Is it really all just an illness? How about personal responsibility?

[pessim-optimist]

Again, thank you everyone for your stories and input.   

MammaMia,

that is so encouraging that your son was able to listen AND hear about your past struggles from your staNPDoint!

Interesting that you say that in your experience pwBPD don't initiate much. Did you mean that they don't initiate difficult heart-to-heart discussions, or that they don't initiate in general?

As to the question whether they have ANY control, as we keep discussing, I am starting to think this:

If they are highly dysregulated, they probably don't have control.

If they are not dysregulated, they probably have some rudimentary control, like a small child would. What I mean, as little as a child understands about right/wrong and as little as a child understands the world of grownups, they sometimes consciously make the decision to do something mom has told them not to, and sometimes they make the conscious decision to obey, and sometimes that cookie-jar is just too tempting to make a conscious choice... .  

Maybe, if BPs are emotionally like little children, they might be like this in general? Sometimes choosing to do good, sometimes choosing to do bad, and sometimes just not able to help themselves?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[pessim-optimist]

Also, Kate4queen,

I thought about your post about your son being in his world of terrible struggle;

It is really heroic and awesome that he can sometimes try to realize what his impact is on others.

And when it just overwhelms him, it is understandable that he moves away from that.

I should probably clarify, what I meant in my original question and I would like to apologize if I hurt anyone's feelings: I definitely don't think that our BPs are evil. I think that they are our loved ones who are in terrible pain and need our help.

What I was wondering out loud in this forum was: If a healthy person can choose to do good or choose to do bad, so can sometimes probably a person with BPD? Their illness makes it harder on them and some of their actions seem like choices to do bad, when in fact they are just in a lot of pain and cannot do better. My wondering was about - can we ever tell the difference, between their maladaptive coping and an actual conscious decision to do bad?

[MammaMia]

pessim-optimist

What I meant is my BPD son does not like to initiate any type of emotional discussion nor does he seem to be able to help defuse turbulent situations or conversations.   Too much drama for him.

Maybe other pwBPD react differently.    


PS I believe BPD is evil... .  not those affected with it.

[qcarolr]

There is a lot of interpersonal neurobiological research writings coming to the forefront, and I find some reassurance with this. It so explains, for my analytical mind, how the workings of the systems in our human brain can get derailed and get blocked from 'working together'. Then the disturbing behaviors of our kids set us up to get blocked as well, and it just gets worse from there. And some new ideas for treatment will come out of this.

One of these is called the Conversational Method. It shifts the focus from the dysregulated behaviors (that DBT targets for managing these behaviors with some success), to working with the underlying root that this research seems to suggest. This is the 'self-triad' - self/identity, emptiness, and intolerance of aloneness. There is a disconnect in the bridge that links the thinking and feeling systems in the brain. Most likely based on developmental delays from real or perceived traumas as a young child and/or genetic based neurological development issues.

More research and trials of this method hopefuly will be coming - it makes so much sense to me. The disasterous behaviors are out of the pwBPD's conscious control much of the time. Tools can be learned to manage behaviors when life around the pwBPD is more stable and supportive. The underlying cause is still there.

When I finish the books I am working my way through I hope to start a converation here at bpdfamily.com for all of we parents. There is always hope, always. My DD is proof of this for me - lots and lots of accepting, forgiveness for myself and for her, and practicing practicing daily the tools to make things work better. So much of this is based on my taking care of my needs first - for feeling safe, having supportie r/s in my life, finding some joys for myself apart from being obsessed with my DD's needs (that I cannot fulfill anyway). As I do better, she does better. And even if she is not healing, I can.

qcr  

[MammaMia]

qcarolr


I for one will be here, and I look forward to your information.  Thank you!

[sunshineplease]

qcarolr, I read your post with great interest (and hope). The brain dysfunction Porr touches on in "Overcoming BPD" does seem a promising area for exploration. I have no doubt that what you described is exactly what happened to my ud17 daughter: ":)evelopmental delays from real or perceived trauma as a young child and/or genetic-based neurological development issues." That it's largely a brain structure problem ("wiring" and not a chemical imbalance would explain why, in the absence of comorbidity, SSRIs and other drugs tend not to work long-term (i.e., not to "cure" and practice-based models like DBT and CBT show promise. I'm very excited to hear about what you're reading. Any titles you're willing to share? 

[qcarolr]

There area four books I am currently trying to digest. I have read the two related to parenting with attachment issues. A caution in reading these - there is only a minor focus on aspergers, autism and other more 'organic' developmental causes for attachment problems. The therapy model disucssed here by Daniel Hughes and Kim Golding come from their work with foster and adoptive families. Most of it really applies to our grandkids for sure and often to our BPD kids too. I just got triggered a lot feeling "blamed" for all my DD26 problems. Also, these books were all published in 2012 - very current research based reading.

"Creating Loving Attachments: Parenting with PACE to Nurutre Confidence and Security in the Troubled Child", Kim Golding and Daniel Hughes [this book focuses on strategies to use with children]

"Brain-Based parenting: The Neuroscience of Caregiving for Healthy Attchment (Norton Series on Interpersonal Neurobiology)" Danile Hughes and Jonathan Baylin [this book focuses on how parents can improve their brain function to deal with their kids - the benefits of building reciprocal relationships]

The other two books I am digesting slowly I am only in the first chapters of. They are a bit more technical - I am scanning them first, then going back to study the areas of most interest. These are the ones with so much hope for new treatments for our BPD kids of all ages. They are based on work done in Sydney Australia - research and people based studies.

"A Dissociation Model of Borderline Personality Disorder" Russell Meares [clinical discussion of the theory and research]

"Borderline Personality Disorder and the Conversatoinal Model: A Clinician's Manual" Russell Maeres [ new 'self/psyche' focused therapy and comparity study with DBT controll group. VERY EXCITING]

Dr. Maeres has also written some other book - 2000, 2005 - which I have not reviewed yet.

I am hoping to start a workshop on all this when I can get myself through the books and organized. I will keep you posted.

qcr  

[OneSock]

Hi everyone - I haven't been on in awhile (I have been reading though) and felt the need to voice my thoughts in this thread as the title spoke to me.  I have wondered too about personal accountability.  I have also wondered if my UDS is just behaving like a spoiled child sometimes.  We have been going through the up and down roller coaster ride for about a year and half now, (I know some of you have been dealing with it for a lot longer and can't imagine how you get the strength).  We did manage to get our son in to be seen in the university mental health unit.  Once he walked through the doors we have had no information given to us regarding what his diagnosis may or may not be.  At one point our son came home and said that he was diagnosed with BPD.  He then seemed to wear the diagnosis with bravado.  Everything that was really rudeness, misbehaviour, anger was because of his "diagnosis".  He will talk to me at times but I have to be sure the moment is exactly right where he will receive as well input into of the conversation.  Most times though the hard stuff he just doesn't want to talk about.  We were trying to find out if he was in fact seeing a psychiatrist or a counselor, they offer both at the university.  We tried contacting the department but they would not tell us anything although they were the ones initially who told us how to get him seen.  Anyway, it turns out that he is seeing a P.  At one point he had told me he had one session left.  I was shocked at this as it was right on the heels of him telling me that he had been diagnosed.  I asked him how he could be given the diagnosis in one breath and the next is oh by the way you only have one further session.  It made no logical sense to me.  My UDS said well, I wasn't really diagnosed but I meet 5 to 7 out of the 9 factors so I could be. 

Things had been going along for a few weeks without any outbursts or incidents.  One evening a few weeks ago he asked for the car to go out.  There was a significant snowstorm going on so DH said no not tonight its not safe out there.  DS then stood right in front of husband screaming at him that he was a poor excuse for a father, he wished he were dead and that he hated him.  Such vile, vile words for him to be spewing.  I spoke quietly to him afterward and I said I can't force to to like or love your dad but he is still your dad and you have to respect him.  The reply was I don't have to respect anyone, he is a poor excuse for a father and he didn't teach me how to be a man.  He just sits there when I yell because he is so afraid of me.  I said, I can't force you to respect him but I will not tolerate you disrespecting either.  I also said to him that he had been doing so well that I am surprised at this. I also told him that perhaps his dad didn't react because he would be too angry so rather than screaming back at him he says nothing. He did say yes he was disappointed in himself, but that he did indeed hate him.  He went out for a walk and came back and talked to me again.  I went to speak with my husband and was going to relay the talk I had had with our UDS.  Hubby was so angry he started yelling at me.  I just walked away.  A couple of days later on the drive home from work I spoke to my husband and told him the talk we had had.  He did apologize for taking it out on me and he said it was because he was so angry.  He also is afraid that if he were to react that the relationship would be forever broken.  He also said he was shocked by what was being screamed at him.

It's been 3 weeks now and they don't speak to each other. The reason I wonder sometimes if this is spoiled teenage acting out is that the trigger for this was saying no to having the car.

I am winding down reading the book "Get Me Out of Here" and could see Rachel having some of the same triggers. 

Our UDS has informed me that he will not be returning to university next year but taking a year off because he doesn't know what he wants to do so why waste his time.  He has also said he is moving out once this school year is over, end of April.  I am saddened by this as he is such a smart person but just settling to be mediocre.  He also says the field he is studying is too boring and if he wanted to he could Ace all of his classes but that he is just not interested. I am convinced he doesn't got to many of them anyway.

I believe I have gotten way off course here so will wind this up.

Take good care all of you and sorry about the long winded response.

 OneSock

[Kate4queen]

Also, Kate4queen,

I thought about your post about your son being in his world of terrible struggle;

It is really heroic and awesome that he can sometimes try to realize what his impact is on others.

And when it just overwhelms him, it is understandable that he moves away from that.

I should probably clarify, what I meant in my original question and I would like to apologize if I hurt anyone's feelings: I definitely don't think that our BPs are evil. I think that they are our loved ones who are in terrible pain and need our help.

What I was wondering out loud in this forum was: If a healthy person can choose to do good or choose to do bad, so can sometimes probably a person with BPD? Their illness makes it harder on them and some of their actions seem like choices to do bad, when in fact they are just in a lot of pain and cannot do better. My wondering was about - can we ever tell the difference, between their maladaptive coping and an actual conscious decision to do bad?

My son isn't aware of the BPD diagnosis that has been privately shared with us on a number of occasions by various professionals-(well as far as I know he isn't aware of it, he might be but has chosen not to share that with us). He used to say he was trying to control his rages etc but it was hard for him, so at some level he was aware of what that rage did to our family. I really think that in his emotional pain he is prepared to say anything at that moment to make you feel as bad as he does. I don't think he's being manipulative at that point. But when he calms down and does something quite deliberately to hurt us, then I question whether he is making a deliberately manipulative decision. he doesn't see it as being 'bad' per se, just as protecting himself.

I do think that in the future he might be a good candidate for specific BPD therapies, because if he sets his mind on something, he will achieve it and those glimpses of his understanding that something is terribly wrong give me hope.

but he'll have to take responsibility for that. I can't.

[qcarolr]

My son isn't aware of the BPD diagnosis that has been privately shared with us on a number of occasions by various professionals-(well as far as I know he isn't aware of it, he might be but has chosen not to share that with us). He used to say he was trying to control his rages etc but it was hard for him, so at some level he was aware of what that rage did to our family. I really think that in his emotional pain he is prepared to say anything at that moment to make you feel as bad as he does. I don't think he's being manipulative at that point. But when he calms down and does something quite deliberately to hurt us, then I question whether he is making a deliberately manipulative decision. he doesn't see it as being 'bad' per se, just as protecting himself.

I do think that in the future he might be a good candidate for specific BPD therapies, because if he sets his mind on something, he will achieve it and those glimpses of his understanding that something is terribly wrong give me hope.

but he'll have to take responsibility for that. I can't.

I too struggle with my DD26's intention abilities. A lot of her behaviors do come from a self-protective place - some of it in her awareness and lots of outside of any awareness that she has. She was given the BPD dx after neuropsych testing age 23 -- added to her long list of other acronyms. This made so much sense to me, struggling with so much ineffectively for so many years. She labels herself as depressed and anxious, and she accepts her NVLD (non-verbal learning disabililty similar to Aspergers' Syndrome) and ADD. As things have imporved between us over past year or so, she has begun to share things with me that give some insight into this - a hard balance for her to accept when her actions create the results. Feels so much 'safer' for her to blame others, dissociate from the painful emotions, take her mind numbing meds (both rx and mmj).

I hear so many of your replies here working to keep the connection open with your BPDkids. For me, once I got my own needs met and out of the way, this was the next most important step. Valerie Porr gives some great strategies in her book "Overcoming BPD" for building this connection.

qcr  

[heronbird]

 

I have just learnt all about mindfulness and mentalisation. So I understand if a person with BPD is not mentalising they become dysregulated and situations spiral out of control.

You know its like when we say the wrong thing in the heat of the moment.

We all do things we regret in the heat of the moment.

PwBPD are even more extreem than us.

It is an illness, it is classed as a serious mental health illness.

If my dd remembers doing any bad behaviours she feels terribly bad and says she was just immature and stupid. She feels shame, and that must be horrible

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[pessim-optimist]

Thank you for all your opinions and stories. I will have to really take some time to digest all the information.

I am so grateful for all of you here. That we can share and talk things over and look at our situations from different angles.

Thank you so much again and, please keep posting if you think of anything more on the topic.

 

[radioguitarguy]

After reading all of the responses to P-O's question, all I can say is WOW! Each time I read the posts in this specific message board, I'm always looking for a situation that comes close to what my ds28 is going through. I think P-O's question hits upon all of our BPD's. It's a question I've asked myself over and over again... .  

Our ds28 has been out on his own since Thanksgiving. We're talking about a guy who's gone through a 7 month DBT intensive outpatient program, therapy, back on meds, a suicide attempt, and who knows what else that he he hasn't told us about. This kid is not "school smart" but he is "street smart". He's the kind of person that after talking with him for awhile, you would say, "What's the problem, he's a great guy!"  He's funny, engaging, he listens, he writes his own music and lyrics. But if you should say something negative to him, watch out! He has a hair trigger temper depending what kind of mood he's in.

I apologize for rambling but I always seem to come back to the boards when he lands "himself" into another crisis. In this case he's been kicked out of his present living/couch surfing situation. I don't know why, and I'm not asking, but if I was to speculate, he said or did something that honked off the "friend" he was staying with. This brings to mind another question... .  are your BPD's always looking for someone to save them? His last living situation ended when he got into a shouting match with his room mates best friend because she said something he didn't want to hear.

And it goes round and round. It's never going to stop, is it? Good news! He got a part time job in a warehouse about 25 hours a week that starts up at the end of the month. How long will that last... .  2 days... .  2 weeks? If he can tolerate the job, it will last until he becomes annoyed with someone he's working with, an angry exchange will take place, and he'll be fired. This has happened so often through the years yet I still feel guilty for my way of thinking.

Soo, to get back to the original point, "Is it really all just an illness? How about personal responsibility?"... .  I think most of it is because their brains are wired differently. I've seen the diagram in some of the BPD literature. Now that he's off on his own without mom and dad to save him everytime, will he learn that his behavior keeps getting him fired from jobs and living situations. I don't know. And you know it is painful to watch it happen! Can he not help himself? I thought that's what he learned in his IOP. I know of some people who end up "taking care" of their BPD whether it's letting them live in their home or supporting them out of the home. Am I selfish because I don't want to decimate my retirement savings to support my ds28? His mom and I have done everything we can to give him the tools he needs to help himself. Will that be enough? If he eventually decides to call this life quits, how does a parent handle the unbearable grief and guilt?

Well aren't I just a rambling ray of sunshine on this Friday! Where's that "BOOK" that will tell me what chapter to turn to, to make everything right? It's never going to happen so "thank God" we all have each other on bpdfamily!

Love You All!

RG