She wants to "be nice" with the SO

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

This might just be a vent, unless anyone has any insight... .  

I don't know what the trigger is for this (Vday?) but all of a sudden my SO's uBPDx is saying that she's trying to "be nice" and is requesting he do the same in the interest of their D8. She wants the three of them to go to dinner tonight and to the fair. She also says something like she misses the back and forth they used to have (but no she doesn't want him back) and I have brainwashed him into being a bad person (or just someone who no longer constantly bends to her will?). In alternating breaths she calls me demeaning names and calls him a bad father. What baffles SO is that she just called the cops (child welfare check) on him a few weeks ago while we were having Sunday breakfast, I guess that's "being nice"? Usually her texts are just "give me money" so this is different behavior. I'm suspicious.

Anyway, my suggestion (I guess my "brainwashing" was that he clearly state to her that they are not friends and if she wants to communicate it should only be about the D8. He tries not to be that harsh, though, because there's no custody order in place so she could withhold visitation again.  He's only a month and change ago started getting visitation, and it's EOW (hadn't seen the D8 since August).

She, of course, also says that the D8 hates me and doesn't want me around. But I take very little stock in that, as she was saying it even before I met the D8. 

So... .  Should I be watching out for something? I have this sense that something bad is about to happen... .  And I can never predict some (any) of her behavior. 

[Thunderstruck]

This might just be a vent, unless anyone has any insight... .  

I don't know what the trigger is for this (Vday?) but all of a sudden my SO's uBPDx is saying that she's trying to "be nice" and is requesting he do the same in the interest of their D8. She wants the three of them to go to dinner tonight and to the fair. She also says something like she misses the back and forth they used to have (but no she doesn't want him back) and I have brainwashed him into being a bad person (or just someone who no longer constantly bends to her will?). In alternating breaths she calls me demeaning names and calls him a bad father. What baffles SO is that she just called the cops (child welfare check) on him a few weeks ago while we were having Sunday breakfast, I guess that's "being nice"? Usually her texts are just "give me money" so this is different behavior. I'm suspicious.

Anyway, my suggestion (I guess my "brainwashing" was that he clearly state to her that they are not friends and if she wants to communicate it should only be about the D8. He tries not to be that harsh, though, because there's no custody order in place so she could withhold visitation again.  He's only a month and change ago started getting visitation, and it's EOW (hadn't seen the D8 since August).

She, of course, also says that the D8 hates me and doesn't want me around. But I take very little stock in that, as she was saying it even before I met the D8. 

So... .  Should I be watching out for something? I have this sense that something bad is about to happen... .  And I can never predict some (any) of her behavior. 

[Matt]

I think the answer is probably distance.

Less communication with the ex, only by e-mail, and only about practical matters.  No "dates" with Ex, SO and D.  Just don't respond to Ex's attempts to complicate things or talk about vague ideas like "nice".

He should pay her the money he is supposed to pay her -  no more and no less, and no discussion about it.  He should drop of D8 and pick her up at the right times and the right places.  Other than that, minimal contact with Ex, and nothing vague or emotional - no argument to what she is saying, and no agreement to it either.

If he gets into a pattern where she judges his behavior as "nice" or "not nice", he can't win.  He'll be back enmeshed with her and things will just get more messy.

[GaGrl]

It's not a good idea at all for the ex to request "dates" with your SO and the daughter.  That's a dynamic that keeps the ex thinking she's still in a relationship other than "mother of his child," and it's especially confusing for the daughter.

[Matt]

It's not a good idea at all for the ex to request "dates" with your SO and the daughter.  That's a dynamic that keeps the ex thinking she's still in a relationship other than "mother of his child," and it's especially confusing for the daughter.

Yeah, and of course neither Thunderstruck nor SO can control his ex's requests - she may keep suggesting stuff like that.

I went through that at first - and to be honest, I contributed to it.  I invited my ex to Thanksgiving dinner, birthday dinners, etc., for the first year or so, til my friends here pointed out how that was contributing to unhealthy engagement, instead of getting some distance.

Now we have much more distance - we work out schedules for holiday, birthdays, etc., so each of us can do whatever we want with the kids, but we don't do stuff together.  And I don't get her opinions about stuff, because I quit responding when I got them... .  

[Thunderstruck]

I agree, I agree, I agree with all of this. I've asked SO quite a few times to cut out the texting/pic msgs/phone calls/blah blah and only communicate via e-mail. I think in theory SO would like NC/LC but it's difficult without a court order in place (and the process is taking FOREVER!) so that's how we're in this wishy-washy situation. He's at her mercy for visitation (I call her the gatekeeper) and she takes advantage of that big time.

So... .  I don't know what she's doing here. Maybe she just wanted him to pay for the fair because she can't afford it. Maybe she was jealous because him and I and D8 went to the fair the weekend before. Maybe she wants to make me look like a fool by advertising to everyone that they went together "as a family" right around Valentine's Day. Or maybe she just misses being around him. I don't know.

SO tells me not to try to make sense of her motives, since she doesn't think like a rational person. He tells me he doesn't care that she says this stuff, because he's not going to respond. I say yes, but if you don't set up strict boundaries then guess who she's going to come after... .  The target is always me.

[sanemom]

Yeah, and of course neither Thunderstruck nor SO can control his ex's requests - she may keep suggesting stuff like that.

I went through that at first - and to be honest, I contributed to it.  I invited my ex to Thanksgiving dinner, birthday dinners, etc., for the first year or so, til my friends here pointed out how that was contributing to unhealthy engagement, instead of getting some distance.

That seems to be a common dynamic.  My dh did the same--even invited her on a family vacation with the kids.  I think that kind of engagement probably made it that much harder for her when he moved on in his life with me.  I think it is confusing for the kids, too--gets their hopes up for what will never be again.

I wonder what it is about the relationship with them that encourages that hanging-on dynamic?

[SayWha?]

My DH did that for several years as well. He would continue to tell his exW everything he did and all about his personal life which would always come back at him in a raging email of some sort. I don't know why it took him so long to figure out that he needed to keep communication to a minimum and only about SS. I would encourage your DH to only communicate in email.

I do hope you get a CO soon and a good one at that! Our CO has made things so much easier for DH. They used to have an "as the parents" agree type thing (which duh, they never agreed) so he would be doing cartwheels to get BPDMom to "allow" access to SS. Then I came along and wrote a real parenting plan and it has literally taken 95% of her power away. She still tries to control the situation by trying to say we can't have this weekend or that weekend because she has plans but all we have to do is copy and paste the CO and say either follow the CO or see you in court. Those are the only two options here. Surprisingly she has caved every time.

BPDMom recently asked DH to go to couples counseling with her so I'm not sure this behavior ever ends. They have been split up for 6 years. Last year she invited DH to the birthday party she was throwing right after she filed papers to limit his parenting time to one weekend a month at her discretion and one week in the summer, no holidays ever. You likely won't ever be able to understand why she does what she does. I was not invited! 

[tog]

Same with my SO. Before he met me and even for a while after, he and his stbxw had a "friendly" relationship. When she realized he was serious with me, and when he filed for divorce, it all went straight to hell in a handbasket. Now I don't think he would pee on her if she was on fire.

Frankly, I wish they could get back to being "friendly" (though no joint vacations!) but that won't happen. He's painted black now.

He should just ignore her, or say, "I'm not comfortable with any plans like that" or something, but keep his distance. This too will blow over.

[sanemom]

Now I don't think he would pee on her if she was on fire.

ROFL!

The sad thing is my dh COULD be more amicable with his ex if she hadn't have done all the things she has done to him.  And she just does not see her role in the messed up relationship they have---it is all because he got married in her mind.

[tog]

In my case, she doesn't blame me, she just blames him for all the conflict. She continues to pretend that she wants the divorce when in fact, she does not (she thought both the custody evaluator and the co-parent counselor were intended to help them reconcile, apparently). She doesn't see that anything she does causes any conflict, it's all his fault.

I don't believe he's started the conflict ever, but he has certainly helped it continue. And whenever she does one of her BPD things, he takes it so personally and makes it all worse.

When we first started dating, she tried every trick in the book (including supposedly having "cancer" to get him to come back, but thankfully, she has never targeted me.

[Sickofthedrama]

It feels like it will never end.

I want to write a book of "BPDex-isms" about the misery my H's ex has been putting him through for years.

Recently, she has been switching back into the "family" mode, and taking more and more digs at me. I feel your pain. "You will never be a real family with her, we have children! That's a bond she will never have with you!" kinda sorta stuff. Sending photos of herself and calling me fat (shes a heck of a lot bigger than I am!).

This all came to a head recently when she revealed she was "engaged" to another man and the recently broke up. The harassment always get worse when shes single. The kids also informed us that shes been showing them a lot of photos from when they were a "family" including the wedding photos... .  

Lucky for us she started dating a new guy 10 days ago (just in time for Valentine's Day). I think her recent attacks on me were to see where he stands - a last ditch effort to get him back. When it failed, she got angry.

It may never end, and I'm learning from this site the best thing to do is ignore her. Any attention (good or bad) is better than no attention for her. She will keep trying. I'm years in and I wonder if it will ever end. Good luck 

[sanemom]

It feels like it will never end.

I want to write a book of "BPDex-isms" about the misery my H's ex has been putting him through for years.

Sometimes you just have to laugh because it gets so ridiculous.  And laughing at it is better than feeling miserable!

A while back, BPD mom was telling the kids and her family that she was moving back in town to get back with DH.  Mind you, we were married then (and happily at that)... .  I have no idea what she was thinking except she told the kids that she was skinny and pretty so DH will like her again.  It was pretty pathetic... .  almost felt sorry for her, but then she did something ugly and all compassion once again left the building.

[tog]

Yeah. When SO's lawyer told us that the custody evaluator said that SO's stbxw thought the purpose of meeting with him was to reconcile with SO, I actually felt sorry for her.

For about 5 minutes.

I'm so glad she doesn't target me, I don't know whether I'd still be here if she did. I certainly wouldn't want to know what she was saying about me. Are you in touch with her directly, Sickofthedrama, or does your DH/SO tell you what she says about you?

[Thunderstruck]

Recently, she has been switching back into the "family" mode, and taking more and more digs at me. I feel your pain. "You will never be a real family with her, we have children! That's a bond she will never have with you!" kinda sorta stuff. Sending photos of herself and calling me fat (shes a heck of a lot bigger than I am!).

Oh my gosh, is this the same BPDx?   . Yeah, she sent half naked pics to the SO friday night and spent the weekend calling me fat and a mess. Oh, and she found out from D8 the nickname that I call my SO and has been calling him that. 

Have you and DH worked out how to handle situations like this? The pics make me uncomfortable and I don't really know what we can do that would send the message to get her to stop (although from your post it seems like this won't happen).

[DreamGirl]

This might just be a vent, unless anyone has any insight... .  

I don't know what the trigger is for this (Vday?) but all of a sudden my SO's uBPDx is saying that she's trying to "be nice" and is requesting he do the same in the interest of their D8. She wants the three of them to go to dinner tonight and to the fair. She also says something like she misses the back and forth they used to have (but no she doesn't want him back) and I have brainwashed him into being a bad person (or just someone who no longer constantly bends to her will?). In alternating breaths she calls me demeaning names and calls him a bad father. What baffles SO is that she just called the cops (child welfare check) on him a few weeks ago while we were having Sunday breakfast, I guess that's "being nice"? Usually her texts are just "give me money" so this is different behavior. I'm suspicious.

Anyway, my suggestion (I guess my "brainwashing" was that he clearly state to her that they are not friends and if she wants to communicate it should only be about the D8. He tries not to be that harsh, though, because there's no custody order in place so she could withhold visitation again.  He's only a month and change ago started getting visitation, and it's EOW (hadn't seen the D8 since August).

A couple things I've learned and try to remember.

First and foremost, she's not going to change - only I can change my reactions and responses.

She's mentally ill and she suffers from a mood disorder. Her feelings are her facts - and just because we may feel that we are being manipulated does not mean that is her intent . (a Stop Walking on Eggshells reference)

Right now, in this moment, your husband's ex-wife really does want all of this. She wants to get along and do what is best for her daughter. She doesn't have the skill set to accomplish this. She doesn't know how to regulate her feelings of jealousy and fear (of you) or her wishing she had an intact family.

She may even be holding onto a fantasy that maybe just maybe if she makes you out to be awful, he'll come running back to her. Who really knows what she's thinking? It's hard to imagine the thoughts or rationalize someone who suffers from this disorder.

My guess when it comes the disordered soul in my life is that it just helps her feel better about herself to put me down.

It's what seems to be the biggest lesson I've learned, what she's feeling and how she's acting actually has very, very little to do with me - and everything to do with her. It's why she hates me sometimes and likes me other times - and I consistently treat her the same.  

I try to remind myself of that. I have the ability to empathize... .  and it must be just awful being in that kind of head space.  

Boundaries are about us. Boundaries allow us to live our lives by our values.

My husband has a firm boundary about being alone with her. He was accused of domestic violence by the mother of his children. He was accused of trying to reconcile with her (and where she called me to let me know) when they were discussing a child support revision. So his boundary is that he won't be alone with someone who is willing to make false accusations.

He doesn't firmly express that boundary to her by saying "I won't be alone with you! You make false accusations!" because that's not being true to who he is. So he just says "How about we meet at Joe's Diner to discuss x,y, and z- I'll buy you a burger."

So giving him advice to state "we're not friends, we won't ever be friends, only contact me about SD8" might not be a very productive boundary stance. If he wants/needs that kind of boundary, that's OK. If he wants to keep the conflict to a minimum, that kind of statement won't really accomplish that.  

My husband would look at that text and set the boundary (I'm not friends with people who treat me poorly and I only talk to her about the kids) by only discussing the kids and not responding to the digs at him (or his wife). He would thank her for the offer to going to dinner and the fair and that he wants to be friendly too - but let's not push it too much. He'd wish her well and to have fun with the Mommy/Daughter time.    

The goal is to keep it all the drama to a minimum - and that takes skills in not getting caught up in it. Which is what all most of this stuff is - an attempt to create chaos to equalize her inner-self with her surroundings. She's learned, over time, that my husband won't partake in it anymore (for the most part) like he did in the marriage. No more back and forth.

~DreamGirl      

[Matt]

My husband has a firm boundary about being alone with her. He was accused of domestic violence by the mother of his children. He was accused of trying to reconcile with her (and where she called me to let me know) when they were discussing a child support revision. So his boundary is that he won't be alone with someone who is willing to make false accusations.

He doesn't firmly express that boundary to her by saying "I won't be alone with you! You make false accusations!" because that's not being true to who he is. So he just says "How about we meet at Joe's Diner to discuss x,y, and z- I'll buy you a burger."

So giving him advice to state "we're not friends, we won't ever be friends, only contact me about SD8" might not be a very productive boundary stance. If he wants/needs that kind of boundary, that's OK. If he wants to keep the conflict to a minimum, that kind of statement won't really accomplish that.  

This is exactly the approach that has worked for me too (when I remember to do it like this).

[Sickofthedrama]

Are you in touch with her directly, Sickofthedrama, or does your DH/SO tell you what she says about you?

I find the best thing to do is stay away from her all together. He cant be as lucky because she holds the keys to his kids. There are times he has to see her and make contact. We stopped doing family parties, that all ended after the stupid comments, digs and humiliation she put myself and him through.

In the beginning (were talking years ago) she withheld a visitation from my Hubby because I and my child were to partake. She wanted it to be "family time" and my child and I were not invited. When I confronted her after numerous text message bashings about me over his phone (I grabbed the phone and sent a text back saying "This is ----- what is your problem with us being there?" it turned into her getting so enraged that she filed a restraining order on my Hubby (which was dismissed in court). We are both professionals and have reputations to uphold.  I learned right then and there the best thing was to stay away from her all together because she doesn't just get mad- she gets revenge   

Shes called the cops on him two times since, false accusations of kidnapping (when we were late an hour bringing them home from out of state) and breaking and entering (one of her children forgot something in the house, and went back in the house during visitation when no one was home. My hubby didn't even set foot in the house and the child was let in with a key). She will turn anything innocent around to make us look like criminals. 

My Hubby shows me all the text messages/emails everything so I can print them. He knows I document things for him well (since she brings him to court every 6 months for something else... .  ) so yea, I've seen just about everything. The only thing he did not show me is the one time she sent him naked pictures of her new boyfriend to show how much she "upgraded". I told him to save it for court, but he was so disgusted and mortified he deleted them. This was about 17 boyfriends back. 

I wish I could tell you it ends, but its been years and it doesn't stop. Sometimes I think she send him pictures of herself so she can trigger a reaction of him sending her some of me (thankfully hes smarter than that) so she can use them to do her worst.

We've cut the ties of communication down as much as possible. I learn from everyone on this site to do everything through email. That way its dated, can be archived, and you can pull it up quickly if you need it for the lawyer.

The best advice I can give you is to stay as far away from her as you can. If you see her and she greets you, simply say "hi" and no more. We do a public drop off but the ex still has her moments. I use to say hi, but now I don't even look at her even if we are standing next to eachother. It seems childish from the outside, but she cannot control her insults and comments. Even if I dont say anything back, she gains the satisfaction of seeing my face turn red.

[Thunderstruck]

The best advice I can give you is to stay as far away from her as you can. If you see her and she greets you, simply say "hi" and no more. We do a public drop off but the ex still has her moments. I use to say hi, but now I don't even look at her even if we are standing next to eachother. It seems childish from the outside, but she cannot control her insults and comments. Even if I dont say anything back, she gains the satisfaction of seeing my face turn red.

Staying away and not replying has been my strategy from the beginning. I used to just ignore the harassing phone calls/e-mails/texts/fb msgs/etc etc but it took a call from the police and a cease and decist to get her to (mostly) stop. I have been to one drop off (not enough time to take me home beforehand) and she mildly flipped out, not as bad as we were expecting although there certainly were insults hurled including the "c" word in front of D8.     It might not have been the best thing to do, but I'm glad I went. I know it upset the x but it also showed I won't be bullied by her, SO won't be bullied by her, our relationship is happening whether she likes it or not, and that includes me being around their daughter. Or at least that's what I hoped she would see from it. Apparently her takeaway was that I'm brainwashing SO. 

Thank you for the suggestions on communication, DreamGirl. I know I prefer a harsh and strict communication style but you're right, that would only cause more rage/conflict. It's difficult for the SO to be courteous to her, he is so used to the back and forth arguing that has been the status quo for so many years. Lately he has just decided to ignore the 20 or so texts a day she sends and only respond when it's about D8. I've suggested over and over he switch to e-mails but his reply is "she'll just write big long rants". I don't know, he has such a passive attitude sometimes that it's frustrating.

Don't worry, the texts are being saved for court. 

[newlymarried]

Wow, so I am not the only one who can magically brainwash people, who knew  BPDexw thinks I destroyed a happy marriage and helped my husband "rip her child from her."

[Matt]

I've suggested over and over he switch to e-mails but his reply is "she'll just write big long rants". I don't know, he has such a passive attitude sometimes that it's frustrating.

Those rants may be what causes the court to realize she has a problem and the child should not be in her care.

[Sickofthedrama]

Those rants may be what causes the court to realize she has a problem and the child should not be in her care.

Matt,

I hope you are right about that. That's good advice.

Thunderstruck, I really hope I am giving you good advice as far as ignoring her. 20 or so text messages a day is ALOT. From what I have learned from the MANY times we have been dragged into court by her, the judges never want to look at the text messages, but they will read the emails and look for times and dates.

Its a tough spot to be in, and yes I have felt like you in the past where I wanted her to see that I wasn't going to be bullied by her and I made my presence known. After all these years, I find that shes so crazy it doesn't matter how I feel about her at all. Its all about her hate for me and the jealousy that she will not have him back as long as I am around. She looks for things that she cause use against me in a fight with him, and works very hard to make him see the "bad" things about me (yeah, cause maybe her pointing them out will show him "the light", - you know like how she uncovered my secret mystery telling him that I dye my hair... .  oo    )

I wish you luck. I look forward to your updates. If you discover any solutions to the issues you face with her, please share. I feel like the BPDs in our lives are somewhat similar.

[Thunderstruck]

Thunderstruck, I really hope I am giving you good advice as far as ignoring her. 20 or so text messages a day is ALOT. From what I have learned from the MANY times we have been dragged into court by her, the judges never want to look at the text messages, but they will read the emails and look for times and dates.

I definitely think ignoring her is good advice. We were out of town and now magically D8 has a toothache and needs to go to the dentist immediately (why can't BM take her? No clue). Just her way of trying to say "you can't go away and have fun and ignore me, I'm going to cause a fuss". She does this with every trip. SO didn't engage, he's learning. 

Oh no, they won't look at texts? That's not a good thing to hear! All SO has are text messages and he thought that would be adequate. I was going to arrange them by topic and summarize (I'm the more organized of the two of us, can you tell? ), but not sure this would even be needed in mediation.

[pandadoll]

All I can say is wow.  I feel like I am reading my life in other people's words.  If I'm not the target my husband is.  It is always something and always someone's fault except hers.  I could go on and on.  I have to say thank you to all of you for sharing your experiences and thougths.  I feel better knowing that I am not the only one.  I hate that we all have to go through this but appreciate the knowledge and support.