DH still takes abuse

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

DH went to a session today that was to help get support for SS18 who has development delays. DH told me yesterday that his ex (UBPD) would be there as well. I have talked with him many times about asking before whether both parents really need to be at these types of meetings. But his ex had set it up and he agreed to go.

DH came home today looking totally defeated. He told me that his ex was in fine form. She told lies, bullied him and made the usual negative comments about SS22 (who she paints as All Bad.) She wouldn't let SS18 speak and told the support worker her views when the worker was asking for SS18's. This went on for almost two hours.

DH said a few weeks ago how his ex has been causing less chaos lately. I think he secretly hopes that one day she will just stop being so awful.

DH stayed at the meeting for SS18's sake. They needed to get some paperwork done in order for SS18 to get some help. But DH also admitted that there was absolutely no reason for both parents to be there.

This is not a new thing. After the divorce, his ex set up "family counselling" sessions and he would attend because he said he thought it would help the kids. She used these sessions as a place to blame DH and SS22 for the divorce (she says DH allowed SS22 to bully his brothers and so she asked for a divorce to save her other sons.) She has used this "stage" at counselling sessions for SS20 where she blames DH and SS22 for SS20's addiction issues.

Now that the kids are all adults, the only one DH and his ex need to communicate about is SS18, because he needs guardianship and they have agreed to be joint guardians. I believe his ex fought to be SS18's joint guardians not only so she could try to stop DH from allowing SS18 to do normal things (join sports teams, etc.) but also to have a point of contact with DH.

When DH told me about how his ex was acting today and how frustrated he got, I said that by staying and allowing her this stage, he taught SS18 that is what you do. When you're being abused, you take it. He said he argued with her and I can just imagine her thrill that he was joining the fight. SS18 commented when he came in that it was just "the usual arguing between his parents. I've seen it for 10 years."

I know that DH lived with years of abuse from his ex and although he is better able to walk away now than when they were married, it is still difficult for him to do. His ex knows that one of the ways to get him to be in the same room with her is to say "we need to do this for our child" and for some reason that is enough for him to try trusting her again. It is very sad to watch.

[NorthernGirl]

DH went to a session today that was to help get support for SS18 who has development delays. DH told me yesterday that his ex (UBPD) would be there as well. I have talked with him many times about asking before whether both parents really need to be at these types of meetings. But his ex had set it up and he agreed to go.

DH came home today looking totally defeated. He told me that his ex was in fine form. She told lies, bullied him and made the usual negative comments about SS22 (who she paints as All Bad.) She wouldn't let SS18 speak and told the support worker her views when the worker was asking for SS18's. This went on for almost two hours.

DH said a few weeks ago how his ex has been causing less chaos lately. I think he secretly hopes that one day she will just stop being so awful.

DH stayed at the meeting for SS18's sake. They needed to get some paperwork done in order for SS18 to get some help. But DH also admitted that there was absolutely no reason for both parents to be there.

This is not a new thing. After the divorce, his ex set up "family counselling" sessions and he would attend because he said he thought it would help the kids. She used these sessions as a place to blame DH and SS22 for the divorce (she says DH allowed SS22 to bully his brothers and so she asked for a divorce to save her other sons.) She has used this "stage" at counselling sessions for SS20 where she blames DH and SS22 for SS20's addiction issues.

Now that the kids are all adults, the only one DH and his ex need to communicate about is SS18, because he needs guardianship and they have agreed to be joint guardians. I believe his ex fought to be SS18's joint guardians not only so she could try to stop DH from allowing SS18 to do normal things (join sports teams, etc.) but also to have a point of contact with DH.

When DH told me about how his ex was acting today and how frustrated he got, I said that by staying and allowing her this stage, he taught SS18 that is what you do. When you're being abused, you take it. He said he argued with her and I can just imagine her thrill that he was joining the fight. SS18 commented when he came in that it was just "the usual arguing between his parents. I've seen it for 10 years."

I know that DH lived with years of abuse from his ex and although he is better able to walk away now than when they were married, it is still difficult for him to do. His ex knows that one of the ways to get him to be in the same room with her is to say "we need to do this for our child" and for some reason that is enough for him to try trusting her again. It is very sad to watch.

[mamachelle]

Hi NorthernGirl

I can relate to your post in some ways.  I have a SS15 dx with PDD-NOS and at some point we will need to have guardianship.

My NonH can be so passive in regards to his SS. Almost as soon as we married 6 years ago, I began separate everything for parent teacher, psychologists, etc. Now I'm the primary one to initiate all doctors care for my 3SS.

BPDmom lives across the country now thank my lucky stars... .  

I know my H always used to say at the IEP meetings, "what is the endgame ? "

Of course the teachers love to hear this right.

The reality is that when you are dealing with kids with PDD or developmental delays and moms with BPD, there is no end game.

It's sad, but I think that many nonDads just want it all to be over, and so they keep walking into the same bad scenario because they believe it will get better, they were told they would grow up, marry beautiful wives, and have perfect kids... .  and it's easier to just get abused every few months than to self examine and set boundaries.

[tog]

My SO also still get abused and still argues with her. They do co-parenting counseling (GAH!) which he agrees to because the counselor is fair and she monitors all of their email communications, so he puts up with an hour of bullying, attack and blame for the peace he gets from no abusive emails.

I wish he could a) realize that she's mentally ill, is trying to engage him and NOT TAKE HER ATTACKS PERSONALLY and b) not argue back. I know it's all very hard and I can't imagine being in his shoes, but he does the same thing over and over again hoping for different results which is, of course, the definition of insanity.

Sometimes I think he can't let go either, but if I try to talk to him he gets defensive, so he'll have to figure it out on his own.

[Matt]

Here are some things I learned to do, when I was in post-divorce sessions with our "parenting coach"... .  

* Bring a notebook, and write down important things.  For example, if Ex says something that isn't true, write it down, word for word if possible.  Then when it's your turn, read it back, and state that it is not true, and give any evidence you can:  "A few minutes ago Ms. Ex said, 'On Saturday DH did such-and-such.'  I just want to make it very clear that I did not do such-and-such on Saturday or any other time.  I wasn't even with Ms. Ex on Saturday so there is no way she could have seen me do that, and I want everyone here to know that I have never done such-and-such.'  Now about the subject we were discussing... .  "

When she sees DH do that once or twice, she will realize that her lies will be quickly and effectively challenged, and she will quickly lose credibility with others present.  Of course it will be sad for SS18 to have to hear that, but it may be best even for him;  otherwise he will be confused by her lies and his relationship with DH will be hurt even more.

* At the start of the session, it might be good to ask for the floor, and propose some ground rules.  "To make sure this session is productive, I'd like to suggest some ground rules for us all.  First, let's not criticize those who aren't here to speak for themselves.  Second, let's let everyone here speak for themselves.  Third, let's make sure to let each person's view be heard and accepted."  Look to the moderator for approval of these ground rules, and if they are violated later in the meeting, look again to the moderator to enforce them - make eye contact with the moderator expectantly til she steps up, or even say, "Ms. Moderator, we agreed to a ground rule that we wouldn't criticize those who aren't here - can you please reinforce that now?"

* If it gets really bad, boundaries:  "I will not be spoken to in that way.  If I am spoken to that way again, this meeting will end, and I will take SS18 to a place where we won't hear that kind of talk."

What I'm suggesting is that DH step up and provide some leadership to the meeting, in cooperation with the moderator, as a condition for the meeting going forward - not confrontational, but in a professional, courteous way.

[DreamGirl]

NG, you (and Gagrl) always dash my dreams that it will all come to an end once the youngest turns 18.  

I think he secretly hopes that one day she will just stop being so awful.

I think this is the exact same kind of hope that all of us wives have, that someday our husband's will finally realize who and what their ex's are and are not.

We are just all practicing non-acceptance.  

I can't control the hubs. I inadvertantly try sometimes, and it usually doesn't play out very well.

So when I discuss/warn him of becoming overly-involved with her (helping her move/lending her money) and he makes a choice to do it anyways? He can reap the rewards without my over-involvement.

Sure, I support him, empathize, and validate... .  with my own boundary. "Gosh, it sucks that she was being such a brat. I hope that you're able to remember this next time. I also don't want to mull over it for the next three hours - so get it out and then we're letting it go."

I've reached a certain level of accpetance when it comes to my husband, and I say level because sometimes I still fight the fact that he has feelings of obligation when it comes to the Mama of his daughters. If I dissect it and place my own assessment of what is going on - I think that he believes taking care of his daughters means taking care of her (financially and emotionally sometimes). He tries to placate/help/enable her in hopes of minimizing the effects on the girls.

I don't know that your husband has the same kinds of thoughts - "If I listen to the barrage of what she throws at me, perhaps incorporate logic and reason where she is lacking, she'll reciprocate and that will have a good outcome. That, in essence, will help reduce the overall effects on the kids."

That effective negotiation skill (listen, talk, compromise) actually does work in my husband's life with other individuals (colleagues, me, his children) and it works with his ex-wife some of the time - because even the mother of my stepdaughters has lucid moments - and just like Pavlov's dogs, he has a conditioned response that his actions will reap the reward.

The problem is that it's hit and miss with her on any given day.

I try to have faith that each time, each disappointment, each moment of frustration is a stepping stone for him to accept her as a whole person - the good, the bad, the ugly. It's been 20 years though, I don't know that after all this time anything will change for him.

I do try to hand that over to him as part of his journey, not mine. I have a fairly decent acceptance of her - because it's a lot easier for me to do. I was never married to her and I didn't have three children with her so I really don't have an attachment to her OK-ness. He does and I can appreciate that.

In those moments though, where he walks into a situation fully equipped with knowledge, logic and good advice (like your hubs having the capablity not to have to be there) but instead he chooses to go with his emotions and tries to cooperatively solve situations with her when it's not really in anyone's best interest to do so... .  

I simply ask my therapist's favorite question "How's that working out for ya?"

 DreamGirl

[NorthernGirl]

NG, you (and Gagrl) always dash my dreams that it will all come to an end once the youngest turns 18.  

I think this is the exact same kind of hope that all of us wives have, that someday our husband's will finally realize who and what their ex's are and are not.

We are just all practicing non-acceptance.  

Thanks DreamGirl. You are so right about me practicing non-acceptance. I see the improvement that DH has made since I first met him and expect him to be further along, I guess. He used to take all her phone calls because he said it was about the children and then he'd let her scream at him. He allowed her in his house because she told him she needed access to her children at all times. He would go to her house and fix things or remove dead mice because she told him it was for the kids. He would never do any of those things now. So I need to be satisfied with how far he's come.

As to the 18 year old thing -- sorry about that! I knew we would have to help SS18 out for many years to come but didn't know about guardianship. I see now that it could tie DH to his ex forever, unless he gives up guardianship, fights for sole guardianship and wins, or SS18 is able to improve in his decision-making and no longer require guardianship. Thinking of him being tied to her forever makes me shiver. When we did our wills after getting married, we talked about what would happen if DH died first and I realized it could mean I'd be tied to her forever because DH wouldn't just want her managing all the money he would have in a trust for SS18. That makes me shiver even worse!

I try to be thankful for the good days. Like today. SS18 told DH this morning he really wants grad photos taken. I realized he is going to be so proud to finish high school. He will get a certificate because of his special needs rather than a diploma, but he could care less about the difference between the two. If we hadn't got SS18 back in school, he would never have had grad to look forward to. Now he can hardly wait to get handed his certificate. And he's even looking at going on to another program in the fall where he can try his hand at a couple different trades. Thank goodness for those victories. 

[ennie]

I am with DG on y'all doing damage to the "when they turn 18" fantasy!

I, too, struggle with my role in DH's way of relating to BPDmom.  :)H has mostly gone to only communicating in writing, and BPDmom eventually stopped calling, and mostly texts, sometimes emails.  This means I do not have to hear or know anything more than the ten "pings" of the multiple texts coming in if she is upset about something.  This is actually major progress with her, and proof that if you stick to your own boundary long enough, a BPD ex CAN learn!

I think that going through major custody litigation and then co-parenting counseling with DH (yes, the custody evaluator recommended I also attend) made me really consider what I want my role to be, and I was about to set some boundaries.  First, I did not want to be subjected to BPDmom's abuse, and so I communicated my boundaries to the counselor, and when she was not able to cut BPD off when she became abusive, after a few sessions I bowed out.  That felt great. I also think this was a good model for DH.  Second, I explored what I want to know about and what I do not.  I do not want to know about all the daily mean texts, but I DO want to know about and be involved (at least with DH) in major custody decisions, or anything that places us at legal of physical risk. Third, I realized that I do have some boundaries as to what happens in my space, and I needed to communicate them and insist on them with my husband.  He can communicate however he wants with her when he is not around me.  But I am not okay with us taking abusive phone calls; I am not okay with having to listen to my DH receive verbal abuse; and I am not okay with letting the kids be in charge of when dad talks to mom (mom would call and insist on talking to the kids, then get the kids to hand the phone to dad, so she could yell at him for 2 hours).  I cannot make DH do these things, but I explained that when he was on the receiving end of abuse, he became a less effective parent and also that he would treat me like I was being mean if I have boundaries, which was hard on our relationship.  He heard me, and we brainstormed about ways of making these changes.  He has pretty much stuck with this over the past year, and I am SO grateful.  

Finally, we have tried to define HOW I am involved in the few cases in which I have a direct role.  The idea is basically that if it is a big decision that impacts me, he will 1) take the lead and arrange to meet with me BEFORE any decision has been made or any suggestions have been made to BPDmom; 2) he will take the first cut at drafting a letter, or marking up the parenting plan, or whatever it is we are doing; 3) he will provide this draft to me 48 hours before the meeting if possible; 4) we will meet at least 3 days before his meeting/written communicate with BPDmom, so we have a chance to act on what he decides based on my input.  It is REALLY hard for DH to meet these deadlines because his way of dealing with BPD mom is to avoid conflict until the very last second, so it really is asking a lot to have him think about this in advance.  

This past time, he did set up a meeting, he did TRY to mark up the plan in advance but did not give himself enough time; he did set up a meeting 2 weeks in advance with me, but we cancelled and he did not set a new one so I did; he gave me his ideas in advance, but totally changed his mind by the time we met.  But it is getting better.  Each time, I explain to him that this is REALLY stressful for me, and that if I have advance planning, I am less stressed. I would say that in general DH is much better at boundaries with her, but that the communication between he and I on these matters in infrequent enough now that we needs more practice on our guidelines... .  

Last week, DH broke is person-to-person communication fast because BPD mom wanted a custody change (2week/2week now, she wanted to go to 1week/1week--still 50/50) and was threatening to go to court.  :)H stated that he was willing to negotiate after the holidays, using a mediator they had used in the past, and that he asked that she communicated her wants in specific edits to the parenting plan, and he would do the same, to be related to the other parent 24 hours before the meeting.  She REALLY wanted a change, and he was open to it... .  but there were a lot of little things about the plan that DH and  I noticed that were in conflict with the alternating week plan and that would need to be changed for the plan to be enforceable.  So DH gave her advanced recommended changes, she gave him a one line text saying she did not really see anything to change but the "week on thing", and she showed up at the meeting and blasted him for 2 hours about all the bad things he did during their marriage and how he ruined her life (this is the marriage that was over 7 years ago at her initiation).  The mediator tried really hard to get her to focus on the custody change she wanted, but BPD ex just could not do it, could nto even bring herself to ask for what she wanted.  So after the 2 hours, DH communicate that he knows BPD ex did the best she could, but he did not see any purpose in continuing to meet, as she could not voice a proposed change.  She started crying and blaming, but also blaming herself, saying "it is all my fault" and begging for more meetings.  :)H just said, "I really hope you do not beat yourself up about this.  The current schedule is working for the kids, and I know you did your best. But I am not willing to have more meetings on this topic, and I am not willing to continue to hear you blame me for things that are long past."  He did this with no anger, and genuine compassion for the fact that she really could not do what she set out to do; but still, firm boundaries.  

I was pretty proud of him.

But the next day, he got in a pretty significant auto accident--he is fine, but car is totaled.  I feel like negotiated with her, no matter how well he does, is really damaging to his sense of self, well being, concentration, and I wish he just would not do it.  That said, I think it is his choice.  But I do think it has been very good for me to define some boundaries with DH.  I am not willing to say "If you continue to take abuse, I will leave you," because I love him and do not want to leave, though that really is the only REAL power I have, as I cannot control him.  But I have learned this middle ground of letting him know what I want my space to be like, and let him know that letting BPD control the mood of our home is not alright with me, and I know it is not alright with him.  And he has respected the areas where I have been clear about that. 

[tog]

In my state CS goes until 21. Ponder that.  :'(

I need to learn that middle ground. I don't want to leave but I simply cannot have my life taken over by this person any longer. And I can't cope with the level of anger he feels towards her anymore. He's not the " give in and take care of my kid's mom" type, he's the "I should have hired hitmen 2 years ago" type. Boundaries are good and I need to find and keep them but I feel guilty when I do. But I can't fix this and I'm going to go crazy trying.

[ennie]

As a postscript to my post above, I want to say that while I ALWAYS find matt's suggestions to be GREAT, it is hard to read them and realize that to communicate these suggestions to DH is more controlling than I want to be at this point.

What I am often looking for is suggestions about how I deal with my value-driven boundaries when the person initiating the problem is not the one with whom I deal directly.  I cannot control my mate, and he needs to be able to feel what his boundaries are without me; at the same time, I think it is artificial to hold the line at "dealing with BPDex is HIS BUSINESS, and I have no role in it."  In truth, what she does and what he invites into our home has a profound impact on my life--indeed has been the major impact on my life in the past 6 years, and has radically changed my life and my sense of well being.  

So for me to make my own boundaries is good an healthy and reasonable, but they look more like, "I want to reduce my stress level and be more happy; can we brainstorm about ways to reduce the impact of BPDex on my life?" and after hearing from him, requesting "I would like for you to not take calls from BPD x in our home because when you do, I have to listen to you receive abuse and you are a less effective parent afterwords.  How would that work for you?" and it now rarely looks like, "Can you please bring a notebook to your mediation session?"  I used to relay all kinds of suggestions from this board to DH, and give him books and articles.  But he rarely reads them, and then THAT creates conflict between us.  So my eyes are more on the kinds of boundaries that are about me, and my relationship with him, rather than about his way of dealing with her.  

[ennie]

Tog--his your DH willing to see or seeing a therapist?  I find that when DH is angry and not sticking with his own boundaries, seeing a T often helps.  We have someone we have worked with as a couple who sees him, and sometimes I even request that he see her if he is spun out about his ex.  He also went to a 6 month grief group, which allowed him to see his grief over the abuse he received in his relationship with her, which allowed some of his anger to dissipate and turn into better boundaries.  But the biggest change in his anger (and self-blame) seems to me to be communicating almost always only in writing. He says "hi" at kids events, and is not rude, but no negotiations or conversations on the phone or in person without a third party, and as few of those as possible.  It is just too destructive to his sense of well being.

He tried counseling with her in marriage and at the end of their marriage and after divorce; he tried co-parenting counseling with a special program for high-conflict divorce; he has been to many mediations.  But it just is not effective, and leaves him feeling awful.  So he has mostly stopped.

[tog]

Me too, ennie, if you figure that out, let me know. My way to cope is to research and read and try to understand the problem. His is to focus on anything else possible OTHER than that, and he rarely reads anything I send him, and he rightfully gets upset when I try to control what he does.

But if I just stay out completely, I feel guilty and as if I'm not supporting him.

[tog]

Sorry, we crossed. He has seen a therapist a couple of times but he doesn't really utilize it well. And he's angry now because he has to see her in the co-parent counseling. Like yours, he does better if he has no contact beyond the superficial. The co-parent counselor is a double-edged sword.

[ennie]

Yes, sounds like we have similar dynamics, though DH does use the T well. I think the key for me is to realize that my way is different than his way about this stuff, and that while my way is good for keeping distance from BPD and other conflictual folk, I do not have much experience being in intimate relationships with crazy people, so his way may be more skilled.  I am also a major studier when dealing with stress... .  I want to learn, experiment, record the results.  DH wants to avoid, block it out.  I have had to learn more blocking it out over the years; he has been willing to learn to study a tiny but more. 

It is funny, because as I write this I realize that I have really been able to accept that we have different ways of dealing with the stress of BPD ex, and to stop needing him to deal with it my way--and that area of our lives has become far more peaceful.  But in areas that are more mutual--planning, dealing with money, etc.--I think I have become more stressed, feeling that in order to deal with the ordeal of BPDex, we have developed a strategy of dealing with things more independently that does not work as well with household stuff, and that has left me feeling frustrated. At least our issues these days are more about US, less about BPDex!

[tog]

I realize that too, that I could really benefit from his ability to compartmentalize and do something other than think about this situation. What I don't like is that his anger promotes reactions that aren't helpful to the situation, only make it worse, and I can't get him to see that.