Do judges even care about viciousness?

[sanemom]

At the counselor's prompting, dh was letting BPD mom about his upcoming counseling with DSD.

His letter was friendly.  Here was her response:

I love how you're suddenly so concerned about your relationship with the daughter you refuse to pay child support for.  Unfortunately, those of us who have the misfortune to know you,  see through your manipulative, self-serving and disingenuous behavior. All the counseling in the world won't make you a decent human, let alone a father or a man.

There's no way really for dh to respond.  Do judges care about this ridiculousness? 

[oglobaith]

no, in our experience Judges don't care two hoots about lies or truth.  The one we as grandparents had would not allow character references or testimony from other family members about the lies uBPDdd told.  I guess there must be some who do, but they are few and far between sorry to say,   

[mamachelle]

Hi Sanemom,

I think if you are writing a motion this would fall under "hostile behavior" or "unwilling to cooperate" .

I think showing it to your attorney or the counselor or the GAL would not hurt your case. I don't think the judge cares about this per se but if she is putting this in to writing I don't think her attorney would be too happy.

[sanemom]

Hi Sanemom,

I think if you are writing a motion this would fall under "hostile behavior" or "unwilling to cooperate" .

I think showing it to your attorney or the counselor or the GAL would not hurt your case. I don't think the judge cares about this per se but if she is putting this in to writing I don't think her attorney would be too happy.

Our attorney was not pleased.  He said he will show the GAL if the GAL continues to drag his feet in this matter (he contacted the GAL this week again). 

It is all projection--she is the one who would not pay child support for the kids for 9 years, and she still won't even pay her half of the medical bills that DH sends her (he has their boys FT).  And of course, she is very manipulative... .  sigh... .  

[tog]

In our experience, NO, they don't care. BUT, SO's stbxw is much more crafty than the pwBPD in your case. She is very articulate and would never be so blunt as that. With her N traits, she manages to twist everything to make it seem like SO's actions are hurtful to SS in a more strategic way that is abusive in an indirect way.

Plus, our judge really, really avoids trials. So in all cases, he's gone in and lectured them about how awful a trial would be for SS13, told them what he was likely to rule anyway, and they've agreed to settle for that. No one has been happy with it, which I suppose is their goal.

[Forestaken]

Nope, they don't.  One of the best advices I got from my T was "Judges have heard it all before, to them, it's just a finanical split".  Too true. 

My s2bxw and her sister painted me as the devil, I was up there by myself.  The judge said "I don't know who to believe, she receives $xx., he gets exclusive use of the house, ma'am get a job, come back in 3 months." then he got up and left... .  

[sanemom]

In our experience, NO, they don't care. BUT, SO's stbxw is much more crafty than the pwBPD in your case. She is very articulate and would never be so blunt as that. With her N traits, she manages to twist everything to make it seem like SO's actions are hurtful to SS in a more strategic way that is abusive in an indirect way.

tog,

This is her in rare form--she usually is much more crafty than this.  In fact, it makes me think that she must really feel trapped in a corner--how dare we get counseling for DSD and DH?  She has been fighting the counseling for almost a year at this point.  So either she is scared of them getting counseling OR something else is going terribly wrong in her life.  She is usually much better at making it look like DH's fault.

At least now the boys' counselor has an understanding of why DH tries to avoid communication with his ex.  The counselor is the one who proposed DH write about the counseling to show cooperation.  I think BPD mom had given the counselor an earful about how he does not communicate with her so the counselor was advocating in light of that. 

[DreamGirl]

It might help to see what your DH sent.  I only say that because sometimes it helps to get feedback from others on our communication skills. You said "friendly" - which is a subjective term. Was it "hey, even though you said not to - I'm taking SD to counseling for her and I."

Because that's what she heard.

She got triggered, because she feels invalidated and believes that him not paying child support = him not caring. (I know that's not true)

We all struggle in communicating with the pwBPD in our lives. A hint of invalidation can send my stepdaughters' Mama into a tailspin. My husband has become kind of a Validation Ninja - in an effort to keep her regulated at a certain baseline. When he can't help in "managing" that kind of baseline, he simply walks away (or ignores emails). That's the beauty of not being married to her anymore.  

This email may or may not help you in your court proceedings. I don't know. We all tend to get emotional about crappy emails that are about us... .  a Judge sees one hundred on any given day. That one is pretty mild (in my experience).

I can also tell that you are affected by this email. I only use the word "ridiculous" or "vicious" when I'm being emotionally triggered myself. (I was told to nix the word "ridiculous" from my vocabulary at one point by my therapist).

They're just words, sanemom. Coming from an emotional, fear based place by a dysregulated person. She's just operating at status quo.  

I pick up on a lot of anxiety in your posts lately. True? Not true?

Is this starting to get the best of you?

~DreamGirl

 

[tog]

Personally, I'm of the mindset that abuse doesn't deserve validation.  But I do think being brief and neutral helps avoid triggering escalation.

I get tired of the abuse and distortions too.  Those are the times I tell SO to keep her emails to himself and just fill me in on the salient points.

[sanemom]

DG... .  I think I only get here in my anxious moments, but this was not really one of them.  Fortunately, I am usually able to re-center within an hour of any anxious moment these days and just go, but this one just brought out Mama Bear in me.  First she attempts to smear my reputation, and now this?  Sigh... .  if anything, I am just frustrated that DH has formally requested counseling since last summer, and the courts are s l o w.  

Ok... here is what he wrote:

(mom's name here),

My att’y heard from the GAL and I guess the GAL is going to send a letter recommending that DSD and I start counseling.  This would be counseling for DSD and me together, I’m really hoping this will help our relationship along.

I talked to COUNSELOR, the counselor who is working with the boys, and she would be happy to work with me and DSD too.  Therapeutically, it would help because she already knows me and the boys, so she’s going to have that additional depth of knowledge of who I am as a father, and she’ll understand the family dynamic well from working with the boys.

COUNSELOR said she would be willing to carve out time on Friday afternoons when I have DSD.  She suggested that it could work if I picked up DSD directly from school on my weekends then we went directly there (DIRECTIONS TO OFFICE) before we start the weekend.

COUNSELOR also said her door is still open if you’d like to talk to her, and she is open to exchanging notes with DSD’s own counselor if that’s cool with you.

What do you think, sound good?

Thanks,

DH's name here

++++++++

I don't know--I just think she is triggered by the idea of counseling, but maybe I am just not seeing it.

[tog]

She's probably triggered by the idea that a counselor does not see DH as ALL BAD and her as ALL GOOD.

Why did DH say so much, if I may ask? I would have suggested: The GAL says that DSD and I will be getting counseling. I would like to use the boys' therapist. She is willing to work with both you and DSD's current therapist. Thanks.

[sanemom]

She's probably triggered by the idea that a counselor does not see DH as ALL BAD and her as ALL GOOD.

Why did DH say so much, if I may ask? I would have suggested: The GAL says that DSD and I will be getting counseling. I would like to use the boys' therapist. She is willing to work with both you and DSD's current therapist. Thanks.

The main reason he wrote so much this time is just because the counselor wanted to see what would happen if DH engaged "in the spirit of cooperation".  Now the counselor knows--I doubt she will request DH do that again.

[tog]

Ah. That makes sense. I'm sure she was totally triggered by all that talk about him as a father and meeting the boys' therapist, and their weekend together, and blah blah blah. Gah. That must have really set her off.

For us, spirit of cooperation still only means a few sentences. Otherwise, we get a manifesto in return.

[sanemom]

Ah. That makes sense. I'm sure she was totally triggered by all that talk about him as a father and meeting the boys' therapist, and their weekend together, and blah blah blah. Gah. That must have really set her off.

For us, spirit of cooperation still only means a few sentences. Otherwise, we get a manifesto in return.

Yeah, DH is typically pretty short and to the point (but sometimes we get a manifesto back anyway   ).  But sometimes i think when you are introducing someone new (counselor) to the situation, they have to see for themselves what you are reporting.  Like I said, I am sure when then counselor spoke with BPD mom on the phone, mom gave her an earful about how bad DH is at coparenting with her (and who knows what else).  I can't blame the counselor for suggesting DH try.

[DreamGirl]

DG... .  I think I only get here in my anxious moments, but this was not really one of them.  Fortunately, I am usually able to re-center within an hour of any anxious moment these days and just go, but this one just brought out Mama Bear in me.  First she attempts to smear my reputation, and now this?  Sigh... .  if anything, I am just frustrated that DH has formally requested counseling since last summer, and the courts are s l o w.

Fair enough.

Maybe I'm projecting - I was really, really anxious when they were in court. Not sleeping, not eating and freaking out most of the time.  

 

Ok... here is what he wrote:

(mom's name here),

My att’y heard from the GAL and I guess the GAL is going to send a letter recommending that DSD and I start counseling.  This would be counseling for DSD and me together, I’m really hoping this will help our relationship along.

I talked to COUNSELOR, the counselor who is working with the boys, and she would be happy to work with me and DSD too.  Therapeutically, it would help because she already knows me and the boys, so she’s going to have that additional depth of knowledge of who I am as a father, and she’ll understand the family dynamic well from working with the boys.

COUNSELOR said she would be willing to carve out time on Friday afternoons when I have DSD.  She suggested that it could work if I picked up DSD directly from school on my weekends then we went directly there (DIRECTIONS TO OFFICE) before we start the weekend.

COUNSELOR also said her door is still open if you’d like to talk to her that she welcomes your participation, and she is open to exchanging notes with DSD’s own counselor if that’s cool with you.

What do you think, sound good?

Thanks,

DH's name here

++++++++

I don't know--I just think she is triggered by the idea of counseling, but maybe I am just not seeing it.

Matt is really so much better at edits - but the above would have been my suggestion.

I also think we can validate - by not invalidating. You know she's going to be angry about the counselor because she fought it in court. I'd just address the facts at that point. Don't throw some fuel on the fire when talking about the importance of his relationship and role as a father. You know she doesn't agree, so don't convince her. Allow her some room to get used to the fact that she lost the battle and has to concede to the fact that DSD is going to counseling.

I think tog has it right. You can be cooperative without allowing too many words to allow triggers.

I might even have simply sent:

Mama,

The GAL is recommending counseling for DSD and myself. The COUNSELOR's name and number is: blahzee blah blah. Friday nights will be our regular sessions.

COUNSELOR has expressed that she'd really like to hear from you and have you involved. I would too, your role is important.

-Sanemom's Hubs


I know, I know. It works for us.

[sanemom]

DG,

First, I am impressed with your editing skills (not just the words but how you did it in the document   )  I agree--less is more.  Perhaps DH was trying too hard for counselor's sake.

I understand anxiety "when in court"--I was there a couple of years ago... .  I guess it has lost its power as this has been ongoing now for years, and I am doubtful we will ever be in front of a judge anyway.  I can't even see this counseling thing go to a hearing as her attorney lives over 100 miles away, and I doubt he wants to come up here for a special trip (not paid) explaining to a judge why counseling is a bad idea.  BUT I bet it "almost" goes to hearing.

Now it just feels like a game of whac-a-mole.   

[tog]

If SO included that last line, he would get back a long diatribe about how if he believed her role.was important he would have trusted.that SS tells her everything he wants and he would have believed her when she said counseling wasn't necessary, blah blah blah.

She probably made the CS comment because of him wanting a paternity test... .  

[DreamGirl]

Perhaps DH was trying too hard for counselor's sake.

It was a good effort and it really was "friendly" like you said. If my ex would have sent me that email on the same kinds of terms, I'd be open and cooperative.

I try to deal with "ex's" though like I deal with the kiddos. Different personalities warrant different communication skills.  Having empathy (trying to see where she/he is coming from) in relationships can really help in those skills, thus reducing the conflict.

It is also what sets us apart from the disordered souls in our lives - the ability to actually have/express a level of empathy and understanding.

It can certainly be a tightrope walk when it comes to a pwBPD. It's also not for everyone - some like to shut down communication to reduce the conflict. That's OK too.

I understand anxiety "when in court"--I was there a couple of years ago... .  I guess it has lost its power as this has been ongoing now for years, and I am doubtful we will ever be in front of a judge anyway.  

Maybe you could start a thread on this! Finding ways to center yourself and healthy tips on dealing with the stress/anxiety when in court?

If SO included that last line, he would get back a long diatribe about how if he believed her role.was important he would have trusted.that SS tells her everything he wants and he would have believed her when she said counseling wasn't necessary, blah blah blah.

Probably. Your Stepson's mama is pretty volatile.

It's a personal choice - and all it does is show a genuine interest that she be involved (which is what the counselor suggested). My husband actually does value her as the Mama of his daughters - and he tells her that often.  It helps their relationship and it really does contribute to her being less aggressive in her stance as Mama. I've learned that in the depths of who she is, all she wants is to be valued - like most of us - and by throwing a couple of validating statements in the mix, it really helps reduce the drama.

Not everyone is interested or cares about that. That's OK.

My husband also would help her if she was on fire.  

~DreamGirl

[sanemom]

Perhaps DH was trying too hard for counselor's sake.

It was a good effort and it really was "friendly" like you said. If my ex would have sent me that email on the same kinds of terms, I'd be open and cooperative.

I try to deal with "ex's" though like I deal with the kiddos. Different personalities warrant different communication skills.  Having empathy (trying to see where she/he is coming from) in relationships can really help in those skills, thus reducing the conflict.

It is also what sets us apart from the disordered souls in our lives - the ability to actually have/express a level of empathy and understanding.

I think part of the problem in this situation is that sometimes, and probably many times, that email would have worked and been received well.  BUT (largely due to limited contact), we do not know where she is emotionally, and it can become like Russian Roulette and he will suddenly get the bullet.  So I guess what I am saying is we are not always sure which personality we will get!   

Also, up until this email, all of the "fighting" about counseling has been between lawyers... .  it was hard to know with certainty that BPD MOM was against counseling.  I guess now we know.

[hell0kitty]

So far, in our court process, the only time we've been asked for this is when the evaluation happens prior to the trial.  I think that the only thing the judge really looks for is the CE's breakdown of he situation.  For instance, right now I am collecting a lot of depos and evidence showing that our BPD has a history in her past relationships of claiming harassment and false DVs.  The judge will likely never see these, but the CE will, and it will help him in how he needs to deal with her as her ENTIRE strategy thus far has been to play the DV victim.  Once we unravel that lie, the whole house of cards falls.

At the very least it will be good info for your therapist.