She just filed and has started lying - SCARED

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hi Everyone,

She filed last week and I was hoping against hope that it would be a relatively friendly divorce (as she said she wanted).

Alas, a few days ago -- I know this will be confusing -- my wife's D28 was told by her cousin that my wife was hanging out with a guy at the cousin's mom's house. (My wife started her affair three months ago but I didn't tell the family and hoped they wouldn't find out.) So rather than staying out of it, I called my wife to give her a heads up that her D28 had found out, to make sure to she knew I wasn't the snitch.

Didn't work. She claims I outed her and that I am a pathological liar for denying it. She's been raging white hot for days, calling family members and demanding to stop talking to me, threatening me with lawsuits and restraining orders, and generally telling me that she is going to nail me to the wall in the divorce.

So I get a call from her lawyer today, saying my wife claims I'm calling her office 20x a day harassing her (I haven't called her office in three weeks) and saying I am making threats, etc.  I tried to assure him that I was trying to keep things calm and keep her D28 from engaging with with her because those two do get volatile.  The lawyer said he would take me at my word but threatened me with a restraining order if I stepped  out of line.  Repeat: SCARED.

Here's the main reason why I am so scared. My wife is one of the most well-known and loved women in this County. She is a very visible advocate for domestic violence and her non-profit runs two shelters for abused women.  She has the whole community eating out of her hand. The media loves her interviews, and she knows judges, attorneys, the police, politicians, etc. etc.  They all adore her.  She receives Woman of the Year awards every other year it seems.

WHAT CHANCE DO I HAVE IN COURT?  After reading some of your stories, I feel doomed. I don't have a job and am looking but frankly I think I'm too emotionally wrecked for anyone to hire me right now!

It's so ironic that my wife has is the darling of the whole community, but she herself has been arrested for DV against her first husband and spent time in jail (I just found out from her D28 last month.) She has been under psychiatric care during her time with me, and has punched and slapped me, threatened me with a butcher knife pointed at me, and nearly run me over with her car.  It has been a nightmare, but I think it might just be beginning. (Sorry for sounding so panicky and pathetic, but I think my life could basically be over.)

[Vinnie]

Hi Everyone,

She filed last week and I was hoping against hope that it would be a relatively friendly divorce (as she said she wanted).

Alas, a few days ago -- I know this will be confusing -- my wife's D28 was told by her cousin that my wife was hanging out with a guy at the cousin's mom's house. (My wife started her affair three months ago but I didn't tell the family and hoped they wouldn't find out.) So rather than staying out of it, I called my wife to give her a heads up that her D28 had found out, to make sure to she knew I wasn't the snitch.

Didn't work. She claims I outed her and that I am a pathological liar for denying it. She's been raging white hot for days, calling family members and demanding to stop talking to me, threatening me with lawsuits and restraining orders, and generally telling me that she is going to nail me to the wall in the divorce.

So I get a call from her lawyer today, saying my wife claims I'm calling her office 20x a day harassing her (I haven't called her office in three weeks) and saying I am making threats, etc.  I tried to assure him that I was trying to keep things calm and keep her D28 from engaging with with her because those two do get volatile.  The lawyer said he would take me at my word but threatened me with a restraining order if I stepped  out of line.  Repeat: SCARED.

Here's the main reason why I am so scared. My wife is one of the most well-known and loved women in this County. She is a very visible advocate for domestic violence and her non-profit runs two shelters for abused women.  She has the whole community eating out of her hand. The media loves her interviews, and she knows judges, attorneys, the police, politicians, etc. etc.  They all adore her.  She receives Woman of the Year awards every other year it seems.

WHAT CHANCE DO I HAVE IN COURT?  After reading some of your stories, I feel doomed. I don't have a job and am looking but frankly I think I'm too emotionally wrecked for anyone to hire me right now!

It's so ironic that my wife has is the darling of the whole community, but she herself has been arrested for DV against her first husband and spent time in jail (I just found out from her D28 last month.) She has been under psychiatric care during her time with me, and has punched and slapped me, threatened me with a butcher knife pointed at me, and nearly run me over with her car.  It has been a nightmare, but I think it might just be beginning. (Sorry for sounding so panicky and pathetic, but I think my life could basically be over.)

[gina louise]

vinnie,

document, document, document.

try not to be alone or have ANY private conversations with her.

talk through the  lawyer s. don't let her lawyer scare or bully you.

phone records should reveal the calls (or not calling).

tell your lawyer about HER DV arrest. and the psych care.

Ignore the threats- but do document/detail them to your L, let the lawyer handle it. save any threatening text or e-mails. Don't engage.

Don't panic.

stay neutral and stay in self protect mode.

GL

[ForeverDad]

As GL noted, document her behaviors while doing nothing wrong yourself.  That includes not contacting her, not even to intercede for her daughter(s).  Her lawyer has fairly warned you to not contact her excessively.  It would be best to not contact her at all and definitely not about anything that would emotionally trigger her.

You have a child together that has another 9 years to go before she is an adult.  You will have to negotiate a minefield of parenting or attempts at co-parenting.

What sort of parenting schedule has she filed for?  I'm guessing somewhere between zero to minimal for you?  If so, that's typical.  Be aware that the initial temporary hearing will be very important.  A typical lawyer may tell you, like mine did, ":)on't worry, we'll fix it all later."  With high conflict cases that's generally wrong, you need to put your best foot forward very vigorously.  Yes, courts only give you a half hour or so in the initial hearing, so make every minute count, you will have to live with the outcome for many months, perhaps longer.

Guess what, in my case the court refused to make changes to the temporary order during the entire length of my 23.5 month divorce case.  I think that was partly due to the court hoping at every hearing that we'd announce we had a settlement.  The temporary order was favorable for my ex and so she had no incentive to negotiate reasonably and every incentive to delay as much as she could.  Settlement didn't happen until 1 3/4 years into the case, on Trial Morning.

So one or more of her adult daughters is solidly on your side?  Good.  Guard her well, you may never have as good an advocate as her.  She's your ace in the hole.  How do I say this?  Keep her validated.  Don't do anything to weaken your support of her just to appease her mother.  Forget fairness, forget being the peacemaker, forget being the mediator between mother and adult daughter, you know you'll never appease her mother, time to stop that and look out for yourself, your daughter and your supporters.  After 20 years, you know that appeasing her mother won't fix the core issues.  You may very well need her daughter's testimony and support to not be arrested for wife's unsubstantiated allegations and not get railroaded in family court.

So you separated but let her file?  Was there anything accusatory in her divorce filing?  While it is debatable whether you filing first or her filing first is better, that's done now.  Your goal henceforth is to be assertive and firm.  Yes, you'll need to make some concessions here and there, too many, but also decide with your lawyer where to draw your line in the sand, what's negotiable and what's not negotiable.

How possessive is your stbEx (soon to be ex-spouse)?  Her need to be seen as MOTY (Mother Of The Year) may make the case a very difficult one, but how is she with parenting?  Do she do a lot or does she leave it to you?  That answer may indicate to what extent she will continue to cause problems after the divorce is final.

Due to her high profile it may be especially important to seek a custody evaluation.  It's expensive, typically $5K and more, but if done by an experienced, neutral and perceptive expert, and including recognized tests such as the highly regarded MPPI-2, then it will be well worth the expense.  If she has more financial resources than you, she may be ordered to pay or you may have to split the costs or it may have to come out of marital funds.

I wish we could tell you that the court will figure things out all on its own and arrive at a good outcome without much guidance and persistence from you.  Odds are, it won't.  You will need to be proactive.  Document as much as you can.  (While some states have restrictive recording laws, I've concluded that the risks of false allegations (DV, child abuse, child neglect, etc) is greater than the risks of recording.  Most have found that the courts generally don't care to listen to recordings, but the evaluators, police and others may take them into consideration.  It may make the difference between going to jail or not, getting painted black by a restraining order or not.  Especially since allegations are usually made about 'incidents' in private that have no independent witnesses. In my case, I saw recording as a form of insurance, 'proof' that I wasn't the one misbehaving.)

[Vinnie]

Thank you for the advice. It feels reassuring to have allies like you willing to support me through this.   I just ordered the book Splitting.

I have a question.  I'm interviewing lawyers right now.  How important is it for me to get an attorney in the same county?  Does it help for your attorney to already know the judges? 

It's a small community and there's only a few good ol boy family law attorneys, so I'm wondering if it would be more important to get the best attorney I can find, even if they mainly practice in the adjoining county (40 minutes away)?

[ForeverDad]

Some here have stated that if you have consulted with an attorney, then the ex can't use them (the lawyer would know confidential information).  Whether that's the case or not in your area, be mindful of that.  If she's consulted with the local lawyers or possibly even if she's used them in the past, you may not be able to use some.  Of course, you won't know until you've tried.

I understand the impression of the friendly local network.  It may or may not be an issue.  However, be wary that your lawyer may be more of a wheeler and dealer.  While most divorces do end with a settlement, that's not a wise approach when there's high conflict and one spouse is unreasonable and demanding.  It's like that cartoon of Gumby and the Elevator or whatever.  "Mr. Bill, Mr Bill!"  The elevator always wins and Gumby always gets squeezed into a puddle of goo.  How do you negotiate with someone who won't listen or not emotionally overreact?

Here are some quotes from recent threads on this Family Law board.  Browse them or use the Search button above (onn the dark blue menu) to search for specific phrases.

Are they familiar with Bill Eddy & Randi Kreger's Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder?  Do you have a copy?

Don't be too timid to ask, "If your marriage was imploding and you were facing a high conflict divorce, who would you recommend?"  If he or she is good, it will be an acceptable question, lawyers know they won't be hired by every person walking in the door.  Your lawyer knows most of the local professionals, some may be too pricey for your circumstances, but at least you would be able to know which ones are more capable and get the focus of your attention.  Move the names you hear to the top of your list.

I almost got the feeling that all of the experiences I've had witnessing my spouses erratic behavior didn't really matter.

Generally speaking, much of what you experienced will never make it into court records.  It's almost as though the system tries to keep the documentation handled by the court to a bare minimum.  Much of what you think is outrageous behavior is ignored by the court unless it is extreme, usually just "substantive" abuse or neglect.  The effect is that litigants may be more likely to settle, judges have latitude to made decisions choosing or rejecting standard outcomes using vague 'judicial discretion' and with less risk of a successful appeal that might make the judge look less than good.

That did upset me to some extent, because why would I suggest more time for a temporary arrangement than I am planning to ask for permanent?

And *temporary* means *permanent* for many of us. Unless something really wacky happens, and then you have to go back to court to modify it. If your L tries to sell temporary as temporary, you definitely have a loser. Stick to your guns!

[marbleloser]

"So I get a call from her lawyer today, saying my wife claims I'm calling her office 20x a day harassing her (I haven't called her office in three weeks) and saying I am making threats, etc.  I tried to assure him that I was trying to keep things calm and keep her D28 from engaging with with her because those two do get volatile.  The lawyer said he would take me at my word but threatened me with a restraining order if I stepped  out of line.  Repeat: SCARED."

Don't be scared.That what he wants.She has a burden of proof on EVERYTHING that she claims you're doing. Next time her L contacts you with claims such as this,tell him to either prove it in court,or stop harassing you,and that you'll require she pay court fees and atty fees for false accusations.Be firm,be assertive.

GET A LAWYER NOW! She's 10 steps ahead of you.You need to catch up.You're unemployed.Get a L,respond to her and request she pay ALL your legal fees,alimony,etc.,, Hit back hard and show that you're not going away quietly.

Document EVERYTHING. Phone calls,texts,especially emails.You ALWAYS be polite.

Once you have a lawyer,all contact goes through him/her.This gets you out of the loop somewhat,and her L will have a more difficult time intimidating another L.

[DreamGirl]

I agree that getting an attorney is a really good idea.

I would also respect her request that you stop talking to her. There probably is not much to talk about at this point if she's willing to accuse you of domestic violence.

Are you and her daughter close?

[Vinnie]

Are you and her daughter close?

Yes, I am very close with D28, and that is part of the reason my wife is so enraged.

I helped raise her from age 8-13 until she could no longer stand her mom and left to live with her father.  

I also helped raise and remain very close to wife's D23 and S25. I am closer to them than my wife is. They have issues with her, think she needs "help," and see her only when they have to - birthdays, holidays, etc.

Wife asked me yesterday if I have spoken with her D23.  I said, "No, I'm staying out of it."  Wife tells me she left her numerous messages, and because she didn't have the courtesy of responding, wife left her fiance a voice mail saying, "Tell my daughter she has made it clear who she has sided with, and she is on her own as far as the wedding is concerned. You guys have a nice life."

Poor girl! I believe D23 is just too shocked by this whole thing to know what to do. She had no part in this thing besides being informed by her sister that her mother was with another man. I believe D23 is too scared to call her mother after getting the kind of angry voice mails that wife leaves when she' triggered. D23 is not like her sister D28 who enjoys standing up to her mom and dishing it out in kind.  

Wife's extended family likes and respects me too. I believe they knew what I was putting up with being with her. At least they liked me until last week when wife started the smear campaign. Yesterday I received an angry voicemail from her mother -- with whom I formerly had a warm relationship -- telling me the "witch hunt" I was conducting was wrong and was ripping the family apart. It sad to see the beginning of the end of 20 year relationships. (BTW, wife's sister says their mother is definitely BPD but she's always been sweet to me.)

Sorry for all this detail. It's very cathartic to be able to share with somebody. Family doesn't need to hear it, and friends generally don't have time or interest to listen to your crap - at least males don't.

[ForeverDad]

Wife asked me yesterday if I have spoken with her D23.  I said, "No, I'm staying out of it."  Wife tells me she left her numerous messages, and because she didn't have the courtesy of responding, wife left her fiance a voice mail saying, "Tell my daughter she has made it clear who she has sided with, and she is on her own as far as the wedding is concerned. You guys have a nice life."

Poor girl! I believe D23 is just too shocked by this whole thing to know what to do. She had no part in this thing besides being informed by her sister that her mother was with another man. I believe D23 is too scared to call her mother after getting the kind of angry voice mails that wife leaves when she' triggered. D23 is not like her sister D28 who enjoys standing up to her mom and dishing it out in kind.

What her mother is doing is a form of intimidation, blaming or blame-shifting.  It'ssad but often happens, we have a phrase for it, extinction burst.  Jusdt when you think it can't possibly get any worse, it does.  The goal is to get the other person to back down and acquiesce.  It also a testing and retesting of boundaries to see how firm they are.  For example, the daughter that's getting married, how much pressure can she take before the caves in to the demands.  (Yet if daughter is honest with herself, she will have to acknowledge there will always be more demands no matter how many times she complies.  In this case, "side with me or else... .  "

Do the daughters get along with each other?  They may need to sit down and decide how to deal with these demands and whether they can rely upon each other to withstand the pressure and emotional blaming.  They need to be aware that the disordered demanding parent has no qualms about using "divide and conquer" strategies.  Otherwise one or more of them will be caught off guard.

And, no, you don't have to answer her demands for information, not even to say, "No, I didn't do what you're saying."  DreamGirl made some good comments.  Remember, she's the one complaining about you contacting her.  Her lawyer has been told you're harassing her.  Yes, it's projection of her own behaviors, but for all you know her lawyer doesn't care about the truth.  Keep contact to a minimum and stay away from all emotionally triggering interrogations, quizes, etc.  You have a right to privacy, confidentiality, not feeling hounded, etc.

Believe it or not, you even have a right to calmly hang up.  (My ex would call right back and say how horrible I was to hang up, how could I call myself a Christian - and then continue ranting and raging.  )  Be aware that letting rants and rages continue does seem to enable even more poor behaviors.  Patience is a concept that generally goes right over the head of most disordered people and does not increase the other person's respect of you.  At this point there is no respect left for you, sadly.

[WalrusGumboot]

Vinnie,

I am probably not going to offer much new, but I wanted to further encourage you to document her erratic behavior, as others have stated. Towards the end of my marriage, especially after filing for divorce and all hell started breaking loose, I always kept my phone in my pocket, recording our interactions. In the end, I had so much ammunition against her that if wanted to "nail me against the wall" or start a campaign of character assassination, she would lose. Your stbx is a very popular and respected woman and she has so much to lose. She knows this and she is most likely more scared than you. She is bullying you and throwing her weight around to frighten you enough to not reveal who she really is.

WG

[livednlearned]

Hey there Vinnie,

Wow. The irony of your wife's job.

You have some good things going for you. It sounds like your stbx has strong narcissistic traits -- although the disordered, raging, abusive side of that is awful, it does give you an advantage. She knows she can't be publicly threatening and abusive to you, and that really ties her hands. Find out if you can record her, without consent. It's different in every state. You also have the support of your three step kids, and they're adults, so if it comes to it, they can be allies. Plus, your ex has a record she doesn't want the world to know about. Oops! Those darn facts.

She isn't going to nail you to the wall. She is going to talk a good game about nailing you to the wall, but if she does that, and does it in an extreme way, she will be exposed, and narcissists don't want that. I can't tell you how much cage-rattling has gone on in my case, and my ex is a lawyer! He didn't show up in court as a dad who loves his kid, he showed up in court as a performer who was desperate for an adoring audience. It was bizarre and people could feel the emotional disorder even if they didn't know what it was.

FD and others have given you great advice. In a nutshell:

Document everything. Make it your job right now.

Find out what the recording laws are in your state, whether you need consent to record.

Read Splitting.

Interview attorneys until you find one you want to retain.

If you've been the primary caregiver, or have shared a lot of it, start gathering whatever documentation you can.

Whatever you do to de-stress, do it a lot and make it part of your job. You have to manage your fear or it will eat you alive.

It's time to end contact with your wife, and probably your MIL. Nothing good will come of it. Tell your step kids what you're doing and why.

It will get worse for a while, and then it will get familiar, then it gets easy, and then you realize you're finally living again. Your strength comes back, and you pinch yourself because even though the disorder is still in your life, it's not in your face. It really does get better, although it may take a while.

Come here for moral support, it really does make a difference. People here care because we've been there. The first part is always the hardest, it seems.

[david]

I was locked up for two weeks because of false DV charges. I now have a video and audio recorder with me at all times. I record everything when she is near. (parent teacher meetings, doc appointments, etc. ) I turn the audio recorder on when I am in my car and put it in my pocket. I turn it off when I am several blocks away in my car. I download it on my computer. I am not allowed to record in my state without a court order. I explained to my atty that I was recording myself and it just so happens that other things get recorded as well. This way I can show that I did not curse or say anything I am being accused of. Atty said it was arguable. If ex comes near me during children exchange I turn the video camera on and let her see it. She stopped trying after the second time. Document and don't do anything wrong.