How do I get out of a marriage to BPD and not lose everthing?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Wife is BPD... .  can get very aggressive and abusive, threats, violent.  We have a home, assets.  How do I get out and not lose everything?  She will "hunt me down"  I feel desperate?  I am in the Phoenix area and need help.

[sansa]

Wife is BPD... .  can get very aggressive and abusive, threats, violent.  We have a home, assets.  How do I get out and not lose everything?  She will "hunt me down"  I feel desperate?  I am in the Phoenix area and need help.

[Gottagonow]

How long have you been married? Kids?

[sansa]

How long have you been married? Kids?

My kids are grown up and support themselves.  Married over 20 years.

[theodore]

First of all, prepare yourself for the fact that this is gonna take some time.  I was in your shoes 2 years ago and I'm still working on finishing my divorce.  I think I see light at the end of the tunnel (but that maybe an illusion).  I don't plan to "lose everything" but I do expect to lose half.

Read the LIST and prepare yourself: www.forum.dadsdivorce.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=15642

Then come back here. Ask questions.  Formulate your strategy.  And take heart knowing that there are many just like you.

[sansa]

Link you sent did not work.  2 years to finish a divorce?  lawyers?  lots of money?  I'm considering just vaporizing... .  getting lost.  Take some money and go.  Is it really worth struggling on for years?

Do you still live in the same town?  does she leave you alone?  My wife would hound me to the ends of the earth.

I want to be fair and reasonable... .  but I know that will never happen.  And the borderline stuff... .  the emotionally instability... .  the irrationality of it all.  It just seems so hopeless to try to do this legally.  Just want to disappear.  Had you considered that?   

[scraps66]

FIRST!  Don't get side tracked with being NICE.  Protect yourself.  From what you've written being nice will get you hurt and waht you're afraid of, losing everything.

Since no kids involved, maybe devise a plan to get yourself some physical separation by finding alternate living arrangements. 

As a first step, do something to protect your assets, split up credit cards - take your name off of any joint accounts.  If and when she finds out you want to leave, she could try to spend everything so you can't leave.

Some more info, does she work, can she work, are you documenting the behavior?

[sfbayjed]

I know you are in a bad state emotionaly right now. You are under alot of stress. It is good that you have made it to a point that you want to end your disfunctional relationship. The bad news is you are a man. It may be hard to convince the system that you are afraid of her and get any protection from the system unless she does something extreme. What exactly do you mean by she will hunt you down?

The good news is that your kids are grown and you will not have to deal with what is the major problem in divorcing a bp, which is child custody, Your kids are adults. The other good news is that Arizona is a no fault state. It doesnt matter to the family court who did what as far as property issues. So even though you are likely going to be the victum of a distortion campain it will hardly matter if you protect yourself. Alot of people might believe her at first but people that know both of you will likely figure it out eventualy.

So my suggestion is;

1. Protect yourself from harm

2. Protect yourself from false allegations of abuse. Check the recording laws and be recording anytime you are alone with her. You only need this to protect yourself from false arrest. You dont really need it for anything else because you are in a no fault state and your kids are grown.  

3. find layer and refuse to settle for anything that is not fair.

4. dont expect any success at mediation or settlement conferences. Never push back the trial date.

5. find a good therapist to talk to.

6. Wait.

7 wait.

8. Her sense of entitlement will prevent her from being able to accept any kind of deal thats fair, or if she does she will likely go back on it before it becomes an order.

9. Wait

10. wait until she has to take the deal thats fair or until the day of trial  

[sfbayjed]

Just because it takes along time to got legally divorced from someone with a high conflict personality does not mean you can not emotionalky divorce yourself and have almost no contact with her in a very short time and begin reffering to her as your soon to be ex wife.

[ForeverDad]

In a separate post you mentioned joint accounts.  You're an adult, she's an adult.  Either or both of you can have your own personal accounts.  What's preventing you from having a personal account?  Is she demanding you put your earnings in the joint accounts?

One facet of entitled and disordered thinking has been summed up as "My money is mine and your money is ours."  Does that fit your relationship?

While you likely would not drain the accounts if you got enraged, a pwBPD (or similar entitled PD) whose emotional facts mean everything while logical facts are denied can easily do that.  In general no one objective would see anything wrong with you putting half into your personal account and your future earnings into your personal account, especially if that was money you had put in there.  Of course, if you're paying the bills for the family you would still have to pay them.  And maybe a divorce decision or settlement would later send some her way - or more to you - that's all for the future, we're talking about now.

On the one hand, being married means that at least some of your assets will likely be considered marital, though the specifics vary from state to state.  But not everything must be joint.  For example, if you had an inheritance and kept it separate from being mixed with marital money, that typically is viewed as still yours.

On the other hand, likely much of what is considered marital assets is partly yours, however, if you two can't agree on a settlement it would be up to a judge to order how the financials are split.

Since the children are grown, there is no custody risk on leaving.  Just be aware that if she is not working or earns less than you, you may be ordered to pay interim spousal support or keep paying some or all of the marital bills.  If a relatively short marriage you may not face much risk of alimony or maybe only long enough for her to get a job or job training.

If she 'burns down the house' out of spite or threats, make you're you're not nearby.  There's truth in the saying that the people with BPD (pwBPD) are more triggered with those closest to them.  So if you get some distance between you, it's likely her rants, rages, threats, etc will (eventually) reduce.

Divorce is best done in a businesslike way.  Letting emotions rule the day is a prescription for chaos, delay, obstruction, allegations, etc.  Yes, she will likely do all that, you can't avoid every problem, but it us up to you as the reasonably normal person to keep away from as many of those triggers as possible.  In a reverse twist of logic, you trying to reason with her and always failing just enables her to keep acting as she has done in the past.  They crave the engagement, even if it's mostly negative engagement.

Very important - get a copy (paper or electronic) of Bill Eddy's Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder found at Amazon or Eddy's website www.highconflictinstitute.com

[sansa]

Wow... .  thank all of you for your quick and insightful advice.  while I know in my head I see things clearly there is always the haunting thoughts that I am to blame.  There always seems to be the invective blaming me.  there is the guilt and the fear even though I know what I see.  How good men or women get themselves into this situation and... .  the time it takes to finally see what your really living with is amazing.

As for being "hunted down"... .  she somehow always seem to find where I go and hound me to come back.  Maybe I need a restraining order and from all I hear... .  a good lawyer no matter what it costs.

[ForeverDad]

It's often been called a blamer's disorder.  Generally they've had years and even a lifetime learning to be persuasive blamers.

[catnap]

Wow... .  thank all of you for your quick and insightful advice.  while I know in my head I see things clearly there is always the haunting thoughts that I am to blame.  There always seems to be the invective blaming me.  there is the guilt and the fear even though I know what I see.  How good men or women get themselves into this situation and... .  the time it takes to finally see what your really living with is amazing.

As for being "hunted down"... .  she somehow always seem to find where I go and hound me to come back.  Maybe I need a restraining order and from all I hear... .  a good lawyer no matter what it costs.

A good lawyer that is familiar with dealing with high conflict personalities.  Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder is an excellent resource and has a section on what to ask an attorney before paying a retainer.  You may have to consult several (some will do a free or low cost consultation) to find the right fit for you.  The added advantage is that if you consult some of the top notch divorce attorneys in your area, she cannot retain them for herself, as it would be a conflict of interest. 

Getting a restraining order is a good idea, especially if you have experience with her actions from the past. 

It is essential that all your fact finding, consulting, gathering financial papers, etc. be done without her knowledge. 

You can do a search for high conflict attorneys in your area. . .for example: www.michaelshew.com/Family-Law/High-Conflict-Cases.shtml

[theodore]

Link you sent did not work. 

I resent the link to you via PM.  Read The LIST before you do anything.

2 years to finish a divorce?  lawyers?  lots of money?  I'm considering just vaporizing... .  getting lost.  Take some money and go.  Is it really worth struggling on for years?

Most of us here average two years to complete a divorce from a pwBPD.  Vaporizing?  How would you do that?  She'll know where you are because your children or other acquaintances will tell her.  If you squander the money, the court system will come after you too; and they will believe all of her stories because you took the money and hid.

I wouldn't advise this.  But if you do it, please come back and tell us about it so the next person can learn from your experience; good or bad.

Do you still live in the same town?  does she leave you alone?  My wife would hound me to the ends of the earth.

I don't live in the same town with her anymore.  She's in the East SF Bay and I'm in the South SF Bay.  I did not want to stay in the same community because of the distortion campaign.  I can't honestly say if she is conducting a distortion campaign because I don't keep contact with any of her friends or family; I suspect she probably is.  My grown children tell me occasionally about the things she is saying about me - but that's a whole 'nuther story.

She leaves me alone except for the motions she files with the court.  I think my Nut Job is a little unusual in that regard.  I don't really know why.  I am NC with her except for what's required with the court.

I want to be fair and reasonable... .  but I know that will never happen. 

Sure, you should be fair and reasonable.  I am fair and reasonable.  But don't expect that she will return the favor.

Divorce is very hard and emotionally straining.  Let me repeat that.  Divorce is very hard and emotionally straining. 

But in my case, it is worth it.  I have never been happier in my life.  Divorcing my Nut Job is the best decision I have ever made.  It has also been the most difficult task I have ever undertaken.

[slimmiller]

Take a deep breath and relax. Clear your head as much as you can. You being disheaveled and off balance is what they count on. Thats what their life is and once they reduce you to that, they have the advantage. As the other said, read 'Splitting'. Start documenting now. It does two things, helps you to get things out of your head and also remember things should litigation ensue later.

Dealing with BPD is kinda like standing in a bucket with scorpions crawling on your feet. They will do all they can to provoke you to move and when you do (even though its your warmth that sustains their life in the first place so to speak) they will sting you. Move slow and easy. Plot a plan and go from there. But remember your strategy may have to change a dozen times


Stay close to this borad as well. Folks on here will never know how invaluable it has been to me to have this board.

Good Luck...

[Forestaken]

I am currently divorcing a violent uBPD-dOCD+s2bx. 2 kids D19+S23

I was lucky to the fact that she left to go to a family event and didn't return for several months.  I was too busy enjoying the lost of tension and violence to prepare (me=dummy).  

If you can start hiding money.  My favor tactic: Using debit card at Home depot and get cash back, or buying then returning unnecessary items for cash.  My s2bx checked every receipt except HD because she preceived I was cheating and buying things for my phantom gf.

Move records off-site, copy them and move them back. Gym bags with sweat socks were my favorite method.  Also, $10 here and there in a gym shoe adds up and find a safe off-site place (I moved off $500) put the money in a binder clip box at the bottom of my desk filing cabinet.  

Get the kids on your side, It sounds dirty but in my case necessary and easy. She abused us all and just the threat of having them testify against her made her L back off. (they didn't testify)

If you use your cellphone for any communicatin. Clean it up before you enter the door, the art of war is the art of deception

[theodore]

If you can start hiding money.  My favor tactic: Using debit card at Home depot and get cash back, or buying then returning unnecessary items for cash.

I advise against this.  Take the high road.  Don't do anything that you will have to lie about in the future; or that you might regret.

Your focus shouldn't be on money, it should be on getting away from the toxic relationship with your Nut Job.

At some point, this will all be behind you.  Your Nut Job will be gone from your life and you will be happy.  Probably, you will be in a new relationship with your new found true love.  Your behavior today will determine if your true love will want to be with you tomorrow.

[ForeverDad]

Money.  It can be seen both ways.  From a balanced, practical staNPDoint, you do need to build up a reserve of cash or personal funds for emergencies, etc.  However, don't use trigger phrases like 'hiding' or you could get yourself into trouble.  So just be careful how you describe whatever you're doing.

You're an adult, your spouse is an adult.  Both of you are allowed by law to have personal accounts and personal belongings.  Just use such accounts or other personal savings/reserves properly and no one will ever fault you or claim you are hiding money - except, of course, your spouse.

[sfbayjed]

My STBEx loved on-line banking because she could track every cent I spent. I often was screamed at about wasting money for stuff like 6 dollars on lunch. This is at a time when we had plenty of money comming in. She would want to spend thousands on trips and vacations to places she wanted to go too.  and I would get just screamed at for spending 12 bucks on hotwheels. Freaking nuts. The irony is the 12 bucks on hotwheels provided more joy than the thousands spent going on a drama filled vacations.  One time she literally grabbed the steering wheel and pulled on it as we were driving down the freeway, in L.A. on the way to Disney, screaming. "Take me to the f*ing airport" as the kids were screaming and crying in the back.  We are stuck driving on the busy freeway with this raging lunitic. I was just stuck there trying to drive while she went off for a good 30 minutes, easy. Pushing me, hitting on me, grabbing the wheel, Its like she would sit there and think and get her self worked up and lash out; hit, push, or grab the steering wheel.  then sit there a few more minutes and get herself worked up again and do something else.  It was terrirfying. All because I asked her "Can you please stop talking on the phone so loud" after several minutes of screaming at her mom on the phone.    Then the next day she was normal and we had a good a time as a tramatized dad and two kids could.

[birdlady]

If you have a L you are very unlikely to lose everything. You may "lose" about half of the joint assets.

I've lost my home, and I lost some of my possessions that got left when I had to move prematurely after an act of physical domestic violence.  The settlement is not finalized, but the dissolution is and he is remarrying (bifurcated divorce). I may not get every last cent or thing that I should, but I'm not going away without asserting my rights under the law. I'm not out to "take" him.  I am out to get a fair settlement as the law allows. 

But what I've "lost" I've more than gained back in being free from 90% of the crazy-making.  I'm learning to let the crazy making that is still ongoing in the legal process and his unwanted communications be his problem.  I have a lawyer who is well worth her fees and she serves as a buffer. Just by being out of the relationship I win, and I win very big. Rest assured, you will only lose everything if you give up and/or if you don't realize that you are gaining so very much spiritually by being out of the toxic relationship.  You see I'm getting me back and you can, too. Best wishes to you.

[sansa]

Once again... .  thank you to everyone who has responded to my post.  Your experience and insight is much appreciated. This is such a hard thing to wrap my mind around... .  knowing what I'm seeing, hoping it will change... .  but it never does.  My wife can be loving and kind and then BOOM! the emotionally unregulated (or whatever you want to call it) happens.  There is no way I could stay in my house after she was served.  Even if I did document everything... .  it's my word against her's. 

... .  the problems are always caused by me and if I try to explain why an incident gets so out of control... .  I'm always a liar.  I always feel like it's an Alice & Wonderland adventure... .  through the rabbit hole.

[sansa]

she went off for a good 30 minutes, easy. Pushing me, hitting on me, grabbing the wheel, Its like she would sit there and think and get her self worked up and lash out; hit, push, or grab the steering wheel.  then sit there a few more minutes and get herself worked up again and do something else.  It was terrirfying. All because I asked her "Can you please stop talking on the phone so loud" after several minutes of screaming at her mom on the phone.    Then the next day she was normal and we had a good a time as a tramatized dad and two kids could.

the above is so symptomatic... .  then the next day they expect you to act as if nothing happened.  If you try to talk about it... .  it's pointless or worse... .  another knock-down drag-out argument.






[/quote]

[ForeverDad]

Sadly, it all circles back to the fact that you can't Reason with Unreason.  Mental illness is not limited to a person drooling, incoherent or hearing voices.  It's been said that Borderline is a term that arose to describe people who weren't quite insane, but not quite sane or reasonably normal either.

Trying to reason with such a person will often result in denial, ignoring as though it never happened, counter-claims, response meant to distract or change the subject, etc.  You just can't 'win' if the other person won't let you 'win'.

[slimmiller]

I see some objections raised about hiding money. Its just as much yours as hers if you both produce it and I am willling to bet there have been plenty of times where as others have described, unreasonable and silly how she spent it. Hiding money is part of starting to assert yourself in your life. She will never let you take care of yourself if she has her way. Its not necessarily wrong or immoral to hide money, its taking care of 'you'. Any mention of you taking care of you by doing something for your self, like putting a few bucks back, will only cause her to lash out. She will never reason in that aspect.

When we were going through the details of our split, I proposed that since I am closer to retirement then her, I take more of the 401k then her and instead pay off 'her' car instead. I could no way drive it through her head what I was proposing. She would say we have to split everything, including debt.  Now this morning she says, 'would it be better for you if you paid off the car and I take less of your retirement?' I said but 'thats not what we had agreed on' She locked up and acted like I insulted her.


Bottom line, reasoning is futile. Or should I say 'they' are futile

[Forestaken]

You're gonna need some cash reserves, I know I'm in the middle of it and I have about exhausted all of mine.  I wish I had socked away more for the L.  My neighbor used to be a bank manager and told of stories where folk put stacks of cash in safety deposit boxes.

sansa and sfbayjed: Your stories of driving down the road with a crazy lady hitting you brings back a lot of bad memories for me.  I experience similar events.  Now I feel "financially violated" going through the settlement process.  But I rather her violate me financially than continue to violate my emotional well-being.

[theodore]

Hiding money is okay, IF you declare it in the end.  When you file your statement of assets with the divorce papers.  At that time, be prepared to give her half of what you stashed away.

[sansa]

As recommended I read Splitting, protecting yourself... .  If that is what I have to look forward to I do think just leaving with my share of the assets (forget the house) and disappear.  thousands of dollars of lawyer's fees?  months or years to reach a settlement?  a hostile judicial system?  It doesn't seem worth the hassle.  I don't have custody issues.  Can anyone tell me why I should go through the humiliation of it all?

[ForeverDad]

One potential risk with just disappearing is that you have no influence on whatever legal action your spouse might take.  What if in your absence she files and gets favorable court orders (think alimony or ownership of other marital assets) and you're not accessible to give the other side of the story?  You could lose by default simply by not contesting.

If children are grown and custody or risk of child support are not issues, then yes you perhaps could to take your "portion" and leave but you still ought to monitor what happens afterward.  Very important: Get a few local legal consultations to determine your risks AND your options.  They are confidential and either free or inexpensive.  There are too many ways your spouse could sabotage your escape and make it very painful for many years to come even if you're remote.

Being away and having distance may be appropriate as a "first step" so that you have the time and space to then determine what to do next.  But get those confidential legal consultations so you can find out the rules of the legal system, there are just too many ways to make legal blunders.

[Forestaken]

As recommended I read Splitting, protecting yourself... .  If that is what I have to look forward to I do think just leaving with my share of the assets (forget the house) and disappear.  thousands of dollars of lawyer's fees?  months or years to reach a settlement?  a hostile judicial system?  It doesn't seem worth the hassle.  I don't have custody issues.  Can anyone tell me why I should go through the humiliation of it all?

Because you will be hunted down like a wounded deer, that's why.  My s2bx left for almost a year, when she got wind I had filed, she was on the next plane.  She figured it out at 6pm and flew back ( on her broom stick) before lunch the next day.  Plus she arranged to be picked up at the airport.

[minkmink]

do you live in CA. If you do (and I hope that you do) CA has a whole calculation sheet which is set up to give assets 50/50 in a long term marriage. CA is a community property state.

if not then I would suggest putting enough money in an account to pay the bills of both of you for atleast 10 months including 15,000 minimum in attorneys fees (that is if there is enough for that)

move to an apartment and stop trying to settle with her. Just get out and file. After that you can show your attorney what you have done, showing that you are not hiding anything and that you have been in good faith. the court will not fault you IF YOU FILE. Dn't let her file first. Tell her you want to work it out. Stash the cash, move out, if you can take a reasonable amount of furniture so you do not have to purchase more. Take pictures of everything in the house with another cell phone. Put that cell in a safe deposit box along with cash money for emergencies. Put the pics in the safety deposit box. Start preparing.

BE NICE. Until you are ready to man the battle stations.

Above everything! Gather all financial documents, including assets, house title, bank statements, EVERYTHING. If you are able to supply the court all the discovery she will not be able to stall the discovery and that can get really expensive. Also, get everything on any debt you/she owes, credit cards take her off of them but not until the day you leave. Be prepared to File the next day when you do this or she will accuse you of leaving her deserted.

Pick your attorney first and then give him/her their retainer. Get an apartment. Prepare Prepare Prepare.

Don't move out until you have all financial docs out of the house. make copies when she is not home. Don't forget taxes for the last five years. Move the money. Make a cash stash and put it in a safe deposit box where it is paperless. No statements to go to the house on any of the accounts.

Until this is all done do not say another word about leaving. Once you are fully prepared with attorney, financial info, attorney, attorney fees and money in your name only to pay bills. Get your apartment and FILE!

do not try to hide anything in the house she will find them. Or in the garage. she will find them. no communication at all on e mail, text, cell etc. do not use the phone at home.

Mink

Mink

[Forestaken]

As for hidden cash:

Her L asked where I got the money to pay for legal fees:

The money I stashed,

I gave to my dad,

he wrote me a check for the same amount,

I said I borrowed it from him

I know it's not exactly legal. but neither is lying to a judge and they will do it.

Interesting: While boxing up her stuff this weekend, I found $350 she hid in different envelopes over the years.  Some were in envelops from advertisements (Hmmmm) .  She was hidding money too!