witnessed the exBPD in action for many years.  I have seen what her ex does that works, seen what he fails to take advantage of, and know what she is willing and capable of doing.

In terms of when she took him back to court... .  she accomplished nothing.  The ad litem didn't even talk to the other little girl.  I don't think he even talked to the new girlfriend (who my wife's ex married in the 1.5 years the motion to modify was in process).  Actually... .  the sum total of the attempt was to free him of responsibility for paying half of school expenses (because my wife wanted their daughter to go to private school and he thought public school was fine).  They still have joint legal.

Granted that was a decade ago.  

My understanding is that 50/50 is the norm her now.  10 years is considered a 'long term' marriage now (here).  I don't know what the alimony formula is.  Affairs are not considered relevant to the divorce except where it financially impacts the marital assets (which mine did not at all).  

One other personal observation from watching their custody arrangement for the last 11 years... .  having the parenting plan be somewhat vague can work to your advantage too.  If it doesn't say "you can't have lunch with your kids at school on the other's custody day" or "you will only attend events that occur during your custody", you are really free to do whatever you want in that regard.  At least that is how it has happened in this case.  Her ex is no saint and frankly I would say is NPD.  And he and his bi-polar wife... .  you think I am exaggerating, but these are the people I am surrounded by... .  have made some odd and bad parenting decisions.  They actually LOST primary custody of HER previous marriage children this past year.  

As for being in/out of the house.  Is it fair to assume any clock starts ticking anew any time I am IN the house for a night?  For example, she is taking the girls on an overnight trip this weekend.  I am staying in the house with the boys.  does that restart that clock?  I stayed there all weekend a couple weeks ago (with everybody there).  And was in for 2 weeks at the end of the year.  But no... .  I don't know when my right to the house changes in my state.

[Matt]

As for being in/out of the house.  Is it fair to assume any clock starts ticking anew any time I am IN the house for a night?  For example, she is taking the girls on an overnight trip this weekend.  I am staying in the house with the boys.  does that restart that clock?  I stayed there all weekend a couple weeks ago (with everybody there).  And was in for 2 weeks at the end of the year.  But no... .  I don't know when my right to the house changes in my state.

That's a pretty hardcore specific legal question that is different in different places.  It might not even be written law, but "case law" - legal tradition - that only the lawyers know.  So a very good question to ask an attorney.

Where I live, there isn't a hard-and-fast rule.  They can ask you a few questions, like if you have another place, and where did you sleep last night, and the night before, etc., and the court can decide.  And it will usually decide in favor of separate residences, to minimize the risk of conflict.

[scraps66]

Something else as far as determining what level of custody to shoot for - do not set yourself up for regrets down the road.  There will be plenty of disappointments and loss of satisfaction in dealing with a BP.  Don't heap on top of all of that something that is self-inflicted in asking for something, and then receiving something less than what you wanted to receive.  I was fortunate, I asked/demanded 50/50 and got it, but, could have gone worse for me.  It is NOT a good situation to be in to go back to court trying to gain back some level of custody.  I think, all things considered, kids are better off spending more time with the non-BP parent, regardless.  I am jaded due to my situation with my ex and know this may not be 100% applicable.  but even my second L who read all of my 350 page journal said this, "I can see hwo your kdis would benefit from begin withyouat least 50% of the time."

Not keeping up with the post, but, one living arrangment that I disucssed with one L was to "share" the house, or "hot rack" the house.  Set up an alternate living quarters where we would both live during certain "agreed to" times.  The custodial parent would be in the marital residence while the non-custodial parent would be in the temporary housing.  Granted my ex was severe into the punishment, but under certain cirucmstances, laweyr leveraged pressure, may provide a workable solution for some.   

[ForeverDad]

Joint custody is typical.  Courts sometimes are resistant to giving custody to one parent unless there are solid reasons and the court is eventually convinced.

Many courts like joint custody, they don't want either parent to feel like they 'lost' and they want both parents to continue parenting the kids.  However, it's best to try for a little extra.  You can clearly expect conflict, so what will happen if/when that happens?  Got back to court?  That's expensive.  Try to get a resolution process specified by the court, perhaps mediation or a parenting coordinator, as applicable.  (Some things, such as not following the order, may not qualify for mediation, etc.)  However, best is if you can get some sort of 'tie-breaker' status.  That is, if you two can't agree, then you can go ahead and just follow up with the details and/or results.  If is far simpler and cheaper that way.  Yes, if he's really stubborn, he can try to take it to court but odds are the court would say you weren't irresponsible or abusive/neglectful in your decisions.  In effect, it sounds equal since 50% is specified, exH saves face since he has 50/50, but you end up getting to make the major decisions.

Courts default to joint custody because they don't want either parent to feel like they 'lost' or get discoraged and walk away.  However, seek a little extra.  You can clearly expect conflict in the years to come, so what will happen if/when that happens?  Got back to court?  That's expensive.  Try to get a resolution process specified by the court, perhaps mediation or a parenting coordinator, as applicable.  (Some things, such as not following the order, may not qualify for mediation, etc.)  However, best is if you can get some sort of 'tie-breaker' status.  That is, if you two can't agree, then you can go ahead and just follow up with the details and/or results.  If is far simpler and cheaper that way.  Yes, if he's really stubborn, he can try to take it to court but odds are the court would say you weren't irresponsible or abusive/neglectful in your decisions.  In effect, it sounds equal since 50% is specified, exH saves face since he has 50/50, but you end up getting to make the major decisions.

Depending on the state, in many cases the legal custody aspects are somewhat separate from the parenting time schedule.  Not totally separate, but somewhat so.

Also, court will probably allow her to change her mind and seek custody or take over parenting, or at least let her try.  (You don't have to tell her that, of course.)  So your task is to do what you can for the best outcome for your children.  Maybe you can word things in the filing so it doesn't trigger her, maybe not, but here's a few points to keep in mind.

Sole custody may be rare in your state without extreme circumstances.  Your lawyer should know about local circumstances.  But there is one way that joint legal could work, if you have 'tie-breaker' status.  That way you ask for her agreement on a major issue but if you two can't agree, then you proceed.

How is 'joint with tie-breaker' different from Sole Custody?  With sole custody you can proceed without seeking agreement first, you just provide appropriate notification.

How is 'joint with tie-breaker' different from typical joint custody?  With typical joint custody and you two don't agree, you may have to go to a Parenting Coordinator, a mediator or back to court, all lengthy and possibly expensive options.

So you may have to think on your feet and not be caught off guard by surprise twists, pleas and demands.  If she insists on joint legal (many do so they look normal publicly and so they can feel they're still a 'good parent' then do try to reserve for yourself the 'tie-breaker' or 'decision-making' status.  Yes, theoretically she could still take you to a PC, mediator or court about it, but most likely wouldn't even try.

I agree, decision making authority is crucial if you want to avoid repeated visits and consequent delays either at court or seeking a ruling by the mediator or parenting coordinator (PC).

Many courts are reluctant to award sole custody to a parent, no doubt feeling it may end up enabling the other parent to be locked out.  So it's typical for joint legal custody.  However, if sole custody isn't granted, then try to get tie-breaker.  Actually, there's not much difference from sole custody.  With sole custody you make your decision or action and "notify" at your discretion either before of immediately after.  With joint you have to first seek agreement and then if that fails you as tie breaker go ahead anyway.  So really the only difference is that joint with tie breaker you have to try to seek agreement beforehand, then you proceed anyway.

Also, when one parent lives out of the local area, the court may be inclined to give the remote parent preference on the longer school vacations (winter break and spring break) and larger blocks of time in the summer.

Is one of you declared the Residential Parent for School Purposes?  In my case, my lawyer (and ex's too) told me it didn't matter, it only determined which school the child attended, but it did.  (1) My ex wanted to avoid trial and so that was my stipulation, either I was RP or we'd go back into the courtroom and begin the trial.  Since our child was in the middle of kindergarten in ex's school district, I filed with the school to let him finish out the school year there. Within two months, about 5 weeks before the end of the school year, she flamed out at the school and I was given one day to transfer our child to my district.  That created a history about her that I could refer to later. (2) A year later my ex moved about 20 miles away.  If I wasn't RP then I would have been the "remote" parent./quote]

My case is a little different.  Post divorce I was in equal time Shared Parenting.  The only advantage that either of us had over the other was that I was Residential Parent for School Purposes.  That was my sole condition to allow my ex to avoid The Trial scheduled to begin that day.  Though both our lawyer insisted it didn't mean anything, I held firm for that.  I was living in a house and she was living in an apartment.  If she had moved - which she did, twice so far - then I would have been forced to follow her to new schools - both moves were into different school districts.  Since I was RP, son hasn't had to change schools.

My concern had an unexpected side benefit.  I had filed with her school for our child to remain in her school until the school year ended.  But ex kept causing incidents connected with our parenting schedules and pickups from school and 5 or 6 weeks before the end of the school year school gave me one day to enroll him in my own school.  Her school wouldn't have had that option to get rid of a problem parent if I hadn't insisted on being RP.

When Shared Parenting failed, as the Custody Evaluator wrote might happen, I filed for custody and got it.  Ex was a very possessive parent and so that was 5 years after I filed for divorce and 3 years after the divorce decree.

[Matt]

Joint custody is typical.

Let's talk about terminology - "joint custody", "sole custody", "shared custody", "legal custody", "residential custody", etc.

Where I live, there are 2 things that get decided - legal custody and residential custody.

Legal custody means who makes what decisions, mostly about where to live, what school each child will be in, major medical decisions, and religious issues.  Legal custody is usually shared, unless it's pretty clear that won't work, or if one parent has some huge problems or just isn't around.  Sometimes one parent gets to be the tie-breaker but has to consult the other parent.  Sometimes there's no tie-breaker, and if you can't decide about something, you have to go back to court.

You should certainly ask for shared legal custody unless the other parent just can't cooperate.  Talk to your lawyer about whether there should be a tie-breaker;  if you ask for one parent to be the tie-breaker, it's probably more likely to be the mom.

Residential custody can be any way that will work best.  Some examples discussed here are 50/50 - like maybe 7 days at one house and 7 at the other, or another common schedule is 5/2/2/5 for smaller kids;  or EOW plus maybe a mid-week dinner or mid-week overnight;  or anything else you can come up with that makes sense.

It's probably best to ask for at least 50%, and more if you can show that you are a better parent according to the criteria in your state.  You can probably find those criteria online, or ask your attorney.  Many states base their criteria on Minnesota's 9 criteria, which are available online.  If you can show that the best schedule is more than 50% for you, and that you are capable according to your state's criteria, and that you are prepared to cooperate and foster a relationship with the other parent, you might ask for primary residential custody, and shared legal custody.

"Sole" custody probably means the other parent has no rights at all - a very extreme situation.

Or in some extreme cases - if you can show that the other parent is harming the child or alienating the child from you - there can be supervised visitation, usually as a temporary measure til the other parent shows she has her act together - maybe therapy.  Most cities in the US have centers that provide a place for a parent to spend time with their child under supervision.  Not cheap, and of course most parents would object to that status, so it's only something to consider in extreme cases.

[another_guyD]

Please defer to your lawyer's advice but a couple more notes.

Joint legal is fairly standard regardless of the physical custody arrangement (this is in my state, Alabama). The "joint" part is a joke; someone always has the final say, especially in high conflict divorce. This is where the physical custody comes into play.

Physical (residential with Matt) custody is the important part, this is were the child truly lives, the real power and the responsibility lies here.

Things you want; 50/50 is good, full custody is best, with you having the legal tie breaker. It is best to get as much as possible the first time, your subsequent chances are dependent on her behavior (and her getting caught and that person-entity telling on her), your behavior and possible issues with children. If you are concerned with your wife/ex moving away from the city AT ALL, I would recommend getting this dealt with in court (or mediation if that is the case) in writing.

In court be prepared to be made out as the devil, and then some. This occurs in normal divorce, it is even worse with a BPD divorce. Be straight up with your lawyer, good and bad. They need no surprises.

You are going to need settle in your heart what you will put up with as far as pickup, before the end of court. If it is strict you need that in writing in your decree. Unless my son was with me I would never plan locked in events for myself. I would pick him up with 15 minutes notice or no notice at all.

I guess I should give the side note as to where I am coming from: I "lost" (EOW and midweek overnight) my 3 year divorce case. I got two small victories: she could not leave the city with my son permanently and a child support allotment due to her education. Anyway, as time went on the exBPD "used" me more and more, which meant I had my son more and more. It culminated last year (3 years since final divorce decree) in a 1 month no contact from exBPD to my son. This ended in a call from the police looking for my son as my ex had ended her life.

I leave you with this: you never know what will happen, be a good dad (a good parent - because it is entirely possible that the "mothering" can come from the father as well or vice versa), regardless. I recommend being flexible for your kids and hard as rock with the ex. 

Nathan

[ForeverDad]

Please defer to your lawyer's advice but a couple more notes.

Joint legal is fairly standard regardless of the physical custody arrangement (this is in my state, Alabama). The "joint" part is a joke; someone always has the final say, especially in high conflict divorce. This is where the physical custody comes into play.

Physical (residential with Matt) custody is the important part, this is were the child truly lives, the real power and the responsibility lies here.

Things you want; 50/50 is good, full custody is best, with you having the legal tie breaker. It is best to get as much as possible the first time, your subsequent chances are dependent on her behavior (and her getting caught and that person-entity telling on her), your behavior and possible issues with children. If you are concerned with your wife/ex moving away from the city AT ALL, I would recommend getting this dealt with in court (or mediation if that is the case) in writing.

In court be prepared to be made out as the devil, and then some. This occurs in normal divorce, it is even worse with a BPD divorce. Be straight up with your lawyer, good and bad. They need no surprises.

Aptly written.

You are going to need settle in your heart what you will put up with as far as pickup, before the end of court. If it is strict you need that in writing in your decree. Unless my son was with me I would never plan locked in events for myself. I would pick him up with 15 minutes notice or no notice at all.

I guess I should give the side note as to where I am coming from: I "lost" (EOW and midweek overnight) my 3 year divorce case... .  Anyway, as time went on the exBPD "used" me more and more, which meant I had my son more and more.

This aspect had interesting consequences for me.  Recently I had reconnected with an old friend I'd know in my relative youth.  She had never married.  Though we did have our different circumstances decades later, there was a possible future despite our respective health issues, family obligations, etc.  But what was frustrating to her, having never married, was that any time my ex asked me to take my son, I did.  I felt that since I was single and flexible, it was best for my son.  It was hard for her to deal with the prospect that an ex through parenting could have influence on my life.  It was a painful learning experience for both of us.

It culminated last year (3 years since final divorce decree) in a 1 month no contact from exBPD to my son. This ended in a call from the police looking for my son as my ex had ended her life.

I leave you with this: you never know what will happen, be a good dad (a good parent - because it is entirely possible that the "mothering" can come from the father as well or vice versa), regardless. I recommend being flexible for your kids and hard as rock with the ex.

another_guyD - I'm sorry for your difficult adjustments this past year.  The co-parenting relief is mixed with the complicated loss.  Could you make a post for us to reply to separately?  Thanks.

[tog]

another_guyD, I too would like to hear more about your situation. I don't mean to sound harsh, but I would guess that many of us have wished the parent with BPD would "disappear" one way or the other, but that method must have been very hard on your son.

ForeverDad, if I may say, the right woman will respect you for dropping everything to get your son. I have no children of my own but I would happily drop everything for SO to go SS, hell... .  I'd go get him myself! Once the woman understands what your son deals with at his mother's... .  

[another_guyD]

The quick of my story:

I said PD_quick; i meant Foreverdad

I used to post and read a lot here during the divorce many years ago. I remember Matt, PD_quick, foreverdad and many others giving me much advice as well.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=193740.0

I am sorry if it seems a little random I wrote something much longer and trimmed it down.

Nathan