Bizarre bathroom behavior ?

[Parents! Get help here!]

I'm wondering if anyone else has experienced bizarre bathroom behavior in their BPD kids now or when younger?

My SS toilet trained late. Very very late. That was my first real red flag as he was 4 and refused to poop in the toilet.

I found him a therapist then as BPDmom and my H and preschool and especially me were at wits end. Was 5y and the spring before kindergarten when he finally did.

Now at 10 years old every trip to the bathroom for SS is still some kind of trip into a vortex.

Some things he might do on any given trip to the bathroom:

brings in oddly match toys and books and devices.

Talks to himself and plays pretend out loud.

He writes weird stuff in journals or dry erase board.

He puts poop on the walls sometimes.

Leaves it on the seat,

Plugs the toilet.

Sings.

Forgets to wash hands.

Lies about washing hands.

Never wipes.

Vocalizes.

Puts marker on his face and lips or hands.

Bathes oddly or too long or with too much water.

Anything can happen.

Anyone else seen this kind of thing? 

We do use behavior therapy techniques for the hand washing and leaving a mess, but we can't always catch him and he will deny if possible any blame or not washing his hands.

The rest just is hard to yell at him about but just concerning since we have 4 other kids that share that bathroom and he acts so weird in there.

[mamachelle]

I'm wondering if anyone else has experienced bizarre bathroom behavior in their BPD kids now or when younger?

My SS toilet trained late. Very very late. That was my first real red flag as he was 4 and refused to poop in the toilet.

I found him a therapist then as BPDmom and my H and preschool and especially me were at wits end. Was 5y and the spring before kindergarten when he finally did.

Now at 10 years old every trip to the bathroom for SS is still some kind of trip into a vortex.

Some things he might do on any given trip to the bathroom:

brings in oddly match toys and books and devices.

Talks to himself and plays pretend out loud.

He writes weird stuff in journals or dry erase board.

He puts poop on the walls sometimes.

Leaves it on the seat,

Plugs the toilet.

Sings.

Forgets to wash hands.

Lies about washing hands.

Never wipes.

Vocalizes.

Puts marker on his face and lips or hands.

Bathes oddly or too long or with too much water.

Anything can happen.

Anyone else seen this kind of thing? 

We do use behavior therapy techniques for the hand washing and leaving a mess, but we can't always catch him and he will deny if possible any blame or not washing his hands.

The rest just is hard to yell at him about but just concerning since we have 4 other kids that share that bathroom and he acts so weird in there.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[DogDancer]

Oh, wow, mamachelle.

This is kind of a trip, isn't it. Can you clarify if your SS has a Dx? Has he been Dx'ed as BPD himself? Aspergers? Some of this is a bit aspie sounding. My 10-year-old nephew is dxAspie. He's not quite this loopy about toileting behaviors. Nevertheless, some of it seems in the same neighborhood.

Peace to you,

DogDancer

[mamachelle]

Hi DogDancer

Ss10 has dx of Mood Disorder-Nos and his pdoc said it was 'emerging bipolar'

He is on Lamictal 25 mg 2x a day

Anyway, yes SS10 seems to have some aspergers stuff going on. Unfortunately when we did his neuropsych testing my H filled out the questions for parents for autism spectrum and he normalizes things. His TOM was ok, but so supposedly was his older brother. See below.

his emotional IQ testing was ok too. The problem is in the real world and especially at home he acts strangely has no close friends and also very much like a BPD.

He eats compulsively, has gender identity issues, weird sexual stuff,  overly sensitive, prone to rage over perceived slights, lies constantly, enmeshed lite with BPD mom-- lamictal has helped temper the rages and mood swings luckily.

At any rate, SS10 is a strange kid. In all my research he could fit pre or childhood BPD or Bipolar.

His docs would not even entertain the idea of a dx of BPd at his age but they all privately admit it is in the realm of possible DX as he grows older.

Also since you are seeing it in your own family... Probably worth it to mention older brother

SS15 has a laundry list of Dx:

PDD-Nos w/ some aspergers traits

Bipolar r/ o psychotic features

Learning Disordrer

Emerging thought disorder

Hypotonia

He had a speech delay and also Auditory Processing Disorder

He could have ADHD dx but why bother as the poor kid has enough going on, they tried a few days on a low dose of Concerta and he went manic.

Also abnormal  EEG typical of abnormal seizure activity

He is on Abilify 10mg a day and is now in an excellent HS program for kids with autism and other communication and social disorders that are non violent

Thanks for your comments. It's so confusing sometimes. Just not ready for puberty to hit.

[jellibeans]

When my dd15 was younger we did have problems with her with holding her poop... .  I think it was a control thing... .  had to give her enemas ... .  she was a bed wetter too for a long time and I still think she might wet her bad now but she always seems to get her sheets to the wash quick so I don't really know. She tends to not go to the bathroom at school either... .  only at home. She does spend some time in the tub but I don't think agin of it because she is a girl and needs to shave her legs etc... .  

I don't know if it has anything to do with her DX... .  she was a later talker and was in speech for a few years... .  had a tutor for dyslexia but she never qualified for services through the school... .  

hope this helps... .  have not really thought about it much... .  

[mamachelle]

jellibeans

It's interesting about your daughter.  The neuropsych who didn't live through it called my SS toileting issue a sensory thing.

I don't know. It seemed like a Freudian stage of development had been severely interrupted. The only other friend I know who ever experienced this late potty training in an otherwise developmenally normal kid is also the mom of an adult BPD (adopted) son.

Sigh. Today I was hyper aware of his bathroom visits because I had posted. I think we had him singing the star spangled banner, having a loud argument with fake tears with himself about how he is not treated like a 10 year old,  taking stuffed animals and cell phone in there to play... Oy! So much drama.

He loves acting so maybe I just need to look at it as his stage.  

[DogDancer]

Mamachelle,

I had to kind of laugh. You know, maybe you *should* treat it as his performance stage. If he's got to act out somewhere, and this is one of the main places where he brings all his "stuff" together... .  well, it could be worse. Clearly the hygiene, hand-washing, not-smearing-poo-everywhere aspect is tantamount, which are working on, no doubts. But cha know... .  the rest of it... .  no harm done to anyone, really.

My own aspie nephew, well, his latest fixation is vomiting. He's fairly obsessed with the fact that a girl (quite a little blonde cutie with new glasses), a year younger than he is, vomited during the 3-4th grade Christmas concert. Ostensibly, Nephew was horrified (!) and upset (!) and "had to cry for 40 minutes afterward" and everything was "ruined!" But... .  in reality, I really believe this is his conversational gambit to bring up a) this little chick that he likes (and he pretty well admits it - LOVES it when we tease him about her! - and the love of girlies just might save him as it provides UBER movtivation! ) and b) he's just fascinated by bodily functions at his age (normal dude stuff, really) and c) he's also focussed on this because what else could be more potentially horrifying than losing it with a bodily function in front of an AUDIENCE! (gasp!). So, you know, I'm not too freaked about this obsession. And maybe, just maybe (hygiene/germ issues aside) the bathroom thingy with your SS is okay as a stage, because, heck, we all have to come to grips with the fact that bodily functions occur, AND that the OPPOSITE SEX HAS THEM (gasp! double gasp!).

Big hugs and keep hanging in there!

Peace and healing to us all,

DogDancer

[mamachelle]

Hey DogDancer

Oh man. Sounds like a pretty funny scenario now. You seem like a very engaged and aware aunt. I'm a little jealous as my SIL who is a social worker spec in child development now stay at home mom of 1 perfect 5th grade girl consistently blames all developmental and behavioral weirdness of my SS10 and 15 on their BPDmom (we are the residential parents so they spend majority time with us for many years) or buries her head in the sand. Meanwhile she raises her eyebrows at the relatively normal development of my DD13, 16 and SS 8.

I could go on and on, but suffice to say your nieces and nephews are lucky to have you.

[DogDancer]

mamachelle hi,

I'm still smiling about the Star Spangled Banner episode. You're great at conveying the scenario. Or should I say "Vignette" since you have an "Actor" on your hands.

I wanted to share that aspie Nephew was late to toilet training -- almost five before he was out of diapers. Just not interested in using the pot. Apparently, it gets in the way of your lego playing, fixations with The Wiggles, and endless working on Thomas the Train layouts. My bro and SIL pushed the issue though so he could go to kindergarten. Between 5 and nine, though: lots of potty plugging with huge poops, suspected pluggage, as well, though, because it's fun to flush the toilet, and it's MESMERIZING putting lots of paper in there and flushing and reflushing so you can watch the water and stuff go down!

Nephew was actually prone to sneaking out of classroom in second grade to put items down the potty at school to TRY to plug it up! It was part of his aspie/OCD behavior patterns; he just couldn't stop himself. And really, if you're fascinated with how things work, this is the bonanza, as it combines TWO -- yes, it's a TWOFER! -- of the Coolest. Things. Ever: bodily functions AND mechanical engineering! What finally helped, was the teacher asked the janitor to show Nephew how the toilet works, and explain what he has to do to take it apart when classroom supplies get flushed, which he did so patiently and with the finesse of a connoisseur. This man is a National Treasure. After that, the behavior mostly stopped, and it became a classroom rallying cry, "No, no [Nephew}! Don't go!" whenever the urge would hit Nephew and he'd start to sidle toward the door to make a break for it.

There was also, from 5 to oh, now, a lot of mostly unsuccessful wiping and thus pooh-smearage on the seat, which was, understandably, "Ewwww" for his sisters and the adults. This has been triaged and mitigated with a) boxes of moist wipes on the pot in every bathroom and b) a move to a new house where Nephew has his own bathroom. The lid stays up on all pots. And, somehow, with enough repetition, the handwashing meme caught on. I think bro and SIL drafted/grafted that onto Nephew's repetitive pattern behaviors: It took a while to catch on, but now, there is a-hand-washing-'o-plenty.

Little mannies = slightly tamed (male) wild animals. Aspies/neuro atypicals = slightly wilder. Dudes (Okay, not all. Okay, I suspect many. Most. All but a few.) just enjoy their pot time. It's relieving (check), it's sort of bizarre compared to the rest of your day (check), it's stinky (check) and it gives you power over other small wild animals because you are marking your territory and anything that cause them pause makes YOU GREAT AND POWERFUL! MuwWAHAHAHAAH!

As a girl, it took me many years to learn to laugh at this. Naturally, I toilet trained at nine months. I go quickly and quietly. I try very hard not to smear poop on anything or anyone. I do my best to create poohs that smell only like flowers. Or leave no odor trail at all. And I do not feel the need to brag about my poohs.

I'm sensing a neurobio connection between BPD/Aspie. Some of the research shows some brain stuff that's similar. Both in my fam! The techniques for care and handling of the Young Aspie, though, are likely to be helpful. Maybe it's time for a retake on that Aspie inventory. And you fill out the form this time.

Your SIL: Ignore her. She'll get hers. Karma will ensure it. LOL!

Peace and healing and lots of laughing,

DogDancer

[mamachelle]

Hey DogDancer,

Thanks for your comments.

I agree in the connection. Most clinicians who have met my SS downplay his behaviors because he holds it together in public, makes eye contact etc.

Tonight was bad.

sS 10 flew into a rage because he wanted us to change the channel and stop watching the Super Bowl. He went to the bathroom after screaming I HATE you. I wish you never married my father! Etc

Then he proceeded to pull a tile from the middle of the floor and then we found him with his head in the toilet saying he was going to puke.

I think he is slipping lately. He's put on a lot of weight. I hate to be thnk this way but I think he needs a med increase. Sigh.

Thanks for your insightful posts. They have made me feel like I am on the right path with my SS's

BTW I'm a mom to 2DD 13 and 16 and S 21 months and 3SS. It's never easy. My SS having BPD mom and living with me and nonDad makes things even more interesting... .  

[DogDancer]

mamachelle hi,

I love to laugh at the things that can be laughed, friend, and then there are the others, eh. Wry smile. Sadness in eyes.

Nephew also has tantrums when something doesn't go his way, yelling "I'm RUINED!" "I'm SLAIN!" Lately, too, he's been talking about being dead, and sometimes pushing it to where he knows is way over the boundary -- I wish I were dead. He sort of means it, but he also knows these are fearful, fearsome words, and they even scare him a little... .  I think. When something upsets him, great or small, the acting out can go on for a quick flash or for hours, with his huge dark eyes wide and nearly trancelike. He knows, increasingly, that he is not like others, and in some respects, getting left further behind. He's so competitive that this does slay him.

Bro and SIL have him on Celexa now for depression, and to mitigate anxiety and possibly to aid against the repetitive/OCD-like patterns that so ensnare him. His appetite is good, much better than in the past -- meals with family so phased him that he'd just detach and not eat. Now, these several years later, with much intensive work at home and with professionals, he's feeling more connected, and yet he's so thin. I can't help but think it's partly the strain of it all.

I'm glad that you feel like you're on the right path. I'm sure you are. SS10 is just different. Always will be.

Still... .  and yet... .  when explosions occur, and then the acting out doesn't pass, but continues, it can be scary. I feel for the nieces because Nephew's behavior is so dominating, so all-consuming and the progress is s.l.o.w... .  They are often strained by it as well, although they love it when he's being funny. They love him.

You have your hands full, but trust yourself. It might be time for a meds change if you're intuiting it. Does SS10 do therapeutic talking/CBT sessions with a psychologist? How often? Nephew does, but it seems too infrequent to me at once per month. However, I have the luxury and the lack of control of not being the one calling the shots. My bro and SIL are tired, though, very, and I wonder where they will get the stamina to keep rowing this boat through all the chop yet to come.

Sleep always helps. Rest well. Tomorrow for SS10 may be sunny, and funny, and odd out again, as opposed to the bitter storms of this evening. I hope so.

Peace and healing,

DogDancer

[mamachelle]

Hi DogDancer,

You know this morning on the way in to work, a friend texted me he and his wife (both are Bipolar and I think have other uPDs like BPD or NPD going on) were admitting their daughter to OPT for cutting/depression (sounds very BPD to me). She is 15. Her younger brothers are dx with Autism and severe Bipolar (and I think Bipolar S has some aspergers traits as well based on anecdotal talk).

So, there is yet another for the test group.

SS10 is in therapy with psychologist now every 2 weeks. Talk therapy helps a bit. At this point, he has been with same T since he was 4 so she is very familiar with the family dynamic.

I had a behavior therapist coming for SS8 and SS10 since January but now my insurance does not want to pay since my SS does not have autism dx.  

If you want to be auntie of the year, offer to take each niece and nephew out alone once a week or once in a while. Give your Brother and SIL a break and kids love it.

I have forced my SIL to do this once a week with SS8 and SS10- she picks up from school and takes them for dinner. I know she is kind to do it, but I resent that I had to practically beg her to last year and every time there is a change of semester. Especially considering our sitch with then new baby, SS BPDmom gone across the country. Older SS15 having a serious breakdown that resulted in hospitalization. SIL is so good with the kids too. She actually has patience to do craft projects and stuff like that and all my kids love hanging over at her house.

Take care... .  

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[DogDancer]

Mamachelle hi,

That's totally interesting that you know first hand (yet another?) family with BPD, Aut, Bipolar swirling in the pool. We've got dx BPD (for certain) and the Autism/Aspergers (I'm pretty sure) coming from maternal side. Interestingly, on paternal side, grandfather -- brilliant, successful, always a bit odd, apparently "intense" -- killed himself in the '40s (when he was in his mid-fifties) after starting to decompensate around age 50. He'd gotten a "no hope" Dx at Mayo of schizophrenia, and there were no decent meds back then, but that makes NO sense in terms of what we know about the onset and non-medicated abilities of schizophrenia these days. I strongly suspect it was actually bipolar, and that he'd gotten so bad that he'd started to display paranoia and even have passing hallucinations. There is *no* way he could have been a respected and loved high school principal, and then later a successful business owner with three stores, if he'd always been schiz, which tends to come on in late teens, and almost always before 30.

So... .  quite a bit going on that is very interesting, rabbit, very interesting! Will have to do some research in PubMed to see what's being published about these clusters appearing in families. Do you think with the SSs that all there stuff is through their bio mother's side?

Glad to hear your SS10 is in talk therapy every 2 weeks. That sounds right. Even if it's minimal help, it's help, and it's another witness and participant, who as you say, knows your dynamics.  So... .  insurance would pay for behavior therapist if autism Dx... .  ? Wonder if it IS time to retake that high functioning/Aspie inventory. My Nephew did have behavior therapist 2x per week after school for a year and a half, I think, and it did help, but I'm not sure he's getting that any more.

I'd LOVE to be auntie of the year and pitch in 1 per week or so... .  but they live three states away. i'm afraid my work will take me further away soon, too. So... .  I feel like the armchair quarterback, but I suppose that can be taken as a loving relative who does care rather than a meddler, especially since they do involve me whenever there does seem to be a crunch. I think there's only one other person (SIL's much older stepsis) in the family who gives a hoot, and she lives on the East Coast. So... .  to the extent that I want to be concerned, tag, I'm it.

I'm glad your SIL is helping out... .  even though you had to push. Hopefully that will continue to give everyone just a small but regular respite.

You take care, too, mamachelle. I will look forward to hearing more your ongoing family saga -- and for any good news, and the funny stuff, and the bad news, too, since we know there will be more of all of it.

Peace to you, friend!

DogDancer