4th unofficial "divorce" this month ... 3kids

[WifeNeedsSupport]

ok, hello. so, i've been in a troubled marriage for years. we've been together for 13 and married for 8. it's getting exponentially worse.  there were signs early on but i failed to take them seriously. wishful thinking. or co-dependency? definitely naive. i was raised by a single mom of 4 who has a lot of heart, but very likely has BPD. us kids always knew something wasn't quite right, but now i think i get it. and since i was "trained" to be sensitive to her, i was a natural at handling my husband's issues from early on even w/o realizing what i was doing.

i've been in therapy for 6 months, weekly. it is my favorite part of the week. i can be heard by someone who actually understands the mess i'm in.  i'm pretty sure that my bestest of friends are somewhat tired of hearing my stories of roller-coastering emotions as i navigate this marriage. so far, the bottom line seems to be that i should keep going until i can't do it anymore.

i have good reason to try to make this work-- down deep, there's a man i love, and we have 3 young kids together.  problem is, this man is hiding behind a load of insecurity, anger, anxiety, depression, substance abuse (alcohol and pot), etc etc. from what i understand, he has traits of both BPD and narcissism(NPD). he would never feel himself in need of therapy, which makes this really difficult.  i have dr. jekl (sp?) and mr hyde, while most the rest of people who encounter him see a totally loveable human being. at times, we really seem to connect well and life is good. mostly when all things are going how he'd like them to. but other times he can be really vicious, verbally. .  at home with me, the gloves come off and it's total emotional, verbal abuse. the kids witness it and they hate it. i try to do my best to reconcile each incident with them, explaining things on the best terms and most healthy way i can. i'm trying to teach them to express feelings one way, and their father is out of control at the drop of a hat. weekends with him at home are hazardous. any given day could be land mine that i step on and i have to then go with him through manipulative, word twisting, blaming, tearing me down in every way he can, demoralizing, etc.  plus, even when not raging, on a daily basis, i'm constantly criticized. he just wants everything in his world to fit into his model. no tolerance for others. so now i'm becoming really sensitive myself to react and expect negativity when he talks (which i realize will be counter productive). and i fall into the trap of getting defensive and try to explain things with rational thought when he's raging, but that goes nowhere. those outbusts usually eat up half the day, and then he'll smoke a joint and sulk depressively and go to sleep. then it lingers for a few more days... .  we'll talk and talk and talk when he's calm and in the end, there's some resolution and we move on (for another few days).

really, it's unpleasant.

i used to be very afraid to "leave" him (i can't actually go anywhere, i need to stay at the house with the kids), but more and more i am feeling like it's something i will do at some point in the near future for self-preservation. i have asked him to leave on several occasions when he flatly said he didn't love me anymore and didn't care enough to try to fix anything. turns out, he'd come back and say just what needed to be said on that day to get me back and then forget it ever happened (but i don't forget!). so his words mean very little, as hurtful as they are. he recently told me that he would like to end things too, but then i gathered that he didn't really mean it either. at the moment, we're off. he called it off, and i let him know that i am "separating" from him, even though we'll still be married. i just need a breather.  at least... maybe more. these days recently when we're supposedly "through", i was surprised to find myself feeling liberated rather than fearful or sad.  ok, and a little sadness for the loss of some dream of "us" that i guess just isn't reality.

i think, especially with his narcissistic tendencies, as our responsibilities grew, he still expected me to give give give, and he just took took took. then on top of that growing burden, for him to turn around and bash how i do every little thing and go into rages where he denegrates me... .  too much!

it really bothers me that he is any influence at all on our kids sometimes. yes, he can be really sweet and loving. but then he'll call them names and basically bully them too. i've begged him to read a few parenting books, still waiting.  i had a book about anger thrown at me yesterday because i mentioned that i'm still waiting for him to make an appointment to go see a psychiatrist (on his own, he decided/agreed to try some ssri's for his anxiety). i'm really not sure if even having the kids in mind is worth staying with him. other problem is that i am trying to go back to school and having chaos at home makes this seem really impossible. not much support from him. i can go for free even, at the school where he teaches. but then, it would help to have him watch the kids sometimes, etc. and he basically would resist helping me (even in good times).

has anyone else gone through anything remotely the same? and by the way, i'm finding it really hard to draw the lines between NPD and BPD for my guy. maybe it doesn't matter much... .  

lastly, this is an ethical issue for me now that i have to figure out, because... .  i knew by now that he had lots of problems, but now realizing that these are adding up to REAL illness, that he's actually most likely suffering inside, i have this moral dilemma as to staying or leaving. it sounds aweful, i'm sure. but like, if it's a sickness, maybe i should have more compassion and try to just do what needs to be done to help him. i don't know if there's much i can do, to be honest, but i'd be willing to try. but then i also think, i need to live too! now recognizing his illness, i am having a harder time drawing the line. because if i can blame him for making a choice to put us through this, it's an obvious thing for me to end it. but if he is just as much a victim of himself as i am, and he doesn't really mean the horrible things that he says, should i look past it in search of the love (that i do believe is there, it just doesn't show half the time)?

and how do i know what's real that comes out of his mouth and what's not? he's very cunning... .  

i would love any feedback. please, bring it on!

thanks for reading this mega-post

[morningagain]

 

This is a good place for you to get support, advice, and information.  Your story is painful to read - my story is similar with its own differences.  My BPDw of 8 years and I are now separated, she is living with another man.  Years of descent into chaos, pain, confusion, accusations, cheating, emotional violence, physical violence from her, false accusations - I was arrested twice though the charges were dropped, financial devastation, i became severely depressed myself, just wall-to-wall destruction.  It was a long and painful descent - nothing happened at once - encroachment of my values and her disdain and disrespect built deftly over time.  I always thought more love from me, more patience, more understanding from me would fix it, fix her, fix us.  By the time I could not even help myself, I gathered enough strength to leave - fully intending to work it out.  She never came home that night, didn't know I left.

You have a very difficult decision to make, made impossibly difficult in such pain and turmoil, hopes, dreams and shattered dreams.  This affects us deeply.  We become ill - confused, unsure, depressed, angry, resentful, hopeful, grasping at small signs, holding on to past wonderful experiences.  For you to help this situation, you need to become healthy.  Healthier.  Read the lessons here, on the staying board and on the leaving board even.  We become emotionally attached to the disorder in the person we love, and ride their emotional, crazy-making, disorder-coaster.  We have to learn or relearn how to become emotionally independent.  How to hold and stand on our values no matter their demands, rages, pressure (F.O.G. - fear, obligation and guilt).  To face our fears - "How do I hold my values, to not trample my own values, when if I do so they will... .  rage?  cheat?  hurt themselves?  hurt me?  confuse me and tell me why I am so wrong?  they need me to do this because they are too weak, or too ill, or so-and-so is hurting them - better to save them or help them than hold my values because in-this-context their needs are greater thus my values are faulty?"

Find out about the disorder.  Who can you really change?  Just you.  Tough spot to be in, but if you want to stay in the relationship  -  you have to be able to stop the bleeding - start there - look to the lessons on the right.



Michael

[hithere]

I don't get the 4th divorce part?

I guess my best advice would be to make sure not to have any more kids with him because it will likely trap you for longer.  It sounds like you have a poor quality of life overall and your kids are exposed to his negative actions quite often?

If he has BPD (w/NPD traits) it is a sickness but for me, even though I finally knew why my ex was acting a certain way it still hurt the same, that is why I left.  We had no kids together so the decision was probably much easier.

What does your therapist recommend?

[gina louise]

 wife who needs support

I can relate to your whole post-your H's treatment of you. your life was mine, except for the kids. that must make it all the more difficult.

I stayed married less than 2 years... .  it takes a thick skin and a lot patience to keep trying.

you have a lot of support on here and a lot of company. stay strong.

GL

[WifeNeedsSupport]

thank you to those who posted for your support!

i have felt really isolated by the whole experience, especially as it's gotten worse.  i know lots of other couples with issues to work out, but none on the level of mine... .  so i just don't say much to anyone but a few trusted friends and my therapist.  all helpful, but i'm so hungry for connection to a big support group of people who have been down this road before... .  hence the long posts 

i make an effort to maintain friendships that i have made with girlfriends, but any other couples that want to do the double date kind of thing i basically can't be with b/c they wouldn't understand that my husband doesn't do social events. or if he does, it is a disaster.

i do have some great friends though, thank god, but the really isolating part is that these manipulations that go on from my husband really call into question so much about what is real and what isn't and i'm constantly feeling misunderstood... .  in a really dramatic way! i try to stay cool with him, walking on eggshells- yes, and going the extra mile to keep things happy, but i'm only criticized for any possible misstep(you know, because i'm a human being), and then inevitably i'm slammed with the rage and accusations of criminality. it distorts reality.

now reading through other stories online, including posts through this website, it's amazing to me how much lines up about BPD (w/NPD traits) for my husband and for my experience.  it's a big awakening! my therapist has been mentioning this for some time after hearing my accounts of what goes on, but hasn't been too focused on diagnosing my H (esp it would be pointless since he doesn't come to the appts).  he said that people don't fit into boxes either, but has explained some of the features of both of these disorders to me and has outlined some of the limitations that exist for me in dealing with someone of this nature. but to read about the two disorders online in detail and to read the stories of others has been really incredible. #1, i'm not alone! #2, i feel a greater sense of compassion for my H and his struggles (which i think i really resented him for up until now... .  well i still sort of do- not as much), and #3, with how severe a case he is of both BPD and NPD, i am really doubtful that he will ever improve. i guess i previously believed that this was just some habituated pattern he had learned from his painfully abusive childhood. that totally plays into it, but i thought that he could make a conscious choice to just get help and be different. so i'm especially torn now. i want to love him and take care of him, and i also want to cut my losses and run!

my therapist has said the bit about "stay until you can't stay any longer." it was advice given to him by some world-renowned psychiatrist for his own relationship years back w/ a BPD wife. he has major empathy b/c he's been in my shoes. he understands the roller coaster. he knows the frustration and disappointment.  he also mentioned that the most realistic thing i could do really to live with it, is to lower my expectations down to nearly nothing and accept it. i called him yesterday after learning about stuff online and i was like "i'm in shock. this is what you've known and been trying to tell me this whole time!" i didn't realize how deep rooted my H's problems really were. or make the connection between his low self-esteem and the fact that he insults me, and why he keeps rescuing the relationship just after sabotaging it himself.  all the sudden, so many different little things i've known came together in one way.

i asked him about dbt, which he said he is not impressed with, but that it's better than nothing... any input there, my wise new online friends?

he has advised me several times that sticking it out as long as possible and trying to fix stuff would accomplish 2 things--open a possibility of seeing if my husband can bring himself to start complying with my minimum requirements for our relationship (which he encouraged me to focus on a bit), and if that fails, at least i can someday walk away knowing that i've tried everything, clear conscience.  i don't know that i'm totally at that stage yet, especially since now i only starting to understand the underpinnings of who i'm dealing with... .  but, i am rapidly losing patience and getting the point where i just can't take it any more and i don't care about trying to fix it.  but i don't want a heavy conscience later.  here's where the kids come in and really complicates everything. 

i really have to say, being totally honest, that i would have left him by now if it weren't for the kiddies. and while, in rough times, i think staying with a toxic person in the house is worse for them, i also see that his other persona when he's not flipped out is really sweet with them and they do love him and are attached to him.  and he loves them too. i even really love that side of him.  it's hard.

and i gave up a career path to have kids first, so now i'm feeling a bit like i would have survival problems to go it alone. i don't really know how the whole child support/alimony thing would turn out, nor do i have any savings to make it until then. but i do think that he would support me anyways, just bc of the kids. not the same security as if i had an income of my own. i mentioned before, i'm working on a plan of going back to school... would be much easier if i had his support. but, then again, he's not exactly full of support. it might even be easier without him to go back to school-- at least he wouldn't stand in my way. (but i would lose the free tuition perk if we're actually divorced). oh well, life.  also, i don't know how i'd feel about leaving our kids with him so much if we split up. i'd partly want it to be really fair and for them to be with him and know him, but i'd also really wonder if he's treating them as they deserve to be treated (he gets into bully mode with them when his patience is low- more often than most parents, i think).

btw, sorry for writing so much before answering this question-- the "4th 'divorce'" relates to the 4th time in the last few weeks that we have had a declaration of "it's over, let's get a divorce" and then i spent a day or a few days under the impression that this would be the new reality... [the moments when i felt relief rather than just sadness to my surprise]... .  only for him to scrape it back up off the ground and say "you are right, i'll go to couples therapy" or "i'm sorry, i'm just under such stress from work, let's try again" or whatever.  and i then feel obligated to keep trying.  he won't let it die. he will probably never go to therapy btw (he later altered that statement to say, he'll start working on himself first with some ssri's, no talk therapy, and [vaguely] "later" we can think about couples therapy... .  and he's had the plan to treat the anxiety with meds for 6months and no dice).

this time, after he said "f*** this, it's over!" he wrote me a note last night that states he cares about me and is committed to working on our marriage and that i shouldn't give up on him. sounds great, right? i almost didn't even really care about what he wrote on that note, because i am starting to see that he's just prolonging this and i'm losing faith in any successful outcome. i'm usually such an optimist, which is probably what has gotten me this far. oh, i could tell devastating stories about situations he's put me though... .  but i just forgive, forget, look forward and move on. it's like i wait to hear certain words, and each time we hit rock bottom, he'll come out and say just what i want to hear to keep on going. but look, this is the catch-- if he doesn't mean all the insults and derogation he throws my way, then what's to say that he means the pick-me-ups either of "i'm so committed, i will change, i want to fix this" talk? it's all part of his manipulation of me.  i want to believe that the loving talk is the real him, but i'm really starting to wonder if he's at all capable even of loving me for me and not for the purpose i serve him... .  really loving me? hearing his constant criticism makes me feel like he doesn't like much about me in general (NPD, builds himself up this way) plus i've heard him say time and again in past months what a "lemon" i am, and what regret he has about being with me... as for the purpose i serve him-- when i backtrack my thoughts over the years, i've often thought he would've been much happier as a bachelor, that he would be happy on a deserted island, that he probably only wants to have a wife and kids to please his family (overseas, very family-oriented culture). he had a first wife who ran away from him, and he always made her out to be the devil, but now accuses me of the same things he said about her. commonality= him! he admits that he sees divorce as failure and told me once that he'd rather cut his arm off than divorce me. i was partly impressed with his loyalty, partly comforted by it, and partly thinking "that's crazy! so maybe this is just a pride issue for you! you'd rather be miserable than 'fail'!"

so after he wrote this little note to me, i'm still in some bizzarro world of like "how do i possibly understand how he can hate me one minute and love me the next?" and i'm trying to mesh the two and i'm not just instantly over the insults, and as usual, he acted like "ok, everything is fine now, we'll talk when i have time and less work... sometime later. let's act as though nothing ever happened!" gave me a kiss goodbye before leaving this morning. caught me off guard with that. he noticed that i kept my distance from him this evening and asked if i'm mad at him now, but i said "no, it's fine. we'll talk when you can. but i'm still needing some breathing space and some emotional distance for a little while, a few days. it would have been that way whether or not you wanted to talk at all".  i am proud for at least giving myself a few days to think this all through without having to put my feelings aside to act ok about it all and, without escalating anything(heck, he wants to hold it off anyways and i made it like it's not b/c of him or his note), i'm letting him know that maybe i'm not just going to jump back so easily this time. i'm still having my mindset from before the note... .  i really feel like an in-home separation of sorts is just the ticket for now. i am not totally done trying, but i just can't really try at the moment. don't want to stay or leave. or i guess, i want to do both. physical proximity, almost like we're still together, but hopefully more like the way roommates treat each other, with civility.  and the kids aren't traumatized just yet and we don't have to parcel them out.  i'm not thrilled about the idea of throwing them into all that business. and while we've mostly always maintained a great sex life (odd to admit along with all the rest... .  definitely says something about some issues i still need to explore!), i am totally willing to forgo that when we're on the outs or permanently if it spares me from his anger.  i am not in the mood when i'm feeling used. no thanks.

so, these seem to be the only differences... .  no sex. no talking unless it's for info exchange, no fights hopefully. no business as usual trying to be a married couple and having expectations of each other. but still not out of my life yet (good and bad, baby steps), nor the kids'. i can live with that for now.

any insights from other sig others or ex-sig others? i'd love all feedback right now, but especially-- has anyone tried anything really useful in terms of turning this verbal/emotional abuse type thing around to make a relationship even possible once it's gotten to be this way? also interested in knowing how any separations went... .  or did the real threat of losing you get the SO with BPD and/or NPD motivated to really try any therapy? how was it for people's divorces and having to transfer kids with the ex who isn't very mentally healthy?  or did anyone use that in court to keep the kids? i have basically no info on what to expect post-future-divorce with this scenario... .  other than my belief that he would fight me tooth and nail for custody... .  even though he is not the world's most hands on dad now.