Best practices for men getting primary custody

[trappeddad]

I am new to this board and am gathering evidence to get primary custody of my 2 year old from the mom.   What evidence is most useful?   My SO if crafty and intelligent and a high functioning BPD.    I feel she will lie and manipulate to get her way in court.    Which is why I need to be very dependant on evidence.   

I do   95% of the work around the house (diapers, potty training, laundry, clothing, riding to daycare, etc.).    I have documented this, but she can always dispute it.    Should I show this to her before-hand so it cannot be disputed.  She has shown to others she is a visible mom, but not hands-on.    She will go to church as a family, is the daycare room mom, and financially helps.     Do audio recordings help?     The lawyers I consulted say I have good evidence but I want an air-tight case.     

My son's well being is paramount, so if I only get 50-50, I may as well get back with the SO.   His well being is endagered by living with her, as her verbal abuse is out of control.    I keep that in check by living with her and doing 95% of the parenting work.   

Will take any best practices men used to get primary custody.       Thanks

[ForeverDad]

Should I show this to her before-hand so it cannot be disputed.

You know this wouldn't work, don't you?  We call this a form of self-sabotage, sharing information and letting the other figure out a way to short circuit your strategy before you really get started.  Frankly, you need to keep your evidence and strategy very confidential or else your efforts will be sabotaged.

Or do you mean to tell her, then record her admission you're right?  Too many ways that could fail.  Besides, your job is not to convince the one who would sit across from you in a court setting, your job is to have as strong a case as possible to convince the evaluators, judge and other professionals.

In my case, my then-spouse was very oppositional.  Toward the end, even when she was wrong, she never admitted I was right.  And after we separated, she was quick to blame me for everything and totally silent - as though it never happened - for anything that was her fault.

Who takes your child to the doctor?  If you use daycare, who is the parent who has the most contact?

When I went to court my case started off on the right foot - and the wrong foot.  Right foor, my ex was arrested for threats of DV.  However, I didn't realize that family court often looks at parenting behaviors and ignores adult behaviors, as though a parent with lousy adult behaviors can be expected to also have okay parenting behaviors.   Your guessed it, her arrest and my protection order in another court were ignored in family court.  Wrong foot, afterward we went to family court and the magistrate's single question was, what are your work schedules?  (I said I worked a regular schedule - bad for me.  She said she 'worked from home' - good for her - except no one cared that she was currently blocked from the home since I had a protection order and the house.  She walked out with temp custody and majority parenting time - and lived in a battered women's shelter for a couple months.  All screwed up, but that's the legal system in most places.

It's as though the court sees it as, "Why shouldn't the mother have custody and default preference?"  Yes, it's not written down as such, the courts do profess to be largely gender neutral on paper, but the policies and procedures are written in such a way that mothers usually have the upper hand and the fathers have an uphill struggle.  Oh, and the courts are granted leeway in judicial discretion too.

You do have it right, you need to seek the best start to your case.  If you don't prepare well and have a capable, experienced and assertive attorney, then you could start out with a poor temporary order and have an uphill struggle to get the reality figured out.

Those are my thoughts.  Doesn't mean they're accurate, just my general thoughts as peer support.

[Matt]

First, I want to challenge your assumption that 50/50 isn't OK.  I have 50/50, and it's OK - my kids are doing great.

This is for a couple of reasons.  First, the kids have time in a calm, peaceful home where they are listened to and dealt with sensibly, and they have a parent who works hard to help them in every way.  Yes, they also have time in a home where there are problems, but they have learned how to deal with their mom and it works out all right almost all the time.

Second, over time, as my lawyer predicted, "50/50" has morphed into more like 75/25 or even more, for a bunch of reasons, mostly because their mom does better when they're not with her so much.  She cooperates in letting them stay with me more, and she even suggests more time with me pretty often, for a number of "reasons", or sometimes for no reason at all, just "The kids can stay with you this weekend" when it's her weekend.

Long story short, five years later, both kids are doing great in every way.  I really wish I had primary custody and they spent even less time with their mom, but to assume that 50/50 is super-bad probably isn't right.

But... .  here are some thoughts that might help... .  

Find out about Custody Evaluations.  Where I live, you file a motion, and it's usually granted.  Ours cost $5,000, which I paid, and then got half of it back in the settlement.  Took about 6 weeks.  You should specify that it will be a Ph.D. psychologist - not a lawyer - with experience doing CEs.  Also, specify that the CE should include objective psych evals for both parents.  That added $500 each to the cost, but it's really important.  And specify that the results of both psych evals will go to both parties, but only for the purpose of the case - not to be used for any other purpose.

The strategy is to get important information in front of the court, so the custody decision will be based on all the important information.

If your psych eval is pretty good (but nobody's is perfect!) and the other party's shows BPD or something similar, then you need to research how that disorder affects the kids.  The is lots of information showing that the kids are at much higher risk if they are with a parent with BPD who isn't getting treatment - start with "Understanding The Borderline Mother" by Christine Lawson, and research the footnotes in that book carefully.  You probably have to call an expert witness to get the information into the record.

Also, if there have been false accusations, consider deposing the other party, so she can be questioned by your attorney, under oath.  This will make her put her stories on the record, and then you can find evidence to prove she is lying, and make it clear that if you go to trial she will be shown to have lied under oath.

Finally - and maybe most important! - find your state's criteria - your lawyer should know them, or maybe they're online - or if your state doesn't have criteria, look up Minnesota's, which are the basis for many other states.  And develop a case based on those criteria - usually about 9 of them.  Show evidence that you are positive on each of the items, or if you're not, figure out how to get positive.  Put most of your effort into your positive case, but a little into showing that the other party is negative on some of the items.

[catnap]

Is the verbal abuse directed at your son?  If so, recording her verbally abusing him would be very useful.  Talk to your attorney about the legality of secretly recording her as it is not legal in some states. 

[asunder]

It is heavily dependent on what state you live in... .  BUT if your child is only 2, the chances are one in a million that you get primary custody, considering you are a man.  There is something called the 'tender years doctrine' that is followed by just about every court that I'm aware of.  Also, your chances of getting 50/50 custody are pretty slim as well.

I'd check out this site for more help in this area: dadsdivorce.com

[livednlearned]

Also, your chances of getting 50/50 custody are pretty slim as well.

I don't know about that... .  "The tender-years doctrine, a court presumption that mothers are the more suitable parents for children under 7, was abolished in most states in 1994."

Not saying there isn't a bias, but in some states, there are actually laws against the tender years doctrine. Like you said in your first sentence, it is very dependent on which state you live in. I think it also depends on the county, and of course, the judge. 

Not sure about your comment that 50/50 custody is slim... .  there has been a swing toward primary custody for men when their spouses are the breadwinners. And if trappeddad is the primary caregiver (hands on:  feeding, bathing, playing, waking and putting to bed, making doctor appointments, arranging for child care, etc), and can document it, and has a good strategy, good L, better schedule for parenting, then 50/50 is more than possible.

[livednlearned]

I am new to this board and am gathering evidence to get primary custody of my 2 year old from the mom.   What evidence is most useful?   My SO if crafty and intelligent and a high functioning BPD.    I feel she will lie and manipulate to get her way in court.    Which is why I need to be very dependant on evidence.   

I do   95% of the work around the house (diapers, potty training, laundry, clothing, riding to daycare, etc.).    I have documented this, but she can always dispute it.    Should I show this to her before-hand so it cannot be disputed.  She has shown to others she is a visible mom, but not hands-on.    She will go to church as a family, is the daycare room mom, and financially helps.     :)o audio recordings help?     The lawyers I consulted say I have good evidence but I want an air-tight case.     

My son's well being is paramount, so if I only get 50-50, I may as well get back with the SO.   His well being is endagered by living with her, as her verbal abuse is out of control.    I keep that in check by living with her and doing 95% of the parenting work.   

Will take any best practices men used to get primary custody.       Thanks

What does she do as daycare room mom?

If you're the primary caregiver, and it sounds like you are -- that goes a long way. Great that you have been documenting it. What is your son's bond like with you, and with his mom? Who is the person who takes your son to dentist and doctor appointments, and arranges his social schedule?

Are you both working full-time? The courts will be interested in your work schedules, too.

[asunder]

Also, your chances of getting 50/50 custody are pretty slim as well.

I don't know about that... .  "The tender-years doctrine, a court presumption that mothers are the more suitable parents for children under 7, was abolished in most states in 1994."

Not saying there isn't a bias, but in some states, there are actually laws against the tender years doctrine. Like you said in your first sentence, it is very dependent on which state you live in. I think it also depends on the county, and of course, the judge. 

Not sure about your comment that 50/50 custody is slim... .  there has been a swing toward primary custody for men when their spouses are the breadwinners. And if trappeddad is the primary caregiver (hands on:  feeding, bathing, playing, waking and putting to bed, making doctor appointments, arranging for child care, etc), and can document it, and has a good strategy, good L, better schedule for parenting, then 50/50 is more than possible.

I don't mean to be rude, but this is not the reality.  There hasn't been a swing toward men getting more custody.  There may be isolated incidences where it happens, but it is very rare and the odds are long.  I've lived it, and I'm living it right now.  Anecdotal evidence, case law, research, it all backs up what I'm saying.

[asunder]

Edit to add:

re- the tender years doctrine

From the staNPDoint of pretense, it may have been legally abolished, but it is most certainly alive and well in the practical real world.  Judges are granted wide discretion in family court, they can basically do whatever they want.  I've been researching custody cases for years, off the top of my head I can recall perhaps 1 or 2 instances where a man was granted custody of a child as young as 2 years old-out of thousands of cases.  There may be a few other cases where the man gets 50/50, but it is RARE.  It also almost NEVER happens without a prolonged legal battle that takes years and thousands and thousands of dollars.  This is the no bs reality.

[Matt]

Also, your chances of getting 50/50 custody are pretty slim as well.

I don't know about that... .  "The tender-years doctrine, a court presumption that mothers are the more suitable parents for children under 7, was abolished in most states in 1994."

Not saying there isn't a bias, but in some states, there are actually laws against the tender years doctrine. Like you said in your first sentence, it is very dependent on which state you live in. I think it also depends on the county, and of course, the judge. 

Not sure about your comment that 50/50 custody is slim... .  there has been a swing toward primary custody for men when their spouses are the breadwinners. And if trappeddad is the primary caregiver (hands on:  feeding, bathing, playing, waking and putting to bed, making doctor appointments, arranging for child care, etc), and can document it, and has a good strategy, good L, better schedule for parenting, then 50/50 is more than possible.

I don't mean to be rude, but this is not the reality.  There hasn't been a swing toward men getting more custody.  There may be isolated incidences where it happens, but it is very rare and the odds are long.  I've lived it, and I'm living it right now.  Anecdotal evidence, case law, research, it all backs up what I'm saying.

There is certainly still bias in some courts, and not so much in others.  I was told I had little chance, and I made some big mistakes and still got 50/50.  I think if I had handled my case better I probably would have gotten primary custody.

One big reason many men don't get primary or 50/50 is they don't ask for it.  I would encourage a relatively-healthy father, divorcing a not-so-mentally-healthy mom, to ask for primary right from the start - and this is one of the big mistakes I made - and make a strong case for it, based on your state's criteria.

Also, many men don't take advantage of all the ways you can use the court system.  We complain about it (and that's very valid!) when we should be focused on understanding it and putting it to work for the best possible outcome.  Let me give some examples:

* If Mom has made false accusations, or misrepresented facts, file a motion to depose her, and put her under oath before the trial.  Make sure your lawyer is prepared to ask her details about her stories, so you can gather evidence between the deposition and trial, to prove that her stories aren't true.

* File a motion for a Custody Evaluator, and specify that she should be a Ph.D. psychologist and should administer objective psych evals to both parents.  Make sure the results will be available to both parties.  Then when you see the results, research the impact of both parties' issues (and both parties usually have issues) on the kids.  Make sure you're getting the recommended help for your stuff, and find an expert witness to testify about the long-term risks to the kids if they are mostly with a parent who has serious issues and isn't getting help.

* Find your state's criteria for custody, and give your lawyer solid evidence that shows you are good on those criteria, and anything you have that shows the other parent isn't so good on those criteria.  This will be the backbone of your case.

So... .  to challenge the ":)ads can't win!" assumption - when dads don't get good results, how many of them have employed a good attorney and done all that's available to make the court system work for us?

[asunder]

I think what happens a lot of the time is that men run out of money.  All of those suggestions are very valid and they make sense.  But they are totally untenable for a lot of us (most in my experience).  Temporary orders can (and usually do) bury fathers with child support, maintenance/alimony, oftentimes paying for a house they are no longer allowed to live in, even the legal and medical bills of the X.  Add in the inevitable cost of legal defense against false allegations that so often accompany seperations and divorces from those with BPD, and most men go broke.  Then they have to worry about losing their jobs from missing a ton of time from court.  They have to rearrange their schedules for the purposes of the court battle.

Dad's CAN win, but it's very very rare to win when the child is only 2 years old.  Even when the children become older, it is an uphill battle usually (though not always).  Oftentimes lawyers will give fathers bad legal advice, based on 'path of least resistance', and many men get torn between doing what is best for the child in the short term and long term.  There are risks associated with fighting, too... .  especially when dealing with BPD.

For me, I'm fighting as hard as I possibly can, my child is only 3.  So far, I've gotten my butt kicked and I am only allowed to see her 3 nights a month.  But I do believe in the long run I will win.  But again, I'm willing to give up everything to win, and I expect to be bankrupt soon.

[Matt]

Oftentimes lawyers will give fathers bad legal advice, based on 'path of least resistance'

Yes, I saw this in my own case - my first lawyer - and it often comes up here too -  many attorneys are passive and figure dads don't want (or deserve) more than every-other-weekend.

One way to deal with that is by deciding up front what your objectives are.  Not always easy, because they have to be reasonable, but you don't get what you don't ask for.  In cases where Mom seems to have BPD, and Dad believes he can do a good job, I think it's best to go for primary custody, and maybe even ask that Mom's time with the kids be supervised.  Or maybe unsupervised but no overnights.  Don't be extreme, but make it clear that you see a big problem when the kids are alone with the other parent.

Then you have to make those objectives clear to each attorney, and note which ones spend their time talking you into lowering your expectations, and which ones focus on helping you achieve your state objectives.

My first attorney was the former - very little time spent figuring out how to succeed and lots of time spent telling me I wouldn't get primary custody or even 50/50.  My friends here told me to fire him, and I did, but I wish I had done it sooner.

My second attorney knew much more about BPD, and gave me practical ideas to move the case forward.  (Her ideas aligned well with what I'd been told by my friends here, mostly.)  We still made some mistakes, such as not subpoenaing the MMPI-2 results, and not calling an expert witness.

Picking the right attorney, and making sure she is 100% aligned with your objectives, is huge!

[asunder]

Yes, sir... .  you are absolutely right about that one.  I would also add that knowing the process and learning about what to expect are HUGE.  When I first went through this, I had done a ton of research and I thought I had a great case.  I thought I was informed, but I really wasn't.  My temporary hearing, I was expecting to present evidence, call witnesses, cross examine... .  you know, all of the things generally assumed to be a part of the legal process.  The last thing I expected in the whole world was what actually happened- her attorney just said "we are seeking full custody, your honor"- that's it!  And I was given about 30 seconds to make my case.  And I lost.  To this day I am still horrified that the legal system could make such a life altering decision in under a minute... .  especially considering that my wife's lawyer didn't even make an argument.

But that is the way the system works.

[livednlearned]

I don't mean to be rude, but this is not the reality.  There hasn't been a swing toward men getting more custody.  There may be isolated incidences where it happens, but it is very rare and the odds are long.  I've lived it, and I'm living it right now.  Anecdotal evidence, case law, research, it all backs up what I'm saying.

I respect that your situation was awful -- that's true for many of us here, for different reasons. I don't want to trigger you, but do want to give trappeddad encouragement that men do get custody of their kids. It happens. The question is, how do those men do it? You're right that money makes a difference. So does having a good plan and lining everything up as favorably as you can, hiring a good lawyer, and all that other stuff.

To your point about the bias, which is what you're referring to, I agree. This quote sort of covers what you're saying, what I'm saying, and what Matt is saying, about men even fighting for custody:

Fathers’ rights advocates say neutral statutory language has done little to change the courts’ pro-mother leanings. Moms are granted custody in 85 percent of all cases, notes Dianna Thompson, executive director of the Washington, D.C.-based American Coalition for Fathers and Children. She says the expense of litigation and likelihood of losing discourages many dads from even fighting for custody.

Things that make a difference to getting a good custody outcome, in no particular order:

What state you live in. Like Oregon for example, in which the default is joint custody.

What county you live in

The judge assigned to your case

Whether you litigate or settle

How old your child is

Documentation for evidence

The amount of time you spent as primary caregiver in the marriage (especially if you spent more than 13/hrs a week and document it)

If your spouse has a dx mental illness or substance abuse problem

How good your lawyer is

How good your plan is

How much money you can cobble together

The work schedule of the breadwinner (mother or father)

Matt's point is especially important -- fathers asking for and seeking custody. There is research that is encouraging for men seeking custody.

From a state of Massachusetts study of custody awards at the state and national level, in which fathers requested custody:

Study 1: MASS

2100 cases where fathers sought custody (100%)

5 year duration

29% of fathers got primary custody

65% of fathers got joint custody

7% of mothers got primary custody

Study 2: MASS

700 cases. In 57, (8.14%) father sought custody

6 years

67% of fathers got primary custody

23% of mothers got primary custody

Study 3: MASS

500 cases. In 8% of these cases, father sought custody

6 years

41% of fathers got sole custody

38% of fathers got joint custody

15% of mothers got sole custody

Study 4: Los Angeles

63% of fathers who sought sole custody were successful

Study 5: US appellate custody cases

51% of fathers who sought custody were successful

Today, only five states—Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi, South Carolina and Tennessee—have some form of maternal preference in custody statutes or case law.

However, statistics on custody awards can be deceiving, since most custody orders are uncontested or negotiated by the parties. A 1992 study of California cases showed that fathers were awarded primary or joint custody in about half of contested custody matters.

[asunder]

I agree with much of what you wrote, especially concerning the factors associated with fathers getting custody.  However, regarding those statistics- at best they are misleading and at worst, they are flat out fraudulent.  I am considered to have 'joint custody', for example, even though I only get to see my dd3 3 nights a month.  So the figures concerning joint custody are most likely irrelevant.

Also, what is considered 'fathers that sought custody'?  It's probably only those that went to trial or went deep into the legal process- meaning the sample size included only those men with the very best cases and the financial whereathal to fight the system.  The figures- especially those concerning '29% of men obtained primary custody' paint a very distorted picture that seems to say that men have close to a 1 in 3 chance of getting custody- when the reality is that the likelihood is MUCH WORSE than 1 in 3. 

[Matt]

Terminology... .  

"Sole" usually means the other parent isn't involved at all.  If you ask for custody, and you don't have some big problem, you'll probably get at least "joint" custody.

But "joint" doesn't mean "equal".  It could mean every-other-weekend or even less.

Many get joint legal custody - meaning big decisions (religion, medical, school, relocation, etc.) have to be agreed by both parents, or you get the judge involved - but one parent may still have primary residential custody.

And even if one parent - let's say it's Mom - has primary residential custody, that might mean 99%, or 51%, or even 50%.  In fact, Dad might have the kids every weekend, and be spending more time with them, since Mom's time is during the week which is mostly school and sleep (for school-age kids).  One parent could have 60% of the nights, but the other parent might have 60% of the non-school-non-sleeping hours.

Early in the process, we may see it as "One party wins and the other party loses".  If both parents want custody, and there aren't big problems with either of them, then it often becomes more complex - shades of gray, not black and white - so both parents can contribute a lot to raising the child.

[livednlearned]

This is trappeddad's thread, and he's asking for feedback about how to get primary custody for his son. I don't want to hijack it by inserting a bunch of studies and research, but just to be clear, what's motivating me is a core value I have about custody when one parent has BPD. Assert what you believe to be best for your child. Do your reasonable best. Work with people who support your objectives.

I agree with much of what you wrote, especially concerning the factors associated with fathers getting custody.  However, regarding those statistics- at best they are misleading and at worst, they are flat out fraudulent.

 

The stats are somewhat two-dimensional, like all stats. Not sure about fraudulent. Two-dimensional in the sense that we don't know why those fathers were successful, or how.

What we really want to know is: if the father has been the primary caregiver like trappeddad, and many dads here, and has sought sole custody, in how many cases was he successful? To my knowledge, there are no nationwide research studies that get to that level of specificity.

Also, what is considered 'fathers that sought custody'?  It's probably only those that went to trial or went deep into the legal process- meaning the sample size included only those men with the very best cases and the financial whereathal to fight the system.  The figures- especially those concerning '29% of men obtained primary custody' paint a very distorted picture that seems to say that men have close to a 1 in 3 chance of getting custody- when the reality is that the likelihood is MUCH WORSE than 1 in 3. 

One of the flaws of that particular study is that it doesn't specify the difference between contested vs. uncontested. And I don't think 1 in 3 is what the study is suggesting. It's just saying that when men sought sole custody, within the scope of those studies, those were the outcomes for men who sought sole custody. There are likely all kinds of reasons, including money, etc. for why those men were awarded sole custody.

But there are studies that do report outcomes for when custody is disputed:

When fathers do contest custody, studies show they win anywhere from 50 to 75 percent of the time. Maccoby and Mnookin studied 930 divorce cases in California in the 1980's and found that only 14 of these ended up before a judge. But of those cases, fathers won custody 50% of the time (Maccoby & Mnookin 1992).

Weitzman and Dixon found that in Los Angeles County alone in the 1970's, fathers gained custody 63% of the time (Weitzman and Dixon 1986).

A study by the Massachusetts State Supreme Court Taskforce on Gender found that fathers who contest custody in Massachusetts win sole or joint physical custody more than 70% of the time (Jacobs, 1997:11).

Another study in Minneapolis found fathers winning custody in 45% of the contested cases (Polikoff, 1993:11).

[asunder]

We are definetely in agreement concerning BPD and custody, especially regarding what's best for a child in those circumstances.

But I have to tell you, as someone that has been there and is there, the courts do not support child advocacy, at least when it is a man fighting for custody of a young child.  This is kind of like being in a relationship with a BPDso; you can explain it to other people, but unless the person has actually walked a mile in your shoes and been in a relationship with a pwBPD, they can't understand what it's like.  The fact is the courts wage WAR against men in this situation.  WAR that is waged by mediators, judges, lawyers, even by school administrators, police, and the medical community.

I don't mean to be invalidating, but the study you referenced is flat out not true in my state.  I can say this with the utmost confidence because I have done enough research by now that the number of cases I have looked at no longer represent an insignificant sample size.  I've researched and studied thousands of cases.

I am NOT saying that this gentleman should not try to get custody... .  not at all.  I am trying for full custody and I'm prepared to fight for years if need be.  But it is important to recognize the truth about what a man in this situation is up against.  The system is formidable.

[Matt]

Whatever the chances of success, we gotta do our best!

We can stand around trying to figure the odds, or we can share our ideas and experience to give TrappedDad as much help as we can... .  

[trappeddad]

Thank you all for the great information.  Good info to digest and investigate.    I am anxious to get this process rolling, but still needing a little more evidence first.     I feel the stronger my case, the less $ I need to spend.    And even though the process is stressful, I hope it is less stressful then the status quo (meaning the legal process is moving forward).     

Currently I am deep into potty training.    I am very supportive of him (as well as his daycare) in this process, and don't give him crap (no pun) if he poops in his pants or wets his bed.   He feels bad enough he has not masterered the toilet.    But my SO undermines me (and him) by yelling at him and threatening to punish him if he does not use the toilet.   I can never leave the 2 of them alone, so I can protect him from her wrath.    Also, she hates dealing with changing diapers, dirty pants, etc. (nobody does), so she refuses to do diapers, or dirty laundry.     Wandering if this situation will give me temporary custody, as i do not need her undermining potty training.     The child (and me) would have to leave the home he is used to, so I doubt it.

[Matt]

How you both talk to him at this age is really important.

Maybe you can audio-record how she talks to him.

The legality of recording in your state - you can ask a lawyer, or probably find the information online.  In my state, for example, audio recording is OK as long as someone who is present (you) knows it's being recorded.  (But video recording requires agreement from every adult.)

Definitely don't mention recording to anybody, except your lawyer.  Probably best to tell your lawyer only once you've got some audio that is really clear and shows bad behavior by the other party.

[david]

Recording may not be allowed in court but may be very helpful in a custody eval. Different rules of the game apply.

[Matt]

Recording may not be allowed in court but may be very helpful in a custody eval. Different rules of the game apply.

Yeah, exactly.

To clarify, there are a couple of questions about recording.

One is whether it's legal;  that is, is it a crime to record someone without their knowledge?

The other is whether it's admissible in court.

In my state it's legal - if one of the parties is aware of it.  But it's not admissible in court... .  except my lawyer told me that if it shows something really important, like an adult abusing a child, then the judge might admit it anyway, because it's in the child's interest for that to be known.

Any family law attorney should be able to answer both these questions, or you might be able to find the answers online.

[livednlearned]

 The lawyers I consulted say I have good evidence but I want an air-tight case.     

Can you tell us more about what you learned in your consultations? Do they know about BPD or PDs in general?

[ForeverDad]

Recording was my form of insurance, like a Stay Out of Jail Free card.  It was also a bit of a sleep aid, I was less frantic when I awake with heart and mind racing in the middle of the night, knowing I had proof it wasn't me behaving poorly.

In all these seven plus years, I only used two days of recordings.  One was the events before, during and after my initial 911 call, played in municipal court.  The other was to defend myself when CPS called me in for yet another allegation of child abuse.

No case is a slam-dunk airtight case.  For example, my ex had been arrested for threat of DV and had a case pending in municipal court.  Yet over in family court she walked out with a temp order of custody and majority time.  Was I stunned?  Yes, but over time I looked better and better.  So don't give up or stop trying.  You never know what will or won't help in your case.  The stronger your case is, the better odds the outcome will be favorable - or worst case, less unfavorable.

[Waddams]

Just wanted to chime in for the original poster:

I'm a man.  I divorced and went through a custody fight over a then 3 year old (was 4 when the case was finally done).  We both filed for primary custody.  My goal was 50/50 minimum.  I got 50/50, and I got the parenting time deviation which allowed a downward departure from standard child support guidelines.

But I had a plan, and I was able to use my XW's selfishness against her.  Basically, she drug out the case to try to stay on my health insurance as long as she could.  When it finally came up for open enrollment and I could get her off (almost a year after I filed), THEN she wanted to resolve the case.

Before I filed, she was a stay at home mom.  I used that year she drug it all out to establish a new precedent.  We ended up doing 50/50 or very close to it for most of that year after she moved out of the house.  So I was able to get the house, and get a new precedent that the child was already doing well w/ 50/50 in place.  The judge acknowledged I actually had a good case for primary as well, but went w/ 50/50 because the child was use to it and doing well.

The most important part of making a custody fight for a dad of a young child is to make the decision to stand up and do it, no matter the resistance.  All thru the process, my L, therapists, mediators, etc., they all tried to dissuade me to accept less.  Even with the evidence that I was better in front of them.  It made no sense, but I stood my ground, and I definitely got better, and my son got better, than what would have happened if I had listened to all those morons.

You have to be willing to stand your ground against the entire system, and know that you might not win, but one day you'll be able to look that child in the eye and say "I did the best I could for you." no matter the outcome, and that's worth everything.

[livednlearned]

You have to be willing to stand your ground against the entire system, and know that you might not win, but one day you'll be able to look that child in the eye and say "I did the best I could for you." no matter the outcome, and that's worth everything.

In my own nerd way, that's what I was trying to say  Nicely said, waddams.

[broken3]

Trappeddad,

Here is what I did to win custody of my children. Some of this may apply to you. And some may not. The key is documentation. documentation. documentation.

My wife had a false abuse charge issued against me and had me thrown out of the house for 2-1/2 months. I was able to retrieve the dates and times on my cell phone and print out showing I was not present when the so-called abuse occurred.

After 6 weeks of NC with my kids. I purchased a small voice recorder. My first visitations with the kids they explained of the horrible situations they were living in. No food,-had groceries delivered. mom would not turn heat on-had fuel delivered. was getting rid of family dog because she could not take care of-had dog food delivered. They were very boisterous and vocal about her new boyfriend. were angry that she could buy wine, cigarettes, get her hair done, get nails done etc. but would not drive them to visit their friends, or buy them snacks. They were embarrassed about being on the free school program at school. They were thrown out of my home 4 times and told to live with their father. She changed locks. And broke keys off in the other locks. So not even the kids could enter house unless she was there. Causing them to be locked out on sev occasions.

  I have a small contracting company. Which I have all my tools and office in the house. Since I was denied access to my office and tools we were losing money to financially support the home.

  I paid all the bills for those several months even though I was living in a hotel.

Armed with all this info. I requested a hearing.

The abuse charges were dismissed and an order was issued removing her from the home.

Although every day is still a battle dealing with a BPS spouse of 20 years. The children are rermarkably adapted and happy now. Not to say there are still some issues which we are working on with therapy.

Another thing I did was to make sure that every visitation I initially was court ordered to attend. I was there. Sometimes my wife would block them from seeing me. Sometimes the kids just wanted to spend time with me. She attempted to block any contact with my kids.

When the decision was overturned. I have advised all my kids that they could see their mother whenever they wanted.

For the past months where I have had custody she has only completed 16% of the court ordered visitation.

I have voice conversations recorded and transcribed. Usually they forgey they ever said something or did something.

Its all about them. When you deal with someone with BPD. they truly believe they are entitled to everything from everyone and the world owes them.

They will not take the time to document. Because they are always right. And have a higher than though perception.

  Once you are able to break down their lies, distortions, self righteous behavior through documentation. They get very agressive and in my case she became vocally agressive in court. Further confirming what i presented.

Hope some of this helps.

[broken3]

trappeddad.

I was just in court yesterday as my soon to be ex wife filed a petition to get back in the house. And attempt to get custody of my 3 children. It only took about 15 minutes to express her rage to the judge. Who told her to curtail her anger.

After she was losing. She literally broke down in front of the judge. And proceeded to break down in front of my S10. The judge witnessed all of it. And would not hear anymore. And requested she get therapy.

Sometimes you have to do nothing to succeed. In not trying is where we fail.

[Thunderstruck]

My SO hasn't gone throught the court ordeal yet, so I'm finding this thread very informative for us as well!

I found a website that gives lots of good information: www.deltabravo.net/cms/

I just read the article about how to go about accessing public records, which could be very useful to dig up "dirt". There are a few false DV charges out there that the uBPDx filed against my SO (one was on my birthday ) so those would be a good weapon for court.