Valentine's Day triggers BPDDad-- DD 13 and 16 want NC

[mamachelle]

Hey, just needing some advice on a legal grey area. Or at least it seems to be. It involves my DD now 13 and 16 who want NC with their BPDDad and have had NC since 2009, yet he does message them occasionally through FBook. This weekend, with valentine's day and DD 16 birthday, he made contact again through FBook telling my DD they are beautiful and they should call him... .  

Some Background:

My exBPDH and I divorced in 2005. We have joint custody, I am residential parent. He has never ever been able to maintain anything resembling joint custody.

In 2009, he became physically abusive to my younger DD during visitation.  I hired a new lawyer, filed a petition or motion and had visitation suspended until he sought counseling, my lawyer also added in a number of other things like the lack of child support, petition for increase, etc.  GAL was appointed. DCFSwas called and Abuse was indicated.

It scared the crap out of my exBPDH. He never went back to court after the first hearing, never paid his lawyer, never paid the GAL... .  

Every few months, sometimes as long as a year even, he will make a lame attempt to make contact.

2 months ago, he showed up at my door, unnanounced. No one opened the door and he fled.

Later I texted him after he apologized via text... .  that

"xxx I know you are not trying to cause problems. Your visitation was suspended due to court order in 2009. Did you just move back? What is your address"

He texted back

"Ok, kids need both parents. but ok, have a nice day... .  "

So, here is the deal, whenever I talk with my lawyer or smom who is a lawyer, they say well, if the girls want to talk to their father it's ok... .  

And I just cringe.

My DD want NC. They want to be left alone.

Is there a legal NC for teens that anyone has had success with?

Does suspension of visitation also apply to phone contact?

    ANyone have some good one liners that may not be legal but would keep him thinking it's all me and the courts keeping him away?

Should I be proactive or have I been proactive enough?

My Lawyer always prefers to lay low then strike if needed. He makes fun of my exH at times, thinking he is really a wimp. I think he may be, but he is also an immigrant from Mexico, and he has a history of violence. Right now, he is fairly quiet. If he ever did speak with an attorney though, I might be dealing with a bigger issue.

I just would like to protect my DD from becoming bad in their BPDdad eyes. They live normal teen lives and don't need his crazy fbook messages coming in.

RIght now, I am the bad guy and I'd prefer he didn't know his DD really want nothing to do with him.

[DreamGirl]

Why do they want no contact at all?

[mamachelle]

He scares them now. Before they went NC He threatened their Sdad one time with running him over with a car.

There were a couple Christmas's where he made them pick out their presents in the dollar bin at Target.

He wanted to take them to Mexico to see their family there at one point.

His emotional stuff scares them. They don't want to get sucked back in to his life ever.

I don't blame them either.

[stuckinbetween]

It's hard to say, but picking out gifts from a dollar bin or wanting them to meet their paternal side (but in a safe place, not in Mexico) doesn't necessarily sound dangerous.  When he texted you after showing up at your door, he sounded contrite.  But a history of violence is never good.  There would have to be supervised visitation.

Sounds like he genuinely wants to re-establish contact and be in the kids lives somehow.  How's his record been for the last 4 yrs.?  Is the reason the girls want NC because of the old threat and the dollar bin incident?

Only reading between the lines here---

Stuckinbetween

[ForeverDad]

I too don't know the extent of the past issues, so I don't know how distressing his occasional contact attempts are for you or the children.  So with that disclaimer, perhaps occasional contact attempts - from a distance - are not all that bad.  After all, while he may not be trying to improve his life, at least he's hot hounding them, does it only occasionally from a distance.

We're anonymous here, don't know all the particulars, but maybe some periodic contact would be better than none?  Even if the other parent is messed up (with less-than-serious behaviors), it may be good for them to know their father does care for them even if imperfectly and even if not that great of a role model.  And maybe he's thinking that maybe some day they'll change their minds and allow contact, that if he doesn't try now and again, how would he know that?

As I wrote, I don't know what sort of abuse was "indicated" or to what extent things were bad back then (I didn't look back into past posts) so I may very well be off base here.  Just saying, in case what you're feeling is a bit of overreaction.

[DreamGirl]

We have to be careful in these kinds of scenarios.  

If we teach/allow our children to run away from the pain of dealing with their disordered parent, they are just procrastinating the inevitable. I really do understand just not wanting to deal with him, but that's a coping skill that doesn't always yield the best outcome.

Also as the parent who is responsible for facilitating the relationship with the other parent, we have to make sure we're doing the "right thing"  and that it isn't just a practice in giving our children what it is they think they want.

Would therapeutic supervised visitation be an option for their Dad? A therapist who could help both the kiddos and Dad find their common ground?

~DreamGirl

[mamachelle]

Thanks for responses-- here is a little more info-- I know, no easy answers here... .  

Well, they really really do not want to see them. The last time they saw him, he had become despondent and was grabbing my younger DD so hard it caused bruises. It was very traumatic and on top of all the other verbal and emotional abuse, they literally, turn white when ever I bring it up to them. When BPD Dad showed up at the house a couple months ago, my DD 13 was terrified and to see the look on  her face was just so hard to see as a mom. Monster at the door... .  

The christmas present stuff was really abusive and strange and happened 2 years in a row. He was telling them they were spoiled by me and their SDad and then had them pick the presents and wrap them in newspaper and then he bought real or semi-real presents for his step kids (actually GF kids) that were living with him. We had bought presents for GF kids and for him and his GF before Christmas, so my kids were coming in to this feeling all good and then he pulled this crazy making stuff on them. They are girls-- so they remember the christmas presents a lot more than the other things.

ALso the mexico trip felt like a threat to take them out of the country and they were terrified as well.

Since all this, and after therapy, and even recently, I have offered to have them talk with him or email with him over the years but they always say no.

They are FB friends with one cousin in Mexico on their Dad's side. I told them they should friend her because at least it would give their Dad a limited window into their world.

I like that he can see their pictures and get the sense that they are ok from FB. I just don't want to force contact with a BPD Dad who is staying away for the most part.

I also think there is some truth to keep your friends close and your enemies closer, and if they could have some contact with Dad before they are adults it might help their anxiety.

Their therapist and my lawyer refused to do 'therapy' supervised visitation as it would put them in danger and advised only court supervised visitation. Yet, the same lawyer has not advised me or sees no real issue with phone contact or email contact which can be very frightening for a kid or kids like mine.

BPD Dad has not made any effort to go to therapy or deal with the legal implications or pay child support so it's hard for me as a parent to want to facilitate anything but there is the reality that they will have to face this at some point.

[Rose1]

If it's any consolation I found that the BPD behaviour toward adult children (and late teens) becomes worse than when they are small. I have D's as well and they picked up on it (creeped out by him and his friends I believe was the expression) Since I have taught them stranger danger and to go with their gut, the fact that their BPDf triggered their creep meter is interesting and disturbing but also good I think - less chance of marrying one in later life, although d27 did and none of us picked it (I was looking very carefully).

In reality, if their father was someone else, would you encourage association or would you tell them not to take the sweets? We need to think about this actually - I am not one in favour of contact with a BPD parent at all costs. However some contact does teach kids how to deal with mental illness, BPD behaviour and how to pick it in friends and other future associates. A lot depends on the degree of aberrant behaviour, how much stuff is directed at the kids etc. For example, a BPD parent ranting about the other parent is one thing, one exhibiting violent or vaguely sexual overtones is quite another. Both are difficult to deal with but one might actually be dangerous. A lot of people with BPD have had a background of sexual abuse as well and as we know, this behaviour can run in families. My Dh's adult children will not permit some family members near their kids. 

So just because a person is a parent doesn't also make them a desirable associate and contact for kids who are exhibiting the anxiety yours are is unlikely to be beneficial imo. You may not be aware of everything that has happened and what has caused them to feel the way they do either.

Rose

[mamachelle]

Rose1

Yes to all above, my DD have already a very good creep meter though dating is just getting started. We talk a lot about friends, and both of my DD have had to deal with BPD like traits in friends over the years and also my DD16 has had a stalker type guy interested in her a couple years ago. We used techniques from resources here to get him to go away... .  

DD16 recently had a problem with a cheerleading coach and we used many of the techniques to try to get the coach to leave her alone as she kept playing DD against the other girls and is just a terrible terrible coach.

DD16 told me, "You know when the coach was crying and saying how she was such a bad coach and did the team want to just get rid of her, it reminded me of Dad."

So, yeah, I was sending my DD back into his world EOW or like once a month and as things got worse I was telling them don't leave the other one alone in the same room. Keep your cell phone on at all times... .  

Looking back, it was ridiculous but he had not crossed the physical abuse line so it was hard to see the forest for the trees.

I think, when you feel more comfortable leaving your DD with a sitter than with their Dad it is time to really start thinking things over.

I don't know if exBPDH was sexually abused but his comments recently about how beautiful they are and the content of his text messages back when he had DD phone number and now with FB messaging is also like that he would have with a GF creeps the 3 of us out.

My NonH and I both think it is ok to leave things as they are. I hope exBPDH doesn't push anything further. He probably won't but if he does, I'll surely be posting here for help. Valentine's Day is such a trigger... .  

[Rose1]

I left things as they were - exBPDh never really pushed about seeing the kids. Mostly when he was trying to impress someone by being FOTY temporarily. I guess if you have a new GF and you never see your kids you can either blame the ex wife or you can make an attempt to look good.  He used as much PAS as he could on them and now is surprised they don't want to be around him. He also threatened custody at one point but I had a lot of dirt on him and also on his parents and threatened to let it all out - nothing illegal, just stuff that prim and very socially conscious uBPDmil would not have tolerated.

don't know if exBPDH was sexually abused but his comments recently about how beautiful they are and the content of his text messages back when he had DD phone number and now with FB messaging is also like that he would have with a GF creeps the 3 of us out.

This is concerning - why would V Day be triggering with regard to his D's? ExBPDh once tried to get D to pretend she was his girlfriend - really creeped her out  . I'd say go with their gut feel.

[tog]

I think this is a really tricky issue. On the one hand, there is such a thing as abuse.

On the other, the way you relate to them in regard to their father will influence how they feel. In our case, my SO's uN/BPDstbxw convinced SS13 (10 at the time) that he should be frightened of his father by saying things such as "call me at a certain time so I know you are OK" or "keep your cell phone on you at all times" etc, because she was utterly convinced in her head that SO was abusive to him and SS needed protecting from him. SS has begun to realize how she influenced him in that way, but she continues to do it because she really is delusional in that area.

Your X may honestly, truly, be abusive. But you have to be careful in not letting the kids see that you feel that way or that will influence them. So, how do you protect your kids but not influence them to refuse to see their father (unconsciously, of course). My thought would be that you don't talk to them about it at all. Not one bit. Tell them that you expect them to have some kind of relationship with their father (after all, NC just isn't healthy at their ages, IMO),  but you will support them figuring it out on their own, and let them talk it through with a therapist and make a decision. Tell the therapist that is your plan and then direct the kids there whenever they bring it up.

They may be refusing contact because they are being loyal to you and they know you are afraid of him. It really should not be a kid's choice if they see their parent at all, and it's unusual to allow it. Even in cases of true abuse, kids are usually ambivalent and want some contact, they just want it not to be abusive. Their hesitance to see him at all may indicate more alienation than ONLY abuse.

I'm not accusing you. Just pointing out that unconsciously influencing the kids in regard to their other parent goes both ways.

[mamachelle]

Tog

Yes, this has all been sorted through in therapy. DDs see contact with their Dad after he has made some effort to get in to counseling. DD16 told me last night she sees talking to him when she is an adult at this point. I always offer her and her sister the chance to talk with him. He has gone 4 years like this so they are now used to this situation. The petition was filed to hit the reset button on visitation as BPDDad was becoming more and more abusive. He needs therapy. Visitation needs to be supervised. The problem with phone contact is that it opens them up to verbal abuse or emotional abuse. The court papers spell it out better than I am able to do here, but yes, there was abuse. Definitely not PAS then, it was like I was sending them into combat every time near the end. Not PAS now either, my DD are very rational about their Dad and unless he is wiling to do what he should, make some effort other than the occasional text or message, I think I am going to not say much either way as you say, and def not push anything. Also helps he moved away across the country and never leaves forwarding addresses and doesn't pay child support... .  It sucks that pwBPD use these false charges and PAS to turn normal situations into ones that a kid could perceive as abusive.

rose1

yes, I think your experience is a lot like mine. VD is one of my DD birthday and 3 days short of my and exBPDH anniversary. So triggers on top of triggers. So far so good today. Just crossing my fingers he leaves them alone.

[Rose1]

It was subtle but over time developed into a great deal of emotional abuse. D27 did not cut off contact until she was about 24 after a particularly nasty session with her step mother. D23 cut off contact a long time ago - she has a lot of issues (including bi polar and language impairment) and sees things in black and white.  ExBPDh told her on the phone he wasn't her father and I saw her sitting there with tears running down her cheek. I could have reached through the phone and ripped  his jugular out quite frankly. His excuse was he thought he was talking to her sister and that I have prevented him from being a father. She hasn't spoken to him much since then - just occasionally - no thanks, washing my toe nails that day sort of stuff. I refused to push her after a screaming session where she sat in the corner yelling no when I tried.

D 27 went overseas with him backpacking when she was 18. At that point her boundaries were no PAS, no discussion about me at all, no discussion about the grandparents. He more or less kept to that but also put her in a couple of difficult situations so she decided traveling with him was not an option again. D27 once phoned her father every day for 3 months and either got a hang up or no answer. It was very painful to watch her being emotionally abused to be honest. I always had the phone there if they wanted it but also gave them strategies on how to get out of uncomfortable situations - own phone, instructions to call and walk out without belongings if it became uncomfortable. ExBPDh is an emotional manipulator but has turned violent with me instantly - as the girls got older the pattern of his behaviour changed from golden child (d27) more into how he used to behave with me and it was a definite problem. He was not interested in protecting her - ogled 18 year olds in her company, kept strange friends in the house if she was staying over (she refused) etc. I know what you mean about sending her into a war zone - emotionally. When you seriously tell your D to take a phone into the toilet to call if she wanted out so that he wouldn't either restrain her or destroy the phone, then you have to realise you are dealing with a very bad situation emotionally and maybe physically and that the kids don't need that.

ExBPDh was in an emotionally incestuous relationship with his mother and had no idea how to relate to older teenage and adult daughters. Creepy quasi sexual overtones to his conversations did not seem to bother him - ie hold my hand and pretend to be my girlfriend when D27 was 16. I think these things cause a lot of damage - they caused a lot of anger in D27 and also in D24 whose anger is mostly around "he was mean to my sister".

Tog - I understand what you are saying - that this can be both ways but exBPD cut himself off from the girls - visits over a 15 year period were irregular and he often dumped them on his parents or took them to friends houses where he would go on about the daughter of the house - how wonderful she was etc apparently to the   point. Never tell his own kids they were any good at all. I saw a lot of repeat of his relationship with his parents and then they also started to treat the kids the way they had treated me - lectures about respect, how you are just like your mother etc.  Frankly imo kids do better without that and mine have. They got plenty of chances to have a relationship but it was always difficult and "what's in it for me" at best, and creepy and emotionally abusive at worst.

[tog]

Oh absolutely, I hear what you are saying. I just think we have to be careful that we don't unconsciously transmit our own feelings to the kids, but let them work it out themselves. If an adult decides they will have no contact with a parent, that's on them. But for a kid, I think the expectation should be that they don't just cut the parent out without a lot of effort to have SOME kind of relationship, even just supervised visitation or a text now and then.

[Rose1]

I felt strongly about that to start with and then saw the damage. However, it did stop all the "I want to live with Dad and you don't let me contact him" stuff which is important. He tried to tell the girls I was keeping them from him and they knew better. I had good advice to allow the contact and to allow the girls to make arrangements to see their father and be disappointed time and again as he backed out of arrangements, found other things more important etc. It was painful but they learned very clearly that it wasn't me.  D27 realised at about 16 that if dad wanted her to live with him it was as a housekeeper - she wasn't interested.

It's a hard road because we don't want to see the emotional damage the relationship causes but they also need to learn how to deal with it. Honestly, at times I think it's better if they left when the kids are 2 and never came back.