2nd day in court today. the "Splitting" book methods are working.

[stuckinbetween]

My L. read all the articles and the book, "Splitting" which I'd sent her well before trial.  She was so sweet to my NPDh (L. is really a bulldog) and ladled out so much narc supply that he was wagging his tail and eating out of her hand.  In so doing, he told the court that he loved his work and was so passionate about it that he had no intention of giving up his business. (even though he's retired).  This showed the court how successful he's been and that he can afford to pay alimony.  L. showed a You Tube video of h giving a key note speech before an adoring audience.  H was so pleased with my L. showcasing his greatness that he walked over to her and gave her an autographed copy of his book.

So L. got all sorts of info from him by disarming him.  She has led him over the cliff but he doesn't know it yet.  He'll know about it tomorrow when she changes her demeanor and finishes him off.  Ouch.

Still it ain't over 'til it's over.  It's court.  Anything can happen.  Please keep me in your thoughts and prayers.  I can feel it from you.  I really can.

Stuckinbetween

[Jai Yen]

Hang in there! I'm with you right in the thick of things too. 

[livednlearned]

You have the best spirit, stuckinbetween.

I know this has to be excruciating for you, and you're physically dealing with a lot, not to mention the financial burdens and worrying about your daughter. You're the definition of resilience. Big hug to you, and I'm glad you let us know how things are going. What a smart thing to give your L a copy of Splitting! I pictured the whole scene like it was out of Hollywood movie, and went and grabbed some popcorn and a coke. Handing her an autographed copy of his book, omg.

[stuckinbetween]

Yes LNL,

But I learned what happened.  My L. had bought h's book used on Amazon and held it up to the court saying it got 5 stars on Amazon, reading the reviews on the back, which were glowing, etc.  But when NPDh went over to autograph the book he seemed dismayed by the fact that it was a used copy.  He expressed regrets that it wasn't new.  What?  She wasn't paying him a royalty?  It wasn't in pristine condition?  How unworthy of his greatness.

My Fla. friend went to observe in court today and she said h's L. was so incompetent it was embarassing and the whole day was more bizarre than she ever imagined.  Bad day for h and his L.  I'll tell about it this weekend.  I'm so exhausted right now that my eyes are crossed.

Stuckinbetween

Hugs back.  Hang in, Jai Yen.  It can be worth it.

[Matt]

Sounds like you and your lawyer really have a plan, and you're working it.

That's a very good sign!

[livednlearned]

Yes LNL,

But I learned what happened.  My L. had bought h's book used on Amazon and held it up to the court saying it got 5 stars on Amazon, reading the reviews on the back, which were glowing, etc.  But when NPDh went over to autograph the book he seemed dismayed by the fact that it was a used copy.  He expressed regrets that it wasn't new.  What?  She wasn't paying him a royalty?  It wasn't in pristine condition?  How unworthy of his greatness.

Yeah, the narcissism stuff can be pretty surreal. Definitely an Achilles heel (accidentally wrote it first as "hell," which is probably just as accurate).

Hope you're getting some rest. And glad that you had a friend observe for you -- that's awesome 

LnL

[stuckinbetween]

They have more Achille's heels than they have feet!

[AnotherPhoenix]

My L. read all the articles and the book, "Splitting" which I'd sent her well before trial. 

 Stuckinbetween,

What articles did you give to your L to read.

I have a meeting with my L tomorrow, and I want her to learn more about dealing with BPDs. Especially how they are so good at looking good, covering things up, false accusations, smearing, and lying.

Thanks,

AnotherPheonix 

P.S., Has your lawyer changed her "tune" with your soon-to-be-ex? What happened?

[ForeverDad]

In the back of Splitting are "open letters" to lawyers and therapists, they were written to provide an introduction to the topic from the author to the recipient.

The reason this is so difficult to express to others is that those who aren't as close don't see the behaviors because they're not in a close emotional relationship as we are.  The poor behaviors are more evident the closer the relationship, and of course that's usually in private or semi-private settings.  The public mask of seeming normalcy, though, will eventually show cracks.

[AnotherPhoenix]

Thanks, Foreverdad. Besides splitting, what articles would you recommend giving to your L?

StuckInBetween, what articles did you give your L? I will certainly give her "Splitting" and try to get her to read some sections in it.

AnotherPheonix   

[stuckinbetween]

I printed online articles to give to my L. or gave her the links.  I did the research, picked out the most helpful to save time and money.  There's a lot of stuff out there.  I told my L. that many high conflict divorces involve PDs and being knowledgable would help her attract clients.  I think I'm right on that.  Now whether or not she wants to do many of these killer cases is another story.  She's utterly exhausted, too.

Good luck.

[AnotherPhoenix]

I printed online articles to give to my L. or gave her the links.  I did the research, picked out the most helpful to save time and money.  There's a lot of stuff out there.  I told my L. that many high conflict divorces involve PDs and being knowledgable would help her attract clients.  I think I'm right on that.  Now whether or not she wants to do many of these killer cases is another story.  She's utterly exhausted, too.

Good luck.

StuckInBetween,

Congratulations again on how well things seemed to go!

I have the books "Splitting" and the "Effects of a Borderline mother ... .  ", and Bill Eddy's article on high conflict personalities in court. Do you remember the titles of the other articles that you referred your L to? I'm meeting with my L tomorrow, and there seems to be a lot of articles to sort through. Most of the articles I've looked at don't seem to have enough substance to give to my L to read.

Any suggestions are appreciated.

AnotherPheonix   

[stuckinbetween]

I wish I could help, Phoenix, I really do.  The articles I found were about NPD specifically.  I think you've posed a great question and I'll bet others have wisdom on this.  Can you start a new thread?  I for one, would love to hear what others have given their L's about BPD.

Stuckinbetween

[Matt]

I printed online articles to give to my L. or gave her the links.  I did the research, picked out the most helpful to save time and money.  There's a lot of stuff out there.  I told my L. that many high conflict divorces involve PDs and being knowledgable would help her attract clients.  I think I'm right on that.  Now whether or not she wants to do many of these killer cases is another story.  She's utterly exhausted, too.

Good luck.

StuckInBetween,

Congratulations again on how well things seemed to go!

I have the books "Splitting" and the "Effects of a Borderline mother ... .  ", and Bill Eddy's article on high conflict personalities in court. Do you remember the titles of the other articles that you referred your L to? I'm meeting with my L tomorrow, and there seems to be a lot of articles to sort through. Most of the articles I've looked at don't seem to have enough substance to give to my L to read.

Any suggestions are appreciated.

AnotherPheonix   

My suggestion would be to keep it simple, and focus on "Splitting", which has a bunch of great information.

Maybe you could go through it and put post-it notes on the parts that are most relevant.  If you and your attorney can get in synch on the key issues - important ways that divorcing someone with BPD or NPD is different than divorcing someone else - you will be miles ahead of where most of us were at this stage.

[stuckinbetween]

Matt's got good advice. Begin simply. I started with giving my L. Splitting.  She loved it because it gave her a new framework for recognizing and dealing with PDs.  Recognizing her enthusiasm, I later sent specific articles, but I first tested the waters by seeing how she'd react to Splitting.  Try the book first.

[AnotherPhoenix]

 

Thanks, Everybody.

That is what I did, considering how long I thought we would have to talk, my L's preferences, etc.

So, I tagged the letter at the back of the book, then the sections on avoiding predictable problems, blamers and blamers in court, and the parts specifically on BPD and NPD. These sections are in reverse order in the book, so I numbered them by priority. I introduced the book, pointed out that the lawyer has had significant expertise as a therapist and as a lawyer, especially with high conflict couples. I emphasized the letter to lawyers in the back of the book, and which she promptly read.

I then quickly explained that I had tagged short portions of the book that I thought were the most relevant and asked her to read them.

I tried to de-emphasize the BPD and NPD part of the title of the book, and told her that it more about high-conflict cases and blamers. I also said she probably does classify our case as high-conflict regardless of who is causing it.

Then I presented the book to her as a gift. I mentioned that it might help her with other cases. Even though she didn't say anything at that point, she seemed to be intrigued by the book and happy to have it.

So, I think she will read more of it.

I was happy that she read the letter at the back of the book. I think she was more intrigued about the rest of the book after that. One step at a time.

Best,

AnotherPheonix       

[StressedinCleveland]

I gave my lawyer a copy of splitting. He doesn't really consider it relevant, though, because we aren't trying to establish that the STBX is mentally ill, but rather show that she can work full time if she wants to. (She quit her job 8 months after I filed but the judge accepts that she won't find another job at her age in this economy).

[Matt]

I gave my lawyer a copy of splitting. He doesn't really consider it relevant, though, because we aren't trying to establish that the STBX is mentally ill, but rather show that she can work full time if she wants to. (She quit her job 8 months after I filed but the judge accepts that she won't find another job at her age in this economy).

If your lawyer would read it before judging it, he would learn a lot.

It isn't mostly about proving someone is mentally ill, it's about understanding how someone with BPD or NPD (narcissistic personality disorder) can be expected to behave during the divorce process, and what methods work well to deal with that.

In some cases involving custody, it may be helpful to get a diagnosis, and show that the other party's psychological disorder(s) put the kids at long-term risk.

But if that's not the issue in your case, it will still help to understand how personality disorders like NPD and BPD affect the behavior of parties to a divorce, so you can both be prepared.

[sanemom]

I gave my lawyer a copy of splitting. He doesn't really consider it relevant, though, because we aren't trying to establish that the STBX is mentally ill, but rather show that she can work full time if she wants to. (She quit her job 8 months after I filed but the judge accepts that she won't find another job at her age in this economy).

If your lawyer would read it before judging it, he would learn a lot.

It isn't mostly about proving someone is mentally ill, it's about understanding how someone with BPD or NPD (narcissistic personality disorder) can be expected to behave during the divorce process, and what methods work well to deal with that.

But if that's not the issue in your case, it will still help to understand how personality disorders like NPD and BPD affect the behavior of parties to a divorce, so you can both be prepared.

Yeah... .  it DOES help in understanding how they act.  Our lawyer is trying to figure out strategy with BPD mom (we have been lying low and playing by the rules--he is starting to think we should have frequent hearings to get her crazy in front of the judge).  Sometimes it is hard to know.  I think she is about to help us, in our case, by trying to explain to a judge why she thinks that DSD and DH should not be in in counseling together despite the recommendation of DSD's therapist AND the GAL.

[Matt]

I gave my lawyer a copy of splitting. He doesn't really consider it relevant, though, because we aren't trying to establish that the STBX is mentally ill, but rather show that she can work full time if she wants to. (She quit her job 8 months after I filed but the judge accepts that she won't find another job at her age in this economy).

If your lawyer would read it before judging it, he would learn a lot.

It isn't mostly about proving someone is mentally ill, it's about understanding how someone with BPD or NPD (narcissistic personality disorder) can be expected to behave during the divorce process, and what methods work well to deal with that.

But if that's not the issue in your case, it will still help to understand how personality disorders like NPD and BPD affect the behavior of parties to a divorce, so you can both be prepared.

Yeah... .  it DOES help in understanding how they act.  Our lawyer is trying to figure out strategy with BPD mom (we have been lying low and playing by the rules--he is starting to think we should have frequent hearings to get her crazy in front of the judge).  Sometimes it is hard to know.  I think she is about to help us, in our case, by trying to explain to a judge why she thinks that DSD and DH should not be in in counseling together despite the recommendation of DSD's therapist AND the GAL.

Yeah, this is a good example.  It's amazing how often people with these disorders behave pretty much the way the book says.

Many of our members have described how the other party acted out, in front of the judge or another important person, when they are put under pressure.

My wife and I were both deposed - questioned by the other party's attorney under oath.  For me it was pretty easy - just take a deep breath and answer the question that was asked, and stop.  For my wife, it was very difficult and stressful, and caused her to get upset and say a bunch of stuff she shouldn't have.  My lawyer told me, "She was a disaster.  If we go to trial and she acts like that we'll be in very good shape."  She simply can't handle stress, and reacts by lashing out and saying stuff that's just not true or fair - easy to see she is not being honest, and easy to prove it.

Many other members have found the same thing - putting the disordered party under stress, in front of the judge, lets the judge see the problem for herself.

[livednlearned]

Many other members have found the same thing - putting the disordered party under stress, in front of the judge, lets the judge see the problem for herself.

My L read Splitting and said it was fantastic. She had her associate read it, and has given it to some of her colleagues. She has also given it to other clients.

About what Matt said -- putting the disordered party under stress. It certainly helped in my case. N/BPDxh represented himself in court, and even a judge who saw N/BPDxh in action for all of 30 minutes could see the high-functioning NPD stuff very clearly. Then my L wrote up the order that came from that hearing, N/BPDxh wrote 3 pages of objections, and the judge didn't accept any of them.

It helped that there was enough behavior documented to substantiate things, but the most damaging part was N/BPDx acting like an angry narcissist in front of the judge.

[StressedinCleveland]

My lawyer won't read Splitting. He says he hates all that psych mumbo jumbo and most judges do too. Yet, he has planned all along to put my disordered ex under stress. I think he just does that with all opposing parties in his cases, because he's a mean old SOB.  That's what I'm paying him for. I'm a total softy and a teddy bear   which is why I would be a horrible lawyer. 

[Matt]

My lawyer won't read Splitting. He says he hates all that psych mumbo jumbo and most judges do too. Yet, he has planned all along to put my disordered ex under stress. I think he just does that with all opposing parties in his cases, because he's a mean old SOB.  That's what I'm paying him for. I'm a total softy and a teddy bear   which is why I would be a horrible lawyer. 

Well I hope it works for you, but when you offer somebody some very relevant information - some deep insight into how the other party is likely to act during the case, which is very different from how most people act - and your lawyer's mind is closed to that understanding... .  

Usually people who are effective are students - we keep learning new stuff our whole lives.  Somebody who thinks he knows it all - and my first attorney was like that too - "I've seen it all." he said - he probably isn't as smart as he thinks he is.

I'd bet against an attorney who doesn't want information that's relevant to the case.  Ignorance is not a very good strategy.

[StressedinCleveland]

My lawyer won't read Splitting. He says he hates all that psych mumbo jumbo and most judges do too. Yet, he has planned all along to put my disordered ex under stress. I think he just does that with all opposing parties in his cases, because he's a mean old SOB.  That's what I'm paying him for. I'm a total softy and a teddy bear   which is why I would be a horrible lawyer. 

Well I hope it works for you, but when you offer somebody some very relevant information - some deep insight into how the other party is likely to act during the case, which is very different from how most people act - and your lawyer's mind is closed to that understanding... .  

Usually people who are effective are students - we keep learning new stuff our whole lives.  Somebody who thinks he knows it all - and my first attorney was like that too - "I've seen it all." he said - he probably isn't as smart as he thinks he is.

I'd bet against an attorney who doesn't want information that's relevant to the case.  Ignorance is not a very good strategy.

My lawyer is in his 60's, only does litigated divorce cases, and definitely is one of those "I've seen it all types".

But the other relevant fact is that my STBX wife has not had any BPD traits since 2007. She is no longer disorganized or obviously loony. Her behavior is more that of a master manipulator --someone with character disorder. In many ways she is more dangerous than a BPD because she is more grounded in reality.

[ForeverDad]

But the other relevant fact is that my STBX wife has not had any BPD traits since 2007. She is no longer disorganized or obviously loony. Her behavior is more that of a master manipulator --someone with character disorder. In many ways she is more dangerous than a BPD because she is more grounded in reality.

Ditto with my ex.  She was in bed and moaning and groaning around the house so much before the marriage imploded and we separated, she's been totally different once those last few months and since then.  Maybe it was that with her acting so overwhelmed with living she thought it would keep me appeasing her and once apart it didn't work anymore?  Maybe now she doesn't have the option to choose to stay in bed and moaning and groaning?

Still, the professionals and others who are around her for any length of time see that she has significant issues, not that domestic court will do very much about it.  Her behaviors always seem like footnotes for all the good it does to address things significantly.