ignore what we in the regular world would call "rudeness?"

[Depression = 72% of members]

But in this situation, I don't think there is any question of "lying."  He wasn't saying he didn't have enough time to answer, he just chose not to.  And that is unusual. 

Does this really matter?

I mean, I have friends that get busy and might not get back to me or forget.  I don't react by creating... .  well more drama.  I don't mean this to sound harsh, forgive me if it is coming across that way.

If your feelings are genuinely hurt because he didn't get back to you, then you should use the DEARMAN approach to communicate your feelings, needs and why.

The first line of your email is all about him - and this is really about you.

[seeking balance]

But in this situation, I don't think there is any question of "lying."  He wasn't saying he didn't have enough time to answer, he just chose not to.  And that is unusual. 

Does this really matter?

I mean, I have friends that get busy and might not get back to me or forget.  I don't react by creating... .  well more drama.  I don't mean this to sound harsh, forgive me if it is coming across that way.

If your feelings are genuinely hurt because he didn't get back to you, then you should use the DEARMAN approach to communicate your feelings, needs and why.

The first line of your email is all about him - and this is really about you.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[laelle]

honestly P&C, I would let it roll off your back and go on with your day, but im not discouraging you from expressing your feelings at the same time.

Maybe try to process your own feelings about it first and get to the root of what is bothering your.  If after doing that and you can narrow it down to one singular thing, then it might be accepted better.  Just messaging "how ya doing?" might clear up any hurt feeling your having just by him giving you now the attention you didnt get back then.  Happens to me ALL THE TIME.

[KateCat]

I'll join the chorus to agree that "this is really about you." I wouldn't send an "Are you O.K.?" email, because to me even that sounds like pursuit in this particular relationship.

[elemental]

I would just say, oh ok, well if you feel like talking a bit more about this, I would love to.

And then let it go.

In terms of lying, mine told me a variety of deceptions this morning. None of which were direct lies, but it was clearly him not wanting to be open.

[waverider]

pwBPD live a very confusing life, even in their own minds they often do not know why they do these things. They create their own little world of delusions, excuses and twisted realities in order to justify themselves to themselves. They know no different, so when they communicate to others they will often say what they think sounds best drawing from truths, half truths and fabrications, with no boundaries between them. This is their normal world.

The way this impacts on you is that you cannot differentiate between one mode and the other as the crossover is seamless, and of no matter to them, it is their natural way of communication. The fibs and embellishments are not always meant to be deceitful or harmful, its just part of their language. To spend your time trying to dissect their authenticity will leave you living with constant suspicion and insecurity.

It is best to treat everything they say on face value as "interesting" choosing neither to believe nor disbelieve, but don't make any life changing important decisions on their word alone.

[patientandclear]

pwBPD live a very confusing life, even in their own minds they often do not know why they do these things. They create their own little world of delusions, excuses and twisted realities in order to justify themselves to themselves. They know no different, so when they communicate to others they will often say what they think sounds best drawing from truths, half truths and fabrications, with no boundaries between them. This is their normal world.

The way this impacts on you is that you cannot differentiate between one mode and the other as the crossover is seamless, and of no matter to them, it is their natural way of communication. The fibs and embellishments are not always meant to be deceitful or harmful, its just part of their language. To spend your time trying to dissect their authenticity will leave you living with constant suspicion and insecurity.

It is best to treat everything they say on face value as "interesting" choosing neither to believe nor disbelieve, but don't make any life changing important decisions on their word alone.

This is a really important point, one that Maria1 makes often too, and it is why I usually do not ask my pwBPD why something happened or why he did what he did.  Honestly, a lot of the time, I don't think he knows, but the effort to tell a story that doesn't cast him in a bad light distorts any true information so much that I was better off before I asked him, just basing my understanding on what I myself could glean from observation.

That said, as human beings, I feel sort of obligated at some point to take him up on legitimate requests to have a better relationship.  And this is what I am finding confusing now.  Previously, he asked me to ask him to get together, not always leave it to him to ask.  After weighing my own vulnerability to a feeling of rejection, I have largely stuck with my practice of letting him ask; but it feels a little weird since his request, in the regular non-BPD world, is a completely reasonable one for reciprocity and equality, one which I would normally honor without a second's hesitation or worry.

In this instance, he has asked me previously to let him know if he does something that bothers me.  Again, a reasonable request for an improved relationship.  The current email weirdness and accompanying text silence is unusual for us and to me does signal that something is wrong for him, though by this time he may have forgotten what it was or how we got into this place.  I can let it go, and reach out without reference to it to let him know the light continues to be green.  I can let it go, and wait for him to make contact next.  Or I can ask if something is wrong, because this was strange.  To me the value of the latter is not that I will necessarily get reliable information -- again, not sure he knows the answer to the question what went wrong and why -- but because it shows him I've noticed he may be feeling badly and I do want to know why.

I gather a strong consensus here, though, that letting it go is the best course, and I really value all of your guidance.  Right now, that's what I'm doing ... .  

[waverider]

Or I can ask if something is wrong, because this was strange.  To me the value of the latter is not that I will necessarily get reliable information -- again, not sure he knows the answer to the question what went wrong and why -- but because it shows him I've noticed he may be feeling badly and I do want to know why.

This is important as it is validating that you are paying attention. The trick is then to allow him to volunteer further input, if he wants to, rather than pushing for answers and putting pressure on him thereby triggering defensive behavior.

Lack of any inquiry will be interpreted as you just don't care about him

A fine line I know, but then it always is, you just have to learn that it's ok to get it wrong and cross it from time to time.

[patientandclear]

Thanks, everyone, for helping me process this situation.  Waverider, your last post especially helped me.  Here's how I see the evolution of how I saw this issue initially vs now, a day later after having read your comments:

As several of you pointed out, I was hurt initially. Despite everything I've learned, I still started out at that point, with all the attendant questions about whether to do something about how it hurt me.  That's where many of you gave me the good advice to let it go or back off--not worry about it.

A different framework though is that I know this is not coming from nowhere.  Something has happened to mess with his feelings--there is something up for him.  It could possibly be that he's seeing someone else but I think if he were, he'd have answered differently.  I think more likely, something about comments I made or attitudes I displayed -- apparent indifference to his plans to move, joking about how I wouldn't see him for months -- hurt him enough that he needed to shut down his good feelings about me/us.

What Waverider said is I think right--not to acknowledge the very obvious weirdness, given how unusual it is & that he's asked me before to tell him if something concerns or bothers me -- would be very invalidating. So I've aske, while leaving it open for him to just move past whatever it is. So 've made an opening for him, not a requirement, that he tell me what's up

[waverider]

 

And dont worry if you screw it up from time to time. It is not our job to always second guess accurately whats the right thing to do our say every time, just be attentive, and thick skinned enough, to at least care enough to give it our best shot. You will win some, you will loose some, but thats alright shrug it off and move on...

[babyducks]

Oh Bang this topic is exactly what I have going on right now.  Thanks for the posts.

It really hit home about "they can be crude, rude and abrupt.  and they can be kind thoughtful, sweet and loving."

Yeah exactly,  anything they express is usually expressed to the fullest possible extent.

There is never a middle of the road about anything.

I am working on not "letting in it" when my ex lets rip with one of the scathing ripostes that seem to flow out of her.   

I have a mental image of putting on emotional armour,  and letting the comment deflect.  Even though the comment might start with the words "You"  I understand its not about me.  Its about how she FEELs about me and her feelings always are at the extreme levels of intensity. 

It must be terrible to live that way.

[almost789]

I tried to read the majority of the post here as not to duplicate information. I may have skimmed some so If I repeat something I apologize. But, you mention this quote that "has meaning" to him. And then he quickly and shortly shuts down and doesn't want to talk about it. There's not a whole lot to figure out here in my opininon. I see this as he was getting close and intimate and thus, escaped due to fear of intimacy. I have found that continuing on to ask, whats wrong, or even discuss it at all triggers more engulfment fears. Its my opinion, you should just let it go. And talk only when he offers. He most likely will find a time he wants to further discuss. But it will have to be when he comes around. Not when you want to. I totally understand you want to go further. This has been my problem with mine is just when we start to get really close and he's starting to tell me how he feels, he drops it and disappears for a while. At least in your case you got a 'busy now with computer" I don't get that, mine just drops off the face of the earth for days, which makes me naturally very upset. But he does usually come back around. The sad thing is though is he will never be able to form a true intimate connection without therapy. If he does, then he's cured. Because BPDer's will always have problems with intimacy. This is where my acceptance has come in and I have shifted my trials to form an intimate friendship with him, to helping him find a therapist and letting him go. Because I am the trigger.

[patientandclear]

LifeGoesOn: yes, I am certain he is being triggered by all kinds of intersecting things happening between us right now.  On Monday he told me he might move away, and for the first time, I didn't instantly say "oh, I hope you don't, I'll be so sad!" but instead calmly discussed where he might move.  Huge change for us.  I wouldn't be surprised if he's wondering if I even care (despite oceans of evidence to the contrary).

And he has been tender about that I was slow to read a book he recommended (though I had read it when I last saw him, we discussed it, and he seemed delighted with what I had to say about it).  But he was clearly poised to think I was not prioritizing this thing that was very important to him.  Again, despite oceans of evidence to the contrary.

I continue to be important to him, and yes, that is scary, and he can't decide if he can trust it or if I only like him because I'm naive (big recent topic as discussed above) ... .  no question, I trigger him.  But.  I don't want to give up for that reason because that would mean he will never have any sustained relationships of importance.  Instead, I want to understand and handle it well.

I did end up asking if everything is OK -- saying if he's just wanting not to talk for a while that's fine.  We'll see how that goes.  I don't usually take that approach but Waverider's point that it is so ostentatious that to ignore it completely seems like I don't care seems right to me.  He just never acts quite like this -- always maintains some form of connection, usually through email.  The fact that he has dropped that is not something he would expect to go unnoticed.

I know this is all really hard for him.  One challenge is that whatever he says the problem is, even if he says there is one, probably isn't what is really going on, not because he is lying, but because he doesn't know or understand himself exactly what prompted this bad feeling.

This degree of volatility in a non-sexual "friendship" helps me to realize how not viable a romance with him would have been -- helpful because I often second-guess my decision not to resume that with him when he offered it, yet had no insights into why he had so abruptly left me the first time.  He is so, so tender and doubtful and ready to be betrayed.  

Someone posted here a few weeks ago about how not liking a movie the pwBPD likes could be enough to represent a fundamental failure of the r/s or betrayal -- the failure to understand something important without the need for discussion and explanation.  I think my failure to instantly understand the quote may be that way for my pwBPD.  He thought I would understand, I didn't, and that made him feel bad.  Sigh.  He is living in a very hard place.

[seeking balance]

Have you read the book Loving Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder by Shari Manning?

This knowledge may  help you to depersonalize and know when to help and when not to  in these situations.

[Cardinals in Flight]

Hey P&C!

To me? I think at some point he has to line it up for himself that you have a life, 1) you will read his book at a time that is best for you! 2) maybe you will read the book NOT in his time frame, and 3) that doesn't mean he is not important to you!  You read the book and you both had a discussion about it, great!

His being tender and doubtful is what he more than likely deals with daily.  He has to learn for himself that you are sincere in being there for him, and he will!  You are trustworthy and constant... .  he will eventually get it, but it has to be in his own time.

It's like building a house, the foundation is laid, the contractor (he) has to make sure it's a firm foundation before continuing. 

BTW, you are the concrete vendor, 

CiF

[Grey Kitty]

And dont worry if you screw it up from time to time. It is not our job to always second guess accurately whats the right thing to do our say every time, just be attentive, and thick skinned enough, to at least care enough to give it our best shot. You will win some, you will loose some, but thats alright shrug it off and move on...

Absolutely right there. All relationships will have bumps and miscommunications, at a bare minimum. The important thing is to recover as quickly and gracefully as you can--instead of tripping on one (small) problem and then diving into a pit of problems spawned from it, and saying that things will never be the same again, etc. etc. etc.

Even if somebody around you tries to dive into the pit, you can still do your best to recover well.

[almost789]

I've not read it yet SB. Looks like a good book. My focus now is not in "loving" him. I'm trying to remain, detached. At least for some time. I have a few books to get through myself. But will look into that one possibly later down the road... .  thank you.

[KateCat]

Would it help to challenge this thought?

[seeking balance]

I've not read it yet SB. Looks like a good book. My focus now is not in "loving" him. I'm trying to remain, detached. At least for some time. I have a few books to get through myself. But will look into that one possibly later down the road... .  thank you.

Don't let the title fool you - it isn't about being in love with, but learning about the disorder and how to lovingly set boundaries, communicate, depersonalize - all from a place of compassion.  It really makes the non focus on their issues.

For example, P&C's original question - the book would focus on how to now "save" a person, but lovingly be there.  Are we helping out of guilt or concern - and what is help really?  Seriously, I do not say this lightly, it is worth the read if you have any communication with a BPD.

I read it a couple years after my break up at the advice on members here.  Personally, anyone can benefit from the tactical skills addressed in this book.

[patientandclear]

It's like building a house, the foundation is laid, the contractor (he) has to make sure it's a firm foundation before continuing.  

BTW, you are the concrete vendor,  

CiF

Fabulous insights CIF.  I can't make up my mind whether it's better to be a concrete vendor or a vending machine

But you're right.  I can't try to perform at an even higher level than I am, imagining that that will solve the problems.  If his doubts could be resolved by my performance, they would already be resolved.

Would it help to challenge this thought?

I don't want to give up . . . because that would mean he will never have any sustained relationships of importance.

I am pretty committed to that position -- I don't think that just because we trigger pwBPD we have to leave.  Everyone would leave them then.  In other words, I am not persuaded I need to leave him to help him, which is a view I've heard on these boards (more on Leaving or Undecided) sometimes.  BUT.  I should have been clear that this is not enough reason for me to stay.  I stay because I enjoy him, he pushes me and makes me think in ways I really like, I respect much of the way he approaches life, I like spending time with him, and apart from his tendency to disappear, he is a thoughtful, responsive companion who has behaved well in all of this, within the limits of this disorder.  I agree with what I think is your point KateCat -- my goal is not to help him or to save him.  I don't do that any more.

[Cardinals in Flight]

Absolutely P&C! We are all over-achievers!

I can't try to perform at an even higher level than I am, imagining that that will solve the problems.  If his doubts could be resolved by my performance, they would already be resolved.

It's quite possible this board may not be necessary if this were the case with any r/s including a pwBPD.  We all try so hard, in any other r/s we'd all no doubt be hugely successful 

I'm off to Amazon to order SB's book suggestion! I'll take any and all help I can get.

CiF

[patientandclear]

I've not read it yet SB. Looks like a good book. My focus now is not in "loving" him. I'm trying to remain, detached. At least for some time. I have a few books to get through myself. But will look into that one possibly later down the road... .  thank you.

Don't let the title fool you - it isn't about being in love with, but learning about the disorder and how to lovingly set boundaries, communicate, depersonalize - all from a place of compassion.  It really makes the non focus on their issues.

For example, P&C's original question - the book would focus on how to now "save" a person, but lovingly be there.  Are we helping out of guilt or concern - and what is help really?  Seriously, I do not say this lightly, it is worth the read if you have any communication with a BPD.

I read it a couple years after my break up at the advice on members here.  Personally, anyone can benefit from the tactical skills addressed in this book.

I read that (and I think every other book that there is on dealing with BPD!) and yes, it helped me decide I needed to stop trying to help him.

[almost789]

Patientandclear: "I am pretty committed to that position -- I don't think that just because we trigger pwBPD we have to leave"

I don't think that either. This is just what I have decided to do. No doubt you being a stable presence in his life is good for him. I remember when mine was being distant with me. I didn't know why he was being that way at the time. We would talk very little and sporadically. Looking back now, I could tell he was having a hard time. Saying things like "miss you" but not being able to see me. This would confuse me to no end. How do you miss me and not want to see me? I had no idea about BPD. He told me once during one of his distant moments, he said. "Just knowing your mine makes my week better"  Looking back now I see what that means. Its good for them to know that they have someone, even if from a distance. But in my case now, I have to leave/detach/separate from it from him for me. Not detaching from him has left me in a painful longing state. My decision, not what I think should be everyone's choice. Thats the thing, what is good for one person is not good for everyone. It's not black and white. There's no blanket way to deal with this. We're all unique and live our lives according to us, not others.

[123Phoebe]

I continue to be important to him, and yes, that is scary, and he can't decide if he can trust it or if I only like him because I'm naive (big recent topic as discussed above) ... .  no question, I trigger him.  But.  I don't want to give up for that reason because that would mean he will never have any sustained relationships of importance.  Instead, I want to understand and handle it well.

Hi P&C,

Do you believe without a doubt that he will never have any sustained relationships of importance?  If so, why? 

Has he come right out and told you that he can't decide if he can trust your importance to him or if you only like him because you're naive? 

I'm having a hard time understanding this

[myself]

I wondered about that too, actually, what 123Phoebe just asked about. Despite the good intentions, hard work, varying degrees of radical acceptance and etc., are there layers to this of being in a rescuer role for you? You say not, but... .  Are you really still staying in there to 'save' him from his fate? And: Your own? It sounds like playing house without an actual partner really being there. One who's like a child to you at times. There's still some pain, and much walking on eggshells here. So many times you second guess yourself and him. If you're in a rescuer role, and he needs that, he may pull away because he can't face it, right? He may resent you acting more like a mother than a (non)lover-friend, even if this is underneath the surface. Then, when you aren't fulfilling your role, as you're seeing in this recent situation, it just gets worse. For both of you.

[patientandclear]

Phoebe & Myself:

I swear on the book SB is recommending that I am not trying to rescue him!  I am really clear on that.  Really clear.

was responding, not very clearly, to the idea that we should disengaged from pwBPD for their own sake when we become close enough that we are "triggers" for them. I was saying that doesn't make sense to me--if everyone close to them left because they are triggers, pwBPD would have no close relationships, which doesn't seem like the best thing to do for them, contrary to some comments on the Leaving & Undecided boards.  So I'm arguing against the idea that it is always best for them if we leave when we are close enough to trigger disordered feelings.

In the end though, like I wrote above, that's not why I'm staying. I'm staying because I like being with him & communicating with him. I was only rejecting the idea that it's kinder for pwBPD for us to disconnect from them.

I don't know what the future holds for my pwBPD. It depends on him.  I see him trying to push himself.  I also see him without a lot of insight about what happens in his relationships.  I am not betting on him or against him--I will just see what is.

I can see clearly from many events that he cannot fully trust me.  He has told me explicitly many times that he's not sure why I care for him.  He recently explained the "naive" thing in terms of my having "generously" rationalized some behavior of his, & him deciding that rationale, though he wanted it to be true, wasn't, & really, he was just a jerk. The point of saying all this is that I have no doubt he struggles w/complex feelings of guilt, vulnerability, desire, resentment, fear, regarding me ... .  but as long as he still wants to try & is willing to put in effort and try to push past the discomfort, I want to stick it out with him.

I am not trying to parent this man or to fix him or to be his partner unless he finally got to a place where that might be sustainable for him--and he is very far from that, he still struggles with abandonment/rejection fears, & smothering fears, being close to me when we're not having sex & don't discuss love or romantic partnership. I really am trying to be.a "true and enduring friend," as I offered him when we reconnected.  That is hard & confusing sometimes, which is why I come on here & ask for advice.  I don't want to harm myself or make things harder for him by communicating poorly, or not communicating when I should.

[almost789]

Just wanted to comment about the ' idea that its kindernto leave' ... .  thats not what i said. Thats your interpretation. I said. Im detaching because im the trigger and i cant handle the distance and other things that go along with a triggered pwBPD. I said im leaving for me. Not that it was kinder.

[Cardinals in Flight]

P&C wrote... .  "I don't know what the future holds for my pwBPD. It depends on him.  I see him trying to push himself.  I also see him without a lot of insight about what happens in his relationships.  I am not betting on him or against him--I will just see what is."

This is exactly why I'm still in an unship with my pwBPD.  I see so much strength in her trying to regulate herself, knowing when she is needing a time-out before an incident, really trying to not inflict harm.  I really respect that.  It may not always be this way, I accept that.  We may not be long term, I respect and accept that too.  But when someone is reaching out to me, and telling me they love me, that they know they are defective and don't want to further hurt me, but wants me to stay in their lives?  I'm going to give it my best shot, especially when I know that I helped to cause a few of the melt-downs before I realized my part in the original demise.

The upside is that we learn about ourselves in the meantime, maybe our next relationship will need the lessons we learned from the one we are in now, who knows, but any attempt at stretching and self-awareness is a good thing, at least in my mind it is.

I also fully realize that most of thinking is that you cannot be in a relationship with a pwBPD, I hear that loud and clear!  I'll be right here to write about the failures of all my current thinking, if and when the situation arises.  But still? in my mind, everyone deserves loves, even people with BPD, even if we end up having to love them from a distance.

CiF

[patientandclear]

Just wanted to comment about the ' idea that its kindernto leave' ... .  thats not what i said. Thats your interpretation. I said. Im detaching because im the trigger and i cant handle the distance and other things that go along with a triggered pwBPD. I said im leaving for me. Not that it was kinder.

Yes, I saw I had misunderstood that from your more recent post.  Sorry!  Your situation reminds me very much of my own and I completely respect your choice to detach because it is too hard to deal with the longing.  Also admire your effort to continue to care for and be with your pwBPD after the breakup.  

The "it's kinder to leave" point is one I've read a lot though.  I wish I'd read your initial post more accurately because now I've sent us all on a tangent, because it sounded like I'm on a rescue mission or something.  I may not JADE with my pwBPD but I am sure doing it here!

[almost789]

Well, if anyone can do it, it would be you! Patientanddclear.

[maria1]

I think the difficulty from the outside looking in is that you seem to want to prove to him that you love him, that you'll stay consistently, that you won't react to the push/pull. I think you've said this is what you hope to show him? You are trying to facilitate that 'sustainable relationship' with him but the reasons you can't do that may be ultimately beyond your control because he is disordered.

You are trying to control a situation which is uncontrollable. You seem to be twisting yourself into the most amazing shapes, melting around him, quietly and happily, but painfully in order to build a sustainable friendship. If you really could do that wouldn't you be fixing? Fixing the disorder?

I tried a little to think about staying in a deeper way for my ex but I knew I didn't have it in me any more. I needed to look after me. I was too codependent in our relationship to be able to detach enough for that. Once I realised that I had to step back. I may not want to abandon him and I will try my best not to make things worse but my needs and my children's come first now. I won't spend time filling in his emptiness or working out how to plug the gaps for him any longer because I have my own work to do on my own stuff. And do you know what? He's doing OK. Yes he's messing up people's lives and introducing women into his son's life and still wrangling with his ex wife and getting himself in fights but there ain't nothing I can do about it and there never really was.

Maybe the reason we are all wanting to keep this tangent up is that you seem to be setting your own needs aside to help this man. That you are doing it from a place of love and compassion is clear. That it is causing you pain also seems to be lurking in the depths.