International Divorce - Progress Report

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Stbx made it today. Our mutual attorney friend greeted her at the airport. She was served. She demanded to go to our home. Fortunately, the order of protection was in place. Our friend explained very clearly to her what it said and that the judge that signed is also our judge for the divorce proceedings so she best not violate it thus ticking off the judge. Friend helped her get a rental car and check into a hotel. Kids are out of town on a school trip. Friend convinced her that she should get an attorney. Amazingly, she was able to get an appointment with an L tomorrow. My L and I are relieved that she's starting the process. Now we can move forward. Next step is managing a meeting with the kids after they return. She's not allow within 500 feet of me and we can not communicate verbally - email only.

[Jai Yen]

Stbx made it today. Our mutual attorney friend greeted her at the airport. She was served. She demanded to go to our home. Fortunately, the order of protection was in place. Our friend explained very clearly to her what it said and that the judge that signed is also our judge for the divorce proceedings so she best not violate it thus ticking off the judge. Friend helped her get a rental car and check into a hotel. Kids are out of town on a school trip. Friend convinced her that she should get an attorney. Amazingly, she was able to get an appointment with an L tomorrow. My L and I are relieved that she's starting the process. Now we can move forward. Next step is managing a meeting with the kids after they return. She's not allow within 500 feet of me and we can not communicate verbally - email only.

[Rose1]

Great news so far! Expect it to deteriorate and don't break contact yourself. I still stick with my suggestions regarding your kid's safety - cab fare etc. Especially once she has got over jet lag and has worked herself up into a nice rage.  Take care.

[ForeverDad]

This is a disorder of emotional imbalance and dysregulation.  Expect extremes.  She may be raging - or she may morph into the opposite, into victim poor-me mode.  Probably alternating between both.  Be prepared for both possibilities.

[GaGrl]

Steps 1 and 2 done... .  steps 3425 ahead.

[Jai Yen]

Rose suggested in another post that if stbx uN/BPD is high functioning that she likely will work hard to keep up appearances. That was the case today.

She retained her own attorney. Her L contacted my L and said that stbx was very calm and professional. Her desire is to maintain our mutual business. I'm not even close to uncorking the champagne but it is a step in the right direction.

Stbx, not surprisingly, denied some of the events that lead to the order of protection. She also neglected to include the fact that she was married once before on her in-take papers for her L according to our friend that's helping her out. Again fine. She's trying to keep up appearances and hide her "condition". Stbx suggested that we get counseling together to learn to communicate better for the sake of our kids and business. My L made it clear that the marriage is definitely and forever over but I might be open to counseling for the kids sake. Which is true. I'm not sure if there's a real downside to that? Also, her L told my L stbx just had a situational issue which cased her to act out... .  Yeah right. Anyway, better that her L believes that. I'm on the same page as my L - the BPD stuff stays far out of the discussion... .  It's not time to pull the crazy card.

My L told me it is highly irregular that a divorcing couple who share a business can continue the business together after the divorce but it can happen. Fortunately our business requires very little ongoing communication to operate. Once a week for an hour or so it usual enough. Again, I'm not getting too excited but I'm willing to explore ways to maintain the business for the sake of our kids and financial well-being. Whatever agreement we come up with has to have an exit strategy built in for me. I'm willing to continue the business for the next 2~ 3 years until our kids are in college and then I'd prefer to sell my interest in the business to her- or sooner should there be too much conflict. Tomorrow's a new day with need adventures. I'm totally prepared mentally for her to flip-flop and make things complicated again. If she can maintain and we can get some of this stuff resolved soon that later all the better... .  

[Matt]

Stbx suggested that we get counseling together to learn to communicate better for the sake of our kids and business. My L made it clear that the marriage is definitely and forever over but I might be open to counseling for the kids sake. Which is true. I'm not sure if there's a real downside to that?

Our Custody Evaluator - the Ph.D. psychologist who diagnosed my wife - recommended that we get a mediator, and recommended another Ph.D. psychologist in his office.  I agreed, but said let's use him as a "parenting coach" not a mediator, because I did not want to be dragged into anything I didn't think was right.

He was expensive but really good.  We agreed to see him once every two months.

It might be helpful, but if she is living in another country I'm not sure it would work very well for you.  In practical terms, you are the kids' only real parent, and she's a woman they used to know who decided to leave them.  I'm not sure exactly what a mediator or parenting coach would do for you... .  

[Jai Yen]

It true, I'm the only real parent. It's been that way for a very long time. She, fortunately, seems to want the best for their future in terms of college etc... .  This has to do with the kids being sort of fashion statements when they're with her in her country. She "shows them off" to her friends etc who all love our kids. Also, this is a cultural thing too - wanting your kids to get a very good education at a good school etc... .  powerful factor in her country. Again, if that stuff benefits the kids in terms of her being more willing to work with me all the better.

I'll clarify the point of joint counseling again. I told my L I'm open to it if it keeps us moving toward a resolution for the business and assets that I can live with. Maybe she wants to prove that she's not mentally unstable etc... .  Fine. Stbx seems to want to resolve this sooner than later - at least that's the case for now. We have a number of issues to work out. Top on the list is the business which neither one of us wants to walk away from as it provides a good additional income which I need to make ends meet. Also, our business ties in with her job. She would "lose face" big time if the business goes under as a result of our divorce. I've been consistent in my desire to carefully explore ways to continue the business- though staying married is not an option. I'm relieved that the our Ls can help move this along.

[Rose1]

It could work. My exuBPDmil was so into face saving that as far as I know, she only lost it in semi public (family) a couple of times in 85 years and in public not at all. She came across entitled and did things in business that gave her a bad name - ie stop cheques because she didn't like something (felt that was her right), and was not the easiest of landlords since "no one can look after a place they way you do" but held it together. In private she was something else - I witnessed my first BPD rage when I had been married less than 6 months - I was mostly her target.

But how she looked and how her family looked was extremely important to her - not culturally but probably familial.

[Rose1]

On the other hand my exBPDh and I were in business with in laws and I will never repeat that experience. Treated me like dirt. But mostly in private. I learned to never have a 1 on 1 (or with exBPDh present only as he never saw the problem and had turned the rages into care for me by the next day), never have a business meeting without a non related party present. That was the only thing that kept her under control.

[livednlearned]

Co-parenting therapy was recommended by N/BPDxh's (ex) L for both of us during the 1-year separation.

Be careful about counseling. You will not be guaranteed confidentiality, and either of you can call the counselor forward as a witness. A lot of court recommend counselors/therapists are are forensic psychologists and (sorry for the gross over-generalization) a lot of them get into it for the money. It's more lucrative than other kinds of specialties. 

I think counseling is tough for those of us who want to get better and understand how to get along. I think counseling for a couple where one person is pwBPD during a divorce is absurd. I agreed to go only because my L said it made it seem as though I was reasonable, even though she didn't think it would do a darn thing.

Family court. Gah!

[Matt]

If one party is living in the US, and the other party is living in Asia, and just visiting the US once in awhile, counseling makes no sense, but probably can't do much harm either.

Go to the sessions, listen to what the other party has to say, listen to what the counselor has to say, smile politely, and leave.  As LnL says, be careful what you say - probably nothing to be gained and a waste of time and money, but there won't be many sessions anyway because your ex won't be there much.

[Jai Yen]

I agree about the counseling. I really don't think it will do much good. I'd like to think it will help identify the rules of engagement as we move forward- what's allowed and what's not allowed. That may be helpful. In the past, I've mostly been a calm zen monk while my stbx ranted and raged at me. Other times it was just tedious dealing with her. She would read my facial expression and tell me how insensitive I was.

Things are progressing little-by-little day-by-day. Today our Ls set up an appointment with our business attorney to work on a short-term to intermediate-term plan to save the business. This is a good thing. We both know it would be detrimental to us and the kids financially to simply shut down our business.

Also, this evening she is with our S16. She was told clearly by her L that they need to meet in public not in her hotel room and that discussion of the divorce was off limits. They're at dinner right now. My D17 will meet with her tomorrow. Hopefully, with the knowledge that she is not losing her relationship with her kids, her business, or her career she can keep it together and work with her L at getting things settled sooner than later. Even with her issues she has consistently over time been able to rally and make some very practical choices. Fingers crossed!

[ForeverDad]

Also, her L told my L stbx just had a situational issue which cased her to act out... .  Yeah right.

For her lawyer to share that it must have been a cataclysmic event.  Even without knowing the details, it is noteworthy.  Be aware that whatever happened can't be used against her, but it did give her lawyer a clear signal you weren't making it all up.

Interesting that she's meeting the children separately.  Was this her idea or the kids' idea?

I would have thought it would have been best for them to be together, at least at first.  Most people would try to fix things when confronted with consequences and looking bad.  It's much more intense for someone who's not reasonably normal.  I would expect she's trying to do several things at once.  She will want to put on a good face.  She will try to get them to recant some of the things they may have said or protections they had wanted.  That's what I imagine from a distance.

[Jai Yen]

FD, my D17 was too busy with school activities to meet her with my S16. The rules were made clear to her by her L - public places only and no discussion of the divorce proceedings or the lead up to the divorce. S16 said she was doing fine and they had a very nice evening together. She shared some of her plans with him and told him she's getting a big raise from her employer. She also told him she wants to cooperate with me. Interesting. She did tell S16 she wants to come to our house and cook for them. I told S16 that's not possible because of the court order - I can't even decided that - the judge has to.

My D17 will meet her today for several hours. I'm guessing that will go smoothly too. Again she wants to keep up appearances. She's very smart and she is obviously listening carefully to her L.

She said that after next week she plans to return to her home country if she can not stay at our home. She's scheduled to be back on the 25th. For the sake of moving the divorce process along and maintaining our business until the kids are in college in 2 more years I might entertain the idea. I have a place I can stay. It would be for only about 10 days. The kids would be gone most of the time at school and at after school activities. She can use our home office to work. She knows strictly that her behavior is being observed and that it will hurt her case if she gets out-of-control in front of the kids. Risky to be sure. I'll discuss with my L and my D17 first.

[Matt]

What would be accomplished by moving out of your house?

If she wants to cook, or to settle in for a little longer, there are places like Residence Inn that have kitchens.

Keep your goals clear!

[Jai Yen]

Matt, to allow her to "save face" to an extent and to spend time with the kids. If she can't cook for the kids (I know - it's a big deal to her) and be at "home" she plans to return to Japan next week. We have a meeting Tuesday to discuss ways to maintain the business. If we have more time we can likely move the process along faster. She's indicated that being only business partners with me is fine.

This is a risky overture which would could backfire on me. I put the order of protection in motion to avoid her ranting and raging and disrupting our peaceful household like she did in September. If I'm not here and the kids are here for short periods of time only and her L reminds her of the rules it could work out. I'll discuss with my L and clear it with my D17 - D17 may reject the idea and I will respect her wishes in this case.

Again this is a very unusual situation. My stbx is very high functioning and likes to keep up appearances.

[Matt]

She is manipulating you.

If she wants to stay longer, and see the kids, and work things out with you, she will do that.  She is smart, and she travels a lot, so she knows about Residence Inn and other places like that, with kitchens.  Or she'll just take them out to eat.

If she uses the cooking issue as an excuse to leave sooner, then she doesn't really care about the kids or working things out with you, she just wants a way to push you out of the house.

Boundaries!

[Jai Yen]

You're right. She is manipulating me for sure. I can't say that letting her move in with the kids for 10 days and me moving out will make a bit of difference in the outcome. I've bent to her will for so many years - old habits die hard I guess? Through an email from her sister she's trying to set up a face-to-face meeting with me to go over the business and asset division. We already have a meeting scheduled Tuesday with 3 attorneys.

I must maintain boundaries.

If she returns to Japan late next week she can meet her attorney via Skype and we can continue to move forward.

[Matt]

Old habits certainly died hard for me.  It took me a couple of years to get past some old bad habits and get the right distance.

[ForeverDad]

To clarify it from another aspect, her single cooking request was asking for two changes: (1) be with the children in a non-public setting and (2) be in the home.  The temp order blocked both.  In order to have either one, the order would have to be changed in a way that satisfied both lawyers or court.

Yes, she's only asking you to be "reasonable".  By and large we ARE reasonable people.  In cases like that we are at a disadvantage because we feel guilted to bend even though we were justified in an abundance of caution due to the history of past incidents.

"FOG" ... .  Fear, Obligation, Guilt.

Yes, it's awkward that there are limits on this visit.  But the fact that for now she is currently behaving within normal limits doesn't mean she would have behaved the same way if there were no limits such as those set by the protection order.  Right?  What this tells you is (1) she is able to put on a good public face when she has to and (2) your boundaries are ignored or not respected but the court's boundaries are because she has to obey the court.  Yes, you haven't been deeply respected or an authority figure for a long time.  Now she's facing the reality that only the court has authority, not her.

Most of us here have "been there, done that" when it comes to being guilted.  The ex is able to be so nice when wanting something.  We are pressured to reciprocate at those times.  That otherwise good quality we have is in effect used against us.

Likely you will agree to some of her requests in the future.  You have to be the one to decide when and how often you do.  Understand that each time you weaken a boundary it could give her incentive to ask for more and more.  More normal people can understand that exceptions are not weakness nor long term changes, however she may perceive exceptions differently and see than as openings to keep pushing for more and more.

I agree with Matt, if she could move to a hotel or motel with a kitchenette, she could do some cooking.  Probably too she is trying to salvage something of the family, though of course a week or two won't make up for past years, though she will try anyway.

This is also another reason we don't want to be guilted to say "yes" too soon.  Better to say "let me think about it" and not be pressured to give an immediate response.

[Matt]

To clarify it from another aspect, her single cooking request was asking for two changes: (1) be with the children in a non-public setting and (2) be in the home.  The temp order blocked both.  In order to have either one, the order would have to be changed in a way that satisfied both lawyers or court.

Good point.

If your lawyer let you do that, he wouldn't be doing his job.

From:  Jai Yen

To:  Mrs. Jai Yen

cc:  Jai Yen's attorney

I considered your request to be in the home for several days, and realized that the court order will not allow it.  As I understand it, your time with the kids is supposed to be in a public place.

[Jai Yen]

FD and Matt I'm in complete agreement. I told my L I'm not going to budge. My L understands completely. I said we have a number of things to clarify before I agree to those sorts of requests. The bottom line is I need the divorced finalized and everything agreed to and signed before I'm ready to "play nice." Stbx will likely return home later next week if she can not stay here with the kids. The main thing to articulate before she returns home is how to continue the business. My L and her L are trying to setting up a meeting with a couples counselor to help us learn how to communicate better. My L understands that it may not help much but it can't hurt and could help in other ways.

[livednlearned]

Glad you had this discussion about boundaries!

My ex did something similar during the initial weeks we separated. It's so powerful, that yearning to be "normal" and "reasonable." Like Matt and FD have said, "Boundaries!"

This isn't the time to be negotiating with yourself. Watch out for that impulse. It's common for nons to do it, so it if you feel it, come here and we'll talk you out of it 

[Jai Yen]

It's so powerful, that yearning to be "normal" and "reasonable."

You're right L-n-L it is powerful. She just emailed a long message to me assuring me that everything will be fine if she's allowed to stay at the house - no more high emotions. She's told me that so many times through the years. My biggest challenge now is remaining assertive by maintaining boundaries but reassuring her that I'm willing to work on our communication skills because that's best for our kids and for coming to an agreement regarding our assets and business.

We have a long couples counseling meeting scheduled for Monday. This was arranged by our attorneys. The next day we have a meeting scheduled with our Ls and our business L to try to come up with ways to maintain our mutual business. I'm actually hoping she returns to her homeland later next week. She has time to come back in March - again hopefully for a settlement meeting. I'm totally exhausted!

[livednlearned]

One thing I learned the hard way is that "reasonable" is "weak" to N/BPDxh. She is testing you. She will test you in couples counseling (sorry you have to do that, too, btw). Focus on your strategy, keep your goals in mind, and make a pact with yourself to not deviate from what you want.

I had to realize that when I felt "selfish," (what N/BPDxh always said about me) I was actually taking care of myself. It's healthy to feel that way. For the first year, I would feel selfish, and then changed the word to "healthy." I had to say it out loud, "I feel healthy." To get back to level, we have to overshoot our mark at first.

[Matt]

Remember, you don't have to respond to everything.

If she sends you a note, begging you to leave your home so she can stay there, you don't have to respond to that in any way.

[Jai Yen]

My L and I talked about the couples counseling. I need to play along to a certain extent and not make her out to be too N/BPD... .  That's a tall order. My L suggested that I reply to stbx that it is too painful for me right now to have you in the house and that the couples counseling both our attorneys set up is to work on ways to develop healthier communicate so after we're DIVORCED we can cooperate for the benefit of the kids. Also, we have a meeting to discuss the continuation of our business next week. Anyway, I told her after the meetings next week if she needs to return sooner that might be best. She has time to return again next month - by then we could schedule a settlement meeting.

Both my kids have spent time with her in the past 2 days. She's been a perfect angel. She's not obsessing about me or the divorce. Of course, her L warned her that bad behavior will not help your case - a good boundary.

If she sends you a note, begging you to leave your home so she can stay there, you don't have to respond to that in any way.

So true. I'll try to resist. Again, old habits die hard.

[Rose1]

Good to remember she is testing your boundaries to see how good they are. Blame the court - can't do it because it is against the court order - I can't visit your hotel either. Cooking for the kids in a private hotel room is also against the order - public place only. Too bad about saving face - don't forget that her behaviour caused this order to be in place - and for a good reason!

[GaGrl]

Good to remember she is testing your boundaries to see how good they are. Blame the court - can't do it because it is against the court order - I can't visit your hotel either. Cooking for the kids in a private hotel room is also against the order - public place only. Too bad about saving face - don't forget that her behaviour caused this order to be in place - and for a good reason!

Exactly. Most of the reason she is behaving herself is the order of protection.

[livednlearned]

My L and I talked about the couples counseling. I need to play along to a certain extent and not make her out to be too N/BPD... .  That's a tall order. My L suggested that I reply to stbx that it is too painful for me right now to have you in the house and that the couples counseling both our attorneys set up is to work on ways to develop healthier communicate so after we're DIVORCED we can cooperate for the benefit of the kids.

My L said the same thing. She thought it would look like I wasn't cooperative if I didn't go, so I went for the first initial session (we each went by ourselves once). N/BPDx must have hated it too, because he didn't press for it to go further. It was also $250/hr (!) for nothing.

If you do have to go, think of it like a deposition, or at the very least, as though you are cultivating an expert witness. It's possible that if your ex dysregulates, or throws a fit, the counselor could be called forward as a witness. If it ever gets to that... .