Help... Confused by Recent BPD Behavior

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Here is my big question for everyone out there who has been through this with a SO who does not recognize or admit they have BPD.  Even though he has not been formally diagnosed with the disorder I am absolutely certain that he has it, more than one counselor has suggested it and he exhibits to the extreme every single characteristic of the disorder except for the suicidal thinking.  Sorry for the long post but wanted to give just a little background to a very long story.

I separated from him in November, moving out with my children from a prior marriage to a safe place.  I just couldn't take it anymore, the constant rages, addictions, verbal abuse, manipulation, paranoia, control, his negative effect on my kids, and so forth.  I just felt like I had disappeared as a person and was drowning and if I didn't finally get out I would never be able to recover.  Over the past few months I have started to heal and get stronger with the help of my counselor, my kids and my friends.  My BPD has cycled between begging me to come home because I am the love of his life and most important thing to him and rage/anger that I would dare to leave him alone.  He asked for marital counseling and I agreed to attend, mostly in the hope that his issues would come to light so that someone besides me would suggest further evaluation and treatment.  We really have made no progress in marital counseling because he spends most of his time arguing with the counselor or blaming me for everything.  Then he came up with the idea from our Pastor to attend a 4 day intensive group marriage counseling program out of state that is nationally recognized.  It is Christian based and I believe his motivation for wanting to go was to isolate me from everyone for a week and hopefully these folks would tell me to go home.  I grudgingly agreed to go, again with the hope that maybe he would be confronted with his pathology and perhaps I would get something out of it as well.  I actually did learn quite a bit but he spent the whole time arguing with the counselors in front of the other couples and raging at me after hours, he did a lot to keep everyone from moving forward and making progress.  By the end of the week one of the counselors looked him dead in the eyes and told him that he was certain that he had a personality disorder and needed to seek out immediate evaluation, treatment and therapy when he got home.  This was not well received by my BPD.  He spent the trip home angry and argumentative and then once back we didn't see each other or talk for a few days.  Sunday night he called and was like a completely different person, sounding completely balanced and saying things I have never heard him say, it wasn't like the times when he was using the idealization/put me on a pedestal behavior to charm me into forgiving him.  So here is my question... .  

Can they spontaneously get better for no apparent reason?  Are they able to miraculously not have the disorder any longer or is what I am experiencing right now an incredible acting job?  He is saying and doing all of the right things since Sunday, yes its just a few days, but I have never in 6 1/2 years heard him speak like this, taking responsibility for his behavior, feeling badly for taking it out on me all these years, acting like an extremely balanced person.  Coming out of the 4 day marriage intensive seminar which was just a few couples and two counselors he heard a lot, especially information on what the right thing to say and do would be to get me to consider coming back and also got called out multiple times for his behavior and addictions and was directly told the counselors believed he had a personality disorder.  Its almost as if he realized that the seminar itself was not going to make me come home, it was Christian based so I think he thought they would put the pressure on me to go home and they didn't, so perhaps he took a couple days to think and then switched gears and started to speak and act the party line to get me to soften.

Is this all an extremely well orchestrated act on his part?  Can BPD's suddenly and for no apparent reason get better without treatment and help?  I just don't know what to make of this and am not sure what to think except sit tight, stay separate and see how long this lasts. 

Any advice, thoughts would be so helpful.  Thank you

[MaryJane3]

Here is my big question for everyone out there who has been through this with a SO who does not recognize or admit they have BPD.  Even though he has not been formally diagnosed with the disorder I am absolutely certain that he has it, more than one counselor has suggested it and he exhibits to the extreme every single characteristic of the disorder except for the suicidal thinking.  Sorry for the long post but wanted to give just a little background to a very long story.

I separated from him in November, moving out with my children from a prior marriage to a safe place.  I just couldn't take it anymore, the constant rages, addictions, verbal abuse, manipulation, paranoia, control, his negative effect on my kids, and so forth.  I just felt like I had disappeared as a person and was drowning and if I didn't finally get out I would never be able to recover.  Over the past few months I have started to heal and get stronger with the help of my counselor, my kids and my friends.  My BPD has cycled between begging me to come home because I am the love of his life and most important thing to him and rage/anger that I would dare to leave him alone.  He asked for marital counseling and I agreed to attend, mostly in the hope that his issues would come to light so that someone besides me would suggest further evaluation and treatment.  We really have made no progress in marital counseling because he spends most of his time arguing with the counselor or blaming me for everything.  Then he came up with the idea from our Pastor to attend a 4 day intensive group marriage counseling program out of state that is nationally recognized.  It is Christian based and I believe his motivation for wanting to go was to isolate me from everyone for a week and hopefully these folks would tell me to go home.  I grudgingly agreed to go, again with the hope that maybe he would be confronted with his pathology and perhaps I would get something out of it as well.  I actually did learn quite a bit but he spent the whole time arguing with the counselors in front of the other couples and raging at me after hours, he did a lot to keep everyone from moving forward and making progress.  By the end of the week one of the counselors looked him dead in the eyes and told him that he was certain that he had a personality disorder and needed to seek out immediate evaluation, treatment and therapy when he got home.  This was not well received by my BPD.  He spent the trip home angry and argumentative and then once back we didn't see each other or talk for a few days.  Sunday night he called and was like a completely different person, sounding completely balanced and saying things I have never heard him say, it wasn't like the times when he was using the idealization/put me on a pedestal behavior to charm me into forgiving him.  So here is my question... .  

Can they spontaneously get better for no apparent reason?  Are they able to miraculously not have the disorder any longer or is what I am experiencing right now an incredible acting job?  He is saying and doing all of the right things since Sunday, yes its just a few days, but I have never in 6 1/2 years heard him speak like this, taking responsibility for his behavior, feeling badly for taking it out on me all these years, acting like an extremely balanced person.  Coming out of the 4 day marriage intensive seminar which was just a few couples and two counselors he heard a lot, especially information on what the right thing to say and do would be to get me to consider coming back and also got called out multiple times for his behavior and addictions and was directly told the counselors believed he had a personality disorder.  Its almost as if he realized that the seminar itself was not going to make me come home, it was Christian based so I think he thought they would put the pressure on me to go home and they didn't, so perhaps he took a couple days to think and then switched gears and started to speak and act the party line to get me to soften.

Is this all an extremely well orchestrated act on his part?  Can BPD's suddenly and for no apparent reason get better without treatment and help?  I just don't know what to make of this and am not sure what to think except sit tight, stay separate and see how long this lasts. 

Any advice, thoughts would be so helpful.  Thank you

[Clearmind]

When was the course? How long have you been home?

Can BPD's suddenly and for no apparent reason get better without treatment and help? – short answer is No! It’s a disorder of the personality and if in fact he is BPD then its more than unlikely. Continue to maintain good boundaries.

To be realistic we need to take their past behaviors into account MJ3! If in fact this is a short lived episode - what would need to change for you to consider reconciling?

[Somewhere]

Have seen abuse based cases where multiples exist.

They go into the other persona(s).

Overall this sounds like a deep mess.  Get and keep the kids clear of this.

Kids are #1 priority, right?

[MaryJane3]

Thank you both for your responses. 

Clearmind - The course was last week Feb 4-Feb 8.  We returned Friday and went to our separate homes and stayed apart, he was not in a good place when we left the course and I needed a break.  He called me Sunday night with this radical complete change in attitude, speech and behavior.  We did go to our marriage counselor this morning and he was still speaking and acting like he did on Sunday night, I haven't noticed any cracks around the edges yet.  In the past I have seen him be able to go short periods of time controlling his behavior.  I plan to maintain good boundaries like you said and give this some time.  I have no immediate plans to move back in or reconcile.  For me to consider reconciling he would have to be willing to seek evaluation (to include the psychologist interviewing me for a history) and treatment and show a commitment to staying the course long term. 

Somewhere - I have been concerned about his frequent inability to remember conversations or what was said, it is almost like a different part of him is present at different times.  His moods swing so wildly.  I have seen him skillfully slip into different persona's to suit the audience and the moment.  I wish I had been stronger and been able to get myself and the kids out earlier than I did.  We are all three so much happier already and I see them blossoming because they feel safe and we feel like a family again.  There is warmth, comfort, love and acceptance in my home and I am really enjoying my girls for the first time in a long time.  The kids are my number one priority and I will keep them clear of this.  You are right it is a deep mess.

I appreciate both of your responses, it helps to be able to get my thoughts out and have some feedback.  There is definitely a part of me that wishes the good side of him that I love so much would just stay and permanently banish the bad but I realize that you are right... .  there is too much history from the last 6 years to ignore.  I will sit tight, take care of me and my kids and stay watchful.  I will also take the time to use the resources offered here.  I am not ready to make a final decision yet but I think when his behavior turns for the worse and if he is still not willing to take the counselors advice and seek help I will have finally reached the point where I can take the next step to make this separation permanent. 

[Clearmind]

I like that you are thinking about you and your child MJ. Actions speak louder than words - you have your eyes open.

Interesting to here what the counsellor had to say about your session.

Hugs to you

[MaryJane3]

Thank you Clearmind I appreciate the support and advice.  Our marriage counselor either has not seen enough/spent enough time with us to recognize the personality disorder or does see it and is not yet willing to address it.  It has seemed to me like the counselor has been trying to gain my uBPDh's trust.  His response to what was said in session today was that my uBPDh has made a lot of progress and that the intensive counseling course we went to seems to have made a big difference.  The counselor that called out my uBPDh as having a personality disorder was the gentleman that spent 10 hours a day with us for 4 days straight last week and who saw it all, the good, the bad and the ugly.  My uBPDh stated on the trip back that he was planning to go seek evaluation and treatment when we returned but I have heard not one word about him really planning to do so since our return. 

I am going to sit tight and see what unfolds from the safety of my home. 

I hope you have a great evening and thanks again!

[almost789]

the right thing to say and do would be to get me to consider coming back and also got called out multiple times for his behavior and addictions and was directly told the counselors believed he had a personality disorder.  Its almost as if he realized that the seminar itself was not going to make me come home, it was Christian based so I think he thought they would put the pressure on me to go home and they didn't, so perhaps he took a couple days to think and then switched gears and started to speak and act the party line to get me to soften.

Is this all an extremely well orchestrated act on his part?  Can BPD's suddenly and for no apparent reason get better without treatment and help?  I just don't know what to make of this and am not sure what to think except sit tight, stay separate and see how long this lasts. 

Any advice, thoughts would be so helpful.  Thank you

No they can't suddenly get better. Something that struck me is how this counselor after  a few days confronted him that he had a personality disorder. (big no, no.) They don't handle being confronted about mental illness, especially in that manner, without warning and abruptly. Have you seen the "Schema Modes" of the Borderline personality? Yes, they kind of switch into differing personalities. You can find them on here and on the web. Search "Schema modes" Detached Protector is one of these modes they will go into when faced with overwhelming emotions and feelings they can not bear. Couselors and psychologists who are not experienced in BPD will not recognise this mode and will think the patient is perfectly fine and without any personality disorder when in this mode. I would suggest if he is willing to get into therapy you seek an experienced BPD specialist.

[MaryJane3]

I agree that if and when he is willing to get into therapy that he needs a BPD specialist.  I don't know if he will get to that point or not, or if he will give me any opening to support or even suggest or not.  He is very good at not displaying the worst of his behaviors socially or at work, everyone outside the immediate family thinks he is a great guy so I have very little to no support except from my kids, closest friends and family.  I love him, my heart breaks for him and for me and our relationship, I pray everyday that he decides to get help.  I have promised myself that I will not reconcile until he gets evaluation and treatment and shows a commitment to stick with it. 

I appreciate your insight and took a look at the Schema Modes and do see him switch into several of these different modes, in and out, kind of cycling through on a regular basis.  I understand what you are saying about the counselor from the marriage intensive program, I am sure you are right and I feel badly that it happened to him while we were there even though part of me is relieved that someone finally said it out loud.  What my uBPDh did not consider was that this course is for marriages on the verge of divorce due to separation, infidelity and so forth, it is rescue 911 last ditch attempt to save broken marriages and the materials provided in advance clearly state that you need to be prepared to have your thoughts, patterns and behaviors discussed and brought to light.  You fill out a bunch of forms before you go giving your own history and background only, not your spouses.  The first day we were there I was asked if I realized I had pathology which did not bother me because I have already been dealing with mine with my counselor at home... .  I calmly said yes I am codependent and have avoidant behavior tendencies.  I was prepared though and am not in denial... .  unfortunately my uBPDh was not prepared at all because he does not recognize what is hurting him.  He went right into defense mode, that he realizes he has addiction issues and anger management issues but that is all, end of story.  He stated that he was tested in 2005 before he could get gastric bypass surgery and was informed that his only problem was an extreme anger issue, that he was cleared otherwise.  Who really knows what the tests were or what they were testing for, my uBPDh makes so many things up or twists reality so much that you never know what the real story is.

At this point I am going to sit tight, see my counselor, pray and stay supportive and compassionate as much as I can while taking care of myself.  Thanks!  I appreciate having this forum, it is such a relief to be able to talk about all of this.

[almost789]

Hi MaryJane,

Don't feel bad about that. That was the counselors poor choice. I only mentioned it because I know. I told mine. But I had very slowly hinted at the problem to him and had been gaging his reactions the whole time. Before I knew you shouldn't tell them I had sent him a link with a description of BPD also with the label on the disorder. He did not take it well. But he did return and seemed open to other information. Mine is frequently in detached protector mode and one can not tell anything is wrong with him. Until you get very close to them. Like your husband, it is very often the case that others don't know and only close family and friends notice. The thing is we can't protect them from everything as you see here the counselor told him after knowing him for just a few days. There's not much you could have done about that. Sounds like he is in denial. Mine is too. I hope one day he comes out of his denial and gets into the right therapy. Its true once you read about the Modes seems you can see each one in them at times. I know I did in mine. I've seen all of them. When I met him he seemed to always be in healthy adult mode. But after I got to know him more I saw, happy child, angry child, punative parent, and detached protector. Good luck to you both!

[OKluvsCA]

I appreciate your post and the replies as well. I have only been on here for a little bit but it has helped me understand my situation so much already.

I am learning slowly that my wife will not get better fast if at all. My behaviors really do drive her reactions and our relationship is not healthy. We started marriage counseling which quickly turned into individual counseling at the counselors suggestion. We were getting nowhere together. My counselor and I quickly discovered some things that I needed to work through including codependacy issues and some childhood stuff I didn't even remember. What I've learned with his help and all of ya'll on this site is that I have to take care of myself and my son first. She comes second to that.

Our latest episode left me, my son, and our dog stranded on the side of the road 4+ hours from home with just our clothes on our backs and 26 dollars. Lesson learned. Don't go on trips in her car... .  Luckily I still have a few people in my life that care. She has isolated me quite well though and I'm taking steps to stop with the isolation.

I guess I said all this to say please don't get in too big of a hurry. She is always pushing me to rush back together any time we seperate and manipulates me with all kinds of stuff to make it happen. I bought into me being a horrible person for a little bit, but now just realize that she will say anything to get her way and she doesn't even realize that it isn't true. She cracks me up when she gets so confused at the sweet things I do because she can't remember me ever being sweet before. The only thing she remembers is the horrible thing I did by taking the keys out of the ignition after she is driving 90-100 MPH very erractically because I got in the back seat with my son when she thought we were going to "TALK". After she attacked me viscously to try and get her keys back we calmly got out of the car, threw her keys back in, and watched her drive away. It really breaks my heart. She refuses to see her part at all and just says that I should have know that she would react that way and I should have done what she wanted even though she hadn't shared what she wanted with me. I'm not in a hurry this time and I'm willing to let her go forever if she doesn't get some sense of normality soon.

I understand that BPDs don't take it well when you tell them what is wrong with them but it sure doesn't seem fair that we have to manage them from afar. I applaud your counselor for calling him out and wish for your sake that he really does take a good look in the mirror and becomes the man you know he can be. I wish you the best. Keep your head up and enjoy your kiddos. My little guy loses out when we are with her a lot because she requires so much focus and energy. I feel like I can really be there more for him when I am away from her.

[MaryJane3]

Hi Lifegoeson2, Thank you for your reply, I definitely see my uBPDh go through all of the different schemas at times.  He is definitely in denial, he hasn't said one single word about what the counselor said since we got back, not even to defend himself as not having an issue, he acts like it was never even spoken.  He spent all of last week from Sunday to Sunday in healthy adult mode, acting very normal and easy to get along with.  As expected though he cracked yesterday.  I made the mistake of telling him when he called in the morning that I was not feeling so well and was having some emotional sadness... .  it went horribly downhill from there back into the blaming me for everything, calling me names, being cruel and heartless and so forth.  It was my fault for messing with him when he was "doing so well", how dare I have a bad morning of my own, don't I know how much pain he is in or how much he is struggling?  Fortunately by being separated I was able to detach and not allow it to continue, I did well, I detached with love and not anger.  I even kept my date with a good longtime friend for a movie and dinner, she has stood by my side through thick and thin for years, my normal reaction would have been to run to him, console him and stand her up... or not go at all and just wallow in misery by myself.  I am proud of myself for making the healthy decision.  Counseling has definitely been good and helped me with my co dependency issues.  I hope you are doing well and yours becomes willing to seek treatment and that you take care of yourself and stay well.

Hi OKluvsCA,  I feel for you, this is just not fun at all.  There seems to be no peace with our BPD's.  Thank you for the encouragement to stay strong and give it time, it helps to hear from others here.  You are right, it just doesn't seem fair that we have to sit by and just pray they finally get some help while we watch the constant train wreck.  It is so hard to love someone who is so difficult to live with and love.  I hope you are staying strong and staying apart for your sake and your childs, he needs you.  I am really enjoying my girls and the peace I get by not living with him even though I get drawn back into his drama and chaos I have and escape and am not in it 24/7, it has helped.  As I said above he cracked yesterday, big time, he only was able to manage the healthy adult mode for a week.  i am glad I am not living with him and I won't agree to move back in until he is in a treatment program and is committed to it.

Its incredible to see how quickly they go from thinking you are amazing to the worst person they have ever met.  I still am shocked by how hateful and venomous they become for absolutely no rational reason, at least that I can see.  My heart breaks for what they are going through but I love myself enough to no longer go into the pit with him.  My kids need me, I need me and my life is worth more than spending the entirety of it on his issues.

I wish everyone a healthy, peaceful day.  Much Love!

[MaryJane3]

After the insanity of the past two days I am going to take the time to go through the links and materials offered here.  I have read a bunch of the books but I am still missing it in some areas.  Especially the not reacting part... .  I was able to stop reacting and detach yesterday and it felt good... .  then I allowed myself to get pulled in today, met him to talk and lost my grip and reacted to his venom and hatred and boy did it escalate to he can't take it anymore, I have been too uncaring and harsh with him, how dare I separate from him, what about his needs, wants and desires, he is a man not a doormat, and so one and so forth.  He wants a divorce, immediately because I am too much to deal with.  I am kicking myself for letting it happen, for reacting and not detaching. 

I have a question, how do you know when it is love and not pity?  I am beginning to think that my feeling for my uBPDh are based on pity, not love, because I am happier without him and don't miss him but for a few brief moments here and there. 

[almost789]

You know what. This was my issue. I stayed out of pity. I felt sorry for him, felt sorry for abandoning him, for saying angry things to him. I thought if I stayed I could repair at least the damage I had done. It was love. I did love him, but pity played a huge role for me.

[MaryJane3]

SummerT321 - I am not sure of all of your backstory.  Are you still in the relationship or have you permanently left?  I know pity and guilt are playing a role to keep me from making my separation permanent.  I also know there is still some love there because when he is in a healthier schema I feel the love I have for him. 

[almost789]

Hi MaryJane,

I left, then went back 4 times. He couldnt manage my boundaries. I also dont have that much invested. We are not married, dont have children together. And this is the biggest one for me, hes in denial and I didnt see the point in continuing in a relationship with someone who wont help themselves. I dont want to be a babysitter, I need a real man one who can manage his emotions or at least tries.

[MaryJane3]

Hi SummerT321,

This is my second time leaving but this time I will not even consider going back unless he recognizes his disorder and seeks treatment and shows a commitment to staying in treatment long term.  My children are not his and they do not like him, they are old enough at 16 and 19 to recognize his disfunction and how chaotic and out of control our relationship was before I started working on my codependency and setting boundaries.  He is completely unable to deal with any of the boundaries I set.

I agree with you completely, the hardest part of all of it is the complete denial and having your hands tied to do anything about it.  It's like being an unsuspecting passenger on a runaway roller coaster ride through hell.  It took me 4 years to figure out that there was some sort of psychological problem at work beyond the alcoholism and then another year after that to figure out it was BPD. 

I appreciate your input, I hope you have a great evening 

[daze]

MaryJane,

Your situation sounds so familiar to me.  I too am separated from my uBPDh/alcoholic and I have two kids, 18 and 16, from my first marriage.  I'm codependent and in individual therapy.

I think it's very interesting that the church counselor called your husband out on it.  Does your husband know enough about personality disorders to understand what it means?  If he has any level of knowledge about it, it must have affected him.  It obviously put him into a reasonable adult mode, but I wonder on top of that.

Though it's not recommended, I told my husband I think he had BPD traits a couple of weeks ago.  Before I told him, I sent him a BPD questionnaire from Tami Green's website without telling him it was for BPD.  I removed the questions about self-injury and suicide.  He responded that he identified with the questions and could answer yes to almost every one of them.  Then when I told him what I thought and why, it didn't come as a surprise to him at all and I wondered if he already had an idea of it.  And I referenced it back to the questionnaire.

After a pretty long idealization stage, with us reading "The High Conflict Couple" out loud and spending more time together, he turned on me Monday - trigger unknown. When it happened the first thought was that he seemed like a different person.  His eyes change and become cold and his voice changes - it becomes harsh, loud, and he swears a lot.

Anyway, I sympathize with you.  Taking care of you and your kids is the most important thing.  As it is for me.

Daze

 

[almost789]

Hi Daze, Dont be too alarmed by the triggering and switching modes.  BPDs will always have times where theyre triggered. The great thing is how open he was with the information you gave him. His loving self will be back.