Lying

[tog]

I'm feeling very done with SS13. He continues to tell his uN/BPDmother whatever she wants to hear... .  or is it the truth? Is what he tells her truth, or us the truth? What he tells the therapist or what he tells the GAL?

He tells her he didn't want to tell his father what his mid-term score (best in the class) was because he was so critical. He tells us he wanted to wait and tell him himself. He tells the therapist (who is in collusion with BPDmom) that he wants to live with her; he tells the GAL(who is neutral) that he wants 50/50.

He tells SO he likes being with us, he tells his mother he wants to be with her every day in the summer. She uses this as a tool and a weapon.

I know this is a confused and damaged kid, but I'm tired of the havoc he wreaks with this behavior. He knows better. He lies as easily as he changes his underwear, maybe easier because he'd go 6 days without doing that, and never without lying.

I'm at the point where I'm really tired of my life being about SS and his mother.  Obviously it's my SO's decision what he does, but I'd support him giving her majority time and we will see him when he wants to come over. I've had enough. I need to move on and this will never happen. 

[Matt]

Wow, this is a really tough one, and I have to admit, I haven't had to deal with something like this, so I can only think, "Here's what I would do" - not sure if it's right or not... .  

I have had to deal with patterns of behavior from kids at various ages - my youngest is 14 - stuff that needs to change, and how to get that to change, without going to war with the child.  For example, when he was younger - we separated when he was 8 - S14 threw fits, pretty often and pretty bad.  I'm sure he was stressed - the separation and divorce, and his mom's BPDish behaviors, and his big brother's problems (addiction and prison) - lots for a kid to process.

So there's one side of it that's "Why is he acting like this?", and that's probably where counseling for him comes in.  I took both my younger kids (now 14 and 16) to a counselor for a few years, not to "solve" any "problem", but to help them have support and learn tools, which included tools for how to manage his anger for S14.

The other side of it is, "How do I deal with the behaviors?".  What I found worked with S14 was a combination of consequences and what I think of as "staying with him".  What I mean by that is, when he was acting out - sometimes he broke things, or yelled, or even hit someone - there had to be consequences for those behaviors, like taking away his cell phone or iPod for a day, or no TV for a week - usually taking away something he valued.

And at the same time, I think it helped to "stay with him" - literally stay, unless he stomped off to his room or if I sent him there, and make sure he saw me as not rejecting him, and then when he calmed down, accepting him back.  One time I remember, after a massive fit, he went to his room for a while, and then came where I was, and sat right by me and put his head on my shoulder.  Not a word of "I'm sorry Dad", just that nonverbal clue that he was over it and wanted to be accepted again.  And I try very hard to make it clear that he's not an outcast, once the fit is over, there is a price to pay, but that's that - no lingering tension or silent treatment.

So I'm wondering if this might apply for your SS13, in some way.  :)o you think there is a way to isolate the specific behavior - make sure you're being fair in saying that he's lying - and providing appropriate consequences each time it happens?  And at the same time, make sure that you're giving that clear feedback to the behavior, but not outcasting the person - still letting him know, very consistently, that you care about him and are committed to helping him through this?

And is counseling an option - maybe mostly for SS13, but maybe also for you, him and his father all together, to help you all work through this?

I understand it's difficult and trying.  I'm just hoping you won't give up, because SS13 clearly needs help, and I don't think it's reasonable to assume that he will get it from his mom.

[DreamGirl]

How frustrating.

Didn't you get a therapist for your SS and his dad? (not the one mom is using)

[tog]

That therapist is doing co-parent counseling with them and BPDmom is now blocking SS13 from meeting with her alone (she now has decision making on medical stuff) because he tells her more of what we think is the truth.

Honestly, it just feels to me like time to let go of this battle and give her full custody or at least majority time, but that's up to SO as far as that goes officially-so I just have to disengage and let him decide how to handle it. We've talked to him umpteen times about how this affects everything and he does it anyway. He can go from "I love you" to his Dad on Tuesday to "I'm scared to death of him" to the therapist on Wednesday.

Since SS apparently told his mother he wants to spend every day in the summer with her (he told us "I didn't mean it that way!" I think that's what SO should allow to happen. Soon enough the court will grant him what he wants anyway.

Time to drop the rope, in my opinion. She's just too determined and too powerful. I'm burned out and tired of trying to help a kid who doesn't seem to want anything other than to please his mother.

[DreamGirl]

It sucks being the stepmom sometimes - it is a very powerless place to be. (Like my whole lending money to mom debacle - that went against every one of my last instincts as a parent)

My 13 year old stepdaughter has also spoken those very words - "I'm afraid of my dad".

In therapy she said it. (You can imagine the smile that splashed across mom's face)

Which when discussed further was more "I'm afraid of my dad... .  being disappointed in me".

Kids that age aren't always the best at verbalizing this stuff.

It's so hard when they are so enmeshed with the disordered parent - it hinders him from forming his own "sense of self". It becomes a practice in doing what is expected of him.

I also know about wanting to drop the rope. (I almost walked out on my marriage in the second round of court)

I did drop the rope. I wasn't equipped to deal with it - especially with such little power over it.

It just meant I left my husband to deal with it - and he did deal with it. Really well, actually.

~DG

[Matt]

I think "drop the rope" - referring, I presume, to this story www.thecruxmovie.com/pdf/TheBridgeShortStory.pdf - I think it's a good way to talk about this stuff.

But I haven't thought about applying it to someone so young.  When I got to that point with my older son - he was struggling with drugs - he was in his 20s, and "dropping the rope" wasn't what I wanted to do, and ultimately it wasn't what I did, but it sure did seem like a reasonable option, especially when I was so worn down I didn't think I could hold that rope any longer anyway.

With a 13-year-old, I certainly don't think it's too late for things to get better, and I think he will need adult help for the next few years at least.

Maybe... .  this is hard to know... .  but maybe the way you feel about this is more about his mom than it is about SS13.

What I mean by that is, if Mom wasn't in the picture, and SS13 had these problems - lying and the other problems in his behavior and his thinking - I think it would be easier to see that he's a child who is struggling, and to believe that you and your SO, working together, with the right professional help, could help him through this.

But with Mom in the picture - though she is also struggling and needs help, just like SS13 - but she's an adult, and is actively making things worse - it's not as easy to see her sympathetically.  And our attention gets distracted toward whoever is most active - we watch the actor not the scenery.  And SS is kind of a prop in Mom's play... .  

[tog]

Sure. If he didn't have a Borderline mother and we could actually effectively intervene, I would do so; however, she is not only blocking us from any real therapy, she is actually using a therapist who believes and reinforces him for lying. This therapist then writes letters to the court suggesting he should live full-time with the woman who is reinforcing his behavior and modeling lying.

We have asked for a new therapist, repeatedly. This has been denied, repeatedly.

No one cares. We have spent 30K because of his lies and it will not stop until she gets what he wants. This is not my child, and really, not my problem.

I will have to let SO deal with this however he sees fit. I need to accept the futility of the situation and get on with my life, I don't see other options at this point. She has effectively taken control of every avenue for change.

[NorthernGirl]

Tog -- I can definitely relate to you on this one.    Sorry you are having to go through this.

I first dealt with this with SS20 who has addiction issues which resulted in him constantly lying to get alcohol and drugs. He was not a good liar at first but got better at it. Even though SS20 has sort of stopped drinking (he says he is cured and never really was an addict), I still don't trust what he says automatically. I start from a place of questioning if it feels as though he is trying to get something from me.

The lying began in the last year with SS18, who has special needs. DH and his ex (UBPD) were trying to determine guardianship for SS18. His Mom began and all out offense on SS18 -- lying to him about what was going on, telling him I was behind DH going for sole guardianship, getting SS18 to sign documents saying he didn't want DH as his guardian, and on and on.

At the same time, it has seemed like every day SS18 was here (we have 50/50) he would lie about something -- big and small. So DH raised this with SS18's T. When DH joined the session at the end, SS18 said he was going to tell his mom that he wanted her to stop saying all the negative things about DH and me, and that he only wanted to hear once they had made a decision about guardianship.

SS18 came home and passed the same message on to me. Then he went downstairs to watch TV. I was heading down with a load of laundry when I heard SS18 say in a gleeful voice "I was eavesdropping on Dad talking with his lawyer this morning and I will tell you all about it."

Once he'd hung up, SS18 came bouncing up the stairs with a big smile on his face. I told him he better head back down and figure out how he was going to tell DH what he'd done. When DH arrived, SS18 told his Dad he had listened in to "a couple minutes" of the conversation with the lawyer. DH asked why he had done that and he said "because I was worried." I told SS18 to tell the whole story and he finally said "and I kinda told Mom." His whole discussion with DH was spent trying to downplay what he had done. In the end SS18 was more upset with the consequence he was given than with being caught.

It seems to have become almost a habit for SS18 to eavesdrop and lie. He can be very sneaky and manipulative. He works hard at telling people what he thinks they want to hear.

I can see how hard it must be on SS18 to try to figure things out, especially when he has learned that his Mom is likely not telling him the truth about some things but he asks "why would Mom lie?" Why indeed.  And he has learned that he can avoid being yelled at by his Mom if he lies about something and gets away with it. Knowing why he is doing it helps me a little -- but at the end of the day I struggle with all the lies.

What we have tried to teach him is that the consequences start ramping up if he lies. If he's done something bad and then lies about it, the consequences are worse than just doing something bad. He is started to get it because DH has followed through (not an easy thing for DH). DH feels very guilty about all that SS18 goes through and will err on the side of believing SS18. He doesn't like when I point out that SS18 has lied or is being sneaky about something but I have decided that it isn't good for DH to just avoid it because SS18 knows he can get away with lying at our house.

It makes me very sad. SS18 is naive and usually wants to please people. I recognize that when he was eavesdropping he would have gotten praise from his Mom, and he doesn't get that much. He will do a chore and then come begging for approval from me. He wants desperately to be recognized and loved. His Mom took him to be baptized a few years ago (she was on a religious phase that has since died away) and he continues to believe in God and so we ask him what God would want him to do and he says "tell the truth." All of these things help a little.

I have no magic answer of how you can deal with it in your situation. In my case, if DH hadn't started being more involved, spoken to SS18's T or given out some consequences, I'm not sure what I would have done. Things are a little better but we certainly haven't resolved this one yet.

Hang in there. 

[sanemom]

Tog,

I can totally empathize where you are coming from.  I wish I had answers other than "keep calling him on it" and keep telling him how honesty is the best policy.  Sometimes at dinner we do things where we talk about "moral issues" involving friends.  Like when "Joey and Janie are breaking up, do you tell your friends?" or talk about how secret-keeping hurts relationships between friends.  We do this hoping they will generalize it to their parents. 

I would keep pointing out factually "You told us this while you told X that--which is it?  We are fine with whatever the truth is, we just want the truth."  Maybe even create a situation where you tell SS one thing and DH something totally different and let him sit there and wonder... .  

We keep trying to look at the big picture.  Yes, DSD lies a lot now... .  in 5-10 years, she is probably going to feel a tremendous guilt once she realizes how she has been hurting her dad.  DH has mentioned to the boys recently that all the secrets and lies that were going on before were very hurtful to him--you could tell that was the first time they had realized that what they did could have been hurtful.  They just didn't know... .  riding the rollercoaster with BPD mom and not seeing anything else but the hills and twists and turns; all they can do is to hold on tight.

[mamachelle]

I think "drop the rope" - referring, I presume, to this story www.thecruxmovie.com/pdf/TheBridgeShortStory.pdf - I think it's a good way to talk about this stuff.

I just read this. Really interesting.

I would say at 30k into it, it's got to be completely frustrating.

Being a stepmom is hard enough.

My oldest SS15 has autistic traits and b/w thinking and will not lie.

SS10 lies all the time and constantly, but also has the b/w thinking going on. He is enmeshed with BPD mom but she lives across the country and gave up a lot during the divorce for about $3k and 18 months of alimony. She was in over her head with 3 boys and she has never been able to handle the stress of parenting very well. She also could not afford a prolonged battle like this.

SS8 never bonded at all with mom. He is the brightest and also the most prone to bad boy behavior. Were the birth order reversed... .  lord help us.

Anyway, I don't have answers but I sense SS13 is just tired of it all.

Does he post on Tumblr or Facebook. Is there any place where you can see him as himself.

He really needs his own therapist. This therapist sounds like a malpractice case waiting to happen.

Yeah, I would drop the rope, tie it to a telephone pole and just watch what happens.

[tog]

The therapist irks me to no end. I hate picturing him and his mother sitting there trashing my SO and her eating it all up, she's so short-sighted and unethical. Even the co-parent counselor feels the individual therapist has been unethical! Crazy stuff. Hard to believe a so-called professional could get so hooked and get it so wrong. She's more BPDmom's therapist than SS's.

My SO told SS again how much it hurts him that he lies to the therapist about him. SS apologized and said he would be more honest with her.  He claims not to know how he feels which is BS, IMO. He wants to please his mother and I think he needs to experience the consequences of these choices. I pointed out to him that by telling everyone something different, he makes the conflict he claims to hate that much worse.

I've just lost energy for it. I need to get on with life.

[david]

The lying needs to be addressed. I'm not sure how you can do this. Sounds like SS is just saying whatever he thinks his audience wants to hear and is not expressing his true beliefs/feelings/etc. to minimize conflict and keep the peace at that point in time. I am not sure how to break that cycle.

Not sure if this will work but record things ss is saying and go to the T with the info without ss and show what is going on and the concerns. Can the coparent counselor help ?

[Matt]

He claims not to know how he feels which is BS, IMO.

It probably isn't BS.

Many kids struggle to identify their feelings, and grown men (including me!) often find it difficult.  Something as simple as answering, "What are you feeling right now?" is not easy for many of us.

(Some scientists have said that the speech center of the brain is connected very well to the part of the brain that feels emotions in women, but in men there is much less connection between those two areas - literally less tissue!  Which may explain this phenomenon.)

It can be overcome, but it is likely to take a lot of time and patience.  The therapist should be focusing on that but from what you've said I doubt that she is doing it.

I think your SO is right to tell SS that it hurts him when SS says something negative about him.  I think 13 is also old enough to understand some of what is going on between the parents;  those issues shouldn't be SS's problem, but unfortunately they are.

Did you say that SS's therapist won't meet with SO or let him participate in the therapy?  I think that should be a big focus.  There is no reason one parent should get to trash the other unchallenged - that's not what therapy is.

Is there a professional association in your state, which might intervene and hold the therapist accountable for unethical behavior?

[tog]

SO chooses not to meet with the therapist at this point because she's made up her mind, obviously. He's tried to develop a relationship with her in the past but to him it just feels like torture at this point. We've looked into whether she can be held accountable, but unfortunately, nothing she does really falls into clear ethical violations. From her perspective, she is going with what SS tells her, which is that his father is mean and he's terrified of him. She hasn't refused to see SO, she's just provided crappy care and doesn't see the importance of both of his parents being involved fairly.

Co-parent counselor is good and he is more honest with her, but BPDmom is blocking him from meeting alone with her (she now has medical decision-making). This can probably be addressed at the next court date.

I said the wrong thing... .  I meant to say he claims not to know what he wants in terms of schedules, not what he feels. My SO often doesn't know what he feels! If we ask SS what he wants as far as parenting time he claims not to know (but will later say 50/50).

So frustrating. For me, the hard part is the blatant lies to the therapist and others about conditions in our home and his relatioship with SO.

[Matt]

So if he chooses to, SO could attend every therapy session along with SS?

And if he chooses to, SO could meet with the T alone, and/or with Mom but not SS?

It may be hard, but probably the right thing to do, for SO - maybe with some coaching from you and/or someone else who is a good communicator - to re-establish a relationship with the T.

Here's a guess - could be way off - I'll just guess at what may have happened... .  

In my profession, I work with a lot of people, and I have good respect for most of them - their integrity and competence.  But there are a few who I have a low opinion of.  I take care to not say that, unless they report to me, and even then only one-on-one, not in front of others, and in respectful, positive ways;  "Here is a key issue where I see a need for improvement" not "You suck."

But what I've found, over the years, is that some of these people are very perceptive.  Their ability to see through me is greater than my ability to treat them like I treat everybody else.  So even when I think I'm not giving out any "You suck" vibes, they're getting that message from me somehow.  Those who I think aren't very good at their jobs, often figure out that I think that, even if I take care not to say it.

I think this is probably true of many men, and I think many women are very good at picking up vibes, and know what others think of them, even when we don't say it.

So... .  my guess is, your SO tried to work with the T, on a professional basis, and the T picked up negative vibes from him - rightly or wrongly - and turned against him.  That won't be easy to fix, especially now that your SO's view of the T (and yours too) have become very fixed, based on all that has happened.

Still, it's probably best that he try again - forget whatever was said or perceived in the past, and get back in the game, and pretend that he's only focused on SS, and not at all negative toward T.  And be frank with her, and also listen carefully to what she says, and look for opportunities to challenge her perceptions, when it's clear they are based on unfair things Mom has told her.

I can understand walking away from a difficult situation with someone who isn't susceptible to my charms - I've done it many times.  But in this case, the hard road may be the right road.

[DreamGirl]

****crossed with Matt

Ugh, your story always makes me so sad for your SS.

tog, his mom his partaking in stunting his cognitive development.

From this link: www.lpch.org/DiseaseHealthInfo/HealthLibrary/adolescent/cogdev.html

What encourages healthy cognitive development during adolescence?

The following suggestions will help to encourage positive and healthy cognitive development in the adolescent:

•Include adolescents in discussions about a variety of topics, issues, and current events.

•Encourage adolescents to share ideas and thoughts with you.

•Encourage adolescents to think independently and develop their own ideas.

•Assist adolescents in setting their own goals.

•Stimulate adolescents to think about possibilities of the future.

•Compliment and praise adolescents for well thought out decisions.

•Assist adolescents in re-evaluating poorly made decisions for themselves.

I don't see his mom encouraging any of that. Actually, she seems to be doing the opposite.

He doesn't really know which way is up.

It's a common behavior in a BPDparent - her feelings are what are fact for everyone. (i.e a child says "I'm cold" and the parent says "No you're not, it's not cold out here."

It's hard to counteract that when she has such a strong presence. Like Matt said, it usually takes time, patience, and a lot of questions to help him start to develop a sense of self (separate from his mama).

Personally, I'd be a nuisance to the current therapist. "OK, my son is "terrified" of me. Let's work on that."

I also get that your SO is over it.

I also don't get what SPECIFICALLY he is so terrified of.

~DreamGirl

[tog]

She is definitely stunting his growth and seems to be getting increasingly worried about his growing independence. After putting him in a private school to increase his social skills, she now wants him dropped off and picked up EXACTLY on school hours-no socializing before or after school. She has tried to get SO to do this as well on several occasions for several reasons. SO will not, he allows him to stay and socialize.

I also think he should go see the therapist. He did at first, every other time, until it became clear that she bought BPDmom's story (which was also SS's), hook, line and sinker and then he stopped. At this point he is being avoidant and won't do it and (understandably) doesn't want the co-pay either.

And what is he terrified of? Never been specified. He "lives in fear of his father". He is "caught in the middle of his father's anger at his mother". He "feels the court system has let him down and wants to live with his mother." Any of that sound like it came from a 13-year-old? NOPE.

SS could change this in a minute if he had the courage to tell the therapist he's been lying all along or even to ask for a new therapist, but he seems to live the Mommy and Son Lie to The Clueless Therapist hour, for some reason

[Matt]

I also get that your SO is over it.

Yeah, but unfortunately (or maybe fortunately!) we fathers don't get to be over it.

I can understand being fed up with both Mom and the therapist.  Been there.

But we don't get to give up on a child, at least not at 13.  We don't get to say "I can't figure this out."  We don't get to say "It's too hard."

We do get to forgive ourselves when we fall short, and we get to take care of ourselves - which for me has meant counseling for myself - when the stress is hard to cope with.  We get to have alone time to re-charge our batteries, and we get to vent our frustrations to other adults who can support us.

I'm sorry if I sound moralistic, but as a father of 4, one of whom has been through heck and back, for many years, I guess I think I have the right to say this:  A father just doesn't get to give up on his child at 13.  Because the child needs him (and you too).

Maybe if you can't find it in yourself to deal with Mom, or with the T, you can at least help your SO to step up and do what SS needs him to do, not because it's fair that you and SO have to bear this burden, while Mom and T make it worse, but because your SS just flat out needs you guys to help him through this, and the stakes are so high... .  

[DreamGirl]

I also think he should go see the therapist. He did at first, every other time, until it became clear that she bought BPDmom's story (which was also SS's), hook, line and sinker and then he stopped. At this point he is being avoidant and won't do it and (understandably) doesn't want the co-pay either.

And what is he terrified of? Never been specified. He "lives in fear of his father". He is "caught in the middle of his father's anger at his mother". He "feels the court system has let him down and wants to live with his mother." Any of that sound like it came from a 13-year-old? NOPE.

Just a piece of information:

My oldest son's biological father wouldn't go to my son's therapist either. She bought my story too (not that I was selling anything) and could only base her opinion based on my side of the story.

His refusal to participate affected him a lot in the custody case.

I just don't know that it's very wise to not partake in it?

 

DG

[tog]

He's not giving up on SS, he's giving up on the therapist. Today, and maybe this will change, I'm in danger of giving up on the kid, but I won't block SO from doing what he wants to do in any way.

He'd participate if he felt included... .  this therapist has NEVER reached out to him or tried to help him change his relationship with SS. I think he should too... .  but it's up to him.

[Matt]

Giving up on the therapist may, in effect, mean giving up on the kid.

Maybe he can wear the therapist down.  Keep participating, pretending to believe in her integrity and balance, and challenging unfair stuff from Mom.  Show SS that he won't give up and he won't be bullied or lied about.

Does SO have any sports heroes, or historical heroes?  (Mine are Ozzie Smith and Churchill!)  If I ever gave up on my SS (or on whatever is needed to help him), I think my other kids would tell me, "Would Ozzie Smith give up?  Would Winston Churchill give up?  Would Frodo give up?".

But I do understand that you can only do so much to support and encourage your SO... .  

[DreamGirl]

Frodo... .  

That was funny.  


I've actually had times where I enjoyed proving the girls' Mama's assessment of me wrong to other people. With the right attitude, it's kinda fun to show everyone that I'm not really a mean, nasty, angry person like she says that I am.  

Even if the therapist is unethical and worthless, she still has eyes and ears (and power). What does the attorney advise your SO do? Is he the one who is saying that not participating is better then participating (and getting slammed)?

I'd prove to her that he is a good dad - who is willing to do whatever it takes... .  

Again, like Matt said, you can only do so much.  I do know, for me, my husband is always open to reason and logic. I can certainly put a bug in his ear when I think he might need to start acting more logically - and not so emotionally.

~DreamGirl

[mamachelle]

Hey yeah

I agree with above posts not to give up on your SS.

Stepping back is ok though.

BPDMom seems to be the only one gaining here. This T thing really really needs to be dealt with.

I once heard that a therapist with higher credentials can look better in court. Is it possible this therapist could be trumped somehow? is she a psychologist, social worker, counselor?

Psychiatrist perhaps or a someone that is dealing with SS lying as a behavior and part of a bigger family dynamic here?

It's also not clear to me what exactly BPDMom gains in this game collaterally--- is it more money? is it a way to keep your SO involved endlessly?

With my H-- he went in swiftly, filed, got the residential parent and freaked out that he was now to be the super Dad but somehow managed. (marrying me-- super mom helped  )

There was no way in the world he was going to let her get 3 kids child support and be residential parent.

Your case is different, but even with the 50/50 parenting in the agreement, BPDmom could never sustain and never come through.

[tog]

She wants sole custody and having this therapist write letters to that effect (even though it hasn't worked) is central to her plan. She is a social worker. They haven't made any changes despite her letters, probably because SS always tells the GAL he wants 50/50.

She also wants to punish SO, obstruct, and have total control over SS as a tool to control SO. She's got some control issues.   

The problem with participating, too, is that 100% guarantee, BPDmom will also show up for every session and insist on transporting SS (now especially that she got medical decision making). She has done this Every.Single.Time SO has made an appointment with the GAL. With the therapist, she will simply not allow anything else. Could this be addressed in court? Yes, probably. Is it worth it? Don't know.

He'd probably go if I cajoled and reasoned but meh, I don't care anymore either. I think SS will have to figure this one out on his own.