Contact During Separation II

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I have stated that UNLESS she make a monumental and unprecedented effort to reconcile that includes an admission that much of the difficulties originate from her behavior, AND she seeks meaningful therapy, I will not return to her.

unless she admits she personally has a serious problem and that her current therapist is now helping her with that.

As I have said, I will have nothing to do with her unless she makes a major apology, takes REAL steps to correcting the issues she has instead of demonizing me with her friends, oh yeah and she needs to get a job.

I will not be the one making concessions. 

You certainly do sound confused... .  

I think your expectations might be unrealistic.  Even if she said sorry and started therapy it could be months or even years till things get much better.  In the meantime there would be lots of chaos and requests for divorce, abuse, etc... .  you would have to make many concessions to have a chance at a relationship with her.

When I left my exBPD the first time, I set up boundaries similar to you.  She made the apologies, stopped raging, we started counseling together and on her own, she made promises and admissions.  I moved back in and it all started over again but worse... .  

You sound like you really want her back, maybe talk to her dad about urging her into therapy?  I dunno... .  if she is forced into it the chances of her sticking with it are slim to none.

[hithere]

I have stated that UNLESS she make a monumental and unprecedented effort to reconcile that includes an admission that much of the difficulties originate from her behavior, AND she seeks meaningful therapy, I will not return to her.

unless she admits she personally has a serious problem and that her current therapist is now helping her with that.

As I have said, I will have nothing to do with her unless she makes a major apology, takes REAL steps to correcting the issues she has instead of demonizing me with her friends, oh yeah and she needs to get a job.

I will not be the one making concessions. 

You certainly do sound confused... .  

I think your expectations might be unrealistic.  Even if she said sorry and started therapy it could be months or even years till things get much better.  In the meantime there would be lots of chaos and requests for divorce, abuse, etc... .  you would have to make many concessions to have a chance at a relationship with her.

When I left my exBPD the first time, I set up boundaries similar to you.  She made the apologies, stopped raging, we started counseling together and on her own, she made promises and admissions.  I moved back in and it all started over again but worse... .  

You sound like you really want her back, maybe talk to her dad about urging her into therapy?  I dunno... .  if she is forced into it the chances of her sticking with it are slim to none.

[Mike_confused]

I may not be explaining my expectations... .  I expect she will continue to think only of herself.  I would like her to get better, but I don't believe she will.

I am confused because her actions defy logic.  I know I know that BPD's use empotional reasoning.  My posts indicate that I am trying to understand what she is up to.  Apparently they came out as sounding desparate, which was not my intent.   I am trying to understand all this, not necessarily get her back.   In previous posts that for my uBPD wife to get me back would take the Hail Marry of all Hail Marys.   I do not see it happening.

[WalrusGumboot]

I do have one foot out.  That is why her behavior, even though I know understand it better than before, confuses me so by introducing guilt and my sense of obligation.  Even though I have read all i can about it and have been on this site for a couple months, her behavior in the last couple days absolutely blows my mind.

Maybe you are looking for some kind of justification for what you are doing? It would be too easy if she confessed she never loved you, or to reveal everything she did behind your back. Instead you are getting more push-pull. You are like the big fish that almost got away. She loosened the drag on the reel to allow you to pull and fight, hoping to wear you out so that she can reel you in easily later.

She will push all your buttons... ALL of them. She knows where you are vulnerable. Obligation. Guilt. She will remind you of everything she did for you and how you are now throwing her out with the trash. She will play the victim role perfectly that will tug on your heart-strings.

In your last post, you said "I would like her to get better". This tells me you are still in a very vulnerable position. You are subconsciously waiting for her to say those magic words to keep you from taking those final steps. "I will go to therapy" "I admit my problems and how much pain I have caused you" "I'm sorry" Etc.

Even now, almost a year since my divorce, I have no answers and nothing still makes sense, and I doubt it ever will. I know deep down I did the right thing, but I never got that moment of closure that relinquishes my brain of that nagging question, "What if... .  ?" I am counting on the passage of time to heal.

Be very alert right now to how she plays you and your reactions.

WG

[fakename]

a lot of great insights on this thread... .  i need to apply this to make sure i stay NC and dont go back if she comes begging.

hard sometimes cause i'm just as confused and sometimes hopeful, but i need to pay attention to reality

[Mike_confused]

Walrus,

I fish salmon too, and that is an accurate description for what she is doing.  I am looking for answers and asking the questions I have to clear something up in my mind:  is everything she has done to me been premeditated or is it that she just can't help herself.   Yes I would love it for her to capitulate and admit her problem.

I also know it isn't likely.   Nevertheless what you see in my posts is me second guessing myself.   She has been successful with her tactics in the past.

The advantage I have now, and the disadvantage my BPD wife is at is that I am educated regard BPD now.  During past push/pull and recycling attempts I was not informed.

[tuum est61]

Okay, the salmon fishing reference pulled me back in - my biggest is a 36 lb Chinook.  

Yes, this is really a "drag" Mike, but you need to land the BPD and move on. I'm not talking about staying or leaving - I'm talking about you getting to a point where you logically accept her "illogical" behavior. I've been absent from your thread for quite some time but see you as perplexed as ever about her yo-yoing emotions and actions.  

I went through this "stage" as well - really struggling with my W's bizarre behavior. I finally realized it was all up to me - hence my name. I stopped thinking about her feelings and actions and paid more attention to mine. What she felt, said, or did was something to validate, but not something to internalize and/or act on. It was something for her to own and me to stop managing. I see you still "internalizing" her feelings through analysis Mike. You need to keep working on NOT doing that, my friend. She survived getting to her surgery without any help from you or her "Christian" friends - did she not?   She's "surviving" your lack of a wedding ring too (as did mine - story for another time)

Keep looking after yourself, treating her as if she can do the same, and you will be amazed of the change that occurs - in you and your outlook on BPD.

[Mike_confused]

Tuum,

salmon fishing is a good reference... .  as far as her surgery... .  I did visit her twice during the two days she was in the hospital.   I was one of the few that did.  I brought her lunch and talked with her.  Nothing in depth.  I did it because I am the bigger person.  I don't talk as much as I do.  Not as much can be said for her new Church friends that talk a fantastic game.

She obviously, as part of her BPD probably, believes that a friendly or romantic relationship is more serious than it actually early on.  It has taken me a lifetime to get as close as I am to my few best friends.  She proclaims the same closeness withing a week or two.  It is just not possible.

I am getting to the point where I see her actions and emotions as something separate and distinct from me.  Time away has done that for me.  I am also thinking more about what I feel and want.  I DO still struggle with a sense of obligation.  My parents were and still are that way with me.   Of course, in a healthier relationship things are stable and consistent and there is give and take.  I have come to realize that my sense of obligation toward my uBPD wife is like the feeling I would have toward a child of mine in elementary school. 

Not good and I can't continue.  I am staying away.  I need to clear my head - it is working.

[tuum est61]

The separation appears to at least be allowing you to see the difference between obligatory codependency and doing something for her because you choose to do so. 

If you (and me) are lucky, so will our wives - but we will have to continue to do all the work in creating our own luck.

[Mike_confused]

I have to be honest... .  I don't think I will go back to her.  I do believe she is working her therapist to believe that I am the problem.  With that approach I am going nowhere.

[tuum est61]

I understand where you are at about your future with your W.

To achieve healing and peace from the trauma of a BPD relationship - regardless of whether you stay or leave - you need to come to terms with what you brought to the table. Codependency was one of mine; it seems to be one of yours.

So prove to her and her therapist that they are wrong and keep working on positive change in you.

[Mike_confused]

I am working.   Never thought I'd be codependent... .  never was before.  My uBPD wife saw the weakness or smelled blood and took advantage of it.  What actually brought this to a head between us is that I never fully tolerated her BPD abuse crap.  I would for a period of time and then she would switch tracks and I would call her on it.  never productive but it did keep her somewhat in check.  What it did not do was make the situation any better.

At this point I have nothing to prove to her or her therapist.  My attitude is that if she truly believes I am her entire problem and am all bad then she should leave me alone.  I am leaving her alone.  I can then continue to to be bad and evil and a poor excuse for a human being without impacting her further.

By the way, I do not at all believe the above things about myself.  I like myself the way I am and I really always have.  I feel much better without her - that is the sad part.  Her loss and she is ware of that I think, and she knows its coming.

I have said it before, but she pushed me too far - every man has his limit.

[ForeverDad]

I am confused because her actions defy logic.  I know I know that BPD's use emotional reasoning.  My posts indicate that I am trying to understand what she is up to.

We all have personality traits, that's what makes us all different, even interesting.  We're not robots off an assembly line.  Thank God for that.  However, if those traits become seriously unbalanced for whatever reason, it can put the person into PD territory.

A personality disorder is to some extent - I'll let the professionals decide how much - mental illness.  It's not that the pwPD drools, talks jibberish, can't think, or has to be institutionalized, it's that the thinking is dysfunctional to a greater or lesser extent.  It just doesn't make common sense.  With BPD the dysfunction is more evident the closer the relationship and typically the more private as well.  Yes, it can be described, categorized, even certain aspects, reactions and overreactions predicted, textbooks have been written about PDs, but it still doesn't make common sense.

"Understand what she is up to"?  Yes, you can do that to a certain extent.  To a certain extent there is "method to the madness".  But as soon as you think you have her figured out, she'll change the rules, the patterns, yet again and keep you off balance yet again.  Consistently inconsistent.  Predictably unpredictable.

So if you're trying to make her thinking, actions, reactions or overreactions make sense, they won't, not in that respect.  Well, not unless you want to join the club.

So relax, accept what IS, be open to gaining only a general framework of insight at best and then determine what you need to do to deal with that reality.

[Mike_confused]

Consistently inconsistent is true.  I am trying to understand as best I can so I am able to resist being sucked back in by my uBPD wife.  I have asked the questions in this post so that I can get assistance from others in seeing patterns of behavior that I have been too close to see.  Thanks to everyone that have given their input.

I am trying to prepare myself - I know, with sadness, that I need to divorce her for my own well being.

[Mike_confused]

My uBPD wife, from whom I am still separated, called me today to discuss routine business.  She then launches into me about me not wearing my wedding ring.  I told that why should I when she told me very clearly on many occassions that she wanted a divorce.  I also told her that why also would I wear a ring when she threw me out, again telling me she wanted a divorce.  She responded saying she didn't throw me out.  She also told me I should be wearing my ring until we are divorced.  I was told by her that I must never have been committed if I took my ring off.

OK, she forced me to leave although I now believe she never expected me to stay away for 2 months. She is trying to control me from afar it seems.   I do have to say that she is out of her ever loving mind if she believes I am continuing to abide by her rules... .  her rules... .  even though we are separated.

I admit I am angry.

[ForeverDad]

There is a Scripture, "Be angry yet do not sin."

So it's okay to be angry, anger has its place.  Anger is even one of the stages of Grieving a Loss.  Yet still be very careful that you do or say nothing that she could use against you.  Once she realizes she can't control you or influence you as she did in the past, she may decide to go on the offense and retaliate somehow, perhaps even looking for ways to trick you into sabotaging yourself.  Be aware.  Beware.

[Mike_confused]

Why would she try to control me if she wants a divorce, even with her BPD emotional reasoning. 

[Mike_confused]

I have such a hard time with the emotional reasoning of a BPD.  To tell me that I should wear my ring until we are divorced is illogical.  Completely.  I do know these folks afflicted with BPD are not at all logical, but still - she must know that.

[Mike_confused]

I am not sure how she could attack me actually.

[ForeverDad]

For a person with BPD, it's Control or else feel controlled.  Hers is largely an all-or-nothing world of extremely unbalanced emotions, perspectives and perceptions.  Sadly, she sees it as all for her or nothing for you.  Neither is in your favor.

[Mike_confused]

ForeverDad,

That sums it up.  For her to tell me I treated our marriage as a joke when she drove me out... .  literally telling me multiple times she wanted a divorce and then to go... .  it was a joke to her.

She is now attempting to change history by making me the one that left her.  She can convince her friends of that but I know the truth.  She will need to find another man to control her.  As much as I love her I will not be treated like this.

[momtara]

You are answering your own question.  She has an illness.  It doesn't always follow logic. 

If you still aren't 100 percent sure you want the divorce, you have to give her a clear ultimatim.  Put it in an email so she can't distort it later.  Tell her she needs to do the following things in order for you to even consider getting back together.

Are you able to see and talk to her therapist, so that he/she knows to treat her BPD?

It's good that you love her and supported her thru the surgery.  You also need to be able to breathe and feel sane.

I filed for divorce a month ago and it was only when I actually filed that my husband FINALLY went to a therapist and started to get the right treatment - this after five years of his lying in therapy, and so many other things.  Now I am kind of beaten down and don't know if I can become part of a team with him again.  I spent so much time tiptoeing around him and silently trying to stay sane.  He wants me back now because he's in therapy, but I'm confused like you.  Hang in there.

[Mike_confused]

Thank you... .  you said the most important word to me and something I have been lacking with her... .  TEAM... .  wow... .  that is what I want most.   and What I cannot have

[Mike_confused]

well... .  she... .  my uBPD wife ... .  called me again last night at nearly midnight.  She always calls me then because it is convenient to her non-working schedule.  I ended the call quickly.

She did manage to berate me yet again for not wearing my wedding ring.  I re-emphasized that I saw no need to do that since she was the one pressing for divorce.

The strange thing is that she repeated everything she said to me earlier in the day at least 3 times during the short conversation last night.  Maybe that is typical.

[tuum est61]

Repeating the same thing over and over is certainly the MO for my uBPDw. If I participate in her dysregulation, I will get the full "list" - ranging from my family hating her to me cheating on her.

Not buying her a good enough engagement ring and me losing my wedding ring early last year are also on the list.

The ring is clearly a big thing for her, Mike. It generally is for all women - BPD or not - is it not?  . Rather than attempt to justify or defend your choice to not wear it - perfectly "logical" in these circumstances, have you tried validating her concern with a bit of empathy and truth?  "I can see how not wearing my ring would bother you." "This is a very difficult time." "I'm not sure when it might feel right to wear it again."

And when she brings it up again, continue to show that you understand that it bothers her, but stop trying to attribute it to her "decision" to "force" you out. You made the decision to leave, just as you made the decision to stop wearing the ring. I understand your reasons Mike - they are valid and logical, but make sure you truly own these decisions - they are yours.  It's a critical part of your personal growth and will help you get through the process here - wherever it goes.

[Mike_confused]

Oh I can assure everyone that I have no problem "owning" my decisions to leave and not wear my ring. I have told her as much.   I also did validate the ring concern to her, saying that I can understand why she would be upset.

Funny you mention not buying the right engagement ring... .  I had the same thing in that I bought the ring she showed me she liked.  She then didn't like it and subsequently convinced me to trade it for one that cost 3 times as much.  Never again.

She will repeat and repeat and repeat things, talking over me while she does, not even hearing me actually.  Its is psychotic.

[momtara]

Yes, it is typical to repeat things.  Very frustrating.  I don't know if they even realize they're doing it. 

[ForeverDad]

I've concluded - as a non-professional - at some level they do know since it doesn't come out as gibberish.  Surely that isn't an accident or incidental.  Method to the madness, so to speak.  Face the fact that you may never know for sure to what extent she realizes what she says and does.  With skewed perceptions and values, extreme entitlemant and a deep neediness to be in control, almost anything goes.

I noticed with my ex that she had an excellent memory for those who crossed her path yet was either in Denial or totally silent when I tried to make corrections or state my case, ignoring my efforts to use logic and facts.  Ex's emotional and entitlement facts carried the day as far as ex was concerned.  It was like beating my head against a closed door that never opened.

In the final analysis, what's important is not her perceptions and behaviors, that's generally out of your control or influence.  What's important is how you set firm boundaries for yourself.  They'll have to be firm boundaries and periodically reviewed and adjusted, the pressure is like the ocean beating against the rocks on the shoreline, the loose rocks get swallowed up, the ones firmly anchored survive.

[Mike_confused]

The sense of entitlement and the complete disregard for my needs/wants/wishes shown by my uBPD wife toward me is astounding.   It is why I have separated myself from her for 2 months... .  and counting.  She is trying to get me back.

The other day she called me to ask why I haven't come to her house to see her.  I replied that she hasn't come to my camp to see me.  I feel no obligation to go to Rome so that I may kiss her ring. 

If her attitude and actions persist, and they will, I will file for divorce.  I have a draft ready to go... .  my attorney has prepared one.  I will no longer tolerate he complete lack of consideration and i have expressed this in plain language to her.  Funny how the switch flipped once we were married.  She has a childish view of what a husband should be and do - I said childish - and she will not deviate from that vision.   I also told her this and continued by saying that she will have to seek those qualities in another man.  She knew exactly who I was when we married, and yet she expected me to change.  No way.

It is a shame.

[ForeverDad]

The other day she called me to ask why I haven't come to her house to see her.  I replied that she hasn't come to my camp to see me.

And what if she does come to see you?  Then what would you do, what would be different about the relationship's future?  See what could happen?  Would that be basis to return to her?  Odds are, if she's not in intensive therapy for a long time, generally years, and diligently applying it in her life, perceptions and behaviors, you can't trust any claims "it will be better next time".

Is there a reason you're delaying filing?  What are the risks versus benefits to delay - or leave it to her to file seeking who knows what?  Financially speaking, the sooner you do it, the less the financial risk.  Since there are no children from the marriage (but she does have children from prior relationships) then proceeding with a divorce would reduce the risk of her getting you to come over, seek intimacy and get leverage over you with a pregnancy, leverage she doesn't have now.  Not saying it would happen, but it could, it's happened to others.  With a separation and a looming divorce, you can't trust her to practice reliable birth control.

[Mike_confused]

Pregnancy is not an issue.   She has teenagers from her first marriage.  I have said multiple times before that I would not even consider a reconciliation without a major major Come to Jesus on her part.   I mention the fact that she wouldn't come to see me to emphasize to myself the fact that everything with her is self-serving and one way.