Advice needed on how to counter his statement

[mitti]

Hi,

I need some urgent advice. I am writing from my phone so sorry in advance for possible incoherence. My uBPDbf and I have been going through some really difficult times and I have felt undecided for a while as to what I want. He has been refusing to talk for a while, https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=193255.0;all and I decided I can't wait any longer but was going to send him a message asking to meet up on Friday or go our separate ways.

In the car this morning I tried to phone him again fully expecting him not to pick up, which he didn't but he called me strait back. I told him that I have wanted to ask him whether he wants to break up or not. He's not sure. He says he is feelin stressed about the whole situation between us and feels it may be better for us to not be together. Yes, it's also been good but he feels that it is the two of us together that is the problem. I was just listening but this frustrates me so much. He has told me many times we probably shouldn't be together completely forgetting what it is like when it is good and he says he has never loved anybody they way he loves me and there's nobody he has ever felt so good with. Omg the man is 50 years old and every r/s he has been in has followed more or less the same pattern except for recycling me which he has never done before with anybody else.

He had to go and said he would phone me back. He hasn't yet and I am not sure he will. I am still going to send him the message about wanting to meet Friday or i am out but obviously I need to word it differently.

How could I address his statement that we are not good for each other as if this is a comparability problem between the two of us when I know that its not us as individuals but a disordered attachment style that is going to play out in every new r/s unless he faces his problems and his fears?

I am stressed out about this because I know there's no more time. I can't give him any more time.

Any thoughts, feedback and comments are welcome

[almost789]

Hi mitti,  im just going to say that it seems to me that he is feeling pressured. And due to this pressure hes feeling, hes thinking theres a problem with you and him together. Which actually is the case because it is the people with whom they feel closest to which trigger these overwhelming fears. The choice is yours,but if you want to stay together i dont thin u should give him the ultimatum that he see you friday or else your through with him. Unless that is really what you want. If you want to remain, then you should give him space. Can you google this and read and see if it fits your situation?  Aban and engul

[mitti]

Oh yes, I fear of abandonment versus engulfment is exactly what this is about - his push pull behavior. He is aware of this but at the moment doesn't want to seem to address it. He has before though and I have been hoping he would find his way back there. For the past two weeks he seems to have slipped back into behavior I haven't seen for more than a year. I partly wanted to clarify with him whether he was giving me the silent treatment - not really it seems since he picked up the phone today, but I also have some important things to tell him such as having found out where he can seek T for himself because he has been trying hard to find somewhere.

I will not wait indefinitely for him to have his space. I need for this r/s to move forward if it's going to be worth it for me. There has to be some progress or I need to make myself leave him because I am not happy the way things are. If he were to now seek T for himself I would support him and be there for him.

I am not really giving him an ultimatum but a deadline, btw haven't had time to send it yet, and he still hasn't called me back. What is happening on Friday is a deal breaker to me, a boundary. He has trouble accepting this particular situation, he has told our T, because he can't read the it the way other people do. I discussed with my T yesterday and she was the one to suggest I write it as per the last post in the thread in the link above.

it seems to me that he is feeling pressured. And due to this pressure hes feeling, hes thinking theres a problem with you and him together. Which actually is the case because it is the people with whom they feel closest to which trigger these overwhelming fears.

Yes, of course in a way this is true but his point is that it is the two of us that aren't compatible as people not because we have stuff to work through, and we may have great r/s with other people. It's frustrating, and I don't know how to counter that. But I know he is wrong because he is with me repeating the same pattern he always has. I am wanting to find a way to communicate to him that this is not the cause of our r/s-problems. Because I don't agree. If it weren't for his attachment disorder I am sure we would be great together. That's not to say I don't accept he has BPD.

He often takes this stance that, we are not good together, when he doesn't want to deal with his/our issues and feels that he has room to reject me without losing me. And since I have showed him that I want to communicate he must feel pretty safe with me for the time being.

He is using this as a reason to not deal with the real issue. I am just not sure how to refute his argument. Any ideas?

[almost789]

I understand wanting to move forward and progress. This is the reason I pretty much gave up. No progression. Despite him wanting to "be friends" with me, there was NO progression what so ever. Like he wants to keep me in a china cabinet or something and not face anything real. So, I get that.

He feels your two are not compatible. You know different. However, I don't know how you can explain this to him that you are since that is the opposite of what he is saying he feels. Its just very common in this disorder for them to think bad things about us or just that we're not compatable when they start to feel bad due to the intimacy triggering them. This really is the heart of this disorder. Don't leave me, get away. I love you, I hate you. I really don't know how to work through this without a lot of patience and therapy.

How about instead of making a deadline of Friday, you say. I feel like I want to talk with you. When can we get together? And let him tell you when?

[mitti]

Hi SummerT321 and thanks for your replies,

I understand you must feel frustrated with your pwBPDs lack of drive to make things better. It eats away at your soul to not have your needs considered by the person who should be the closest to you.

I can understand that my bf feels we are incompatible and I would like to validate those feelings. But I would like to be able to add and communicate to him why this is, at least open the possibility to him for what I know he already knows, because he himself has told me so many times.

Thanks for your advice but the problem about Friday is that there will be a big event that day involving people and things that are a huge trigger to my PTSD. He knows this on one level but on another he refuses to accept it because it is too hard for him to deal with. He has accepted his part in my PTSD but it is very two-sided for him. I wish it wasn't so and I wish we had more time but I can't deal with the humiliation of this anymore. It's not even just the PTSD itself but a need to see him care for me. He has seen the effect on me, how I suffer, he knows how I have suffered in the past because of things he put me through. A while back he asked for time to deal with this, and I gave it to him. Now there's no more time.

So I guess I am asking for some way to express what's wrong with us so he can decide whether it is worth it to him. Because I know he will come back at some point but he won't have that chance later. He has that chance now. I don't need to see him changed now, I need to see he is prepared to consider the only way to break a pattern is to do something other than he has done before.

[patientandclear]

Mitti, did you decide what to do?  I realize it's Friday now and you may feel out of time to give him any notice that how he handles this situation today is going to matter to how you are willing to proceed with the r/s.

Have you already told him before, though?  If so -- you shouldn't have to tell him again.  The only new fact is the severity of the consequences if he proceeds despite your feelings.

I guess I would advise to hold your fire and wait & see how you feel in a few days' time, if he does go ahead & go despite the feelings you've told him you have about it.  Look, you can always end it based on that if you find  you still want to.  Maybe give yourself a few days and consider giving him a chance to meet and talk with you about the global situation as well as what occurs today, & then you can assess where you think you are.  Staying three more days doesn't meant you have to stay four more days, you know?  I just think you should not put yourself  under the gun to make a decision you may end up regretting.  That (regretting) seems to me to be the worst outcome.  So make sure you are confident that this is the choice you can best live with, before you rule out your other options.

When you recount your last few months, it seems like there's been a sequence of each of you pulling back, no doubt to protect yourselves -- you as well as him -- with the predictable consequence that you each feel the need to guard yourself further.  If he will participate in a talk about what you would each need to feel more at ease, maybe you'd feel like there are some options that appeal to you.  It seems a shame to end it without finding that out, I guess.

[mitti]

Hi P&C,

Thanks for your response and advice. You have a way of breaking down exactly what this is about for me. I have already written to him though and received his reply. I was thinking along the lines of what you say, that in reality I might give him a few days because it is not that I had to know today but that I wouldn't be able to cope knowing he will go to this event, with these people, without me. After the fact I might have found a way to deal with it anyway. I phrased it as  the deal breaker being seeing me or not this evening, but I also said why. The deal breaker is not seeing me or not but whether going to this event. I discussed this thing with my T earlier this week and she suggested I lay all the cards on the table and let him know why I want to see him this evening, that it is this event that is the problem for me and of course if he sees me, I know he is not going there. I did write that to him. Perhaps I should have expressed it differently. But I know that at the moment he needs distance and I can't handle it. Last time it took him 7 months to come out of it. Yes, he acted differently and coped worse. He is doing better this time. I believe that when he picked up the phone yesterday that it was a conscious effort on his part to be strong enough to do so. I am sure that he was feeling panicky and wanted anything but talk to me. I am kind of proud of him for being able to resist his impulses to avoid me.

In the message today I also told him about the place where he can seek T for himself, that I disagree with him about us being bad together and that this is pattern that he keeps repeating and the only way to break it is to do something other than he has done before. I reminded him of some good times. I reminded him that the only person who has both of our stories is our T and how counter-productive it can be to take the advice from somebody who only has one side of the story. I validated his feelings of anxiety around me at the moment because truly I can understand. I feel nauseous too every time we speak these days. But I added that these negative feelings are going to settle like they always have before but I cannot wait until they do by themselves. That was the gist of my email. It was to the point and not very long.

The reply from him read:

"You and I aren't going to see each other any more. Where I go is none of your business. I don't want to reject you and that's why we aren't going to see each other any more. I don't want to see you tonight or any other time. Thank you and goodbye"

I had expected this or no reply at all but I am still shocked. Because it hurts. I was prepared this would be the outcome but I knew it will hurt. :'(

[mitti]

Btw, I replied to his email. I wasn't going at first but I wanted to do something other than I have done before. He has sent me similar messages as this one quite a few times during our 4 years together. I have usually responded either but pleading, reasoning, arguing, trying to get him to change his mind, or I have given him a few days, up to a few weeks of NC.

I wanted to do something that to him will be a new kind of response from me. So I simply wrote back "OK" and nothing more. I will not contact him again. And I don't want to secretly hope that he will contact me but I find my mind drifting towards that, hoping for it. What to do?

[patientandclear]

Oh Mitti, I'm so sorry.   

I think the great difficulty for both you and me is that there actually may not be anything to do.

The man you love and the man I love are both exercising free will in response to their very confused, turbulent feelings about intimacy and trusting another human being.  It sounds like yours, as well as mine, prefers to view these difficult feelings as the result of being with the wrong person somehow -- not as something they carry with them into every relationship.

I wish from the bottom of my heart that my ex would delve into the patterns he endlessly repeats, with all women; would notice that each time he has uncomfortable feelings about me, they settle; would register that he & I seem able to process those episodes without much damage these days; and would add it all up, realize he has an attachment disorder, decide that it is worth it to stay in one place and address that, rather than constantly moving on just to replay it again elsewhere.

But he isn't doing any of those things.  Nor, from the sound of things, is your pwBPD, at least not fully, or not yet.

By communicating love and willingness to try and understanding, we've done what we can do.  From that point on, it really is up to them.  They may or may not take something from these losses that eventually brings some additional insight.  But we aren't going to make that happen through anything we do from here on out.

I don't want it to be this way either.  My ex just told me he is leaving town, likely for good. A large part of my heart is still asking "why? why don't you see?  why don't you want to stay and figure this out? why don't you draw the obvious conclusion? why do you always leave?"  Even though consciously, I know the answers to all those questions.  Since he is not, seemingly, willing to go down that hard road of dealing with his own attachment disorder, continued dealings with me are actually quite painful for him.  He continually gets close, feels scared/bad, gets confused, pulls away, feels the loss, re-approaches ... .  it's exhausting.  I can understand why he's not feeling the joy of it.  But it is really breaking my heart that it appears neither of our efforts to be the best we can be for each other are going to be enough so that we can actually be partners in a normal way.

I hate BPD.  For you, for me, for all of us who would do this if we possibly could do it in a healthy, good way.

[almost789]

Oh Jeeze Mitti, that sounds harsh. I'm so sorry. I know you don't want to wait anymore for him, you've waited so long. There's not much to do right now, perhaps time will help you detach regardless of whether he contacts back or not you can start trying to detach emotionally from him.

[mitti]

Thanks SummerT321,

That's what I intend to do. I am just so disappointed though even though I expected it. He is the love of my life and I have to let him go because I cannot handle any more emotional pain, and more betrayal and humiliation.

I feel lonely and heartbroken  :'(

Thanks for your support

[mitti]

Yes, P&C, our exes seem to share the same idea that we are somehow wrong for each other rather than their having a disordered attachment style. It frustrates me that my ex actually has such good understanding of his problems and what it is that causes his panic in our r/s and yet, when it comes to the crunch he is unable to stick with this conviction and understand the dynamic. How is it that he cannot remember that he does love me, that his panic settles and that his feelings return? We have been through this so many times. And he forgets every time how he felt then.

Yes, like you I feel I have done what I can. And I have left it up to him. He may not go tonight and obviously if he then contacts me I may listen to what he has to say but I really doubt he didn't go. He is in that frame of mind these days. And if he hadn't planned on going I may have made him go by asking him not to. This is what he is like - when in this part of his cycle any wish I voice can make him feel manipulated and controlled. But I knew when I wrote it that I may trigger that reaction in him.

It's so painful to see them destroy all their possibilities. I hate BPD also. I wish he knew how much I actually do understand him.

Thanks for your support   and I am sorry you can't have the r/s you want with the man you love

[mitti]

I just found out that he never went to that thing. I still won't contact him but it does change how I see a possible way forward with him should he contact me.

[patientandclear]

The only good thing about the constantly shifting emotions of pwBPD is that ... .  they are constantly shifting!

Maybe your honesty and warmth as you conveyed the significance of this event tonight actually registered.  I think it will take a while for him to sift and process.  I hope he manages to get himself to a place where he can engage as you've asked him to.

[maria1]

Hi Mitti

I'm so sorry for what you are going through right now. I have to say that it seems that this relationship is causing you great pain. He is telling you clearly that he cannot be in the relationship. The painful part is in accepting that. I read a great line recently about self denial "We use it to shut out our awareness of things it would be too disturbing to know"

the same idea that we are somehow wrong for each other rather than their having a disordered attachment style. It frustrates me that my ex actually has such good understanding of his problems and what it is that causes his panic in our r/s and yet, when it comes to the crunch he is unable to stick with this conviction and understand the dynamic. How is it that he cannot remember that he does love me, that his panic settles and that his feelings return? We have been through this so many times. And he forgets every time how he felt then.

My observation from where I am (still stuck a bit!) is why you will stay on undecided- because you do not wish to accept that the disorder prevents this relationship from working. There isn't anything you can do to fix it. I think you need to properly let him go. That means stop trying to come up with things to say to get him to listen.

He might come back on his own but it will all play out the same in time. You can't fix his attachment disorder- nothing you can say or do will fix this. I'm really sorry if this sounds harsh but I just see you going round and round in circles and I think it will destroy you unless you begin to detach. That means stop thinking about him and think about you. It sounds to me like he is OK.

[mitti]

Thanks for your response Maria1 and for your support,

I don't think you sound harsh exactly but I feel a little confused about you mean and wasn't quite sure how to respond. So I'll just clarify. Why I have stayed on the undecided is that because up until the email I got from him yesterday, he has not said he wanted to leave the r/s since we got back together 18 months ago. Nor has he voiced uncertainty about wanting to remain in the r/s up until the day prior to that. I have, and that is why I have been on the undecided board. I started this thread not because he had said he wanted out and I wanted to find a way to convince him otherwise but because he had said he wasn't sure and the reason he gave me was a somewhat flawed perception of why things are the way they are. So I asked for help to communicate this to him as a way forward.

For the past 18 months his push pull has not involved his leaving the r/s but taking days of LC. Since a huge crisis 14 months ago he has been totally committed to staying in the r/s. We were both in T together for almost a whole year, on his initiative. He has made a lot of progress in many areas. I have not been undecided because of his BPD as such but because of difficulties solving a dilemma brought on by past trauma during our 7 months apart more than 18 months ago. Obviously his disorder is to blame for the dilemma and partly to blame for why we haven't been able to agree on how to solve it. Our stalemate re a possible way forward caused a huge crisis in October. I made it clear to him this issue between us was a deal breaker for me. He asked for time. Before then he had coped by burying his head in the sand and then the severity of it seemed to dawn on him. It triggered his BPD of course. Yes, I have found his distancing from me a huge problem lately. P&C's description is the exact same thing my T told me has been happening between us since this crisis and my feeling undecided.

When you recount your last few months, it seems like there's been a sequence of each of you pulling back, no doubt to protect yourselves -- you as well as him -- with the predictable consequence that you each feel the need to guard yourself further.

From a post on this site I realized that my hesitation about our future together was detrimental to our r/s. So I have been posting here to try and sort some things out for myself and get off the fence. I didn't see the need to let him go for as long as he hadn't indicated to me he wanted to break up. I was the one undecided and not him. I am sorry I don't mean to sound argumentative but just wanting to clarify in case I have been unclear about our past. He sent his response to me not 24 hours ago, I posted my last comment in this thread a few hours after, that I am accepting this and won't contact him again. I made sure he knows I am OK with it also.

I do think about me and I take good care of myself these days. I have just come back from a holiday. I meet friends, I go to the gym. I don't fret over us any more. I don't spend every hour thinking about him. I no longer have panic attacks. I have worked hard at healing from codependency and I have been doing well. I believe that is why I found myself undecided as before I would have stayed with him no matter what. Yes, I cried yesterday because it is painful to accept a breakup from somebody you love. I will cry some more no doubt but I will be OK.

It sounds to me like he is OK.

He is far from OK though, he hasn't been even close to OK since October. He suffers inner turmoil and pain from the moment he wakes up every day. As a BPD sufferer he is in almost constant panic even when he seems to be in better shape. I know, however, he is not my responsibility. I gave him the name and address of a clinic where he can seek help and so it's up to him.

Denial, perhaps occasionally, disbelief over how crazy BPD is, yes, often. It's like a bizarre dream where reality is totally distorted and you are aware it is. But you just can't wake up.

I hope my response hasn't come across as argumentative. I just wanted to clarify because I wasn't sure what you meant, in case I hadn't been clear.

Thanks again for your support 

[maria1]

You don't come across as argumentative- you have every right to state your feelings because they are your feelings! I thnk I haven't fully understood the situation and I was seeing things in what yu were posting which were just a snapshot of now- you know the whole situation.

I'm sorry I think I just misjudged it Mitti. I hope you are doing OK and thank you for reacting so gently! 

[mitti]

No worries Maria1,

It's so difficult to get a clear picture of somebody else's situation especially something as complex as a BPD r/s, and then we want to keep it fairly brief when posting as well. It's not easy on either side.

Thank you 

[really]

Hi Mitti,

Your story sounds very much like where I was in early January of last year.     In my case  ex broke things off suddenly, then came back (for one evening) then went quiet on me.    She said later that I should have known from what she said that I shouldn't have been chasing her and that my contact made her feel pressured.   At the time I had no knowledge of BPD.

I failed miserably at simply walking away which would have been the most kind thing to do and in the end I simply pushed her further away and further into the arms of my replacement and now fiancee.   

It is only recently that I have even begun to get any sense of peace about what happened, although I still have a huge way to go and still shake when I think back to what happened.

I think your posts show a real understanding about things that I lacked in the early days of my breakup.    In my case keeping contact, seeking answers and trying to convince her that what we had was worth saving, certainly triggered her BPD behaviours.

It's good that you can focus on you.    Something I did not do during my relationship with my ex or for a good while after and it's only now that I am beginning to be able to do this and work through by own issues (Co-dep etc).

Be kind to yourself.   

[mitti]

Hi really,

Thanks for your kinds words. So sorry to hear that you have been through the trauma of a BPD r/s and a breakup and before you were prepared. At least I can say this time about myself I was prepared and "ready". Not wanting it but not wanting to stay in status quo either. But I wasn't at all prepared the first time around, or any of the times. He hasn't done this for 2 years though.

Last time, 2 years ago, I also failed miserably at walking away. We do because the way a pwBPD is able to cut a person out of their lives is just totally alien to anybody else. Normal people are just not able to detach in the blink of an eye. An especially if we have no knowledge or experience of BPD it's even harder. There's just no way to prepare then. I ended up a total wreck and it was only just before we got back together after 7 months that I was starting to pick myself up.

After that, I changed. I promised myself I would never end up in the same abyss of total darkness if he left me again. Part of it was taking focus off him and onto myself.

I am glad to hear that you are on the part to a better life. You will get there.

Wish you all the best