When They Take Pleasure In Your Pain

[Parents! Get help here!]

Hi,

I was wondering if other people here have BPD children who enjoy seeing you in emotional pain. 

One thing that I've really started to notice lately with my BPD/DD16 is that she takes great pleasure in saying things that she knows will hurt me.  She definitely screams those types of things when she is in a rage.  But the ones that take me completely off-guard are the ones that she says to me when we are getting along really well.

For example, the other day I came home from work and BPD/DD16 was waiting for me at the door with this huge smile on her face.  She asked me about my day, and was very sweet, and I was so happy seeing her in such a good mood.  And then she started telling me about her current boyfriend, and how he told her he would have no problem severely beating her if she didn't do what he wanted.  And then she proceeded to say, in a very sweet and happy voice, "I thought of calling you at work to tell you this, but I waited until you came home because I really wanted to see the look of pain and shock and hurt on your face!" 

Needeless to say, I was shocked at her words, and at how she wanted to actually see my painful reaction to what she said.  So I made sure I was unemotional, and I said "That doesn't really surprise me about him."  And I did not address her statement about wanting to see the look of pain on my face.

Another example just happened this past weekend.  My DH, and my BPD/DD16, and myself, were all watching a comedy show on tv, and we were all getting along great, and laughing and everyone was in a great mood.  And then my BPD/DD16 turned to me, and laughingly said that she had an awesome idea for an April Fools Day joke, but that she was so excited over it that she couldn't hold it in, and so she wanted to tell me about it now. 

So I was laughing and said, "Ok, let me hear it!  I can't wait to hear what you have planned!"  And I was thinking of what type of silly little thing would she be planning.  And I was happy that we were having such a nice time.

So she turned to me and said "I wanted to wait until April, but I can't.  So for April Fools Day I plan on telling you that I'm pregnant!  And I can't wait to see the shock and horror and pain on your face when I tell you!  I couldn't wait until then, so I'm telling you now!  It's just so much fun thinking of me telling you that, and you flipping out!"  And she was saying it so excitedly. 

And the shock of her getting so much much pleasure from even thinking of my pain, literally felt like she slapped me across the face.  And I didn't want to escelate the situation into some sort of fight, so I calmly said "I don't really think that would be very funny."  And her reply was "It would be hilarious!"

I always try not to respond in an emotional way when she says these things.  And it's really hard, and it causes me a lot of pain to see the pleasure she gets from it.  So after she left the room, I cried, but she did not know this.

And if she said those things while in a rage, then I could understand that she may not be thinking clearly at the moment, and just wanted to lash out.  But to say them when things are going well, and she's all happy and cheerful, it confuses me.  And to see her get such pleasure and satisfaction from it really hurts.  And she never comes back later to ever apologize.  So I don't really think that she ever has any remorse over those things.

So I guess I was wondering if any of you here have things like that happen with your BPD children, and how do you respond.  Thank you so much for your replies.  I sincerely appreciate it.

[BrownEyes]

Hi,

I was wondering if other people here have BPD children who enjoy seeing you in emotional pain. 

One thing that I've really started to notice lately with my BPD/DD16 is that she takes great pleasure in saying things that she knows will hurt me.  She definitely screams those types of things when she is in a rage.  But the ones that take me completely off-guard are the ones that she says to me when we are getting along really well.

For example, the other day I came home from work and BPD/DD16 was waiting for me at the door with this huge smile on her face.  She asked me about my day, and was very sweet, and I was so happy seeing her in such a good mood.  And then she started telling me about her current boyfriend, and how he told her he would have no problem severely beating her if she didn't do what he wanted.  And then she proceeded to say, in a very sweet and happy voice, "I thought of calling you at work to tell you this, but I waited until you came home because I really wanted to see the look of pain and shock and hurt on your face!" 

Needeless to say, I was shocked at her words, and at how she wanted to actually see my painful reaction to what she said.  So I made sure I was unemotional, and I said "That doesn't really surprise me about him."  And I did not address her statement about wanting to see the look of pain on my face.

Another example just happened this past weekend.  My DH, and my BPD/DD16, and myself, were all watching a comedy show on tv, and we were all getting along great, and laughing and everyone was in a great mood.  And then my BPD/DD16 turned to me, and laughingly said that she had an awesome idea for an April Fools Day joke, but that she was so excited over it that she couldn't hold it in, and so she wanted to tell me about it now. 

So I was laughing and said, "Ok, let me hear it!  I can't wait to hear what you have planned!"  And I was thinking of what type of silly little thing would she be planning.  And I was happy that we were having such a nice time.

So she turned to me and said "I wanted to wait until April, but I can't.  So for April Fools Day I plan on telling you that I'm pregnant!  And I can't wait to see the shock and horror and pain on your face when I tell you!  I couldn't wait until then, so I'm telling you now!  It's just so much fun thinking of me telling you that, and you flipping out!"  And she was saying it so excitedly. 

And the shock of her getting so much much pleasure from even thinking of my pain, literally felt like she slapped me across the face.  And I didn't want to escelate the situation into some sort of fight, so I calmly said "I don't really think that would be very funny."  And her reply was "It would be hilarious!"

I always try not to respond in an emotional way when she says these things.  And it's really hard, and it causes me a lot of pain to see the pleasure she gets from it.  So after she left the room, I cried, but she did not know this.

And if she said those things while in a rage, then I could understand that she may not be thinking clearly at the moment, and just wanted to lash out.  But to say them when things are going well, and she's all happy and cheerful, it confuses me.  And to see her get such pleasure and satisfaction from it really hurts.  And she never comes back later to ever apologize.  So I don't really think that she ever has any remorse over those things.

So I guess I was wondering if any of you here have things like that happen with your BPD children, and how do you respond.  Thank you so much for your replies.  I sincerely appreciate it.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[lbjnltx]

Hello Brown Eyes,

So very sorry to read this and I can only imagine the pain such hurtful words and intentions cause you. :'(

These seem like extreme behaviors since they occur outside of impulsive rage episodes.  They  may fall into the negative attention seeking behaviors that so many BPD adolescents engage in.  And/or the projection of their inner pain and turmoil onto others... .  getting others to feel their feelings for them, think of them as they think of themselves... .  worthless, not deserving respect, protection or a good life.

Does your d have a therapist that you can communicate with?

 

lbjnltx

[crazedncrazymom]

Wow!  I think my dd15 also gets some amount of satisfaction when she tells me something hurtful but she has never been that blatant in your face about it.  I can't even imagine how sick it makes you feel to hear your dd say such things.  If you are in therapy I suggest you bring it up with the therapist present.  My dd used to bring up going to foster care since I expect her to follow my ridiculous rules.  Eventually I told her to knock it off or she would get a consequence for disrespecting me.  That worked and she stopped.

I'm so sorry you're going through such a trying time with her.  I wish I could give more advice but I got nothing.

Best of luck!

[Kate4queen]

wow, that's horrible.

I found with my son that he would casually drop horrible things and vague threats into calm conversations just to see how I reacted. I think he wanted a reaction because it helped him deal with his pain and brought me down with him. Some of the worst things he ever did were done in his 'calmer' moments, so you aren't alone.

It sounds like you are dealing with it face to face very well, but I also hope you have a therapist or someone you can share your pain with because over time, those kinds of remarks can really destroy your self esteem and sense of worth.

[schwing]

Hi BrownEyes and 

I don't have children with BPD so I cannot relate to what you describe from first hand experience.  I do, however, have a close family friend who does have a daughter I've known since she was eight years old (she's now in her late twenties) who I have long suspected of having BPD and this kind of mind-game seems very familiar to me.

I don't know how accurate this is (you'd have to ask a professional) but this is how I currently choose to understand why people with BPD (pwBPD) act in such ways; this kind of behavior is not limited to children with BPD.

My understanding of BPD is that at the core of this disorder are unresolved traumatic experiences (real or imagined) of an abandonment/betrayal nature which the pwBPD sustained early in development (age: 2-4ish).  I think of it as PTSD for a mind that was not yet fully developed.

Another common behavior for pwBPD is the tendency to feelings and thoughts they cannot handle onto those close to them.  For example, they are angry and cannot accept that they are angry or accept the reasons why they are angry, so they delude themselves into believing that a close loved one is the one who is having the anger issue.  This delusion is then reinforced when they managed to *provoke* that loved one into expressing feelings of anger or rage.  I have seen my uBPDmother look practically giddy when she had managed in the past to provoke me on different occasions.  They get some kind of emotional pay-off and I believe that pay-off is their projection-delusion.

So if we put those two pieces together, this might explain your BPD/DD16's behavior:

She is perhaps dealing with suppressed feelings of trauma, feelings she has nearly zero wherewithal to process, feelings that are not unrelated to shock and pain.  The times in which she may feel these suppressed feelings bubbling may seem random, or they may occur in moments immediate after she experiences other feelings associated with her trauma: familiarity, intimacy, closeness.

So when she is feeling particularly close to her current boyfriend, she *could* have projected these suppressed/disordered feelings onto him, but that would have obviously put pressure on a new relationship (triggering fear of abandonment), so she may have chosen to project them onto you instead.  And when she shocked and hurt you and specifically saw those emotions on your face, she got her pay-off: she deluded herself into believing that those disordered feelings she was experiencing are actually yours.  So it's not so much that they take pleasure in seeing us in pain; they feel relief in triggering these emotions in us.  If they truly take pleasure in seeking us in pain, then I think borderline personality disorder is only part of their issues.

I understand that this makes no sense to someone without this disorder.  Just recall that when your BPD loved one was fully enmeshed with you while idealizing you, they are less able to discern where you start and they end -- there is little separation between the two of you.  This kind of enmeshment allows them to be "emotionally confused" as to who is suffering their disordered feelings.

And you see how this is the kind of disordered behavior which allows them to keep their suppressed feelings suppressed. They keep passing the buck by finding new candidates to be their emotional fall guys.  After some time, she will stop doing this to you because she will have others who will serve as other surrogates.  And this will continue until they choose to find another way; it is not a choice you can make for them.

Best wishes, Schwing

[schwing]

And the shock of her getting so much much pleasure from even thinking of my pain, literally felt like she slapped me across the face.  And I didn't want to escelate the situation into some sort of fight, so I calmly said "I don't really think that would be very funny."  And her reply was "It would be hilarious!"

I always try not to respond in an emotional way when she says these things.  And it's really hard, and it causes me a lot of pain to see the pleasure she gets from it.  So after she left the room, I cried, but she did not know this.

There may be a few strategies to consider.

If the next time she tries to provoke in you some kind of shock and pain, simply remove yourself from her presence.  Go to a "safe area" perhaps even away from the home.  This may trigger in her, her fear of abandonment, which may be counter productive but would at the very least teach her that there will be consequences for such behavior from her.

Another strategy might be to call her bluff in a sense, tell her, you understand that she has feelings that she doesn't understand or know how to cope with, but by pushing other people's buttons doesn't make them go away.  In a sense, you are reflecting her action right back at her when her intent may simply be to make you the target.

I can't guess at what her reaction would be, but it may just trigger her in a way that may be more revealing of what exactly she is dealing with to make her choose to exhibit such behaviors.

And if she said those things while in a rage, then I could understand that she may not be thinking clearly at the moment, and just wanted to lash out.  But to say them when things are going well, and she's all happy and cheerful, it confuses me. 

It is confusing because there is a source of distress in her that does not exist in non-disordered people.  And the way she chooses to manage that distress is completely alien to us, also known as "maladaptive behaviors."

Here's the thing, if hurting and shocking others were truly a source of pleasure.  I would argue she would do this more often whenever she is in obvious distress (like school or social pressures).  It would be one of those impulsive behaviors like alcohol and drug use, something they would abuse.  But if this is happening very infrequently, I would expect it be to a coping mechanism of another nature.

I think her putting on the airs of "happy and cheerful" is a smokescreen.  Like if she were really hurting in a way she does not want anyone else to see (or even admit to herself), then she would put on this well practice front to hide her true feelings and intent.

And to see her get such pleasure and satisfaction from it really hurts.  And she never comes back later to ever apologize.  So I don't really think that she ever has any remorse over those things.

I don't know if you could ever get her to answer honestly about it, but it would be revealing to get her to explain what she "remembers" happened.

[Survive2012]

My son says he likes when we (my husband and me) are sorry and in pain. He does everything he can to give us sorrow. However, I do not believe he feels joy when we are sorry. He just feels a bitter success, something that lasts for just a moment and then leaves a bitter taste on the tongue.

The joy of seing their family suffering is part of their illness. They "think" they like seing us in pain but in fact they don't.

They understand we are part of the same team. They just want to observe our reaction. If we can not show them our suffering, then the game ends.

[Someday . . .]

. . .just a possibility  . . might your daughter also be a sociopath?  A friend of mine's daughter is a diagnosed BPD and sociopath . . she has said similar things.

[redroom]

Hi, I usually post on the "separating from parents w/ BPD board", but I saw what was mentioned earlier about trauma and wanted to add my two cents. I was abused physically, mentally, emotionally, etc (not sexually, though) by both parents for as long as I can remember.  I was diagnosed w/ complex PTSD, which is supposed to be similar to BPD. 

I think this is along the same lines as what you're mentioning.  I used to fantasize about being in a relationship with someone who would abuse me the way that my parents did, for everyone to see.  I don't tend to mention this outside of therapy, but my whole reason for wanting to be with a man who publicly beat me (this was a hypothetical, I was never really with such a person) was so that my mom and dad (especially my dad) would see for themselves and finally understand how badly they had treated me. 

I used to say really screwed up things (that I didn't honestly believe), really dark things that seem sociopathic, only in front of my parents.  It was my way of reaching out to them and saying "you screwed up!  Don't you see how badly you failed?  Look what you did to me!"

Your daughter may sincerely believe that you've traumatized her, and this is her way of getting back at you for it.  Maybe she thinks that if you see for yourself someone else traumatizing her, you'll have some sort of revelation of how much you "failed" her and be sorry. 

It could also be her way of telling you that things aren't OK with her.  She may be a little more cheerful, a little calmer, but the calmness and lifted mood aren't changing what's deep inside her, and she wants to let you know that she's still in need of help of some kind. 

If any of this is out of line, please let me know! 

[BrownEyes]

Thank you so much to everyone who responded to my post.  I really appreciate the time and effort you put into your responses.  You've given me some really interesting things to think about.

One of the things that makes this all so hard to deal with and makes it so triggering for me is that my mother also has BPD.  And the things my daughter says sound exactly the same as my mother.  I've ended contact with my BPD/M three years ago, but I still get triggered when something reminds me of her.  I don't let my BPD/DD16 see that I'm triggered, but internally it's really difficult.

In fact, my BPD/DD16 has even said the exact same words to me as my mother.  One of the most painful statements that both of them have said to me was " I'm sick and tired of always having to pretend to love you, when all I really do is h*te your f*ing g*ts!"   Both my BPD/M and my BPD/D have said these exact words to me, and it's really painful to hear.

I'm currently in therapy due to extreme abuse from both my mother and my father.  So I've talked to my T about my BPD/DD16's behaviour, and he is very supportive. 

I also have my BPD/DD16 in therapy of her own.  She's been going for the past 2 1/2 years.  But I wonder how much progress she's making because she lies extensively to her T.  But my hope is that at least some things are sinking in.  I just want the best for my BPD/DD16, and she's an amazing, beautiful and intelligent girl, but this horrible illness seems to be sucking the life out of her, and me as well at times.  It's just so difficult, as I know you are all aware.

Thank you all again for your responses.  I truly appreciate it.

[sunshineplease]

What redroom said made sense to me. Warped as your daughter's behavior is, BrownEyes, I see it as a tragic attempt to connect with you. Seeing you in pain validates her pain. Think of a baby who laughs. Mom laughs back! When the baby cries, Mom furrows her brows in sympathy and coos. Somewhere in all this maladaptive and infuriating behavior is a scared, sad little girl reaching out. It's just so hard to see her through all that pain and cruelty and self-justification.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[griz]

BrownEyes:  My DD has only done this once to me but I remember it like it was yesterday.  She decided to calmly laugh and talk about how disgusting our home is in front of her friend and her friends mother (who thankfully is a friend of mine).  I was so humiliated I wanted to die.  She went on and on about how our house is always a mess and we don;'t have nice things and she proceeded to go on and on about every room in the house.  The weird thing about it was that it made no sense.  Our house is quite the opposite.  It is usually extremely neat (unlike DD's room, which is a pig sty).  Our house is not fancy and we don;'t have expensive things but it is quite nice.  I was so hurt by the things she said and DD knows that I take great pride in our home so I felt like she was looking to hurt me. She never apologized for doing this and even a few days later when I told her how much she hurt me she laughed it off.

When I look back now I can see that she was at one of her lowest points then.  I think she was so hateful and so angry then that she wanted someone else to feel the same pain as her.  Me being the safest because she knows my love is unconditional.

Griz

[jellibeans]

My dd projects her feeling and thought this way too... .  but usually when she is angry and raging. She will tell me how I have not friends and that no one likes me etc... .  but it ends up being really what she is feeling. she is not sorry for the things she says... .  she wants to hurt me... .  that is her goal.

When she does have friends over she can be very disrepectful to me... .  she will have a hard time being nice. I am not sure why but she likes to show off for her friends.

Sometimes when she is telling me something that has happened she will stop and say "are you crying" I don't think she is looking for this reaction but if I am crying then she does seem to take a bit of pleasure in that. She like to sort of make fun of how senstive I am and I will cry sometimes for the silliest of reasons. I am not sure she takes joy in this but it is more of an experiment I guess.

Maybe your dd lacks the social cues needed for humor... .  she seems to be trying to play a trick on you or joke of some kind but fails to see how that impacts you. Does she have a hard time relating to people and friends?

[parent of bpd daughter]

YES - This happens to me all the time. My BPDD now 32 has done this since she was about 16. And YES, my mother had BPD and alot of other problems and she ALSO did this. It is hard to turn the other cheek - I agree with what everyone else has said here. They cannot feel their pain because it is too uncomfortable for them - so they PROJECT onto us - the closest to them-  to FEEL For Them. In this way they are validated. I wish I knew how to fix this behavior - I have tried everything, but I don't know how. I have apologized for years for anything I may have done to cause her pain as a child (she was not abused in anyway, but her father was verbally and sometimes physically abusive to me early in our relationship, I know this was a contributing factor to her BPD). I think she never learned to deal with negative emotions- because as a child they were overwhelming. Therapy is useless because she lies and refuses to comply, meds have helped somewhat - but still me and my youngest can NOT invite her to any occasion (graduations, weddings, etc.) because she WILL make a scene just to get a reaction. She cannot properly express emotional pain.

When her father died unexpectedly years ago - was the worst - she stole his wallet, physically attacked me, and scared me so much I had to file a restraining order to protect me and my youngest while we grieved his death -  that was the most extreme of this behavior.

Learning to drive at 16 - she accidentally ran over our new puppy - she said "I didn't like him anyway" and shed not 1 tear as I scurried to get him to the vet - that was a clue something was wrong.

When her little sister was born she was 14 - she begged to be in the delivery room - but she was emotionless the whole time while her Dad was a nervous wreck, I was screaming in pain, she stood emotionless as I recall - that was another clue something was wrong.

Be careful in crisis - this behavior seems to become worse - because they externalize their emotional pain.

Yes agree that it brings up things from our own Mothers if they were BPD also - it is very painful - I think there is also

a genetic component. I had my DNA tested (23andme is the company) and I myself have the genetic markers for BiPolar - so obviously there are genetics in her family tree that contribute.

I agree with everyone here - thanks for sharing - this was a good post. Wish I had a magic pill to fix it. Hang in there and stay in therapy for yourself - we all need it.