BPD men-- How do they display traits differently?

[coworkerfriend]

Oh my gosh - I am reading this thread and every single post has something I can relate to and i don't even know where to start. All this hits so close to home for me.

So much about the pain and feelings they have of being the victim rings true.  The other night, he looked at me and asked me if I was going to cry.  Inside I felt like crying but I told him that I wasn't going to cry - that I just had a headache. Any emotion I show just angers him more - I figured that out a few months ago.

He tries to break me.  He says things to break me and as someone said, not just break me but hit me to the deepest core. 

[Scarlet Phoenix]

I have heard this partly explained that it comes from a feeling that you are stealing their victim role.

That is they are hurting and want to express their feelings by projecting you as the perpetrator. So once you start acting like a victim it contradicts what they are aiming to achieve "they are the victim, its your fault". You playing the victim is making them the perpetrator, they see this as unfair and it angers them further.

So it spirals further.

Removal from the spiral seems to be the only way to break this.

Pleading with them does no good, "as you are the one at fault and are just playing the victim". They expect this to be a ploy, as it is normal behaviour for them to play the victim, and will expect others to do so also.

Ah, this seems like a good explanation. In moments when I've been a sobbing mess on the floor, he has said to me things like "Are you trying to manipulate me?" or "stop putting on an act" and I've always thought "What are your talking about? I feel like I'm dying inside and you accuse me of pretending?" But seeing this explanation makes it a lot clearer.

[connect]

I have heard this partly explained that it comes from a feeling that you are stealing their victim role.

That is they are hurting and want to express their feelings by projecting you as the perpetrator. So once you start acting like a victim it contradicts what they are aiming to achieve "they are the victim, its your fault". You playing the victim is making them the perpetrator, they see this as unfair and it angers them further.

So it spirals further.

Removal from the spiral seems to be the only way to break this.

--------------------------------------------------------------



Pleading with them does no good, "as you are the one at fault and are just playing the victim". They expect this to be a ploy, as it is normal behaviour for them to play the victim, and will expect others to do so also.

Ah, this seems like a good explanation. In moments when I've been a sobbing mess on the floor, he has said to me things like "Are you trying to manipulate me?" or "stop putting on an act" and I've always thought "What are your talking about? I feel like I'm dying inside and you accuse me of pretending?" But seeing this explanation makes it a lot clearer.

Hi all,

I totally relate to this too - what a good explaination. I also cried and cried until I had an asthma atack and was told it was crocodile tears! Unbelievable! I couldnt understand how anyone could think like that. Now I think I know thank you!

Connect

[Take2]

It does really help to read these similar experiences, although it makes me sad we have all gone thru pain to this extent ... .  

I just wanted to add that my ex also never ever begged me to stay either... .  he has always been preemptive with any perceived slight and dumps me over and over... .  even when I don't think we are even back together... .  he still finds ways to dump me... .  

That is so ridiculous its almost funny... .  if it.weren't so painful... .  

[goldylamont]

waverider, thanks for the comments they are always insightful. and thanks others for sharing their stories also. there's only one time i can think of where i figured out what my ex was up to during an argument, and i have to say that i don't believe for a second what she was doing was projection or her really thinking she was the victim, she was just being plain evil and manipulative (this is the way i see it, you decide). much of the worst stuff for me happened after we broke up but still lived together. after a couple of weeks breaking up she (of course) started seeing another guy, even though i've told her this hurts and i don't want to hear about it she's going on and on and on while i'm washing dishes telling me how great he is, how she can trust him, he's great, blahblahblah, all lies, which i knew, but still hurtful. i was calm and told her to leave me alone but of course she doesn't stop until i reacted, even a little bit (i never exploded or anything), then she uses my reaction to berate me more.

but here's the clincher, and something i'm proud of myself for--at least 3 or 4 times in the previous year my exBPDgf would drop into this frantic/terrified mood, bottom lip trembling, body shaking, acting as if she were scared i were going to hurt her, then she'd beg me to leave "just leave! [crying] please, just stop!". and i would. i would never be able to stick up for myself or say my viewpoint b/c i never wanted to cross that line (and i thought she was dealing with some ptsd? issues). but something inside me told me this was fake. she came into my space, showing off about her new b/f and as soon as i speak up about it here comes the trembling and the "just leave... .  pleeease!". first thing i did was calmed completely down. instinctually i didn't want to give her an excuse to be afraid. second thing i did was calmly walk around her so that she was closer to the door than me and could leave if she wanted to (we had a small kitchen). then i calmly said something like "you're not afraid of me, you're faking it, if you're really scared then you can get the hell out of the kitchen. i was washing dishes and i'm not going to leave. if you're really scared, then you get out." she stayed her ass right there and finished making her coffee or whatever and i went back to the dishes. she went from her faux panic attic to being quietly hateful in a split second. see, i knew she didn't want to be told to do anything by me, least of all to leave the kitchen, that was her job to do to me.

it was unbelievable and it still hurts to know that my ex was consciously acting terrified of me, faking ptsd to control me, to stop me from expressing any rebuttal to her abuse. i think about all the times where she used this tactic against me and how i was forced to hold things in, thinking i had to b/c she was afraid. she wasn't afraid she was laughing at me. i'm saying all this for a couple of reasons--yes waverider i think it's an excellent point you make about BPD'er being angry when you take their victim role, but never put it past them that not only are they angry but consciously manipulating you when they are berating. the second reason is that, during this moment of clarity, i realized that if i were able to stay calm and not give her an excuse i could access my own instincts to challenge what i knew to be true about the situation.

i don't so much like the term 'detachment' in this regard as i feel in these situations you should not detach, rather i think it's important to be fully grounded, and present/surefooted/at attention, and most important calm yourself as best you can to parse through what is happening to you.

also i think while it's important to try and understand things from their point of view, at the end of the day you have to judge people by their actions. i know that much of the behavior of my ex had to do a lot with unconscious issues she had (victim/perpetrator/ptsd/etc), but even in the heat of the moment i realized at this point that sometimes people are just being cruel b/c they want to. look at what they are doing, judge that, it's impossible to know what someone else really feels

[Take2]

I just wanted to add that my ex also never ever begged me to stay either... .  he has always been preemptive with any perceived slight and dumps me over and over... .  even when I don't think we are even back together... .  he still finds ways to dump me... .  

That is so ridiculous its almost funny... .  if it.weren't so painful... .  

So after a rollercoaster week of hell with him at work... .  he yet again nailed the coffin shut on our relationship last night in a cruel way with me in tears and him going to attend the work happy hour that I wanted to go to but pathetically did not dare because it just isn't worth the insane accusations he will hurl at me.  Of course he spent all day doing just that anyway - and I wasn't even going!  So I decided go NC with him last night.  I did not check in with him, I did not text good night nor usual "I love you" before bed. 

I woke up and he had texted twice during the night as I slept.  Then I logged onto my work computer as I do every Sat morning to do a little work from home while watching cartoons with my daughter... .    and he was there stalking me online.  (Our system has an instant messenger that shows as soon as you log on or off).  He promptly pounced and accused me of logging on to be able to talk to some man at our company.  Turns out that man was working this morning also.  I of course would not have known that because I wasn't logging in to talk to anybody - I work EVERY Saturday morning to stay caught up on my VERY busy job - and my ex knows it.

Yet he clearly checked to see if that man was online and if I was.

I reacted.  I cannot take the absurdity of his accusations anymore.

And of course he went on to tell me how he can't handle this and blahblahblah.

As if he hadn't just dumped me over his delusions last night.

I'm so tired of his crazy behavior... .    it's sad and bizarre... .  

[Themis]

Honestly I think it's worse if the man has BPD an the female is the non or slightly co-dependant.

Why?

Because of the bias of a society where a hysterical female is more likely to get a BPD diagnosis, maybe even called unpleasant names.

A man isn't really called a whore or other things like that. If he does some of the BPD stuff it isn't looked down as much as a woman doing it. He might be considered a Casanova, or a man with a "temper".

People even seem to think that most BPD are women! I think society has very little patience for BPD women, but a BPD man is more likely considered charming, eccentric or just avoid the radar all together.

This is not helpful to the men with BPD either. It just enables them.

If I did the things he did I am sure I would be viewed as seriously deranged. It would not be  a "temper" or just something men do.

I'd be considered a game player for sure.

They also have too much pride or social conditioning to beg to stay or other obvious things... .  so this is more dangerous.

They won't make obvious suicide attempts maybe they will drink too much, or do extreme sports or risk taking and call it an "accident".

In general men are bigger than women, that stereotype is generally true. And the rage off someone twice your size is very real and intimidating.

The rage could be a big problem as it's less socially acceptable for females to be angry, but more for men.

[whereisthezen]

All great posts.  I can see my head nodding yes while reading through this thread even if in my heart and mind I really don't want to be agreeing! 

I think Themis said it best with men that have BPD, society treats men differently to begin with so they really don't know they are acting any different than just acting out depending on their symptoms: lying, cheating, not following through, procrastinating/delaying decision making... .  all of those actions can be seen on prime time TV everyday or learned from a nonBPD male at the gym, school, work, bar... .  you see. For women, diagnosis or realization of "unacceptable" behavior in society may be easier to learn or see, however the flipside for women is that I dont think the condition is much different for genders except in the way it affects them in society.  Depending on the environment, BPD could go undiagnosed in women as well.

Men can get away with poor, bad or limited behavior where women are supposed to act right, be right and seek perfection.  On the other side, from these boards both men and women equally are also the fixer when they are the nonbod seeking help or advice for their relationship, so then really it is most likely the same for BPD's of all genders to have similar symptoms, just the diagnosis or acceptance may be different.

This is just from what I have seen.

In my own relationship I know everything from social groups, to career, to public behavior is fueling the BPD at times.  Take away the social groups, career changes and endless travel along with a stable environment, the behavior and symptoms are slashed near 90%. 

All I want is honesty and balance.  This is difficult and an ongoing effort.  I couldn't be more supportive or easy going and interested/interesting, however

[whereisthezen]

however, I am one person, who's better half is always up, down or all around.  I can be supportive but where and when is the right time, right words and right feeling to express love and feelings that promote some sort of understanding and balance in our relationship?

That's the hard part.  If they change plans, delay or dont commit to plans, flat out avoid things based on their mood or feeling, it doesnt give much stability to even the greatest partnership.  Tough is when they disconnect from reality, when they don't feel what is actually happening, meaning their life or our life together and the everyday decisions and discussions that are needed to live. Not so easy, all I can do right now is hope to learn from you and keep myself very busy and centered and go from there.

[real lady]

Here are BPD traits in my uBPDh:

- black and white thinking - but not in all situations

- fear of abandonment - he abandons first

- mood swings

- push/pull

- silent treatment---not so much

- cheating - not on me that I know of but in past relationships by his admission (none, neither have I)

- substance abuse (GAMING)

- blames others

These are big ones for my uBPDso... .  

- hair trigger dysregulation quickly escalating into rage and threats

- UBER sensitive to ANY allusion to "he is at fault", "he is bad", ANY criticism or even a slight mention of any RESPONSIBILITY... .  instantly blame others

- TALKS AND TALKS AND TALKS and if I interject, state an opinion that "may" conflict with anything that he is thinking (I think he is SEVERLY BPD), he begins to dysregulate and upon "normal conversation", he gets dysregulated to the point of continual circular conversation.  so

- Will dysregulate IF I show that I am upset, ill, or feel "put off by him" with no words being exchanged.

I would say overall, of what I know in the difference of HOW MEN and WOMEN with BPD behave, I would say that women are more ATTENTION (drama) seeking and men are more POWER seeking. (control) Both seem to want constant RECOGNITION that THEY have been hurt, disrespected and anything that they do to hurt us, we deserve it for hurting them first.

[yeeter]

Hi all,

I dont want to digress into 'which gender is worse' type of generalizations.  

They are different, and men in relationships with women who abuse, manipulate, intimidate - have big enough problems (things like the fact that there is limited help for abuse on men, society doesnt even recognize the issue, men are already stereotyped as aggressive, dominate  people, the courts and legal system is heavily biased towards the woman - just try to get custody as a male... .  ).

If its useful and meaningful to stereotype then by all means.  But if not, then its just another way to play the victim (poor me I am a man/woman and we have it much worse than the other gender... .  )

For sure the stereotypes affect how we are each treated.  But the first step towards being treated equally, is to look past the stereotype at the specific situation, independent of gender.

ok ok... .  Im off my political rant.  Im certainly not trying to offend anyone and everyone has a right to their own perspectives.  

[Themis]

You're right Yeeter,

Especially about the courts, and if the woman is indeed abusive. Abusive, hateful, angry people are just sickening no matter what gender they are. Totally correct.

However, I felt it was important to balance the gender issues, as if you notice on the internet as a whole, there are so many angry, dumped guys out there claiming any highly emotional woman that didn't want to sleep with them or hurt them in some way is some kind of diabolical BPD woman.

In the literature too, it also says that there are more women diagnosed. But as we can see here there are plenty of men with theses traits, but a lot of the earlier books or knowledge focuses on women.

Sometimes you have to tip the scales in the other direction to get a balance.

In the push for womens rights, women had to go to extreme lengths to make this point and achieve it.

We had to have some iron-fisted feminists and women almost as, or just as bad in their views as the men they were pushing against.

Why?

Because if there is a huge imbalance you will not re-calibrate the scales with subtle hints.

Sometimes you have to throw an elephant into the room to get anything going. Then when the scales start rocking again, you can achieve some balance, fairness, and stop rocking those scales.

But until that is achieved someone has to raise the bar, and be a bit daring.

As I said especially in regards to sexual conquests, flirting etc a woman could be seen as BPD, but a man is simply being a Casanova, or even a pick-up expert, or some kind of hot-shot.

There really is no balance there. If a woman has many conquests she might be a "man-eater", whore, etc.  I think this trait is less noticable in men as broad society might say he is a stud, or just a player.

"men are already stereotyped as aggressive, dominate  people"---That's right! And this can be a big issue when in a relationship with an agressive, BPD male.

When I've tried to explain some things to his obviously biased family, they looked chargrined, and winced at some of his actions.

They said he always had a "temper" and made a long story about how some men are just like that, and that men are protectors, and anger is natural... .  any excuse to save the embarassment that their son is borderline abusive.

Now if I stand up for myself, and have raged back twice in the many years we have been together... .  oh boy... .  the labels I copped.

Anger is not acceptable in females.

This is certainly unbalanced. I was called every name under the sun by him, and I'm sure I would be labelled in all sorts of ways by an outsider watching me defend myself.

If I don't defend myself, he says I have no spine, I am useless, I am "too nice", I am unattractive.

So I tried to have some dignity and fight back... .  and this has him declare me some kind of hysterical woman that does not deserve to be angry.

I feel that is unfair, and I hear that from many women the emotion of anger is frowned down upon, we must be serene, graceful, loving, and anger just isn't "feminine"

Well I don't think anger should be assigned a gender, I do have the right to defend myself without being painted as a butch, a tomboy, or a nutcase if I get angry or show a little fire in my belly.

But people just aren't used to that, so of course I get slapped with the labels.

[waverider]

I think the earlier studies were based on addressing suicidal idealization in women, during the course of this it was discovered the root cause was often BPD. Thats probably one reason women figure highly. Another point is men can more often tend towards aggressive anti society behavior, and end up in the lockup for other reasons and so bypass the medical profession.

So is it more prevalent in one than the other? Hard to say, but probably true that females present more to the medical profession.

There are other reasons why women can often have more issues with unstable moods, these probably complicate issues, and lead to stereotyping.

I guess the real issue is are the differences in the way you can apply coping mechanism between men and women so they are better targeted? Otherwise if there isn't then it is not really all that important.

In other words what can be gleaned from this debate that is of practical use to us?

[yeeter]

I guess the real issue is are the differences in the way you can apply coping mechanism between men and women so they are better targeted? Otherwise if there isn't then it is not really all that important.

In other words what can be gleaned from this debate that is of practical use to us?

Exactly Wave.  In fact, escalating this to a gender rights issue can be counterproductive.  It takes the focus off the individual and specific circumstances, by lumping it into statistical mean of the stereotype.

Each situation is unique.  (in my particular case its my wife that is the aggressive, dominant bully in the relationship.  The stereotype works against me because its assumed to be the opposite).  Im just flagging the dangers of stereotyping based on gender - its pretty rare to have any characteristic that is universal to half the total population.

And Themis - I dont doubt for an instant that your husband is exactly as you describe.

[Themis]

I guess the real issue is are the differences in the way you can apply coping mechanism between men and women so they are better targeted? Otherwise if there isn't then it is not really all that important.

In other words what can be gleaned from this debate that is of practical use to us?

Exactly Wave.  In fact, escalating this to a gender rights issue can be counterproductive.  It takes the focus off the individual and specific circumstances, by lumping it into statistical mean of the stereotype.

Each situation is unique.  (in my particular case its my wife that is the aggressive, dominant bully in the relationship.  The stereotype works against me because its assumed to be the opposite).  Im just flagging the dangers of stereotyping based on gender - its pretty rare to have any characteristic that is universal to half the total population.

And Themis - I dont doubt for an instant that your husband is exactly as you describe.

Wave--there wasn't a debate until you described it as such.

It started as a curiousity to see if anyone else thought there were any differences. It seems there are, and many of the descriptions are spot on traits that I can see in my particular pwBPD.

A lot of the books are aimed for females with BPD so knowing the types and how it presents in males is helpful.

It is constructive to know the different manifestations so you know what you are dealing with, and why the difference.

The majority of the people in this thread are somewhat-to grossy abused females that  most likely don't get the chance in real life to stand up, stop doubting themselves, and have a little fire in their belly.

I felt that it is important to point of the biases of those studies, and this is a form of validation for what they are going through.

So many women are in a situation with a male BPD where as I said he just has a "temper" or just being a "man" (not a real man, not the real men I know are kind, and I love them very much)

It's not some weird attack on men that you need to defend yourself from or take personally.

I am pointing out that bias, removing the doubt some people may feel that this is normal behaviour for men, that women are the only "hysterical" emotionally unstable beings.

Some of the women here truly doubt themselves, you see a lot of low self-worth and blaming themselves.

They might be isolated from friends, and never even get to spend time with female friends that are in healthy relationships or single---to give them that support to tell them the things can can give her confidence.

That is like me showing up at a bucks night or men having fun out at a sporting game---putting my hands on my hips, wiggling my fingers at them going "tut-tut-tut!"

and then turning off all the music because I feel insecure about the stripper or something.

Sometimes people just get together and build each other up, remove doubts, and I felt these women needed to hear that, and it was good for them.

THAT is of very practical use, as what is more important than knowing she isn't crazy, it's not her hormones or her female issues, she is dealing with a male BPD, not getting out of the radar, and needs to get her own sense of self and sanity back.

I'm doing what a good friend would do in real life, but maybe with a good movie and a hug too.

Can't blame me for that. 

[Take2]

I agree Themis... .  I found this thread very interesting and useful... .  thank you!

[waverider]

I guess the real issue is are the differences in the way you can apply coping mechanism between men and women so they are better targeted? Otherwise if there isn't then it is not really all that important.

In other words what can be gleaned from this debate that is of practical use to us?

Exactly Wave.  In fact, escalating this to a gender rights issue can be counterproductive.  It takes the focus off the individual and specific circumstances, by lumping it into statistical mean of the stereotype.

Each situation is unique.  (in my particular case its my wife that is the aggressive, dominant bully in the relationship.  The stereotype works against me because its assumed to be the opposite).  Im just flagging the dangers of stereotyping based on gender - its pretty rare to have any characteristic that is universal to half the total population.

And Themis - I dont doubt for an instant that your husband is exactly as you describe.

Wave--there wasn't a debate until you described it as such.

It started as a curiousity to see if anyone else thought there were any differences. It seems there are, and many of the descriptions are spot on traits that I can see in my particular pwBPD.

A lot of the books are aimed for females with BPD so knowing the types and how it presents in males is helpful.

It is constructive to know the different manifestations so you know what you are dealing with, and why the difference.

The majority of the people in this thread are somewhat-to grossy abused females that  most likely don't get the chance in real life to stand up, stop doubting themselves, and have a little fire in their belly.

I felt that it is important to point of the biases of those studies, and this is a form of validation for what they are going through.

So many women are in a situation with a male BPD where as I said he just has a "temper" or just being a "man" (not a real man, not the real men I know are kind, and I love them very much)

It's not some weird attack on men that you need to defend yourself from or take personally.

I am pointing out that bias, removing the doubt some people may feel that this is normal behaviour for men, that women are the only "hysterical" emotionally unstable beings.

Some of the women here truly doubt themselves, you see a lot of low self-worth and blaming themselves.

They might be isolated from friends, and never even get to spend time with female friends that are in healthy relationships or single---to give them that support to tell them the things can can give her confidence.

That is like me showing up at a bucks night or men having fun out at a sporting game---putting my hands on my hips, wiggling my fingers at them going "tut-tut-tut!"

and then turning off all the music because I feel insecure about the stripper or something.

Sometimes people just get together and build each other up, remove doubts, and I felt these women needed to hear that, and it was good for them.

THAT is of very practical use, as what is more important than knowing she isn't crazy, it's not her hormones or her female issues, she is dealing with a male BPD, not getting out of the radar, and needs to get her own sense of self and sanity back.

I'm doing what a good friend would do in real life, but maybe with a good movie and a hug too.

Can't blame me for that. 

scratch the word debate, substitute discussion.

If you could draw up a short summary of helpful suggestions that could be used for each sex, that would be good. There are differences, some to do with BPD, others just standard gender differences. But what to do is what would be really helpful, what can you address and what cant you address.

Just attempting to focus an outcome to the discussion

[goldylamont]

Themis, I don't know if i agree that "society" at large would perceive a nonBPD woman in such a worse light than a nonBPD man. here's the thing, the BPD person, woman or man are master manipulators, and perhaps your BPDh has 'framed' things to make you unfairly appear over-emotional/hysterical/etc. and this of course is wrong and is playing on stereotypes. but, BPD women also use stereotypes against nonBPD men--accusing them of being aggressive/abusive when they are not, of wanting to sleep with other women when they don't want this. it's just as easy for a woman with BPD to use stereotypes against a man as the reverse. the stereotypes may just be different is all.

and, regarding how BPD is expressed differently by the sexes--i'm sure perhaps there is something to this, but from my reading so far i would say that most of the behaviors i've heard male BPD do were pretty much the same as what i experienced with a woman BPD. it's true though that a man could be physically stronger than the woman partner, so the raging could be much more scary in this situation.

to me though i would say that the differences in behavior, from my reading, tend not to be b/c of the sex of the BPD, but because of the degree of BPD (high functioning vs. lower functioning) and also more depending on who had the "power" in the relationship. what i mean by this is if the nonBPD person feels more empowered to end the relationship the BPD person may stalk, threaten suicide, etc. however if the nonBPD person is broken hearted and trying to make the r/s work or bring it back then the BPD person can be cold, spiteful, reel the non back in just to hurt them again, b/c they can. to me it's this r/s power dynamic (and how bad the BPD level is) that makes a bigger difference rather than sex, but that's just my opinion.

i've read plenty on here about the behaviors of high functioning BPD men, and it was pretty much the same as the behavior of my exBPDgf... .  

[Themis]

to me though i would say that the differences in behavior, from my reading, tend not to be b/c of the sex of the BPD, but because of the degree of BPD (high functioning vs. lower functioning) and also more depending on who had the "power" in the relationship. what i mean by this is if the nonBPD person feels more empowered to end the relationship the BPD person may stalk, threaten suicide, etc. however if the nonBPD person is broken hearted and trying to make the r/s work or bring it back then the BPD person can be cold, spiteful, reel the non back in just to hurt them again, b/c they can. to me it's this r/s power dynamic (and how bad the BPD level is) that makes a bigger difference rather than sex, but that's just my opinion.

i've read plenty on here about the behaviors of high functioning BPD men, and it was pretty much the same as the behavior of my exBPDgf... .  

OK goldylamont see the thing I bolded there in your quote... .  THAT'S what I really need help with this whole time. You are BANG ON THE MONEY! and Thank you!

You worded what I've been trying to say the whole time. I'm very excited about this.



This is exactly what happened. He was clinging. I had the better paying job, better position in relationship.

I was very happy with him, but due to his lack of friends or outside interests, I often lamented that we stopped going out.

I was happy with EVERYTHING even the "rages" as back then they lasted only a couple of hours maximum and were rare, and ended in us being closer than before) except not going out.

It got worst, I considered breaking up, but I loved him too much. So I lived with the fact we didn't go out anymore, and he had no interest in that.

I never told him my intentions to break from him, but I think he gathered that my lamenting, and obvious looking at things to do or looking at the window saying "what a nice day to walk and hold hands like we used to!"

But he'd sit there depressed (I have depression too!) and instead of going in the sun and feeling better, he'd rather stay home.

And I wanted to go out and date him like the old times.

So soon after that he broke up with me and our relationship went into a weird on-off phase.

At the same time the dynamic changed. I spiralled into deeper depression after being dumped, and lost my good job.

He was the main breadwinner, and if it weren't for him we'd lose our apartment-- (this is still the case)

THEN when I was relying on him for money, and now more clingy than him THEN his big nasty, game-playing self came out to attack!

Why take advantage? WHY the power-play?

He didn't leave but just told me almost daily that I needed him, and he was doing me a big favour.

Money was a constant topic of friction. He milked this point for everything he had!

My god, and he wasn't content with getting revenge on his previous neediness for a few weeks... .  he just kept it up, and up and up.

Enjoying the power!

Then I was basically on an emotional leash with him ever since.

I don't knwo how to get out besides try to get more money or something.

[waverider]

You have lost your sense of self and independence as whole person. Become co dependent, brought out the bully in him and fed it, now it grows fat on the validation of the bullying behavior. You still love the bully, you wont leave the bully. The bully is secure and free to do as he pleases. Bullying is power, it is a drug and wont be given up easily, especially if they have always struggled with feeling lesser.

[Themis]

No, it's more that as soon as I get some things in order I can leave the "bully" no matter how I feel about him.

It's just more convenient for both of us financially at this stage. I am well aware of the situation.

I have also said before if we didn't live together I wouldn't accept many things.

[goldylamont]

themis, thank you for sharing that. i can totally relate to the power issues. also, i have to say that the unfairness with these power plays is what really hurts. you mention that initially you had the better paying job, so it sounds like you are self sustaining, and that right now perhaps financially not too good, but you have the talent and skills to get back on track. and even though you may be dependent on him now (some financially, or for housing and of course emotionally it's hard to not be entangled) i believe you have the inner strength to separate when you can gain your strength.

i often felt that my past r/s was a power struggle. a power grab. it was very painful and perhaps we can start a new thread on power grabs. for me themis, i was more of the breadwinner in the situation--i have a solid job and am self employed. socially i have a lot of friends, i'm in two bands which keeps me busy and give me an outlet for my passion. my ex was supportive in many ways--supportive of my music, also she was patient with me when we were deciding to move in together. i wanted to buy a house and figuring this out took months which i knew made her feel like i was avoiding moving in with her. when things didn't pan out i followed through and we moved in together and it was great and i'll always appreciate her hanging in there.

however, especially towards the end of our r/s i felt strong power struggles coming from her. whoever she worked for loved her, so she was very employable but was still establishing herself professionally and finishing up her bachelors degree. in short, she couldn't fully support herself, so i picked up the slack with bills/rent, etc. i never held this against her or our r/s, the way i saw it it didn't hurt me too much to pay more in the meantime and i was looking at things long term--i'm very entrepreneurial so maybe in the future i would need to take time off and let her be the bread-winner for a while. in any case she still owes me some $$ but i don't expect her to pay it back (don't think she can) and i don't hold this against her--she isn't money hungry and i feel like if she had the funds it would make her feel even more powerful to pay me back.

ok, i'm wanting to talk more about the power struggles i felt. well, one was that my ex accused me of being controlling in our apartment and not letting her express herself. it was ludicrous i could never understand why. she had full control of what went on the walls, decorations, etc. i liked the way she decorated so was happy to let her arrange things however she wanted... i actually welcomed and appreciated her ability to do a bit of "homemaking". but she was very irritated saying that i was controlling her and that she felt like the place wasn't hers. all the big stuff was mine--the couch, the big tv, most of the furniture, bed, etc--but this was a financial thing, i could afford to buy these for *us* so i did. but i never wanted her to feel like it was all mine, i'm a man, many men love being a provider to a deserving SO, and i do, it was the way i was raised.

but nothing i could say would change her mind that i was somehow controlling the apt. or the expression of herself. towards the end i would feel her attempting to attack my confidence, or rather i would say she viewed any confidence from me as ugly, chauvinistic, narcissistic. my ambitions, for me, always included her, i just wanted us to get past our issues. but it seems for her that i was doing all of this for me alone and would leave her. so, she closed herself off.

regarding power, i would say that i felt and still feel strongly that my ex often felt powerless in the r/s. on two fronts depending on the time. powerless financially/career-wise, and powerless to make me stop lusting after other women (which just wasn't the case). i would say power-wise that the "power" probably went back and forth between us. i wouldn't say that either of us held the reigns for too long, which is perhaps why the r/s lasted so long (both of our longest, i know 4yrs isn't that long, but was each of our longest). i get the distinct feeling that when my ex would meet a guy and they fall in love that the guys usually fall completely for her and want to smother her b/c they aren't used to being with someone this physically attractive and 'nice' at the same time. i was actually pretty aloof and very independent--i fell deep for her also but i had plenty to keep me busy, plenty of friends and i would stand my ground when i felt wronged. also, i think i'm pretty rational when emotions are high so perhaps this helped, although i'm not perfect and can lose it at times too

after talking with my ex post-breakup, she said that during the first half of our r/s she felt like i didn't need her and that i wasn't going to be there for her long term. so she says for the second half of the r/s she never gave herself fully b/c she didn't think it was worth it. and i felt this coming from her, this made a lot of sense to me. i tried everything the last year before we broke up--tried to take her on several vacations so we could have some mending and fun time together, she avoided it all. i finally started taking weekend trips by myself or with friends, only to return home to her accusing me of cheating while i was away? I'm like "i invited you and you wouldn't go! now i'm cheating?" we'd go out for romantic dinners and she'd mention something she was learning in school... .  i'd give my opinion not meaning at all to be confrontational and she'd get nasty, start arguments in front of the wait staff. me disagreeing with her in any way was seen as a challenge to her intelligence, it was tough. she tells me she didn't go on the vacations with me b/c she was uncomfortable with me paying for things as she already owed me some $$... .  well, this would have been nice to know during the r/s when i often times tried to speak calmly about these things. i strongly feel that her insecurities regarding money and other women held us back from a lot of happiness.

in the end, regarding "love" and the r/s--my ex i feel had all or most of the power. i was the one pursuing her trying to get her back, to work things out. i distinctly feel that having this power or control was restorative for her, a way for her to feel powerful and worthy. i feel like having me pursue her like this was a payback for how inadequate she felt while in the r/s and i think she milked it to her benefit. knowing this, when trying to get her back, i made a conscious decision to give her all the power she wanted, to let her know i completely loved her and put everything on the table. it was my way of finding out, for real once and for all, what her intentions were. long story short, she reeled me back in for a few weeks then cast me aside like trash, in my opinion. but i take responsibility for this, i didn't want to look back and feel like i didn't do everything i could. and i told myself i was strong enough to accept the consequences of being so open and possibly hurt. well, i got hurt, , and i am strong enough but boy do it hurt sometimes. but now honestly though a lot less than before, the moments of pain are either less intense or occur farther apart...

power! 

[goldylamont]

themis, to summarize my last long-arse post   i think power-wise, that when the BPD doesn't have the upper hand power-wise that they tend to blame their SO's for their own feelings of inadequacy. her not being able to pay all of her bills made me controlling in her eyes. she went through a lot of pain assuming that i was cheating on her, felt as if she was giving herself to someone who didn't care and would leave. but, after a while when they (the BPD SO) gets the power, things are never quite fair. they will use the power to the full extent to feel superior and the nonBPD's feelings aren't considered at all. this seems to be what happened in your case too?

[Themis]

Yes, I guess so.

There was something I didn't like in your post... .  you said she owes you money... .  that doesn't sit right

Even though you don't expect her to pay it back, even if she didn't work at all full stop... .  if you lived there in that house and used those things that cause bills... .  well you'd have to pay that if you lived alone anyway... .  

Maybe slightly less for food and electricity, but still the majority of it anyway.

And if you didn't want to do it you should've just left.

I can't stand it when people make choices to do something they want to do, then turn around and say the other person owes them.

It reminds me of ridiculous court cases you see on silly television courts where a boyfriend will buy a girlfriend a boob job or an expensive holiday--then when the relationship goes bad---they try to get the thousands of dollars back.

I have to be honest here and say it's too late. A gift is a gift. Even "picking up the slack" as you put it is a gift as you did it by your free will. I think saying that she owes you money, owes her lover money must have been a horrible strain to endure.

I'm sorry, you seem really nice and well intentioned, but even the implication of owed money that this wasn't a gift, that this wasn't just what lovers do, the sense of "owing" can be felt.

Even acting like doing the person a favor or pointing it out isn't nice.


I feel if people are going to help, even in a nice "you don't have to pay me back" kinda help---they should "just do it" like the Nike slogan. Don't even point it out. Just help with no little comments that "it's ok" etc just don't comment. People don't buy gifts for someone else and add a note to the gift "it's ok you don't have to pay me back" that would just ruin the whole gift and turn it into a debt.

Debt is one of the most stressful things a person can be in. I don't think I could sleep if I owed someone all those living expenses, especially if they pointing it out with "it's ok you don't have to pay me back" it's a subtle way of pointing out they did me a huge favor. They could just say nothing.

Even as non thinking I owed my lover money would have been crushing to me, something I'd resent and think was utterly stupid. In relationships money is a gift, no one owes anything.

[goldylamont]

sorry Themis, you just don't know the deal. and i don't even know where you are getting the concept of "gift" from--we both gave each other plenty of gifts and neither one of us expected anything back from gifts, you're stating the obvious here.

i feel like money was a bigger issue in your r/s than mine. i'm not sure how you read otherwise, but as i stated, the money my ex owed me isn't an issue for me and i don't hold a grudge for not getting all of it back. she tried to pay it back, on two occasions wrote me a check... .  and i appreciated it so much even though it doesn't really come close to covering the whole debt. it really isn't a big deal to me. what did mean a lot for me was that i didn't want to feel taken advantage of, in yet another way. i know financially she was struggling so when she tried to pay me back i actually really appreciated the gesture. just feeling she didn't hate me so much to completely write me off without even trying was enough to make me feel better about it.

it sounds like perhaps you have dealt with some sharing issues with others. sorry though, i won't be gaslighted into thinking i'm the bad guy for helping my ex some financially.  it has nothing to do with the money and everything to do with how we spoke to and related to each other about it. if someone is feeling bad about their financial situation that's ok, and people make mistakes and sometimes lash out unnecessarily when they feel bad. forget about paying anything back, just an apology about lashing out would have meant so much to me. or the ability to have an adult conversation without immediately getting nasty and defensive would've been nice... .  ya, sorry i don't buy the whole story that i'm the bad guy in this regard. good luck with your situation though, like i said before financially i'm sure you'll rebound soon enough, the ambitious you that was there before is still there i know it will be so much easier once you have your own space to heal. hang in there

[Themis]

Goldylamont,

I had modified this, but the time expired... .  

I'm not trying to gaslight you or say you are a bad guy. I'm just saying why do you think she owes you money anyway?

It's nice she tried to pay you back, but why did she feel there was something to "pay back" I just don't understand that.

Under here I will put what I modified.

Also if a woman and man have kids and the mum doesn't work and is a "housewife" or even if there are no kids... .  do they have to pay their husbands back?

I am just trying to get my head around why you feel there was anything to pay in the first place.

That's all. My tone of voice would be inquisitive, not mad.

[Themis]

I feel after that I should point out what I think you did really well & things I can relate to:

"my ex accused me of being controlling in our apartment and not letting her express herself. it was ludicrous I could never understand why. she had full control of what went on the walls, decorations, etc. i liked the way she decorated so was happy to let her arrange things however she wanted... i actually welcomed and appreciated her ability to do a bit of "homemaking". but she was very irritated saying that i was controlling her and that she felt like the place wasn't hers. all the big stuff was mine--the couch, the big tv, most of the furniture, bed, etc--but this was a financial thing, i could afford to buy these for *us* so i did. but i never wanted her to feel like it was all mine, i'm a man, many men love being a provider to a deserving SO, and i do, it was the way i was raised."

Well my ex also paid for most of the big things, but because the place itself was originally mine, he never considered it his home. Even when he started paying for most things, he still thought of it as my home, and this was crazy to me as he had the majority of things, and if he really wanted to, I'd be left with what I started with, which was not much at all, and some things just stacked against the walls.

He never liked decorating, and the entire time kept his belongings in a very small space, never really spreading out over the place. Nothing I said could make him feel more secure or convince him it was our home. He kept saying for years "it's your place, it's your place" then the one time I blurted out something like "my house" instead of "our house" it just proved all his fears.

I really think this is sad, and I understand why it stressed him. It's really important for quality so if things go bad no one is left freaking out. I understand him; I just wish I could have found a way to make him feel at ease. I'm sort of glad now the "it's your home" theory remains, as with him paying for most of the rent... .  if he didn't think I somehow controlled the invisible government of the walls of the house, then I'd be screwed and kicked out by now. I guess it’s your turn to be sickened by me thinking that now! :-)

"she felt like i didn't need her and that i wasn't going to be there for her long term. so she says for the second half of the r/s she never gave herself fully b/c she didn't think it was worth it."

But she's right.  :'( You didn't need her. You had a great job, many friends, things to do, independence, aloofness... .  

This would trigger abandonment big time. I think the "ideal" mate for a person with BPD has to have at least some needs like the BPD.

Ironically, that person is me, and when they find those needs that can exploit them, hence the power play.

But without those needs in the mate, they can't get close either because that is terrifying to them.

In fact in some ways I'd feel of no help to a guy like you that is already doing so well. Nothing wrong with it, but sometimes I'd wonder what my purpose was.

I'm used to relationships where there is some kind of balance to the other person. If you have everything you need in your life, I'd question my point, my meaning, and my contribution.

That's not your fault, but it would take a toll on anyone not as together as yourself.

It's like dating a celebrity that didn't have any drug or emotional issues... .  what the ordinary person would do for them, beside be a cherry on top of an already fantastic life?

I guess in you exgf case she doesn't just want to be the cherry on top of your happiness... .  she wanted to be the entire sundae! (I’m just using her perspective)

I don't want to be the entire sundae (too much pressure) but a bit more needed than a cherry.

I know that's not how you see it... .  but may give you some insight. My intuition says this will be ok to say to you. Another guy may feel insulted. I think you'll get the insight.

"i tried everything the last year before we broke up--tried to take her on several vacations so we could have some mending and fun time together, she avoided it all. i finally started taking weekend trips by myself or with friends, only to return home to her accusing me of cheating while i was away? I'm like "i invited you and you wouldn't go! now i'm cheating?" we'd go out for romantic dinners and she'd mention something she was learning in school... .  i'd give my opinion not meaning at all to be confrontational and she'd get nasty, start arguments in front of the wait staff. me disagreeing with her in any way was seen as a challenge to her intelligence, it was tough. she tells me she didn't go on the vacations with me b/c she was uncomfortable with me paying for things as she already owed me some $$... .  well, this would have been nice to know during the r/s when i often times tried to speak calmly about these things. i strongly feel that her insecurities regarding money and other women held us back from a lot of happiness. "

:'( That is just sad. That is really sad actually!

The cheating... .  oh brother... .  my ex never said I was cheating but he's confusing. He hated me around the house all the time, as I am a homebody with few friends. Then I'd have some friends, go out or speak to them on the phone and he felt left out or jealous. Then I'd invite him to come along he'd say NO. So I couldn't win there.

Later when he had friends he didn't even invite me, or begrudgingly invite me, and I'd have the feeling of being a tag-along. I went through a lot of loneliness, seeing I stopped talking to a lot of friends, then he got a lot of his own, then I had barely anyone.

You are right, when it is in their hands they don't play fair, but we still feel sorry for them when they don't have any power themselves. This is called having a kind heart.

Don't ever change your kind heart.

As for what she was studying... .  I don't know the full story here, but I can guess why she did this. You already earn more than her; have more friends and stability in your life.

The one thing she is proud of is her studies or job. Then ANY (even imagined) slight against that would hurt deeply, because then it's like taking away the one thing she feels she is contributing with, and doing well with. (even though you are just making conversation, I’m exploring the BPD perspective)

"in the end, regarding "love" and the r/s--my ex i feel had all or most of the power. i was the one pursuing her trying to get her back, to work things out. i distinctly feel that having this power or control was restorative for her, a way for her to feel powerful and worthy. i feel like having me pursue her like this was a payback for how inadequate she felt while in the r/s and i think she milked it to her benefit."

Wow that is very deep, and I am getting so much out of your post. In my relationship that paragraph could apply to both of us!

I had more friends than him at first... .  but that was years ago... .  but maybe he feels like he took that back now, always going out and me alone most weekends... .  

Do they really hold a grudge that long?

Visa-versa... .  after what he's put me through if he ever wanted to be with me again. I’d be so wary of being discarded again or left in the powerless position, I'd have to be really secure in my life, and also make him jump through so many hoops just to be sure he wasn't playing games or reeling me in.

I think it, because he kicked my ego so badly, and I feel he needs empathy. It’s a just a thought, however a jilted pwBPD would act out that thought.

"i made a conscious decision to give her all the power she wanted, to let her know i completely loved her and put everything on the table. it was my way of finding out, for real once and for all, what her intentions were. long story short, she reeled me back in for a few weeks then cast me aside like trash, in my opinion. but i take responsibility for this, i didn't want to look back and feel like i didn't do everything i could. and i told myself i was strong enough to accept the consequences of being so open and possibly hurt. well, i got hurt, , and i am strong enough smiley but boy do it hurt sometimes. "

That was the right thing to do, as honesty is the best way to go, and at least you know what she really is. At least you did everything. In future you maybe put all your cards on the table with someone else, and they will respond to it kindly.

[GreenMango]

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