interesting conversation

[griz]

So last night I had the opportunity to have a private conversation with DD's bf.  He told me that over the past few weeks DD's has been opening up more about her feelings and she shared this with him. 

"I am going back to the P because my mom thinks I should (little white lie, it was her idea, but thats okay).  I have finally accepted the fact that I have BPD.  For so long I didn't want to accept it and I feel very discouraged and sad because I have been on the computer alot looking up everything I can about it and it says that the only thing that helps is DBT.  I did this for 8 months and it didn't help and I am afraid there won't be any thing that can help  me.  I also have been thinking a lot about my behaviors and my cutting and I have been doing it for so long that I am afraid if I stop I won't know who I am anymore, that I will no longer have a sense of self. I have made some friends in school now (which she has) and I am always afraid that they will leave me, that for some reason they won't want to be my friend anymore.  I am feeling really scared lately"

Yesterday morning DD and I drove to school/work together and she told me a similar story.  I asked her how she has been feeling and she said she is sad a lot. I asked her why and she said basically the same thing that she is afraid since DBT is supposedly the only thing that helps BPD and it didn't help her that she will never get better.  She also shared with me the same fear about people leaving her, which she acknowledges is her fear of abandonment.  I told her that I love her very much, more than she will ever know and that although I wish I could fix this I am not equipped to do that and I think that is why it is important for her to talk to someone.  I told her that I had been doing some research about Schema therapy and that maybe this is something she could try. (Of course her initial reaction was, "That won't help" ) but I told her she won't know unless she is willing to give it a try.

I am hoping that this is a step in the right direction.  Today I am feeling so very sad.  I can't imagine what it must feel like to constantly fear that people will leave you. To live everyday thinking today is the day the XXX won't want to be my friend anymore.  To face everyday thinking today will be the day of rejection.  This morning I though about how it felt the morning I realized my husband was having an affair.  The horror that overtook me.  All of those feelings came rushing back.  It was months of living in constant torment and even to this day, though things are better I jump inside everytime he gets a text message.  I find myself constantly saying, Oh who was that.  I feel like I am always watching to see if anything seems odd. I find that when someone innocently makes a joke about affairs that it is like a dagger to my heart even though they have no idea. I went to bed one night knowing who I was and the next day I woke up with no sense of self. It has been 3 years and I am still not sure if I know who I am. So in some small way I can feel her pain and it breaks my heart.  It helps me to understand the pain our dear children live with everyday.  A feeling of uneasiness a feeling of fear.  The feeling of trying to understand who you are and fit in with the world.

Griz

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Reality]

griz,

Valerie Porr's chapter on Mentalization is very helpful.  I think Mentalization is a brilliant approach, as it changes interactions and communication in a fundamental way.  Watch Dr Anthony Bateman on You Tube. 

As well, many people with BPD improve with increased maturity.  

To de-pathologize somewhat, pwBPD are like the late-bloomers, the orchid children gone amuck.

These darlings also have many gifts.  I think it is key that they recognize their strengths, their unusual gifts, so they don't get stuck in their struggles totally.  These darlings will always be different, yet the uniqueness holds treasures.  There isn't one pwBPD described on this board, who doesn't sound fascinating.  There is a balance.  The more gifts, the more talents, the more complex the mastery of self.  

Musings... .  

Reality

[qcarolr]

Oh Griz - it is so hard when we get this time of openness with our child, give them the support they are able to ask for, then have to process our own pain. And yet, it is a good thing to have it spoken. Your D is taking some awesome risks here in sharing these ponderings - and that she is independently searching out info on BPD. You planted the seed of shcema T - give it time to grow.

Maybe she is also actually using her DBT skills here to manage her distress enough to do this questioning and searching and staying in an emotionally regulated place. It is a gift, you and her bf being here to listen and support her in such validating ways.

I think that as I read more and more that DBT will become the first step toward therapies that can lead to changes in the workings of the mind-heart-body connections embedded in our core neurobiological systems. Like Schema and mentalization. I am praying that my DD26 will come to a place to accept that first step toward DBT. I am planting seeds, sharing gently what I am reading. Encourgaing her to use the T that is open to her right now - baby steps.

qcr  

[sunshineplease]

"The more gifts, the more talents, the more complex the mastery of self."

I liked this line. It helped shift my thinking a little.   

[Reality]

sunshineplease,

It makes my heart happy to hear my musings are helpful a little.

Reality

[jellibeans]

Griz

What a conversation you had with your dd... .  I am blown away at how she opened up to you. Wow... .  really she made some pretty powerful statements... .  I look at this as really a good step forward. To accept that she is a pwBPD is really a major hurtle ... .  

As a mother is it hard not to hurt for our kids... .  I am the mama bear trying to protect her from all the hurt in the world but I realize I can't and further realize she needs some of those hurts to grow. Three steps forward and two back... .  

I am happy for you Griz... .  don't be sad... .  I agree with Reality... .  are kids are late bloomers... .  it takes time... .  some need a whole lot but keep going forward. Truly this is one big giant step for her!

[Senata48]

Reality

Your musings were very helpful. It gives me hope that things can get better.

[Reality]

Blaise Aguirre at McLean's Hospital describes adolescents with BPD as being 'insightful, empathic, caring and funny'.  He also talks about their extreme suffering.  The suffering needs to be validated.  Like creatures having been stabbed,  I think.  

You know, griz and others, learning is very spiral, isn't it?  The human mind picks up different pieces from similar experiences depending on... .   The same content presented at a different time or by a different person can have a profoundly different effect.  

I agree with qcaroir that DBT seems to be a good place to start; however, it tends to have a distinct cultural flavor to it, as do the other therapies and so I think Mentalization and Schema also play a very important role in terms of learning.  Mentalization is from the UK and it seems less contrived to me and more authentic, which might well reflect my own cultural bias I will admit.  In many ways, my son was more like a European by nature and it was when I was mentalizing with him that our conversations went to profoundly meaningful depths.  

I think this ties into cfh's thread about authenticity.  Maybe for people who are more logical-sequential the formulas work.  Maybe others need a more fluid paradigm.  

Dunno.

Reality

[qcarolr]

In reading the mentalization part of Valerie Porr's book, "Overcoming BPD", there is a pattern she proposes of working on DBT skills to become open to the mentalization therapy. As a parent I am beginning to percieve that I need to be a 'therapuetic parent' learning the skills and applying them within my family dynamic and within myself. Then I am seeing BPDDD responding to these 'therapuetic' changes in our family - she is using some of the DBT skills by mirroring them with me. She refuses to paricipate in anything called therapy - she has had so many failed attempts over her entire  lifetime of nearly 27 years.

What has changed in me so I am open to all this learning now? I was exposed many times to trying family therapy starting when DD was only 5 (after my own suicide attempt) - when DD was 15 and 17 through social services interventions in our family (due to DD behavior issues). Thinking on this today, I know some of it I have blamed dh resistance to anything mental illness - great stigma in his family. Over past 3 years, as I have learned and changed he is becoming more open to my sharing all this. I see him trying to do things in different ways.

Dh gave me a great analogy, from his experience base with electronics and his very kinesthetic-body based way of existing. He said this is like energy that is all around us all the time - so many kinds of energy waves. We can only become aware of the spectrum of the electromagnetic energy when we have a receiver and it is tuned to the proper wavelength to 'see' it. And everything is about energy, even what we process in our bodies and brains. So we have to tune ourselves to be able to receive, process, store, and retransmit the knowledge that is all around us every day. This gave me one of those  moments.

qcr  

[griz]

I am not sure if this makes sense but this is what I have been thinking.  DD and I went to DBT together.  We did group once a week and she saw her DBT therapist once a week.  I feel like I learned a tremendous amount in group.  I learned how my behaviors effect others and also effected me.  My best example is that I am not by nature a patient person.  I am admittedly a type A personality.  I don't have time to listen to people complain about petty stuff (or what I perceived as petty) so if being bad a validation was an olympic event I was the gold medalist.  If someone complained about something I thought was petty, I let them know just how ridiculous I thought they were being.  By learning to validate others I learned that I could validate their feelings while also continuing to have mine. My learning to validate others has made me a better person and I get along with others better. That being said, I feel like DBT is good for recongnizing behaviors and learning to deal with them in a different way.  In DD's case it was what she could do to distract herself from cutting, how she could change her depressed mood by taking at bath or petting the dog.  I have seen her try all of these and I think the reason they don't work for her is because she is not dealing with why she feels this way.  When she talks about her fear of abandonment, I don't see how DBT is going to help her she needs to explore why she feels this way.  So I have been looking alot into this Schema therapy.  I sometimes believe that DD has feeling so ingrained in her mind that she doesn't know how to change her thinking.  She told me herself that she is so afraid that her new friends will leave her and not want to be her friend and she also realizes that that is probably not true but she still thinks that.  I am hoping we will be able to get her to comply and go to therapy soon.

THE GOOD NEWS IS  dh and I were out shopping today and my phone rang and it was DD.  She said Mom Dr. P just called (this is the med doctor that she loves and hasn't seen in 8 months) he said I can come in for an appointment as long as I am willing to talk to him so could you please call him now and make an appointment.  I calmly said, sure no problem (I didn't want to act all overly excited).  About 5 minutes past and she texted me "well did you call".  Yes I did, he didn't answer but I left a message that any time this week we can get ourselves there.  "Thanks mom".

Griz

[jellibeans]

griz... .  it doesn't get better than that! Wow!

Well maybe there is something else she is not sharing with you that is causing her to cut... .  but seeing her P might just the right person at the right time to bring that out... .  big giant steps for you dd... .  

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[griz]

Okay so I have a really big stomach ache.  We are going to the P at 5:30pm today.  DD seems happy about it.

Griz

[jellibeans]

keep us posted  

[griz]

Well, we actually made it to the appointment and DD spent about 45 minutes with the P.  He called me in and told me that the plan they agreed on was that she would begin meds again (he prescribed depakote) and that DD agreed to go back to DBT therapy.  He believes that DD may be bipolar and that is why she has such mood swings.  We will start meds tomorrow and make appt with the DBT therapist she use to see.

Don't know why but I am sitting here hysterically crying.  I looked up Depakote and it seems to have a lot of side effects so I am pretty nervous.  DH just went and buried himself on the computer downstairs and DD is sitting quietly in her room.  She is a little upset about the label bipolar and I can understand that.  Alot to take in for one night. I think I have been on some level fooling myself for a long time and believing that one day I would get my precious DD back.

Good Night All and thanks for the support.

Griz

[jellibeans]

Griz... .  please don't be so discouraged... .  my daughter was on depakote for a while... .  I didn't see a lot of improvement and her P didn't like that medication at all and finally took her off. She was given it at one of hospitalization. That being said I thought she was stable on that med so I didn't see any problems but it did have side effects. My dd never complained of any thing but I understand your concern over this medication. My dd is on Lamictal 200mg and once she final got to her full dosage she seems much better.

I know this P know her but after one visit he is already making DX? Please don't get down... .  you will get your dd back she hasn't gone anywhere... .  she is right there. Maybe everyone had some preconceived notions of what was going to come out of the visit? From what I understand bipolar is more treatable than BPD... .  

I am not sure what you are disappointed about? What were you hoping for? I was so happy to read your dd was going to therapy again... .  I send a hug your way... .  rest tonight and tomorrow things will be better.  

[griz]

jellibeans:  I am not really even sure what I am disappointed about.  I am happy that she has agreed to go back to therapy. I think I am feeling a multitude of things. Seeing DD sad about having to take meds again and her fear of gaining all her weight back, dh seeming to detach from the whole thing tonight (maybe he just needs some time to digest it all), trying to figure out how to pay for the DBT therapy again.  Maybe I just need a little break from all that is constantly swimming around in my head.   

BF called to see how the visit went with P.  He always checks in with me to make sure DD is telling him everything.  He is quite the nervous sort so sometimes she won't tell him things because she doesn't want him to worry.  I told him what was going on and he said that DD did in fact tell him everything and she is sad.  Her birthday is in two weeks so he has decided to throw her a suprise birthday party  and he bought her tickets to see "Breakfast at Tiffany's" on Broadway (her favorite movie and her pet name for BF is "Fred Dear".)

Thank you for the hug, I am keeping it in my pocket today because I surely need it.

Griz

[jellibeans]

It is hard to see our children unhappy for sure... .  I think that is the hardest part about all of it... .  breaks my heart evry time some one is unkind to her.

My daughter didn't gain weight with that medicine but I know it is a side effect. Her P mentioned that in one of her sessions and that was the main reason she wanted to change. She worries about her weight and she is a size 0!

I am sure her sadness will pass and she is so lucky she has such a caring bf. Sending another hug... .  I really see your dd going to therapy and taking meds as a good step... .  stay positive... .  

[almostvegan]

I second that hug.

Sending you support hugs and love

aV

[griz]

Thank you all for the hugs and support.  I came home with the prescription last night and DD sat with it on the table in front of her for over an hour.  In the end she went upstairs to her room and never took it.  My dh told me to not bug her and let it settle in, somehow I think we might be back to square one.

Griz

[jellibeans]

that is good advise... .  let her come to it by herself and if she doesn't take it then her P can talk with her about it... .  

Do you know why she is so sad? Is it that she can't accept there is something wrong with her? Is she a prefectionist? Did she have a bad experience with meds before?

At one point my dd said she wasn't going to take her meds... .  in fact for a few weeks she had been fooling me and retending to take them then throwing them away... .  when she finally told me I cried and that reaction shocked her... .  she wanted to know why I was so upset and I told her"you might not be able to control a lot of things... .  your emothions or actions but the one thing you can do to help your self is to take your medicine... .  that is all I am asking of you is to participate in your recovery and treatment program... .  I think that hit home for her... .  she thought I would be mad but I was just so sad for her. she didn't expect that reaction. I know meds are the the answer to everything but it is a piece of the puzzle right now that is needed... .  I tell her that I hope one day she won't need any meds... .  

Give her some time... .  I hope she sees it is a way to help herself... .  

[qcarolr]

jellibeans - Sometimes it is scary when we are so vulnerable with our troubled kids. It can be used 'against' us. I am so glad that your D responded to it with questions and puzzlement. Maybe it will help her to have a broader perspective about meds as part of her plan for a better life.

qcr  

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[griz]

MN: I think she is so sad because although she realizes something is wrong she is still partly in denial that she needs help.  One of the things that has been pervasive in DD issues is that she thinks she is so strong and refuses to reach out for help.  Yesterday I had to pick something up at a store that was about 40 minutes away so I asked her to come with me.  On the way there she was pleasant and talkative.  She then started to complain a bit about the fact that she felt very manic.  Racing thoughts, speaking very fast, feeling uneasy.  So I said well that is what the Depakote is suppose to help you with, it will help to even out your moods.  I then asked her how her tapping was (this is a OCD behavior she had for a while where she would tap her finger when ever she had something bothering her. She would do this maybe 5oo times a day and I noticed that she didn't appear to be doing it anymore) and she said, Oh it is much better, I hardly do it at all. I think this manic feeling will pass also just like that.  I will be able to control it.  She has always been very honest about the fact that she does not like to ask for help and that this is very hard for her to do.  I am not sure why this is so.  DH and I have always been very supportive parents and there is no time that I can think of that one of our girls asked for help and we weren't right there so I find this very confusing. 

I also know that the weight gain issue is a very big problem so I reiterated that the P and I told her if we see she starts gaining weight she will stop the med immediately and we will try something else.  She said she is still thinking about it and she understands that we agreed to it.  So I am letting her think a little bit, trying not to push and as you said letting her come to it.

I hope she does.

Griz

[jellibeans]

That is a good step for sure... .  she is thinking about it and that is a good sign... .  I try not to get in a power struggle with my dd... .  if she know I want her to do something she will usually do the opposite... .  

Tell her you know other people who have taken it and their weight was fine... .  not everyone feels the effects of the side effects... .  

I think it is something about their personality that won't allow them to acknowledge fault in themselves... .  give it some time... it sound like she is really considering it... .