Being pulled back in.

[winnie]

  I haven't posted in awhile. I haven't had contact with my U daughter since July last year. No shared vacation at the lake with herself and my grandchildren that was sabotaged. No spending time with her on her birthday or Christmas at my house with her sisters or my birthday. Now it starts again. After the move from forclosure. She is feeling lost and uncertain. She is reaching out for comfort, for guidance, for love. She is six years old again and I am trying not to be pulled back. Her therapist informed me it was not my "job" to fix her. I stepped back. The ambiguous loss is hard. Family doesn't really understand. She is 40 now and still 13. I is hard for me to risk my heart and I know I have to follow a different path. I can't expend the emotional energy to help her. I also know now nothing I do makes a difference. It is a terrible way to feel as a parent. It was a very long and tortuous journey getting to a place I don't want to be. For those of us struggling as parents who day after day sleep deprived,lonely,sad,angry,despairing,hopeful you know the journey. Thank you for caring and for the comfort you bring.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[griz]

Hi Winnie:

I am sorry you haven't gotten to spend time with your daughter.  Knowing that we can only help them so much is a terrible way for a parent to feel.  I find it so hard when my DD regresses and seems so needy to pull back and not try to step in and make things right.  I wish there was a magical way we could distance ourselves from this mess but instead we get the sleepless nights, the anger, the lonliness and the hurt.  I am glad that we can be there for each other.

I will send good thoughts your way.

Griz

[twojaybirds]

That empty feeling is so hard to name and honor.  It is almost unexplainable.

Parents go through developmental stages of parenting; the final is seeing our children independent and happy.

When we have a child with any type of disabiltiy that misdirects this natural process we feel a loss, an unatural feeling of parenting. 

Allow yourself to grieve.  It is a loss.

[Eclaire5]

Yes, and what a loss. The dreams we had of having a normal, reciprocal and fulfilling relationship with our adult children is denied to us and instead we always have to make judgment calls and determine if we should step in or not when they need us. I can imagine how much you would like to help her and make things right, but we all know that the more we enable them the more they regress and the more irresponsible they become. You are making the right choice.

[Being Mindful]

That empty feeling is so hard to name and honor.  It is almost unexplainable.

Parents go through developmental stages of parenting; the final is seeing our children independent and happy.

When we have a child with any type of disabiltiy that misdirects this natural process we feel a loss, an unatural feeling of parenting. 

Allow yourself to grieve.  It is a loss.

twojaybirds, Your words really hit home with me. Thank you for sharing.

Being Mindful

[vivekananda]

hi Winnie,

Those of us with adult children have a different struggle eh? Coming to a place of radical acceptance is one thing I have been working on for a while now. It has made  difference for me, I hope so for you too.

Cheers,

Vivek    

[winnie]

  To all who responded, thank you for the support. Radical acceptance is incredibly hard. I am the only one who responds to her. Her sisters have checked out. Too many hateful emails, passive aggressive posts on Facebook and missed celebrations. They really feel she doesn't care about them. They expect apologies that will never come and remorse. I guess I don't feel capable as a parent to support them in a relationship they do not understand. I try but I don't think I am always helpful. I reread an email from sister to sister in 2003 the other day. We are still at the same place perseverating over and over. Nothing has changed and it's 10 years later. We're all a little older and have gained nothing. This is why I am so reluctant to engage again. In the end history will be rewritten and I will once again have the starring role as the abuser. How does anyone do this?  I need to move from this sad place.

[vivekananda]

winnie our first responsibility is to take care of ourselves. We can be no help if we are not well. I hope you are caring for yourself. Do you see a therapist? Do you have any support?

While I was reading your post, I thought to say that I don't think you have responsibility for your dds' relationships with each other. As adults they have that responsibility themselves and that is one thing I think you could let go of. If they don't understand and are unwilling to learn,  that is their issue, not yours. You can listen but not accept any responsibility for them. Perhaps if you could try the Lundberg approach to validation: listen by giving your full attention, listen to the emotions being expressed, listen to the needs being exposed, and understand by putting yourself in their shoes as best you can. Then you dd's will feel validated and you will better be able to not take on their issues (I'd hope).

As for your dd, I wouldn't be in a hurry to re engage until I was comfortable in applying the tools we learn here and through the books we read. These can give us the strength to maintain our own mental health and keep us from falling into a depression. And it is not easy to change.

stay strong winnie, take care of yourself

Vivek    

[qcarolr]

winnie - sounds like you are working to 'step off the victim triangle'. It is so difficult and painful and in the beginning can feel like giving up on our child. We are hardwired to reach out to attach with our kids - regardless of age, they are always our child. And sometimes, when our connections are blocked, we need to step back.

I said for many months, when DD was evicted and living homeless for 20 monhts, that she would NEVER live in our home again. And how I mourned this loss - moaning and crying. And DD kept reaching out to me, often in very abusive feeling ways. Because of her imbalances in how her body-emotion-mind system is working, and has always worked in DD26's case, she is blocked to my parental love as well. A double block vs. reciprocal relationship. And as I learned, practiced, grew we rebuilt our r/s so she can be back in my life. This does not always happen - sometimes the child cannot overcome the blocked attachment Yet, we can still love them in ways that are healthy for us.

I wish you hope. There are many resources you have already tapped into. Take care of your needs - find some joy in your daily life - connect to others that can give you back the loving care that you give them. We all need a couple good friends. For me, that is my dh now (not often in the past - validation is working in my marriage )

You are in my thoughts and prayers for guidance, courage and strength. Those are the prayers I recieved that helped me the most in the dark days.

qcr  

There is a song in my mind for you just now - God's love is still there for you even if the healing does not come. Do not know who sings it, but it brings me a moment of peace.

[pessim-optimist]

... .  And sometimes, when our connections are blocked, we need to step back.

... .  sometimes the child cannot overcome the blocked attachment. Yet, we can still love them in ways that are healthy for us.

Can you elaborate?

Two reasons I ask: I'm trying to see how it might apply to my usd32, who currently sees us all black, but also to my possibly BP brother who has been completely estranged from the whole family for 10yrs (very hard for my parents, they don't know what to do, they've pretty much given up, but are hurting and not healing, mom is possibly BP as well).

[qcarolr]

There are many advances in the interpersonal neuroscience area, and I have read some new models putting this knowledge to work. And have reviewed some others. The brain stuff can get kind of technical with the scientific names for the parts and how they are intended to work together; how they often do not work well together for many different reasons. This gives me a new 'language' and perspective in understanding the 'how' and 'why' of many of my DD26 reactions and actions. For now, I will attempt to translate it into non-technical language.

You can check out the newest book: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=195469.0

The hard part is that focusing on dealing with my BPDDD26's behaviors is the least effective path. For one, only she has any power over those and it is often compromised by her lack of connection to her 'thinking' part of the brain system. If I can make changes in myself, to put my brain system in the best possible place, then I have a greater hope of forming a healthier connection with her. The focus is on finding a way for her to let me in so that she is able to give a little back to me. We are designed for a reciprocal caring relationship with others. Parents are given a special drive - a neurological instinct - for this connection to their children. And when this is blocked, it can be devasting to all.

There are several ways this block can happen. The one that struck me was 'child-specific'. When the child's brain system, especially the executive thinking part and the structure that connects that to the emotional center are underactive, the child may be unable to reciprocate the parent's providing a safe place for them to grow. This activates the parents 'safety network' which then can deactivate that same link between emotion and thinking. Then the harder we push for things to be different ,often from a behavioral perspective - fix the behaviors - the more intense the block becomes.

It is easier to reverse this with a younger child or adolescent. It is harder with an adult - yet possible. It may take many many more repititions of the strategies and lots of change on the parent, partner or other family member.

There is a lot of information in "Overcoming BPD" by Valarie Porr that parallels some of the informaiton in "Brain Based Parenting" by Daniel Hughes and Jon Baylin (link above). The strategies in Porr's mentalization section address a similar path as Hughes PACE model. It is important in both these to remember the changes - the therapy or support from family/friends - must come from you. Then you can model this for the pwBPD, and slowly things CAN change for them. The other effect for me is a greater peace, less suffering in the midst of pain. Finding the courage and strength to take care with my self-protective boundaries (that keep my brain satisfied that I am not in danger of being eaten by a saber tooth tiger) so my executive structure and function can regulate my emotional structure and function makes sense out of taking care of myself first in a very concete way.

Sometimes these first steps - accepting we cannot change our loved one's behaviors directly, and taking care of ourselves - are the hardest.

Feels like I am talking in circles. Does any of this make sense to you? Ask me more questions -

qcr  

FYI: This can be turned around for adults coping with growing up with a BPD parent, but that is not the focus of this board. Daniel Hughes has a book to be released in October 2013 for adult to adult relationships. I found a review at Amazon.com.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[vivekananda]

thanks qcr,   

So, is this a different way of understanding 1) we can only change ourselves and hope thereby to influence change with our children and 2) validation and values based boundaries and being mindful are the key tools for doing this?

Or does it go deeper than this? I understand it uses 'brain science' and 'attachment theory' to explain. I feel like I will get lost in a whole lot of psychology when I hear about this sort of stuff. Did reading this help you to put it all into place for yourself? 

cheers,

Vivek    

[Reality]

You can check out the newest book: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=195469.0

The hard part is that focusing on dealing with my BPDDD26's behaviors is the least effective path. For one, only she has any power over those and it is often compromised by her lack of connection to her 'thinking' part of the brain system. If I can make changes in myself, to put my brain system in the best possible place, then I have a greater hope of forming a healthier connection with her. The focus is on finding a way for her to let me in so that she is able to give a little back to me. We are designed for a reciprocal caring relationship with others. Parents are given a special drive - a neurological instinct - for this connection to their children. And when this is blocked, it can be devasting to all.

There are several ways this block can happen. The one that struck me was 'child-specific'. When the child's brain system, especially the executive thinking part and the structure that connects that to the emotional center are underactive, the child may be unable to reciprocate the parent's providing a safe place for them to grow. This activates the parents 'safety network' which then can deactivate that same link between emotion and thinking. Then the harder we push for things to be different ,often from a behavioral perspective - fix the behaviors - the more intense the block becomes.

There is a lot of information in "Overcoming BPD" by Valarie Porr that parallels some of the informaiton in "Brain Based Parenting" by Daniel Hughes and Jon Baylin (link above). The strategies in Porr's mentalization section address a similar path as Hughes PACE model. It is important in both these to remember the changes - the therapy or support from family/friends - must come from you. Then you can model this for the pwBPD, and slowly things CAN change for them. The other effect for me is a greater peace, less suffering in the midst of pain. Finding the courage and strength to take care with my self-protective boundaries (that keep my brain satisfied that I am not in danger of being eaten by a saber tooth tiger) so my executive structure and function can regulate my emotional structure and function makes sense out of taking care of myself first in a very concete way.

Sometimes these first steps - accepting we cannot change our loved one's behaviors directly, and taking care of ourselves - are the hardest.

Brilliant explanation, qcaroir.  Ties into my endorsement of Mentalization a while back on one of the posts.  

There is always a good reason for behavior.  The trick is to understand the causes/ the reason, not to try to change the behavior.  The behavior changes naturally once the underlying issues are addressed.  I guess in that sense disturbing behavior is the flag telling the world that there is something going on that needs to be addressed.  

Maybe acting-out behavior is truly a non-verbal way of communicating dysfunctionality, in that sense it is a communication tool.  I have no words.  I must act it out.  I cannot express with words.  I must dramatize my reality.  Very primordial.  Hmmmmm... .  

I know this is controversial.  I also sense that the acting-out builds as the dysfunctionality of the family deepens, downward spiralling, the dysfunctionality feeding off the dysfunctionality. Once the dysfunctionality decreases in either place, less energy to feed the craziness.

Obvious thoughts, I guess.

Reality

[Reality]

In many ways, Mentalization and maybe PACE is really about grounding a trance/the crazy reality inside the psyches, with words to externalize inner reality.  Once the conversation starts authentically, instead of using idealistic models that aren't real, there is a true meeting of the two people.  One finds common ground, yet with a complexity and uniqueness.

It is the complexity of the BPD psyche that trips it up, that trips us up, that builds the frustration, that exhausts mentally, physically and emotionally.  Maybe RTFs are just one big huge time-out for everyone with lots of everyday boring structure that soothes the frenzied soul.  Same with jail.  Structure, rules, no more trying to figure out what one is supposed to be doing.  Simple living soothes the complex psyche.  The less gifted and intelligent plod along in the frenzied world.  The highly-sensitive are overcome.

Reality

[qcarolr]

We are sure persistent as parents. Guess that is what brings us here and keeps us engaged intensely in our struggle to make our connections with our kids stronger and healthier. There are so many ways to THINK about being a parent - many different filters or 'languages'. I can see this in the responses from Vivek  and realtiy. There are others that come from a more 'gut' level or intuitive feeling place - and that is another filter or 'language'. It does get so very confusing trying to understand each other, and all the professionals we are exposed to. So many systems all trying to get to the same place - healthier, reciprocal, nuturing relationshps in our lives.

So Vivek , yes this has given me a very distinct way to understand all these different languages in coping with being a parent. What drives my persistence in this painful, difficult relationship. Then, from this understanding of how my evolved human self is intended to operate, and a better understanding of how my evolved human self is currently working (or not working), there is hope I can find the 'language' that best fits my temperatment, life experience, education, spirituality, etc. (ie. set of tools; system of therapy -ie. mentalization, schema, PACE... ; spiritual beliefs) and relationships with my support people to make my internal and external life better.

My struggle is how to speak, write, understand and express this topic in a simple way to guide each of us to the best path to accomplish our goals with our families and communities.

The brain based picture has helped put this in a graphical sense for me - I am a visual learner. This has relieved some of the confusion for me. Wish I could have a book club with all of you at a comfy coffee shop somewhere - who has the bookstore? - so we could look at the diagrams and charts together. Words can be so limiting.

And here I am babbling on and on again.   So maybe I will do a new thread to try and draw this picture with words - don't know how to put up an actual drawing here. Would you join me there? I have hijacked this thread too much.

qcr  

[vivekananda]

yep, i'll join you 

it'd be good to pull together all the ideas.

ta,

Vivek    

[pessim-optimist]

... .  There are several ways this block can happen. The one that struck me was 'child-specific'. When the child's brain system, especially the executive thinking part and the structure that connects that to the emotional center are underactive, the child may be unable to reciprocate the parent's providing a safe place for them to grow. This activates the parents 'safety network' which then can deactivate that same link between emotion and thinking. Then the harder we push for things to be different ,often from a behavioral perspective - fix the behaviors - the more intense the block becomes.

Then you can model this for the pwBPD, and slowly things CAN change for them. The other effect for me is a greater peace, less suffering in the midst of pain. Finding the courage and strength to take care with my self-protective boundaries (that keep my brain satisfied that I am not in danger of being eaten by a saber tooth tiger) so my executive structure and function can regulate my emotional structure and function makes sense out of taking care of myself first in a very concete way.

Sometimes these first steps - accepting we cannot change our loved one's behaviors directly, and taking care of ourselves - are the hardest.

thank you, qcr,

Did not understand the part of the sentence:

"the child may be unable to reciprocate the parent's providing a safe place for them to grow"  

But I think that otherwise I get it. What I have seen in some of our interactions with usd in the last year trying to hold steady onto our new boundaries, sometimes we were not effective (those do-overs, would come in handy if they were available), and all the while I could see her slipping farther and farther away into the "dad is all bad and always has been, always will be" mode, and getting up a stronger and stronger block. I don't know if or how it can be undone at this point... .  That's the sad story re. my brother and my parents, too.

And you are right, letting go and taking care of ourselves IS hard. I just keep obsessing, because I feel like we are still unprepared and might mess things up... .