A BPD sexual non starter... At least for me. Advice please.

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I hope someone can untangle the mess that's going on inside my head about one particular issue.  I appreciate any insight.

My BPDSO cheated the whole time we were together, starting just 14 days into a relationship she "had always wanted".

During this time she gave me nothing sexually, saying she just "couldn't do that", or "didn't like that"etc.  This lasted six years.

Now I find out that her sexual relationship with the other guy was mind blowing in the bedroom and just about anywhere else you could have sex.  She treated him in the way you only see in movies.

The day she got caught she suddenly became willing to give me these things too.  Naturally I don't want them from her any more, the pain of knowing the woman I loved more than life itself gave it all to other men is just too much.

What I am confused about is 'why now?'  Why not before?  I know the fear of her losing everything must be playing a part in this, but can I ever truly believe it's me she loves and wants?

[SuperWaz]

I hope someone can untangle the mess that's going on inside my head about one particular issue.  I appreciate any insight.

My BPDSO cheated the whole time we were together, starting just 14 days into a relationship she "had always wanted".

During this time she gave me nothing sexually, saying she just "couldn't do that", or "didn't like that"etc.  This lasted six years.

Now I find out that her sexual relationship with the other guy was mind blowing in the bedroom and just about anywhere else you could have sex.  She treated him in the way you only see in movies.

The day she got caught she suddenly became willing to give me these things too.  Naturally I don't want them from her any more, the pain of knowing the woman I loved more than life itself gave it all to other men is just too much.

What I am confused about is 'why now?'  Why not before?  I know the fear of her losing everything must be playing a part in this, but can I ever truly believe it's me she loves and wants?

[Newton]

SuperWaz attempting to work out her motives behind this change of heart will be pure speculation.  It may be as a result of abandonment fear, or potential engulfment fear from the "other" partner etc

It must have been very hurtful for you to discover this sexual infidelity.  That is your truth.

That is hardly the sort of behaviour that is showing love, respect or exclusivity. Do you want someone who behaves this way in your life?

[schwing]

Here's my guess.

Maybe she already knows that when she gets physically intimate with someone it just triggers more of her disorder feelings.  Perhaps by maintain an solely emotionally intimate relationship with you, she thought she could better manage her disordered feelings (i.e. fear of abandonment).  After all, with you, she has lasted 6 years but with the affairs I imagine they were all shorter term.

Why now?  Well, she has always been motivated by her disordered fear of abandonment.  I think she suddenly became willing to be sexual with you now out of an effort to avoid perceived abandonment.  I think that if she's that overwhelmed by her disordered feelings, she just as likely to suddenly give up on your relationship and start a new one with someone else.  The best way to *avoid* abandonment is to abandon first.

It is hard to accept, but she doesn't "love and want" in the same way as a non-disordered person does.  The person who she "loves and wants" can be very interchangeable between different people.  She doesn't attach to one person in the same way you are attached to her.

I hope this helps.

Best wishes, Schwing

[SuperWaz]

Here's my guess.

Maybe she already knows that when she gets physically intimate with someone it just triggers more of her disorder feelings.  Perhaps by maintain an solely emotionally intimate relationship with you, she thought she could better manage her disordered feelings (i.e. fear of abandonment).  After all, with you, she has lasted 6 years but with the affairs I imagine they were all shorter term.

Why now?  Well, she has always been motivated by her disordered fear of abandonment.  I think she suddenly became willing to be sexual with you now out of an effort to avoid perceived abandonment.  I think that if she's that overwhelmed by her disordered feelings, she just as likely to suddenly give up on your relationship and start a new one with someone else.  The best way to *avoid* abandonment is to abandon first.

It is hard to accept, but she doesn't "love and want" in the same way as a non-disordered person does.  The person who she "loves and wants" can be very interchangeable between different people.  She doesn't attach to one person in the same way you are attached to her.

I hope this helps.

Best wishes, Schwing

Thanks Schwing.

The problem I have is that while she gave me nothing, she actually gave one married man EVERYTHING for the entire time we were together.  She met him after we had been together for just two weeks and continued the affair until she got caught.  A six year intense relationship, right under my nose.  She even brought this guy up in our conversations and I never even questioned why.  I just loved and trusted her so much.

He got it all.  All the "I love you's" from the moment she woke up until the moment she went to sleep.  Even whilst I was sitting next to her or laying in bed next to her he was on her mind. 

She would belittle me, withhold sex from me for various reasons (I.e. "I'm sore down there" and then go off and meet him for sex.  He got the 90% of the relationship I desired so much, and I would get the version of her that simply "could never do these things" and now I see she did them all with him it's left me feeling so crushed.

Now she has been found out she's willing to give me all the things I thought she could never do and it makes me sick.  All the attention he got has now been shifted to me, and I feel like nothing more than a consolation prize.

A little background may help.  I was with her for six years, lived with her for almost five, and have two children with her.  One isn't mine, the other is now 50/50 as to whether she's mine or his.  I live my life based upon three things, honest, open, faithful, and she promised me she was exactly the same.  I am still living with her, but we are not together.  I make this very clear to her.  She's in therapy for BPD and seems to be trying, but who knows what's really on her agenda.

I just feel so second best.  Does she REALLY want me now?  She claims she always wanted me but was scared I was going to reject her so she played it safe and acted her way through the six years.   It didn't seem like rejection was an issue for her with the other guy.  Even when he did "take a break" for a week or so, she didn't have an issue with it.  She just intensified the texts and phone calls until he came back.

I just feel that if I was to move on with her my best wouldn't be enough for her again.  I'm struggling to get my head around this and it's eating me up.  Will I ever be good enough for her or even after therapy will she still be craving more?

Thank you for your support, theories and advice.

[Newton]

Superwaz... .  I know all this is confusing and hurts like hell... .  I have the T shirt!... .  

For one minute... .  just one minute... .  try to give your mind some space and peace... .  from all this.

Put aside her WORDS... .  just forget them... .  as if they don't exist... .  after all, they are just words... .  and they have proved to be very far from the truth before... .  

Now in that space you have allowed yourself... .  look at her behaviour... .  

Do you want to be with someone that behaves this way?... .  

[schwing]

The problem I have is that while she gave me nothing, she actually gave one married man EVERYTHING for the entire time we were together.  She met him after we had been together for just two weeks and continued the affair until she got caught.  A six year intense relationship, right under my nose.  She even brought this guy up in our conversations and I never even questioned why.  I just loved and trusted her so much.

I disagree.  If you gave you "nothing" then what kept you in the relationship?  If there was "nothing" between the two of you, then how could you even describe it as a relationship?

And if you truly believe she has this disorder, then there is no way that the other guy, the "one married man" got "EVERYTHING."  No one only gets the "idealization."  Everyone gets both sides of the coin.  Sure, she did have a sexual relationship with this guy.  But for all you know, the same guy is posting here complaining about all the other "devaluation" behavior that you don't know about.

For all you know, the other guy kept complaining that she would keep going back to you after spending time with him.  Maybe that was all he wanted.  But you don't know this.  If that's all that you wanted, why did you have a relationship with her?

He got it all.  All the "I love you's" from the moment she woke up until the moment she went to sleep.  Even whilst I was sitting next to her or laying in bed next to her he was on her mind. 

Didn't you get your share of the "I love you's"?  Is that all you want?  Someone to tell you "I love you"?  Without any commitment behind it.  Without any consideration behind it?  Without any security or support or day-to-day interactional?  Because so long as she was with both of you guys, she wasn't giving any of this to either of you two.

She would belittle me, withhold sex from me for various reasons (I.e. "I'm sore down there" and then go off and meet him for sex.  He got the 90% of the relationship I desired so much, and I would get the version of her that simply "could never do these things" and now I see she did them all with him it's left me feeling so crushed.

For all you know, the other guy complained that you got the 90% of what he wanted that he wasn't getting.  For all you know this other guy is going to leave his wife and then marry this woman who will then proceed to turn his life into a living nightmare.  This disorder doesn't just go away because you believe it only happened to you.  Either she is this way to everyone, or else she does not suffer from this disorder.  She can't just be BPD just with you.

Now she has been found out she's willing to give me all the things I thought she could never do and it makes me sick.  All the attention he got has now been shifted to me, and I feel like nothing more than a consolation prize.

I promise you, what she's "willing to give [you]" now would not last very long before she implodes in some entirely new way.  Maybe then you might have a taste of what the other guy has had to deal with these six years.

A little background may help.  I was with her for six years, lived with her for almost five, and have two children with her.  One isn't mine, the other is now 50/50 as to whether she's mine or his.  I live my life based upon three things, honest, open, faithful, and she promised me she was exactly the same.  I am still living with her, but we are not together.  I make this very clear to her.  She's in therapy for BPD and seems to be trying, but who knows what's really on her agenda.

My point is the same as before.  You were *family* to her.  It is feelings of *family* which bring out the dysfunctional/disordered aspect of her BPD.  For all you know, the other guys is dying to be like-"family" to her.  Could you be with a woman for six years, listening to how "awful" her husband treats her day-in day-out, but still she chooses to be with her husband and not you?  What message would that send you?  How would your self-esteem be then?

I just feel so second best.  Does she REALLY want me now?  She claims she always wanted me but was scared I was going to reject her so she played it safe and acted her way through the six years.   It didn't seem like rejection was an issue for her with the other guy.  Even when he did "take a break" for a week or so, she didn't have an issue with it.  She just intensified the texts and phone calls until he came back.

For pwBPD everyone else is "second best."  Their primary concern is their own disordered feelings and need.  Whenever his disordered feelings were triggered by you, she would run to him.  And whenever his disordered feelings were triggered by him, she would run to you. 

I just feel that if I was to move on with her my best wouldn't be enough for her again.  I'm struggling to get my head around this and it's eating me up.  Will I ever be good enough for her or even after therapy will she still be craving more?

No one is "good enough" for her in the sense than no one can ever *not* trigger her disordered feelings.  And so long as *someone* triggers her disordered feelings, she will have reason to find someone else. 

You might have to come to accept that unless she has a handle on her disordered feelings, she will *never* be able to fully commit to being with anyone.

[SuperWaz]

Schwing and Newton, firstly I'd like to thank you greatly for the time you spent gaining an understanding of my situation and your opinions.  Some things made alot of sense.  Others, a little less when I explain the facts.  I do however really value your insights into this and very much appreciate your time.

I disagree.  If you gave you "nothing" then what kept you in the relationship?  If there was "nothing" between the two of you, then how could you even describe it as a relationship?

And if you truly believe she has this disorder, then there is no way that the other guy, the "one married man" got "EVERYTHING."  No one only gets the "idealization."  Everyone gets both sides of the coin.  Sure, she did have a sexual relationship with this guy.  But for all you know, the same guy is posting here complaining about all the other "devaluation" behavior that you don't know about.

For all you know, the other guy kept complaining that she would keep going back to you after spending time with him.  Maybe that was all he wanted.  But you don't know this.  If that's all that you wanted, why did you have a relationship with her?

Firstly, she has been diagnosed with BPD by a number of therapists and psychologists.  She's undergoing therapy for it with a top psychotherapist.

What she gave me for the whole six years was a broken relationship.  I knew she had two previous abusive relationships, and what she gave me I believed to be her very best.  She told me it was all she had to offer and I loved her for giving me her all, and believed she was doing the very things I asked for, being honest, open and faithful.

She was fairly shut off emotionally, and sexually she would always tell me she could never do the things I wanted.  Most of these things she made out as though she could never do them in a million years.  I accepted these things without question.  Oral sex for instance was something she apparently just couldn't do.  The "I love you's" to me were few and far between.

I now have undisputed proof that the things she gave him were all of the things I wanted.  The exciting, passionate sex, the emotion, albeit her messed up version.  To put it into contrast over the course of 18 months she sent this guy over 5,000 texts, claiming she loved him and him alone, disparaging me constantly, telling him how wonderful, gorgeous, sexy he was, all throughout each and every day.  Over the same time period she sent me THREE texts.  She claimed she either had no credit or her phone didn't receive/send texts for some reason from my phone.

She had sex with him over 300 times.  I got mainly excuses that she had problems "down there".  He really did get the woman I wanted, and she knew without question that I wanted that woman.  She just chose to give it to him.

It feels as though she kept me ticking along in the background, giving me the minimum she could to just "keep up appearances".  The nice house and material things, the loving family, the doting partner, the unconditional trust.  It just doesn't feel as though she ever really wanted me.  She really did give everything I craved so much to him.

My point is the same as before.  You were *family* to her.  It is feelings of *family* which bring out the dysfunctional/disordered aspect of her BPD.  For all you know, the other guys is dying to be like-"family" to her.  Could you be with a woman for six years, listening to how "awful" her husband treats her day-in day-out, but still she chooses to be with her husband and not you?  What message would that send you?  How would your self-esteem be then?

To be honest, this other man was also a serial cheat and a liar.  They were actually almost like two BPD peas in a pod from what I now see.  What I did see from reading her messages to him and vice versa though is that he treated her like a piece of meat.  "Come here now and let me f*** your p*ssy" would be the general tone of message from him.  Hers were much more emotion based, constantly bombarding him with affection to keep him there.

She actually also cheated on the "other man" with his best friend while the he went away on holiday with his wife and child.  And towards the very end of the six years she went into overdrive and ended up having relationships in one form or another with 48 men, behind both of our backs.  These were all short term thrills.  She tried it on with all of them in very sexual and emotional ways, but again everything I wanted from her from day one, and everything I never got.

I realise that the feeling of "family" may have terrified her, so maybe she went for an option that she knew could never give that, but as you can probably tell I am just finding it really hard to deal with the things she did with in the long term affair.  I saw these as the things I so badly wanted, but resigned myself to probably never getting them.  To see someone else getting everything you wanted so much is just soul destroying.

Superwaz... .  I know all this is confusing and hurts like hell... .  I have the T shirt!... .  

For one minute... .  just one minute... .  try to give your mind some space and peace... .  from all this.

Put aside her WORDS... .  just forget them... .  as if they don't exist... .  after all, they are just words... .  and they have proved to be very far from the truth before... .  

Now in that space you have allowed yourself... .  look at her behaviour... .  

Do you want to be with someone that behaves this way?... .  

Newton, honestly I would love to be able to stay with her for the good of the children.  She is making all the right noises in understanding her problems and coming clean about lots of hard things to admit, but there's always a part of me wondering if she'll get through therapy and just need the same things as before.  My best wasn't enough the first time around, will she truly be able to appreciate it next time?  I can only live in hope and have faith in her.  This didn't turn out too well for me last time.

Once again I feel I must say to you that I really appreciate your insights and the time you take in helping me through this. 

[afterdeath]

All I can say is you're a much better man than I. Much respect for holding your family together with all that going on. I'm betting you cry a lot secretly, I know I did. I'd cry at night in bed laying next to her and she never even knew.

Personally I would've totally lost it on her and it wouldn't have been good.

You're a great man indeed. Always remember this and don't let her break you and take that from you. Respect your own self worth. Jesus himself would be proud of you for turning the other cheek and loving your enemy.

Good luck to you man, hold on to all that evidence, you will need it for the future. Much respect to you, again, you're a way better man than me

[JJ_GA]

SuperWaz,

Similar situation, only without the actual extramarital sex (as far as I can tell).  My wife was always pretty sexually conservative, and only seemed to enjoy sex when she was drunk (which became more and more frequent throughout the course of our marriage).  I caught her in several texting affairs, and it was like she was a different person.  Her text messages were really clingy, and sounded like something a teenage girl would send ("do you really think about me?", "i need you to hold me", "i'm giggling", etc).  And it was also really obsessive.  She started up a fling with our son's tennis coach, and the first day she started texting him, she sent close to 100 messages.  Some just silly, teenage girl stuff, and some pretty sexual.  She would sometimes stay up until 2-3 AM sending texts, and then resume at 5-6 AM after a few hours of sleep.

The most puzzling thing is, the guys she picks are complete losers.  She's in this torrid text romance right now with some fat slob with a nowhere job, but the two of them seem to mind-meld on this junior-high-school emotional level, judging from their text exchanges.  It's really strange, but that's the nature of BPD.

Here's my assessment of living with an unfaithful BPD spouse (I'm not a psychologist, but I've lived with a BPD wife for 17 years, so I have an honorary degree in personality disorders):

- You'll never really figure out who you're married to, and it will drive you crazy.  You'll wonder whether the person you fell in love with is the "real" person, or whether she (or he) is the facade, and the "real" person is the one who's been running around behind your back.  You'll suspect that your marriage has been a farce all along, and that you've been used as an emotional security blanket or a meal ticket.  You'll go back and forth on which scenario you think is the truth, but you'll never really be sure.  The answer is you're living with a person with a fractured identity; an incomplete sense of self.  You're living with several masks that she wears to cover the emptiness within.  You'll never get to know the "real" person inside, because she doesn't exist as a single, integrated identity.

- The disorder is almost certainly not fixable.  My wife has seen numerous psychologists and psychiatrists, and there were times that I thought she was at least on the road to getting it behind her, but the behaviors would always return.  At the core of the problem is the undeveloped sense of self.  Many mental disorders can be treated, but IMO, you can't create a "self" inside an adult where none exists.  The sense of self is something that either develops in early childhood, or it doesn't.  I think the best you can hope for is to mitigate some of the complications (substance abuse, for example).  There are probably cases in which people have been "cured" of BPD through years of intensive therapy, but most people with BPD won't commit to that.  My wife would go to therapy for a while, and then quit because she thought her problems were fixed, or because it was too far to drive, whatever.  I think the nature of the disorder makes it difficult for BPD sufferers to make the long-term commitment to treatment.  As for my wife, she also lied to her therapist (for instance, telling him she wasn't drinking after she had started again), and I think this is also fairly common with BPD patients, so that complicates the treatment as well.

- BPD spouses are master manipulators.  My wife sobbed and confessed, and told me how she was wracked with guilt and remorse, and that same night, she was sexting some other guy.  You'll fall for it at least once, and think that the two of you are starting life anew, and everything will seem right with the world, and then you'll be crushed to find that it's happening again (or never stopped in the first place).  Wash, rinse, repeat for as long as you choose to endure it.

If there was childhood sexual abuse involved, you're dealing with a real mess, and I know that may sound callous, but it's true.  My wife was victimized for several years when she was very young, and I feel very sorry for her.  I can't imagine the pain that she has experienced for nearly her entire life.  But sympathy aside, she is so messed up from this horrible trauma, that I don't think it can ever be resolved to the extent that she can have a normal relationship.  I think she can get to the point where she can live a happy life, but I don't think she can ever form the kinds of healthy emotional attachments that make for a good marriage.

So there you go.  Pretty pessimistic, I know, but realistic, in my opinion.  I wish you the best of luck.

[afterdeath]

Jj. You are also a good man. You seem to handle it so calmly. I wish I had that will power.

I can relate as my ex always needed to be drunk for sex too, she said it helped her relax. But yet she couldn't understand why I'd get upset when she would go out drinking with her male office mates.

She also left me for a fat slob nine years her senior.

I felt like Adam Sandler in big daddy. "that guy with the old wrinkly balls". yuck, gross!

[SuperWaz]

All I can say is you're a much better man than I. Much respect for holding your family together with all that going on. I'm betting you cry a lot secretly, I know I did. I'd cry at night in bed laying next to her and she never even knew.  Personally I would've totally lost it on her and it wouldn't have been good.

You're a great man indeed. Always remember this and don't let her break you and take that from you. Respect your own self worth. Jesus himself would be proud of you for turning the other cheek and loving your enemy.

Good luck to you man, hold on to all that evidence, you will need it for the future. Much respect to you, again, you're a way better man than me... .  

I felt like Adam Sandler in big daddy. "that guy with the old wrinkly balls". yuck, gross!

Thank you for your support, afterdeath.   I had to chuckle when I read your second response.  "He has a five year plan... .  ".  "What is it? Don't die?"  :D   I too have done my fair share of crying, exactly the same as you - laying in bed while she sleeps.

The most puzzling thing is, the guys she picks are complete losers.  She's in this torrid text romance right now with some fat slob with a nowhere job, but the two of them seem to mind-meld on this junior-high-school emotional level, judging from their text exchanges.  It's really strange, but that's the nature of BPD.

- You'll never really figure out who you're married to, and it will drive you crazy.  You'll wonder whether the person you fell in love with is the "real" person, or whether she (or he) is the facade, and the "real" person is the one who's been running around behind your back.  You'll suspect that your marriage has been a farce all along, and that you've been used as an emotional security blanket or a meal ticket.  You'll go back and forth on which scenario you think is the truth, but you'll never really be sure.  The answer is you're living with a person with a fractured identity; an incomplete sense of self.  You're living with several masks that she wears to cover the emptiness within.  You'll never get to know the "real" person inside, because she doesn't exist as a single, integrated identity.

- The disorder is almost certainly not fixable.  My wife has seen numerous psychologists and psychiatrists, and there were times that I thought she was at least on the road to getting it behind her, but the behaviors would always return.  At the core of the problem is the undeveloped sense of self.  Many mental disorders can be treated, but IMO, you can't create a "self" inside an adult where none exists.  The sense of self is something that either develops in early childhood, or it doesn't.  I think the best you can hope for is to mitigate some of the complications (substance abuse, for example).  There are probably cases in which people have been "cured" of BPD through years of intensive therapy, but most people with BPD won't commit to that.  My wife would go to therapy for a while, and then quit because she thought her problems were fixed, or because it was too far to drive, whatever.  I think the nature of the disorder makes it difficult for BPD sufferers to make the long-term commitment to treatment.  As for my wife, she also lied to her therapist (for instance, telling him she wasn't drinking after she had started again), and I think this is also fairly common with BPD patients, so that complicates the treatment as well.

- BPD spouses are master manipulators.  My wife sobbed and confessed, and told me how she was wracked with guilt and remorse, and that same night, she was sexting some other guy.  You'll fall for it at least once, and think that the two of you are starting life anew, and everything will seem right with the world, and then you'll be crushed to find that it's happening again (or never stopped in the first place).  Wash, rinse, repeat for as long as you choose to endure it.

If there was childhood sexual abuse involved, you're dealing with a real mess, and I know that may sound callous, but it's true.  My wife was victimized for several years when she was very young, and I feel very sorry for her.  I can't imagine the pain that she has experienced for nearly her entire life.  But sympathy aside, she is so messed up from this horrible trauma, that I don't think it can ever be resolved to the extent that she can have a normal relationship.  I think she can get to the point where she can live a happy life, but I don't think she can ever form the kinds of healthy emotional attachments that make for a good marriage.

So there you go.  Pretty pessimistic, I know, but realistic, in my opinion.  I wish you the best of luck.

Geez, JJ_GA.  I'm sorry you are going through something similar - that doesn't sound like I'm in for a happy ending any time soon.  The men my SO went for were also all complete losers.  Liars, cheats, violent, you name it.   My SO is at least sticking to therapy for now, but who knows what goes on behind closed doors or in her head.  I wish I did - my decision would be a whole lot easier (assuming I can get these mental images of her with others out of my head in the first place).

The 'fragmented' theory rings true.  There are so many versions of my SO going around, I have no idea which one I will get even if I stick to the end.  She doesn't have a real identity, she's never created one.  I wonder if she will ever be capable of creating one, who knows.

I'm wondering more and more if I am here not just for the kids, but because I have some kind of superhero complex.  I REALLY do want to help her even if I leave at the end of it (which looks most likely) and it seems like everyone else has turned their back.  They are probably the smart ones, but surely she deserves belief and support from someone?  Without those things I think she'll be on a one way road to misery and further tragedy.

[afterdeath]

I spit snot out I started laughing at the don't die plan comment  :-)

Yes I felt the same way as you. Confused if I was staying for the daughter or my moral code. In the end she will be the one to dispose of you, though I guess if you are able to handle her cheating she might not, I couldn't handle it anymore and stood up for myself and she didn't like that so she kicked me out.

I read somewhere that if you let them do things such as being promiscuous with others they will never leave you because they just need that fix of knowing they are still attractive to new sources.

I'm not strong enough for that nor do I believe that to be my moral code, I also got sick of being the punching bag while every one else got dream version of her.

[SuperWaz]

I spit snot out I started laughing at the don't die plan comment  :-)

Yes I felt the same way as you. Confused if I was staying for the daughter or my moral code. In the end she will be the one to dispose of you, though I guess if you are able to handle her cheating she might not, I couldn't handle it anymore and stood up for myself and she didn't like that so she kicked me out.

I read somewhere that if you let them do things such as being promiscuous with others they will never leave you because they just need that fix of knowing they are still attractive to new sources.

I'm not strong enough for that nor do I believe that to be my moral code, I also got sick of being the punching bag while every one else got dream version of her.

I also couldn't live with cheating or even her lying any more.  She did it just wayyyy too much until she got caught.  I am here supporting her through this, we are not together, but still it's either my way or the highway now, and if I gave her another chance and caught her cheating again I would sadly likely just flip, use all the evidence I have against her and send her to jail.

It's a shame, but I'm just waiting for the bomb to drop... .  

[JJ_GA]

Geez, JJ_GA.  I'm sorry you are going through something similar - that doesn't sound like I'm in for a happy ending any time soon.  The men my SO went for were also all complete losers.  Liars, cheats, violent, you name it.   My SO is at least sticking to therapy for now, but who knows what goes on behind closed doors or in her head.  I wish I did - my decision would be a whole lot easier (assuming I can get these mental images of her with others out of my head in the first place).

The 'fragmented' theory rings true.  There are so many versions of my SO going around, I have no idea which one I will get even if I stick to the end.  She doesn't have a real identity, she's never created one.  I wonder if she will ever be capable of creating one, who knows.

I'm wondering more and more if I am here not just for the kids, but because I have some kind of superhero complex.  I REALLY do want to help her even if I leave at the end of it (which looks most likely) and it seems like everyone else has turned their back.  They are probably the smart ones, but surely she deserves belief and support from someone?  Without those things I think she'll be on a one way road to misery and further tragedy.

SuperWaz, the one thing I've learned about BPD is that most of it seems to defy rational explanation.  You'll find yourself going crazy trying to make sense of things that will never make sense: what does she see in these losers? why doesn't she love me when I've been so good to her? why is she so self-destructive?  why is she so sexually conservative with me and so promiscuous with other men?  why would someone get married only to start an affair weeks later? And you'll wonder, "What did I do to deserve this?" 

Trying to fit this behavior into a rational context that you can understand is extremely frustrating, because it's irrational by nature.  Her brain simply isn't wired the same way yours is (or most people's).  But what's so confusing about BPD is that she can appear rational on the surface.  People with BPD are very good at appearing normal. You can go for years believing that you're married to a perfectly well-adjusted, healthy person, only to find out that there's a very broken, irrational person that has been hiding in plain sight, and coming to that realization is a very confusing, emotional experience.  You're trying to mentally reconcile the identity of hers you thought you knew with the identity you've just met, but you can't piece the two of them together in any way that makes sense.

That was the process I went through, and it was confusing and and painful beyond belief.  We had a terrific marriage for the first seven years - rarely fought, enjoyed time together, laughed all the time, and spoke frequently of our deep affection for one another.  People commented all the time on how much they envied our relationship.  We won the "cutest couple" award at a golf tournament dinner.  I really thought we were the two luckiest people on earth.

All that changed in an instant, when I found out she started a torrid affair with a man she had met just days earlier.  I overheard her talking to him on the phone, explaining a ruse she was going to make up to get out of the house for an entire Saturday so they could be together.  She told him "I love you" (did I mention they had just met a few days before?).  And just days before she met this guy, she had written me a love letter that was so touching, I had taped it to the refrigerator door.  When I looked at the phone bill, I saw that she had been calling him dozens of times a day, all day long.  I felt like Shelly Duvall in The Shining when she discovers that her husband has been typing "all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy" over and over for months - it was shocking to the point of being semi-horrifying.  I had gone to bed one night with the love of my life and had woken up the next day with a complete stranger.

Anyway, the point of my story is to illustrate just how bizarre this personality disorder can be.  I was only able to find peace when I was able to stop trying to figure it out and let go, and that was difficult.  I had to say goodbye to the person I loved so deeply.  In a way, it was as if she had died, but it was even more painful, because I had to accept the fact that she had never really existed.

My advice is this: if you want to help her to protect your children, that's a good motive.  But be honest with yourself.  If you're really sticking with it to bring back the person you loved, you're probably setting yourself up for another broken heart, IMO.  These people are very skillful manipulators.  Twice, I was completely convinced that things were "back to normal" and as soon as I let my guard down, it would start all over again.  Just be careful, and really - be honest with yourself about this relationship.

[charred]

I have dealt with a pwBPD that was similar at times.  Sounds to me like you were her safe harbor, and he was unattainable due to being married... so she was with you both. If he were available and wanted to be with her... .  suspect she would run away. You wonder why now she is willing to do things she didn't before... .  now she fears losing you. Doubt she has a strong sex interest in either of you... .  I think they just use sex to get what they want, its a tool, not a true sign of deep affection.

An NPD person would go ahead and do whatever you wanted to that she wouldn't, then dump her... .  I am glad you are nicer. Wish I knew something that would make it all better, but the disorder is running the show and no one wins.

[SuperWaz]

Thank you JJ_GA and charred.  I appreciate your advice I can feel every ounce of pain you are going through or have been through.

I know the right thing to do is to leave, but there's this little part of me that just wants to believe that she's going to be fixed.  Like I said, she's trying hard on the surface, but I can never know what's bubbling underneath.

May I ask what you SO did to help herself?  In addition to her therapy, mine is reading everything she can, trying to understand it (and failing to most of the time), trying to eliminate attention seeking behaviours, but emotionally she still seems so very broken and dead to me.

To put it into context she just (as i am writing) received news that a family member on his death bed could "go" at any time.  Her response was immediate tears and the statement that "I must be feeling and understanding more - I didn't even get this upset when my nan died and I was so close to her... .  "

Five minutes later she's sitting there dry eyed, asking me what to say to her family members, and seems more concerned with "what made him suddenly get so bad?" and seems most upset with the fact that the family have told her there is no point going to say goodbye since "he isn't aware of anything".

Thank you again.

[charred]

What did my SO do to help herself... sought refuge with other guys mostly. She first messed up my life about 30 yrs ago when we were talking marriage and she dumped me... without explanation, and took up with a neighbor of mine, so I would see her kissing him.  I considered murder or suicide and decided to move 1500 miles away instead (didn't understand or know about the BPD then)... leaving my business, my family, my friends and my home... .  and getting nothing but out. Most recently... 7 mos ago, we were supposed to move in together... instead she went NC, and a few weeks later had another guy on her FB pages. I figured heck with her... she started bugging me to get back together... .  she had prompted me to divorce (and cost me a job)... and I wanted no part of it. So a few months ago she starts saying she has to have a medical procedure... on FB. I contact her and find out she needed one... .  for the STD she got from the guy she ran to THIS time. So while I still may talk to her LC... .  I am pretty well past idealizing her for sure. Wish I had never laid eyes on her. We have been together and apart at least 7 times... .  each worse than one before.

Other than that... .  she does nothing, denies she has a problem or ever did... 7 broken engagements, 2 ex husbands and whatever I am to her... and countless other guys that didn't work out... .  but its not her. Never seen as hateful a person as her in her hater phase... .  OMG... pure evil. The clinging phase... .  pure pathetic... .  the seducer... .  not pure anything... seems fake... .  so from what I can tell, when she is nice its an act, when she is wigging out or mad... .  its her 100%.

If your pwBPD is anything like mine... .  I hope you run and don't stop. I always had hope things would work out "this time"... .  and it was always about 10x worse damage than I picked as a "whats the worst that could happen" scenario.  Take your lumps, take up with someone else and never look back.

[JJ_GA]

>>I think they just use sex to get what they want, its a tool, not a true sign of deep affection.

charred, you hit the nail on the head, and waz, that's what you need to understand if you want to put this relationship in perspective.  What I came to understand about my BPD wife is that much of what she does is driven by either: a need to manipulate a person or situation, or a need to fill the vast nothingness within her.  So for instance, she engages in intense, obsessive relationships with men she barely knows, in a desperate attempt to fill the emptiness inside her and make her feel worthwhile.  She sends them sexual messages to keep them engaged, and to keep the validation flowing.  She writes, "I love you SO much!" in letters and notes to me not because she really loves me, but to keep me from abandoning her.  She gets drunk almost every night, but then wants to have sex so that I won't get on her case about drinking.  The minute I get on her case about drinking - no sex for you!  So it really is just a means to an end.

It's hard to accept that what you've always taken to be genuine love and affection is really just manipulation.  For me, the epiphany came when I read through some of her texts to one of her boyfriends and found that she was saying many of the things to him that she had said to me.  All the "o" stuff, and the "I hate it when you're away" -- it was all just garbage.  Reusable lines that she pulls out of her bag of manipulative tricks.  And then, of course, she tells me that he's a total idiot who means nothing to her (which is entirely plausible, because they usually are idiots), but what she doesn't realize is that she's admitting to manipulating him too!

I don't think that people with BPD lie and manipulate because they're evil or malevolent.  I think they do it because it's what they know how to do.  I don't think my wife even thinks about whether it's right or wrong.  She's been doing it her whole life - it's as natural and effortless as tying her shoes.  But that's also what makes them so dangerous as a SO.  They are so skilled at lying and manipulating that you'll fall for it over and over again.  They can write a love letter that will make you cry, but to them it's just words on a page; a cleverly-crafted incantation designed to achieve a desired end result.  And that fact that you're in love with this person and you so desperately want to believe the things she's saying just makes it easier for her to pull the wool over your eyes.

Waz, what you described about her starting an affair within weeks of your marriage is so f-d up, I can't see how that's fixable with any amount of therapy.  That is a person with a head full of broken glass, 

[SuperWaz]

Waz, what you described about her starting an affair within weeks of your marriage is so f-d up, I can't see how that's fixable with any amount of therapy.  That is a person with a head full of broken glass, 

Well, when I got with her I now know that she was still sleeping with her ex, so she has effectively cheated for the whole time.   Obviously playing the safe option until she was sure about me even though she hated him so much.

The first two weeks of our relationship were great, and on day 13 I had to work so could not see her.  That was the day I apparently rejected her totally and she kept sleeping with the guy she kissed on day 14 for the next six years.  Through all the great times, childbirth, and the most special, happy moments of my life, I now know I was just playing a supporting role to keep up appearances.

He rejected her too throughout the six years, but she kept going back for more, and would give him even more of the things I wanted each time she did.  These things really sting.

You're right of course though, sex is just a tool.  These people have a whole toolbox full of tools the same that they'll use to hide the emptiness and they don't seem to have any limits to using them. 

I just don't think I can get the many mental images out of my head.  How do you remove images of the conservative, wonderful woman I loved with her legs wrapped around another man's waist, shouting profanities at him, as they have sex in public on the bonnet (hood) of my car?  These things are going to be anchored there forever.

[charred]

Some general advice... wish I had been given; People treat you the way they treat other people. If someone meets you is intense, and quickly goes to bed with you... .  that is what they do. It isn't you, it means you found someone that hops in to bed at a moments notice. While that may be fun and make you feel special when it is you. When they do what they do... .  with someone else, quickly... .  it isn't them changing, it is you attributing things to a relationship, that may not have really been there to them.

If they tell you all the guys they have ever been with were jerks and worse (paint them black)... they are telling you that ... .  they will say bad things about people when they are no longer in the room with them. So do not be surprised when you hear the same things said about you, when you are not present. The person doing it HAS NOT CHANGED... .  you had a little bitty voice/red flag going on that you chose to ignore, and then you are upset by the consequences. And if you hear bad things that your person said about you, and they are still with you... .  then they will say bad things about people... .  and still be sleeping with them, so all the bad stuff you heard about their ex... .  doesn't mean that there is no way they would still sleep with them... it only means what they are showing you with their behavior... that they will say bad stuff and act like the other person is special. People are typically consistent ... .  and we typically ignore what they do/say and assume we are special and different.

By the way, I ignored    , myself... .  has been a tough lesson.

[JJ_GA]

I just don't think I can get the many mental images out of my head.  How do you remove images of the conservative, wonderful woman I loved with her legs wrapped around another man's waist, shouting profanities at him, as they have sex in public on the bonnet (hood) of my car?  These things are going to be anchored there forever.

Waz, I know where you are, believe me, I was there myself.  My guess is that you're experiencing feeling that you can't even describe.  It's feels like grief, sadness, anger, betrayal, confusion, self-doubt, and a half dozen other emotions all rolled up into one horrible emotion that doesn't have a name, and at times it seems like this thing is going to consume you.

When I was at the depth of my grief, I had a vision.  I saw myself standing at the end of a long foot bridge, looking across a river.  On the other side of the river was the one thing I wanted more than anything else: peace.  Freedom from the turmoil that had been brought into my life by my wife's behavior.  I wanted to walk across the bridge, but I found I couldn't, because I was carrying two large suitcases, one in each hand.  Inside the suitcases were all of the horrible negative feelings I had been allowing to take over my life.  The bridge was too narrow for me to cross with the bags; the only way to get to the other side was to set them down and walk across alone, leaving the bags behind for good.  And so I did, Waz - I walked across, and something miraculous happened.  All of those feelings that had been destroying me suddenly drained away.  It was almost as if I could actually feel them leaving my body.  And I stood on the other side of the bridge, and it was just me, and it was a wonderful feeling.  Peace of mind and a sense of calm had returned.  I had my life back, and I had myself back. I knew that I would never go back across the bridge.  It's a one-way journey.

Waz, the bridge is there for you, and you can cross it if you like, when you're ready.  You may find it difficult to set the bags down; your hands will be tightly clenched around the handles.  But set them down you must, if you want to get to the other side.  But I promise you - the other side is there, and it is exactly what I have described.  I wish you peace, my friend.

[hithere]

My BPDSO cheated the whole time we were together, starting just 14 days into a relationship she "had always wanted".

During this time she gave me nothing sexually, saying she just "couldn't do that", or "didn't like that"etc.  This lasted six years.

Why? You will never be privy to her reality, I would say don't spend time thinking about it.  Get therapy and move on, you already wasted 6 years.

[charred]

Something I have noticed... .  we seem to put our pwBPD up on pedestals... and that means we idolize them a bit... and nothing good ever comes from that in dating, far as I can tell. The gals that I was side by side in the trenches... natural and wanting to do dirty stuff with... those relationships, were honest and when they didn't work out, we both knew it, had no hang ups, little in the way of hurt feelings, and went on. The "soul mate" perfect, I can't believe they go to the bathroom... .  r/s... .  ALWAYS ended in disillusionment, hurt and trouble.

I am getting older no doubt, but I am realizing women are like men to the degree they sometimes want sex and they are often not like men in that they will have sex with people for more than just the reason that they "look good." It also is pretty clear that sex and love are NOT the same thing... .  if we are assuming that they love us because they had sex with us... .  we are taking an unjustifiable leap of faith, and stand a good chance of crashing, if it turns out they see things differently, which over and over ... .  they did.

I have been told I am a cynic... .  but when someone professes to love you too soon, be cynical. If it is the real thing, it will be comfortable like an old shoe, and fit right, not intense like the bottom falling out of a roller coaster.

[JJ_GA]

The "soul mate" perfect, I can't believe they go to the bathroom... .  r/s... .  ALWAYS ended in disillusionment, hurt and trouble.

I have been told I am a cynic... .  but when someone professes to love you too soon, be cynical. If it is the real thing, it will be comfortable like an old shoe, and fit right, not intense like the bottom falling out of a roller coaster.

Good observations, charred, and you're right on the mark with the "soul mate" comment.  I thought I had found my soul mate in my BPD wife.  In fact, we used to say to each other, "What are the odds that out of all the people in the world, we somehow found each other?"  We seemed so compatible it was uncanny.  What I later came to understand was that wasn't the real her.  She basically molded herself to match my personality, sense of humor, preferences, tastes, political views, etc.  One of her sister recently told me, "When she's just around us, she's totally different.  It's always been strange to see how she acts when she's with you."

[charred]

Sorry I was on the mark, that means you have been in for some deep hurting and disillusionment.

Its worse than that... .  I have been digging in to a questions that gnaws at me... .  Why was it so intense?... and Why did I have so much trouble breaking free of her? And the answers I came up with, are ... .  really disturbing.

In my case, my mom was cold and detached, her mother died when she was 5 yrs old, and her dad left not long after to be in WW2... so she had real deep attachment issues. So as a little kid my mom wasn't very unconditionally loving, in fact she was kind of distant. We moved every 3-4 yrs and I would lose all my friends and have to start over, and after a while I just kept people at a distance, like you would in a business relationship... .  cordial, but not close enough for it to hurt anyone when you move on... .  and not close enough to be true intimacy at all.

My pwBPD came along and ignored my boundaries that kept people at arms length... and seemed perfect to me... and she idealized me (at first)... and I was smitten. To me... I think deep down it was unconditional love at last.  Then I was confused by the clinging phase, as I had no intention of ever leaving her, and then devastated when she abruptly left me.

The devastation wasn't like a typical girlfriend breakup... had plenty of those, no big deal, it was devastation... .  like losing your mother... and I didn't get over it. I moved away to keep from being suicidal or homicidal (she showed up dating my next door neighbor, when we had been planning to be married a few weeks before)... and it was a good 10 yrs before I functioned normally ... settled down, married. Then some 27 yrs after we had dated... she contacted me on FB and within a month we were back together, I was getting a divorce... and the bad stuff in the r/s started up again.

I am normally very level headed... .  but with her I wasn't... .  and she didn't rate any special consideration, all I can figure is that she slipped in to that spot where a good mother should have been... and from some kind of cockeyed transference thing... .  I attached to her out of my need, like someone would a mother. She was not nice to me much of the time, bossed me around, acted morally high and mighty, and I seemed to hang on her every word. Then I would sometimes step back for a second and have a moment of clarity and think ... What the heck? But the idea that maybe she was so deeply attached to me... .  not because it was true love, but because deep down I was truly needy and she seemed like what I needed (a loving mother)... .  has creeped me out and is disturbing. I slept with her and it was intense... but I was distracted by good looks.

Now if I were the only one with this way out of proportion response to their pwBPD... .  I would just be embarrassed. The stories on these boards, the intensity of the relationships, the devastation when they end abruptly... .  I am afraid I am on to the true origin of it all, and it isn't just the pwBPD that is acting with the emotional maturity of a 3 yr old... .  we are right there with them! Not my favorite revelation.

[SuperWaz]

Thanks guys for the support.  You speak wise words!

Charred, your revelation is one that many of us have felt.  The more we look into the terrible things out partners have done and the reasons behind it, the more we all see similarities in ourselves.  I've been guilty of quite a few things that are borderline-like, but they're far from the norm for me.

For most it's not our natural stance or way of acting, we simply get drawn into their BPD world and they're masters of keeping you in their world.

It's perfectly normal to idolise or dote on a woman when you think she's doing the same to you.  It does become very intense.  Sadly, as you know, they are able to switch this off in an instant.  The rest of us aren't that lucky.

[charred]

That creepy substitute for the mom you never had thing... .    is bugging me... .  otherwise... .  I have never had an issue getting over someone, heck, I ususally don't have a deep connection. The intensity is too much for a normal relation, and it lasts way beyond normal. I am still thinking there is some kind of primary bond issue in BOTH the pwBPD and all of us, that is kicking this off. The karpman drama triangle doesn't really explain it in a way that seems right... .  yes at times I was rescuer, she was victim... then she was persecutor... hater, etc. But I have dealt with other people that were in role of victim, role of rescuer and even role of persecutor, and they didn't have the intensity that this r/s did. The idea that its some kind of transference of what didn't happen right with our primary bond... .  while weird... just seems to fit. And bothers me right down to the ground.

My whole life has been derailed twice, I have divorced, lost my family, lost a lot of money, a going business with three locations, the best paying job I ever had, and it was the result of an attraction to a disordered person... .  who seemed more like a good mother than my mom... .  but is nearly Jodi Arias evil? What kind of twilight zone am I living in?

[Newton]

charred ... .  this uncomfortable revelation is a gift from a rs with a pwBPD.  It's unlikely you would have had this sort of introspection or realization otherwise... .  

Yes the knowledge is a little startling at first... .  but it opens up a very new way of experiencing the world and perceiving potential future partners... .  I'm talking from first hand experience... .  

[charred]

charred ... .  this uncomfortable revelation is a gift from a rs with a pwBPD.  It's unlikely you would have had this sort of introspection or realization otherwise... .  

Yes the knowledge is a little startling at first... .  but it opens up a very new way of experiencing the world and perceiving potential future partners... .  I'm talking from first hand experience... .  

I can see that... just... it is discouraging. Suspect I can pick out a BPD person at a 100 yds ... .  but hope not to test that. Can't see myself looking for a super motherly type at this point... that isn't disordered... what good experience have you had first hand as a result of these types of insights?

My pwBPD... no hope of that r/s working out, ever. I don't want more of the same kind of dysfunctional person... and what I understand of attraction... .  I am most likely to really resonate with someone like my pwBPD. So that makes me wonder what I can do to fix myself... and everything I have seen seems to indicate that while you can make some small changes like getting more comfortable socially, actually changing who your are at the level of attachment theory... .  is pretty rare, and at 50, it seems unlikely. I am driven to distraction and seldom keep at something for a long time when it comes to habit changing activities, solving a mystery is possible... .  makes me think the outlook for real change is dismal... though I agree its given me some new insight.

[Newton]

... .  "actually changing who you are at the level of attachment theory... .  is pretty rare"... .  really?

If we look at the senior members here across all the boards a great deal of them appear to have managed this change... .  it takes hard work and persistence but it does pay off and I'm sure many of them would agree that they will always be a work in progress... .  constantly learning more about themselves and refining positive thoughts and behaviour.

You specifically asked about good experiences as a result of these FOO insights?... .  Where would I begin!  I'll try to keep it short for fear of hijacking... .  


-Appreciating the similarity in the dynamic of me at an early age learning/adopting the role of caregiver to a needy parent... .  with feeling uncomfortably comfortable with the same role in romantic relationships (most of them!).

-Taking my self worth from "being there" for someone else and having little clue what I wanted or needed.

-Accepting that very dysfunctional thinking/attachment has occupied a large part of my adult life and striving my best to break the cycle (having self worth and consequentially improving my "picker" as it were).

-Developing much firmer boundaries with everyone in my life (not just romantic partners) which has improved my self esteem no end.

-Being much kinder to myself... .  my inner critic voice is now rather quiet compared to how deafening it used to be.

-Feeling ok about not currently being in a relationship.


I could go on but hopefully you get the gist... .  the positives have primarily been about changing my relationship with MYSELF... .  I firmly believe that the romantic rs stuff will fall into place as a consequence of this... .  not the other way around