Anyone split without the high conflict?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

So far so good,

Realized over a month ago that my SO has BPD/possible NPD (only 15 years later!) and immediately found a great therapist who in turn recommended a great lawyer who understands PD divorce cases and like myself would like to avoid the drama of TROs, long drawn out court cases, etc., and hopes to work out a settlement with my stbx. Here are the points:

- I want custody of our 3 kids. Stbx, who is not a US citizen, does not wish to raise the kids in her home country and would be fine with visits. Kids cannot visit stbx's country because recent visa law changes require them to temporarily chafe nationality, which of course I would never agree to. She can come here to us once a year, I may even foot the bill for air tickets.

- We have assets here and abroad and a recent liquidated asset that I'd give to my stbx as a carrot of sorts to do the right thing.

-I keep the house, keep paying the mortgage, while stbx goes back to her country and can either stay in our overseas house or sell it, whatever she wants.

While my stbx is not aware yet of my intentions, she has been hinting at "hypotheticals" along the lines listed above. What I want to know is has anybody gotten through a low-conflict split, for the sake of the kids, especially? Really hoping for this, but preparing for an emotional tsunami!

[Furuma3]

So far so good,

Realized over a month ago that my SO has BPD/possible NPD (only 15 years later!) and immediately found a great therapist who in turn recommended a great lawyer who understands PD divorce cases and like myself would like to avoid the drama of TROs, long drawn out court cases, etc., and hopes to work out a settlement with my stbx. Here are the points:

- I want custody of our 3 kids. Stbx, who is not a US citizen, does not wish to raise the kids in her home country and would be fine with visits. Kids cannot visit stbx's country because recent visa law changes require them to temporarily chafe nationality, which of course I would never agree to. She can come here to us once a year, I may even foot the bill for air tickets.

- We have assets here and abroad and a recent liquidated asset that I'd give to my stbx as a carrot of sorts to do the right thing.

-I keep the house, keep paying the mortgage, while stbx goes back to her country and can either stay in our overseas house or sell it, whatever she wants.

While my stbx is not aware yet of my intentions, she has been hinting at "hypotheticals" along the lines listed above. What I want to know is has anybody gotten through a low-conflict split, for the sake of the kids, especially? Really hoping for this, but preparing for an emotional tsunami!

[tog]

I don't think many on this board have (that's why we are here!) but I'm sure elsewhere they have. Most likely, if she has some reason she wants out (another guy, perhaps) she will not make it as difficult on you as if you are initiating it or there is no new man in her life.

See Fultus' thread about how his wife has been agreeable all along and now a few days before they are ready to pull the trigger she has begun obstructing.

In my SO's case, his uN/BPDstbxw agreed to a settlement for 50/50 and then 2 months later filed for sole custody, reopening the whole settlement and provoking another expensive round of court hearings.  They are still not divorced after almost 2 years because she keeps finding a way to block it even though she claims she wants it. So with someone with BPD, there is rarely a finality to the situation.

[Matt]

I think at the emotional level, if one party has BPD, and isn't in treatment, there will almost certainly be some conflict and chaos.

But some here go through the divorce process - the legal aspect - pretty smoothly.

One key will be to find an attorney who has experience dealing with an opposing party with BPD or similar problems.  That means being prepared for bad behavior on the other side and knowing how to deal with it.

Another key is to have a backup plan which requires no cooperation from the other side - a way to finish the divorce even if the other side does not bargain in good faith.  That's more expensive and it takes longer, but having that plan - and being willing to execute it - is what may bring the other side to the table.  Many of us settled "on the courthouse steps" - that is, shortly before trial - I settled the day before the trial was scheduled - because that's when the disordered party realizes they better settle or risk consequences if the case goes to trial.

William A. Eddy's book "Splitting" and his web site, www.highconflictinstitute.com, are both very helpful.

[Furuma3]

Almost done with Splitting- it does shed a lot of light on how BPDs work the legal system!

With that in mind, I'm trying to do everything in my power to avoid a trial, but be ready with that backup plan. I've contacted counselors in the kids' schools about my stbx and it has shed some light (and created some evidence) about her physical and verbal abuse of both me and the kids. Got some phone video yesterday of her hitting, scratching and swearing at me while our son was in the back seat of the car. Don't want to go on the offensive but need to prepare for the worst!

She seems to care only about the $, not so much the kids (which is fine by me, I'll make more $) but this could all be a ruse.

Bracing for impact- thanks for all the advice and support!

[Forestaken]

I got 2 kidneys, I believe she's claiming she deserves one.

[livednlearned]

Excellent that you already have an L who understands PDs. Has he or she managed many cases like yours? Are you confident that it's not just lip service?

It might help that your W has strong narcissistic traits. "Help" is a relative word in our world, but, well, you know what I mean. My L played ex's narcissism like a fiddle during his deposition and then ate him for lunch.

I agree with Matt -- have a good plan and stay on track. Be assertive about what's best for the kids no matter what, and read everything you can about the psychological warfare. She may do a lot of damage to them while this plays out. Don't Alienate the Kids (also by Bill Eddy) is good, and the other one always mentioned here is Divorce Poison by Richard Warshak. Her instinct to win is probably going to head into overdrive once lawyers get involved and she starts feeling cornered, and often that means the kids become a major battleground. Prepare for that with the same determination and conviction that you prepare for the divorce. It will pay off.

[Matt]

Don't Alienate the Kids (also by Bill Eddy) is good, and the other one always mentioned here is Divorce Poison by Richard Warshak.

Eddy's web site also has a bunch of good stuff:  www.HighConflictInstitute.com.

Warshak's book is mostly about "parental alienation" - not a term that some judges like to hear - but it's very common for one or both parents to try to turn the kids against the other parent (and usually against the other parent's family too).  Warshak's book is a good description of how that works and how to keep it from happening.

[sanemom]

My dh's split with his ex was pretty low-conflict.  She didn't want to have the kids--it was too much work--so she was fine leaving everything and the kids with him.  It wasn't until the kids got older and easier that she started increasing the conflict and trouble. 

So just because you get out of the first court battle with low-conflict, don't expect it to be the last if you have kids.

[ForeverDad]

Almost done with Splitting- it does shed a lot of light on how BPDs work the legal system!

With that in mind, I'm trying to do everything in my power to avoid a trial, but be ready with that backup plan.

Strange, how much we fear a trial.  Yes, there are risks, the judge may or may not rule as we want and it is expensive.  But sometimes, as in my case, a looming trial can be potent leverage to give incentive to a realistic settlement.  No more stalling or pressuring tactics, no more delays, obstruction, obfuscation, etc.

Strange how a trial can be viewed as a sort of looming boundary... .  ex can act out, deny reality, feel entitled, demand the moon (and both kidneys), whatever, but it ends there.

I recall when I arrived at the court house for Trial Day some 2 years into the divorce and was greeted with the news then-stbx was ready to settle.  In other words, she had to admit she could not delay or obstruct any more.  I didn't like the idea, I was mentally prepared for trial, but everyone looked for me to agree and so I spoke with her.  I said, "We can do Shared Parenting but I'll be Residential Parent."  To me that was my Line in the Sand.  She begged, even shed tears, but I simply said, "It's that or we start the trial."  For the first time in years, I had the leverage and somehow didn't fumble the ball.  I walked out as Residential Parent in the agreement.

[Matt]

Strange how a trial can be viewed as a sort of looming boundary... .  ex can act out, deny reality, feel entitled, demand the moon (and both kidneys), whatever, but it ends there.

I think one reason is that many attorneys don't want to go to trial.  They may not have experience going to trial, and they may think they will look bad if they can't arrange a settlement.

If the other party has BPD or BPDish behaviors, it's important to find an attorney who isn't afraid of going to trial.  It's sensible to try to avoid that expense, but you're more likely to get a good settlement without trial, if you're well-prepared - emotionally and in practical terms - to go to trial if needed.

[livednlearned]

Strange how a trial can be viewed as a sort of looming boundary... .  ex can act out, deny reality, feel entitled, demand the moon (and both kidneys), whatever, but it ends there.

I think one reason is that many attorneys don't want to go to trial.  They may not have experience going to trial, and they may think they will look bad if they can't arrange a settlement.

If the other party has BPD or BPDish behaviors, it's important to find an attorney who isn't afraid of going to trial.  It's sensible to try to avoid that expense, but you're more likely to get a good settlement without trial, if you're well-prepared - emotionally and in practical terms - to go to trial if needed.

Judges also don't want to see you go to trial. They prefer that you come up with your own terms -- you're adults, that's how they view it, and they want you to come up with your own rules of engagement that you get to follow. Judges believe that if you both agree, it will be a better outcome than if a judge weighs in.

Which sounds pretty rosy, unless you have a BPD sufferer on your hands. Then family court gets weird fast.

[Matt]

Judges also don't want to see you go to trial. They prefer that you come up with your own terms -- you're adults, that's how they view it, and they want you to come up with your own rules of engagement that you get to follow. Judges believe that if you both agree, it will be a better outcome than if a judge weighs in.

Which sounds pretty rosy, unless you have a BPD sufferer on your hands. Then family court gets weird fast.

Very true.

I think my case was reasonably typical in this regard.  Total time:  20 months.  We settled 24 hours before the trial was scheduled, and the settlement was all worked out by my wife and me, and our attorneys, with recommendations from a Custody Evaluator I requested.  So the judge just rubber-stamped everything after we agreed.

We could have settled along the same lines a year earlier at much lower cost.  But what got the settlement accomplished was getting the trial date set.  I asked for an earlier one;  my wife wanted a later one (probably just to fight me over it), and the court gave us one in-between.  If our trial date had been a month earlier or later, we would have settled a month earlier or later.

[Allure]

I divorced my ex without a lawyer and took 6 months only because of the required wait time. I did all the paperwork including parenting agreement and asset division. The only time I had to go to court was when he did not pay his child support for one year and I went to the Attorney General. So entire divorce costed me less than <$500.00

No drama after.

I do not understand all these fights between divorcing couples and post divorced couples.

IMO, If you are still fighting after, the marriage was not over when you divorced. If one of you is still using the children to engage, then that person is not over the marriage yet.

But maybe, that is the problem with BP people... .  Nothing is ever over   

[minkmink]

I am fortunate that the attorney I found actually even knows about BPD. He had taken a course on high conflict situations and BPD people was on the list. This course was given by the Bar Association. Which I think is amazing that the legal field is working to understand how mental illness can effect the process of the divorce.

The one thing that I did, and I will admit it was not easy, I kept a VERY rational level head when emailing, telephoning and speaking with his staffor the attorney. I am positive that they were deciding whether I was a "nut" along with or other than my h.

My attorney commented that high conflict people pick low conflict people to get married too, then the low conflict party finally gives in the towel and files for divorce. That's me.

But really, keep your head when speaking with anyone in the court system. Or they will do a knee jerk and think you are just as bad as the person you are divorcing. I see it as kinda preconcieved notion that if a person marries someone that is so un-rational that they must be just the same. Water finds its own level so to speak. We know this not to be true, although most of us do have issues either that brought us to the marriage (which in my case was an over-riding need to rescue people) or will definitely have issues from the chaos of the marriage partner and situation itself.

For some reason my h wants to work out a settlement. His attorney has suggested that each of us take $7500 to pay our bills over the next few months while we are settling this thing out. Sometime next week I will recieve the first settlement offer. We are also going to go to a court hearing... .  because as my attorney says he wants the judge to tell the h he is not allowed to disapate assets or leave the country (he is a dual citizen of another country). That says alot right there. My attorney is going straight to the "balls" of the matter. My h is terrified of the court system so it may help to see the judge. One can only hope.

All being said, my doctor husband is unemployed again. So I have to get out ASAP or he just sit and eat up all our assets. I am dying to hear what he says as to why he can't find any work. Again.

Well, good luck to you. I am of the belief that the h has found an admirer. So maybe I am not so much on his radar right now. Oh, and I am in school so I am covered.

Mink

thanks to all of you that counseled me to keep a cool head. it has worked so far. BTW... .  I have the dog and am waiting to see how the judge is going to deal with this.

[Furuma3]

Thanks for the input, everyone!

Getting a better idea of how to get ready for when the other shoe drops.

My L has experience with BPD (she represented both sides of the spectrum in family court) and a mom who is a mental health professional (and friends with my T), so I consider myself blessed. My T has seen my stbx in all her dysfunctional glory this week, and is willing to work with me to "surgically" remove the dysfunction from the family. Not bad so far... .  

My stbx, after snooping on my unprotected phone (DOH!) found texts between my sister and myself venting about her screaming, hitting, poor mothering, etc. and she hit the roof! Got the phone before she got to the REALLY damning stuff (voice memos and video), and password protected. Between yelling, crying and accusing me of cruel treatment she did mention the possibility of a separation. She just got back from her home country (Korea) 2 weeks ago after 6 weeks there, and she's already proposing going back! Leave me with our 3 kids (not a problem) and go back to meeting friends in the cafe and going to the movies. Granted, this may just be an attempt to feel out my attitude and commitment to the marriage (which is at an all-time low), but another 4-6 weeks without her would not be the worst thing.

My question is this: although you do not know the exact specifics of my situation, do those of you who are on the other side feel the separation would help give me time to prepare my case and most importantly restore some sanity, or do you think going ahead and pulling the trigger on the marriage would save long drawn out negotiations and anguish?

Just looking for $0.02 where I can get it! Thanks.

[Allure]

The former would be better in my opinion and then email her your intentions while she is there so she can process it.

First and foremost, protect yourself and do not go anywhere outside United States for now.

Just my honest opinion.

[ForeverDad]

On the positive side, she is not super possessive of the children.  That is a real positive, most of us here have had the conflict due to our ex spouses - whether the dad or the mom - having a history of possessive entitled behaviors regarding the children.  Of course, there's no guarantee that particular beast won't appear, but it could be an indicator of less conflict.

On your side is a long history of majority parenting.  Even so, it's not a slam dunk because you have the double whammy of (1) courts typically assume mother gets kids by default and (2) disordered parents can initially be so very emotionally convincing.

Yes, she may sense that the end is near and if so then she's naturally hinting at the things she's interested in.  If roles were reversed you'd likely indicate what you want to walk away with, so her hinting is not surprising.  However, we typically here suggest you don't make your 'best' offer first.  What usually happens is that the first offer is renegotiated over and over.  If you start with your best offer, then guess who will get short changed?

On the other hand, you don't want to be unreasonably impossible.  Aim to be somewhat reasonable when dealing but definitely hold back some things that you figure she wants.  Then when she gets them later she may feel she 'won'.  'Winning' is important to them, even if it really wasn't a win as far as we're concerned.

Also, if you're thinking of being super fair, beware, keep in mind that you will have a lot of parenting expenses in the years to come (clothes, cars, college tuitions, health insurance, etc) that will likely turn out to be much more expensive than you figured.  Not to mention that it's impossible to predict with any certainty your financial situation for the next 10~15 years.  Keep some reserves for the future since it sounds like if there's an agreement she won't be paying child support.

Try to do the near impossible, being balanced between avoiding triggering her overmuch versus not appeasing her.

In the divorce try to wrap up all the loose ends.  Don't keep jointly owned property.  One should sign over a quit claim deed and the other should refinance (so deed and mortgage both reflect proper ownership and liability) or else it should be sold and the proceeds split between you two somehow.

Even lawyers make mistakes.  In cases like ours they are quick to minimize potential problems down the road.  Fro example, if the order states exchanges are at "mutually agreed" times and locations, well, what do you do when your then ex decides that her demands are what you two have agreed?  Yes, the bulldozer effect.  You need a parenting order that can't be easily reinterpreted at her every whim and mood.

Really hoping for this, but preparing for an emotional tsunami!

Prepare for the worst but hope for the best!

[minkmink]

I may be completely off board here, but if she wants to go back to her home country, even for a little bit, I would encourage this. then when she is off doing her thing just keep moving kids, money, etc into your name and then when she starts sqauking then give her some money until you have secured home, finances and doors that she cannot enter. Stop treaing her as a person, she is a person that will hurt you and your children. I really apologize at this point for making her out to be less than what you can consider. That being said. Yes, it is already high conflict.

You just don't know it yet.

Secure the battle stations. Speed ahead.

With God Speed. Warp.

Mink

[minkmink]

Oh, and only apply for divorce when she has left the country and when that has happened file for divorce and look to not allowing her back in the country. Agree to the overseas property and take the kids.

in my very humble opinion.

Its you or her and your kids. Who do you fight for now. Or do you still want this marriage. Sounds like you just maybe do. Its OK it took me two marriages to the same H and now two divorces, one in the works now for me to finally convince me he was ot the not the man of my dreams, soul mate and on and on.

I am really sorry. It sucks enough when there are no children. Which, right now I am grateful that I did not have with this person.

But to have children... .  well, it must be the most god awful place to be.

Just take the kids. If she wants to see them, help them, care for them day to day... .  well, that can be arranged always once you have secured the stations.

Mink

The very fact that she is saying that she would give up her children is, IMO, a play to play you. Let her go home to the house in the other country. Then when she is gone put your plan in place.

[Furuma3]

Thanks Mink (and everyone),

This kind of mirrors my thinking on the whole situation. Things came to a head 2 days ago- breaking boundaries, screaming, pushing, scratching (her, not me!). Almost called the police, but we're in a small town where that kind of stuff goes right in the news and can affect career, etc. Oh yeah, my monster-in-law is also staying with us until summer and she was right there breaking the boundaries, too! Not a great situation.

Anyway, my family, friends, even my T are saying pull the plug ASAP, but I'm hanging in until she and her mom do go back to Korea, I can regroup and "surgically" end the r/s. She knows she's lost her sway over me and is trying to play nice, lull me back into old ways (i.e.- control me).

Staying strong, though! What a ride!

[Jai Yen]

Furuma3:

My situation is similar to yours. Mine stbx uN/BPD is from Japan. She now lives and works in Japan. She's lived away from our D17, S16 and me for going on 5 years- blissful years when she's not around - nearly impossible when she is.

Early this month she came back to visit. When she arrived I had her served with the divorce papers and an order of protection. It was one of the hardest things I've ever done. My mind thought through all the possible nightmare outcomes. Fortunately, she got it together because I set up conditions so she could - a mutual friend to explain the situation, I reserved and paid for her hotel, controlled access to the kids, and a no contact order with me other than by email.

She was due back for 3 weeks and left after 10 days. We made rapid progress in 10 days. She retained an L so now our Ls can communicate. We also agreed to maintain our mutual business that relies on both of us and had a meeting with our business L. We also went to a divorce T. The next step is division of assets but the hardest part is over.

I would recommend that you serve her before she returns to her country. I thought of getting my stbx (or now ex?) served in Japan. I found out it would have been a nightmare. She could have retained an L over there and filed over there. I would then have to fight her partially over there. Not good. She got served her in the US so our laws apply. Also, be carefully with custody issues. Japan is notorious for screwing foreigners out of their ability to even visit the kids should the Japanese wife take them back there and decide she wants you out of the picture. Fortunately, now my kids are old enough to decide who they want to live with. Formulate a plan and stick to it. You might think about getting an order of protection to give you some room to maneuver.