How to disentangle?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I will renew my lease on my rental for another 6 months.

After the divorce (which takes 3 months), then I can start house hunting again.

Once I find a place, get settled and move the business, then I can hire a couple of people I will train to start taking over stbx's duties.

Then I can approach stbx with a buy out proposal.

Then I can start the documentation process of when he's stalking me for the rest of my life (because he will).

Hey DA,

I'm  with your matter of fact acceptance of stalking even though it is not funny at all.

Listen, for the stalking reason alone, I would recommend renting for a while. At least with a rental you can pick up and leave in the middle of the night.

I hope he leaves you alone and the stalking never happens.

My exBPDH left me alone the further I moved from him and from living in places he was comfortable or familiar with.

So, now, when he did show up unannounced at my door after a move and 4 years of not seeing my DD, and we didn't open it, well, he fled the scene. We live in a pretty 50s style ranch suburb where you get the feeling that there is neighborhood watch even if there isn't.

I mean, I would try to live in a well lit, semi crowded, development surrounded by places where stalkers can't feel comfortable-- as awful as it may sound, it may be worth a few extra miles on your car to get to someplace where you can sleep at night.

Mamachelle

[mamachelle]

I will renew my lease on my rental for another 6 months.

After the divorce (which takes 3 months), then I can start house hunting again.

Once I find a place, get settled and move the business, then I can hire a couple of people I will train to start taking over stbx's duties.

Then I can approach stbx with a buy out proposal.

Then I can start the documentation process of when he's stalking me for the rest of my life (because he will).

Hey DA,

I'm  with your matter of fact acceptance of stalking even though it is not funny at all.

Listen, for the stalking reason alone, I would recommend renting for a while. At least with a rental you can pick up and leave in the middle of the night.

I hope he leaves you alone and the stalking never happens.

My exBPDH left me alone the further I moved from him and from living in places he was comfortable or familiar with.

So, now, when he did show up unannounced at my door after a move and 4 years of not seeing my DD, and we didn't open it, well, he fled the scene. We live in a pretty 50s style ranch suburb where you get the feeling that there is neighborhood watch even if there isn't.

I mean, I would try to live in a well lit, semi crowded, development surrounded by places where stalkers can't feel comfortable-- as awful as it may sound, it may be worth a few extra miles on your car to get to someplace where you can sleep at night.

Mamachelle

[doubleAries]

mamachelle,

you are talking about a "rational" stalker, not one who loses contact with reality and becomes outright delusional. Over the years, I've watched stbx start getting whacky and get online to look for his high school/college girlfriend. He becomes enraged that she has hidden her contact info on the college alumni site. He tells me (when I catch him--he sneaks to do this of course) that he's "just curious" about her. And when I say "then why are you so angry?" then he gets angry at me. Nice diversion from answering the question.

Oh, it would be nice if I thought he wouldn't stalk me. But that's not realistic. His family thinks he will, our counselor thinks he will. His old college friends think he will. Most of it will just be annoying delusional phone calls and such. Hopefully I'll be able to tell when he's REALLY wound up and it's going to be much weirder (like appearing at a trade show or something).

I approached him today when I got to work about going to the courthouse tomorrow and filing the divorce papers. He acted like this was all a surprise to him. Then he told me he had a counseling appointment tomorrow night, so it needed to be right before his appointment, so as not to inconvenience him. But I have another appointment in another town right before then. Told him it would need to be earlier. Nope. Not convenient enough (I managed to hold my tongue). OK, how about Wednesday? Well, maybe... .  Then he said (all huffy) "I need to get to work now... .  " (there's always that implication that he is practical and I am a drama queen, wasting his valuable time with my silly little "mind games".

Finally I TOLD him to meet me at the courthouse on Wednesday at 1:30 pm and bring the car titles as well. He said he would. We'll see. More than 50% chance he won't do it and then will twist it around to blame me.

Then he spent the next 2 hours petting the dogs and reading the newspaper (even though he was so busy and anxious to get to work that he didn't even have time to finish the discussion about when was "convenient" to file divorce papers). He then made himself scarce and I haven't seen him at all the rest of the day. This is his version of being a "business partner".

Meanwhile, I am spending my evenings ripping my hair out over tax time and which forms I need and what foreign language it says ("if you are required to file schedule A, then attach form J5124 and specify your accounting method" AARRGGHH!)

[Forward2free]

For what it's worth, I rang the bank and listed our cards as stolen and had mine reissued. By the time N/BPDxh reaslied it was cancelled, he couldn't get another issued without my signature as he was a cardholder on my account.

I got the locks changed on my old house, but he broke in any way, 3 times.

N/BPDxh was/is an A class stalker and in the end, I got an intervention order and disclosed my address. The magistrate was confused and asked me why I wanted him to know it. I told her that I'd rather disclose it than continue to run and hide as xh  he promised me, and the kids, that he would find us wherever we go. I believe that.

It shocked N/BPDxh and the court but I slept more peacefully that night than before. I have CCTV cameras and the local police know where I live and what the problems have been in the past. They can get to me quickly even if I only call 911 (000) and don't speak - my numbers are registered with my address and they'll see the active intervention order and make haste to my house.

He still calls my house occasionally but I screen all calls and the screaming or whatever threatening message is recorded onto my answering machine.

The IVO means there are consequences (jail, fines etc) if he breaches the terms and contacts me or stays within x distance of me and the kids. SO far, after 4 years, it still works. Every day of NC makes it a little easier and hopefully his new GF/s will keep him busy enough. Pity I was the only gal stupid enough to procreate with him.

I feel more safe now than ever - and he knows exactly where I am. Go figure! Maybe by taking away the challenge to find me, I think I have helped to defuse the attraction?

[doubleAries]

DID IT!

I can't believe it! Stbx actually showed up at the courthouse today!

He did suddenly balk about attaching our agreement to the divorce papers. I thought about it for a minute or 2 and decided that actually, the agreement protected him more than me (especially in the long run) and agreed. So we filed the "no kids, no fighting over assets" version. Filed an affadavit to not have to appear--we will get something in the mail if this is approved, and then won't even have to appear in court. A magistrate will rubber stamp it and mail us the final decree.

I can hardly believe it!

This will still take 3 months, but at least the ball is finally rolling.

Then we went downstairs to the clerk and recorders office and took our names off each others car titles. Stbx started looking apprehensive and I asked "what's wrong?" thinking maybe he was sad, but without a moments hesitation he replied "now my car insurance is going to go up."

I'm glad I asked. Now when I wake up in the middle of the night tonight, with anxxiety gripping me as I codependently berate myself ("was I asking for too much? Did I complain too much? Maybe I didn't try hard enough! maybe it's all my fault!" I can think of that and remember "oh yeah--there never really was a relationship."

Anyway, it's finally in motion. We'll see what the next few months brings... .  

[ForeverDad]

Wow, all this in 9 days?  After months and years of fretting?



While there will still be some bumps along the way, it was that first step that was the hardest.  That lawyer was worth every penny.  Did he sign the agreement but just didn't want it attached to the divorce?  In any case, you know that you're being reasonable.  It might be good to talk with the lawyer again to see how that affects your options and strategies going forward.

[mamachelle]

SO good to hear... .   

I had to  about the car insurance. My exBPDH called me and begged me to keep him on my car insurance months after we signed the agreement--even offering to pay me the difference. I was like uh no... .  

What a difference a week can make.

[livednlearned]

My T thinks the best way is to do the disentangling first, then file for divorce. I agree, but am not entirely sure how to proceed. Maybe I'm just trapped in my desire to have an amicable, drama free, rubber stamped divorce, and that may not actually happen.

I have a great T who would give me that same kind of advice. Except she isn't an L, and quite often I would tell my L about what my T said, and my L would groan.

I think you need to file for divorce and let this go through the courts. It isn't likely to be amicable. Sorry  :'(

Nor will it be cheap or easy. Pull the band-aid off fast and use the divorce process to separate your assets. It's unfair and unfortunate that your assets and business will suffer because of the divorce, but that's just how it is. Makes me never want to be married ever again, watching how things go down between lawyers and judges and the law. It's a formula, and no one cares who was mentally ill, who worked the hardest, and who managed money well.

Have you read Splitting by Bill Eddy? That's a good book to help you understand what happens when you mix mental illness and the courts. It's mainly for people who have kids, but the general message and underlying insights would probably help you. You're right to think that legal stuff will make the PD and mental illness escalate, but at least there are some measures to force cooperation.

It's like trying to get gum off your shoe, divorcing a pwBPD or any kind of PD. It's messy, hard, takes a long time and the stickiness never really goes away.

But divorcing and being apart is worth it! Not a day goes by that I don't feel relief I'm out of that marriage. Being free and healthy is wonderful, even with my custody battle going on 2.5 years now.

[doubleAries]

Thanks everyone!

Forever dad--it wasn't just years of secretly fretting--it was years of refusal to cooperate. I have the distinct feeling that stbx thinks this is just some kind of "game" I'm playing to try to get him to act the way I want him to or something.

I believe the turning point here is when I finally quit trying to get him to leave and gave up on my own property. When I finally, finally, finally understood that it wasn't ME he was so attached to, it was my home and business. I was simply an obstacle to his attainment of the stability that he wanted (while pretending to already have it).

So when it comes time to disentangle in the business, that's when things are going to get REALLY ugly. But by then, we will be divorced. The business is a sole proprietorship in my name only. He has already signed and filed a document (divorce papers) saying there are no asset disputes. Once I find another place, move the business, and get settled in, I can make him an offer (and I will make a fair and reasonable offer--I don't think it's OK to justify being an Ahole just because someone else is an Ahole). I don't see how he could have a legal leg to stand on to not accept it.

But for the time being, we have to continue to work together. I just remember to not bring up anything AT ALL that is personal in nature (and he never has noticed if I don't) and when he acts like he might want to rehash his resentments, I try to remember to be confused and depressed. He thinks I might want to talk about my FEELINGS (OH NO!) and skidaddles immediately.

[ForeverDad]

Good. But don't make it too fair, that otherwise excellent personality trait is our weakness in these situations.  Make the offer at least a little in your favor so you have something left to 'negotiate' if he balks.  Remember, it's not like he wasn't getting paid - or using a card - all these years.

[doubleAries]

Hmmm... .  good point.

Also I can't get caught up in the "I haven't tried hard enough" mind set (but I think that, through a year and a half of weekly therapy, is finally really lifting).

He got paid a LOT more than he was actually worth, even though he's a workaholic. He never did hold up his end as a "partner". Just an employee without a life.

I really have to give most of the credit here to my/our therapist--he did a FINE job of convincing stbx to cooperate!

[doubleAries]

Well, so much for the victory dance.

Stbx is entering a manic relapse. He's pretty close to (if not already at) the delusion stage. And mean. We are both members of our local volunteer fire dept. The chief approached me about stbx's recent behavior (just regular manic stuff--for those of you unfamiliar with bipolar, that would be nonstop talking [from someone usually withdrawn and quiet] connecting things that aren't connected, going in 42 directions at once, grandiosity, out of context irritability, etc--plus throw in the bipolar driven extreme flare up of ASPD and NPD) He tried to talk to stbx with the exact results I expected. stbx was angry and sullen, like it was an accusation instead of a discussion of caring and compassion, otherwise, unresposive. Chief and T both told me in the last few days that I need to do something about this business account debit card stbx has. So I did.

I went to work today (which is at my former home--still in my name only--where stbx is still living, and supposedly buying from me next month). I tried to talk to him about calling his doctor, upping his treatment dosages, the like. He treated me the way he's always treated me--like I'm making an accusation, a personal attack. he doesn't want to talk about what he needs to do to get stable again, he wants to have investigations into who said what about him and when, and argue about whether the erratic behavior we see is erratic or not. Yeah, yeah, yeah. he ran to the bed and flung himself on it and put a pillow over his head so he wouldn't have to listen. So I told him (on the advice of T and attorney, don't tell him what you're going to do--just do it, then tell him after it's done) "well, I'm going to take the steps I need to in order to protect myself and the business" And he screamed FINE! out from under the pillow.

I then went and got a PO Box and had my personal and business mail forwarded to it. Then I went to the bank and told them what was going on asked what my options were. they said they couldn't cancel his ATM card, but that I could close the business account and transfer all the money to another account and not put his name on it. The bank manager came and looked at the divorce papers we filed (which of course say "no children and no asset disputes", and my Sectretary of State sole proprietorship paperwork, and said this was perfectly legal, go ahead. So I did. And deposited directly the pay day check into his personal checking account so I could close the original account.

I had given stbx a pay day check this morning. When I got back to work, I saw him crossing the road on foot and stopped to talk to him (with my stomach clenching). I told him to give me the check back, as I had deposited the money directly in his personal account. He said the check was up at the house and started to walk away. I told him I needed to talk to him and he just kept walking. So I did some work and left. He called me a couple hours later and asked how I was able to deposit a check into his account without his account number. I told him the bank has it. Then he asked me if I changed any accounts around, and demanded half of the business account money ("RIGHT NOW!". I asked if he was quitting and he said no. I told him what I did (tried to anyway, he wasn't really listening), and he says he’s going to the courthouse tomorrow and “telling on me” to the judge in our divorce case and going to try to cancel the undisputed divorce and say now there IS a dispute. And he’s going to call the police on me for “stealing his money” and then turn me in to the IRS so I can be audited. But first, he wants to “kick my f*ing head off”. Then he hung up on me. I don’t think I’m going to go to work tomorrow.

But now I need to move my business out of there ASAP without getting my head kicked off. If he hasn't already destroyed all the stock and supplies. I have a friend who has offered a pretty decent place to put the business for as long as I need to. But I'm not sure how to get it out of there now. I don't know what to do and I'm scared.

He wants to believe that I "seized" the money for my own personal use, thereby ripping him off. Which is not true at all. But he wants me to give him half the business capital (RIGHT NOW!) for HIS own personal use, while he also continues to be a "partner".

Part of me understands that he is simply being a bully and escalating the behavior he has used for a long time to keep me trapped, but there's some sick stupid part of me that is frantically berating myself for "provoking" him and doing "the wrong thing". This part I know is incorrect codependent survivor of childhood abuse tapes playing in my head, and I can sort of brush it aside, but it makes a bad situation worse. No, I won't give in to it (if I have to cling to the idea that I'd be disappointing the people who are also stbx's friends but have advised me to do this because they understand the situation more objectively than I do, so be it), but this doesn't mean I do know what to do.

It's pretty scary.  :'(

[Waddams]

I'm sorry things have taken a bad turn.  Saying prayers that it won't last like this.

In the meantime, do what you need to do for yourself.  If it means moving your business equipment/supplies, then get it done.  If you need to get some friends, or other volunteer fire fighters, or anyone else to go with you and help, then do it.  You can't let fear of what he's going to do stop you from taking care of yourself.  Let him go to the courthouse, let him do whatever he wants.  Just don't stop taking your own steps forward.

I think you'll find each step forward you take in the face of your fear will unlock a little more strength and courage and after it's done you'll feel rather strong and better about yourself just from having successfully stood up for yourself.

[ForeverDad]

A flame-out was almost predictable.  We all wish you could have gotten past the divorce waiting period but, well... . don't beat yourself up over it.  Maybe he'll calm down.

Can you get further advice from that lawyer before taking any major actions?

Whatever else you do, don't give him access to your accounts again.  Open that door and you're right back to where you were before.

I would consider that check as a lost cause, one way or the other.  If it's written on a closed account, all that would happen is it would bounce, I would imagine.

If it will calm him down and reduce the risk of him complaining to the judge ("She got me to sign and then look what she did to me!", then determine a way to calm him down.  Maybe tell him to sign the back of the check and you'll "cash" it for him?  He's triggered now, all he feels are the emotions and emotional impacts, I don't know if he can be untriggered.  Likely court is closed until Monday, so he has time to calm down.

Regarding any persons accompanying you, call them your helpers to move things, don't indicate they're there also to protect you or keep things from getting too much worse.

Lastly, are you recording his threats?  Know this, those were threats.  (In my area my court eventually ruled my ex's death threats weren't "imminent" and therefore dropped the case, but it helped keep us apart and me feeling safer during that initial separation period.)  You need to protect yourself and his actions need to be documented in ways that you can access later if necessary.  My advice, record all contact henceforth.

[Waddams]

Can you just go tot he bank and cancel the check?

[doubleAries]

I need to make this clear--stbx is bipolar with paranoid delusions, ASPD and NPD.

This isn't just an emotional blow up. He's truly CRAZY. ASPD used to be called "sociopath" for a reason. In the new world of politically correct "new speak", we say "anti-social" because it doesn't sound so stigmatizing and "mean". But the fact remains that an ASPD is still a sociopath/psychopath. There is more than a "potential" for dangerous violence. He's smart enough to commit violence without threatening it. And what is happening right now is the tip of the iceberg. It's a big part of what kept me trapped, afraid to escape.

I have to be very careful about who I ask to accompany me back over there to see what smoking ruins are left of my business. I can't minimize the danger they are being exposed to. And unfortunately, people who aren't used to dealing with truly crazy people will minimize it even if they are told (will believe I'm being dramatic, exaggerating). Even the police.

The check, I'm not worried about. I wrote him a check before I went to the bank. After I closed the account and opened another one, I just deposited the same amount of money as the check into his personal account because the check obviously wouldn't clear. He earned the money--he can have it. the bank told me they will tell him nothing about the new account, they will only tell him the original account is closed. And that if he goes berzerk in the bank, they'll call 911.

I definitely will continue taking the steps forward I need to take. Even if it is hard to determine what they are and whether they will get me killed or not. But this is pretty frightening. And I already know this is only the tip of the iceberg. IF I am actually able to escape, he will stalk me for the rest of my life.

[doubleAries]

It's not the check I am concerned about. He earned the money--it's his. I don't care about the check. I deposited the money in his account, and tore the check up. That part is done and there's no problem there.

What I'm concerned about is getting my head kicked off. After that foremost concern, my next concern is about $60,000 worth of uninsured inventory being destroyed, along with the property that is still in my name.

My next concern (which ranks right up there, actually) is being stalked for the rest of my life by a person who is absolutely delusional and in a rage.

[doubleAries]

Look all, I don't think I'm explaining this correctly. Let me try to make a point of reference here:

Most of the people here on these boards are (or have been) dealing with a BPD. Yeah, I've met some of those. They suck.

My situation is different. It's kind of the same, but X 10. Here's the simplest way to describe it. My mother fits ALL the criteria for the now removed from DSM4 Sadistic Personality Disorder with Borderline features. What Millon called "an explosive Sadist". If you think a BPD is bad, try a true sadist. They make the BPD's look like sweet little old ladies. If you need to see a few stories of what it's like to grow up with a sadist for a mother, read some of my other posts on other boards.

With this kind of background, this kind of point of reference (which, even though as a kid, you KNOW is crazy, it still gets "normalized" to a great degree, in order to survive), that's how you grow up and marry someone like my stbx. He's not "annoying". He's INSANE. Most serial killers and the like are ASPD's. Now take an ASPD and mix in some paranoid delusions and manic outbursts. That's when you wind up with those guys who shoot up movie theaters and such.

While stbx hasn't actually done that (yet?), that's his mindset. That's his kind of reality. He hears about those guys on the news and angrily sympathises with them, bellowing about how "nobody understands" and those "poor" guys are being railroaded. What about all the people he killed? Well, maybe he shouldn't have done that (said because he knows that's what he's supposed to say).

This is truly like a grade B movie, one so ridiculously dangerous it isn't believable. And there's me--right in the middle of it, struggling with stupid unconscious beliefs that it "must be my fault", and at least overcoming that enough to know I need to escape but not sure how or who can help me.

[livednlearned]

It's not the check I am concerned about. He earned the money--it's his. I don't care about the check. I deposited the money in his account, and tore the check up. That part is done and there's no problem there.

What I'm concerned about is getting my head kicked off. After that foremost concern, my next concern is about $60,000 worth of uninsured inventory being destroyed, along with the property that is still in my name.

Where I live, those would be magic words for an instant protection order. It won't reduce the danger your feel, and might make him worse, but it allows you certain protections, like calling the police if you are trying to move your business stuff and don't want him there.

[Waddams]

DA - if you have documentation of his threats, please don't be afraid to go to your magistrate and apply for a protection order.  If you don't have documentation, please go do it anyway.  Lots of times, they'll order it for short term with nothing other than an accusation as evidence.  I believe most jurisdications will allow for protection orders to be enacted based on "terroristic threats".  Take copies of your phone logs, etc. so you can tell the magistrate "he made this threat during this call at this time.  he threatened to <list out the individual threats>.  If you have proof of prior issues that show a pattern of abuse/violence (and violence doesn't have to be physical, it can be anything that causes emotional distress, fear, control, etc. - the threats that he has now made are violent behavior), take it, tell the magistrate about those issues too.  Show an escalating pattern of violent, threatening behavior. 

Ask for an order of protection that requires him to have no contact with you and requires him to leave the premises of your property on the grounds that you need protection for your business holdings on the property.  Hopefully the magistrate will approve the order, and then he'll be served.

That would give you enough time to perhaps get your business materials out, and also safely inspect and document the property's condition as of right now before the hearing on whether to issue a standing protection order.  Then if he causes any damages, you can prove it.

I know you're scared to death, but the more pro-active action you take right now to protect yourself, the better off you'll be.  It's okay to send a clear message to him that you will not tolerate being threatened, and further escalation on his part will bring about major repercussions.  At this point, you're not trying to get out of this amicably.  You are trying to get out of this safely.  Amicable and safe don't necessarily go hand in hand when dealing w/ disordered people.  And yeah, he'll flip out more when he gets served the order paperwork.  However, I believe that you are better off if you take a stand now, rather waiting for things to escalate to even worse later.

You can do this.  You can stand up for yourself, and stand up to his bullying.  You're dealing with the abuse cycle and the only way to stop it is to step out of it and not participate anymore.  You can take control of your own choices and actions and change this cycle so the abuse cycle stops.

All of this is just my humble opinion of course.  And I'm truly sorry that things have taken this turn for you.  I hope they turn around to something better for you soon!

[mamachelle]

I'm sorry this is going on. Please keep checking in as you can.

i think an OOP might help just so you can get police help and put them on notice-

I think police escort to the business is best.

Rent a truck and load up and move the business to storage or another temp location?

Can you or your therapist commit him?

(even 24 hours might help give you some breathing room)

Talk to your attorney soon too.

[Matt]

It's best if you have the threats documented, but where I live, you can get an "Order Of Protection" (like a restraining order) even if you don't.

What's critical is that you convince the court that you are afraid, and you have a reason to be afraid - you're not making stuff up.  That's not the same as proving he broke the law.  It just means that the judge decides that you are afraid - you can say "I am afraid." - and that you seem to be rational and reasonable.  Most requests for OOPs are granted.

I would not hesitate to do that if you have any concern at all about your safety.

And if he violates the OOP, that can bring severe penalties for him, especially if he does it more than once.

[doubleAries]

It's interesting how years long patterns can change in an instant. That is what has happened to me today.

I went down and chatted with the sheriff, whom I know pretty well (not just from the fire dept, but from political activities--same view, fortunately  ). Asked him, confidentially, what my options are, without actually making a report. He told me to pick up a restraining order packet and read it and think about it, and was also frank in saying it doesn't do much good until AFTER it's broken and that it usually plays out differently with someone with severe mental illness--often causing an escalation and sometimes triggering this mentally ill person to be more violent than they would have been without it.

I explained that I needed to move my business off the property and to somewhere neutral where employees--and myself--can show up for work without fear of "getting their heads kicked off", and he said deputies could do a civil standby while I move the business items, but that if stbx tells police to leave, they have to. So he said monday morning, I should go to the courthouse and, using my divorce case #, ask for a court order to remove the business items. Then the deputies can show up and prevent stbx from doing anything but watching as I move the business. I told sheriff that I was going to call stbx and see if he'd calmed down and try to talk to him. He said OK. Now here's where it gets "fun":

I picked up a supply order delivery at the bottom of the driveway and took it up, and there’s stbx, just getting up (at 4pm). Told him maybe we need to talk. He’s all snide with me—“wadda ya want to talk about?” Says obviously we aren’t partners anymore and demanding I reinstate his ATM card. I told him if he has legitimate business expenses, he can submit the receipts to me and I will reimburse them. He refused. Says he doesn’t want to be partners or work with me anymore. I asked him if he still wanted to buy the land from me, he said no and asked if I was kicking him out. I told him no, but if he isn’t going to buy the land, then maybe he better start looking for somewhere else to move to, or start paying rent. He said NO. Told me he wants to fight over all the assets, and that T told him that the land would be half his through marriage anyway and that he should fight me for it, and that that’s what he’s going to do, as well as fight me for the business (even though it’s a sole proprietorship in my name. By the way, the T called me this evening and told me that he definitely did not tell stbx that he should fight me for the property, that he’s been trying to encourage stbx to come to an agreement and call it emotional bankruptcy and move on).

I told him fine, bring it on. So he tried to call the courthouse and change the divorce paperwork but they were closed. So I told him I’m moving the business to a neutral location, so the other employees can come to work without fear of getting their heads kicked off. He wanted to know where I was moving it to, and I said that’s none of your business if you don’t want to work anymore or be “partners”. So he tells me that it’s his property now, since I moved, and I needed leave immediately. HUH? He’s kicking me out of my own house, off my own land? I told him NO. So he said you leave or I’m calling the cops on you. I said bring it—call them. So he did--he actually called 911 on me! He told the dispatcher that I had guns in my vehicle and was threatening him! I couldn’t believe the pack of lies he sat there telling the police dispatcher about me RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME! He told her that I stole all the money out of our joint partnership business account, and was threatening him with guns, and trying to kick him off HIS own property!

So I wait for the cops to arrive and they finally get there and I tell them the whole story—stbx and I filed for undisputed divorce, but now things were being disputed, he wanted to buy me out on the property but now he doesn’t, he wanted to continue working together but now he doesn’t, I showed them my car so they could see I had no guns in there, I showed them my Secretary of State paperwork proving the business is a sole proprietorship in my name only, I showed them my property title, I explained that stbx is mentally ill and having a little relapse and scaring the employees and threatening to kick my head off. I told them I want to move my business off the property so employees—and myself--can come to work without fear. They told me “you can’t dispose of property or assets while getting divorced” and I said “yeah, I know—I’m not talking about selling the business and taking the money-- I’m talking about moving it to a neutral place”. Then they called our T (on my advice) because stbx told them that he’s NOT mentally ill, I’m making it all up. The T told them the truth about his dx, and not only that, told them that he believes stbx has the potential to try to kill me some day and that he would definitely stalk me before, during and long after a divorce. He told them that he is also stbx's counselor, so he wasn’t saying this based on what I’ve told him, but on his own observations and conversations with stbx.

So stbx changes his story from what he reported to the dispatcher (he had to—it wasn’t panning out like he said, with some gun wielding standoff going on). At the end of all this, I asked the cops “just to be crystal clear here—I don’t have to leave? And if I want to move business property out of here, you aren’t going to stop me?” they agreed, and told me (in front of stbx) that Monday morning I should go to the courthouse and get a court order attached to the divorce papers itemizing what I want to remove from the property and the police will come and stand by while I do it to keep stbx from preventing it, or hurting anyone. Then they told him he had to let me on the property anytime I wanted to be, and that all they could do is come if I assault him (or vice versa), or come to enforce a court order. They told him he needed to move his truck from blocking access to the workshop road immediately. Then they left.

So it didn’t go quite like he’d planned. I guess he hoped the cops would come and arrest me for being on “HIS” property and then he could just hold the business hostage and not let anyone work so it could either be all his, or fail (you know—the old “if I can’t have it, no one can”). But that’s not what happened.

And now I’m tired of being scared. I’m p!ssed off. I’m FINALLY royally p!ssed off. The gloves are off. If this is the way he wants to play it, then BRING IT ON. Walking on eggshells has never worked. I’ve tried and tried to be fair, to come up with reasonable, fair agreements, and he’s been nothing but obstructionist and selfish. And I’m tired of it. This brings to mind years ago when someone told me “never let anyone kick your butt for free. You might get your butt kicked, but make sure they remember whose butt they kicked”. I’m there. Bring it.

[Surnia]

Oh DA

so much craziness in one person. Good you are sort of covered now by the police. At least for the last episode.

And now I’m tired of being scared. I’m p!ssed off. I’m FINALLY royally p!ssed off.

This made me smile. 

[ForeverDad]

Please tell me you listened to prior advice and recorded the confrontation?

I believe David has already chimed in that he lives in a restrictive two-party recording state but due to past incarceration due to his ex's lies he records himself and those around him any time he's anywhere near his ex.  He got burned bad, he's super careful now.  Learn from experiences like his.  (I record too, it helped me (1) when we separated and (2) defending myself before CPS investigators.)

My understanding is that your state is a one-party state, that is, you're allowed to record any conversation you're a party to without much worry of legal repercussions.  You need to protect yourself from his lies.  You may not lie, but you now have proof he will lie and lie dramatically and without remorse.  This time his lies were quickly exposed and deflated.  (Notice how he didn't suffer severe consequences for lying in a 911 call or to police?  That's typical.)  Next time it may not be so quick, easy and inexpensive.

Be sure to request a copy of the recording of his 911 call.  (They may delete them after a while, so don't expect them to hold on to them for years.)  Also get a copy of the police report and the names and badge numbers of the officers.

I too agree, odds are he may cause as much chaos and obstruction as he can.  You have to be very careful to be 100% businesslike and not handle this as a break-up or whatever.  Maybe with a break-up you could cuss each other out without consequences, but if you're his employer or even partner, doing the least thing wrong could open you up to all sorts of claims and lawsuits that would be very expensive to resolve.  Find out from your lawyer the 100% proper language to "let him go".  Do it without emotion, probably lawyer would state that you should keep the notice as brief as possible (say too much and you could get yourself into trouble) but make sure it is done 100% legally and by the book, you can't risk any legal fallout.  No one would expect you to continue working with someone who has caused conflict and made false allegations against you.

I would also suggest you be very careful not to verbally or in writing gift him any new rights.  Maybe he has a share of the business, maybe not.  Maybe he is/was some sort of partner, maybe not.  Maybe he gets a stake in the business that you have to buy out, maybe not.  Leave a lot of that to the lawyers, let them say exactly how much equity, ownership or whatever he has.  And if contested let the court or a proper settlement decide.  If you say/write something and you inadvertently gift him more leverage than he really has by those statements, it may be very hard and expensive to unsay or unwrite them.

It may all blow over quickly - let's hope so - but probably not.  You have to be very prepared in case it does get messy.  Looks like your lawyer has some work coming his way... .

[doubleAries]

We had a big talk today. The problem for stbx with this, is I am now in “the zone”. It is all clear as a bell to me right now. I laid down the law and told him in this particular matter (we discussed a few—the property, the business, and blackmail threats) here are your choices—which one do you pick? He got snippy and said “what am I? A kid? I have to choose whatever you lay out?” and I said yes—you do. And you will sign in front of a notary saying which option you choose. One of your options is to hire an attorney and BRING IT ON, where I promise you I will tear you limb from limb in court. I told him “while you are playing FaceBook, I am researching every possibility for world war 3. I am prepared—let’s do it” (for some reason, he is dead set against hiring himself a lawyer).

So the new and improved agreement includes that he still wants to purchase the property. I told him when he pays for it (whether all at once or in a few installments, depending on how his inheritance is distributed) I will give him the deed. If it is in installments, I will treat the property as his from the first installment. But I won’t quitclaim him the title until it’s fully paid for. Should he fail to uphold his end of this deal, he will have 30 days grace period to find another place to live before eviction proceedings begin. (option 2, which he declined, was: let’s go to court and fight over the increase in value of the property since our marriage, and option 3 was I get a restraining order and you get your butt out of here right now)

Under no circumstances do I intend to remain as “partners” anytime past the trade show at the end of June (if we continue with an undisputed divorce, we will be divorced in mid June). His options are:

Option 1: continue as we always have until after the show—with the exception that stbx has no access to business funds anymore, and will need to be reimbursed for legitimate business expense receipts with prior approval to have purchased the item(s), and I will call the police if he disposes in any way of other business assets, like stock or supplies—and after the show we do an inventory (minus debt) and come to an equitable agreement about him being bought out. Cash proceeds from the show will be divided evenly amongst us as pay for the show; all checks become business funds.

Option 2: Quit right now, do the inventory right now, and agree to terms for being bought out.

Option 3: Hire a lawyer and go to court.

He has agreed to option 1. I will make sure this agreement is written up and signed/notarized, and file it as an addendum to the divorce papers.

He continues to insist that half the business account funds are his. I told him in no uncertain terms that they are NOT. It belongs to the business, not him. That if he had taken ½ the funds out of the business account, then he is disposing of assets. My cutting off of his access to those funds does not constitute disposal—only protection, and that I can prove in court through bank records that I have not removed or disposed of any of these funds—aside from normal business action—in any way. He gets paid exactly the same amount as I do, as the business can afford to do so, as usual, until after the trade show.

Once an inventory has been made, credit card debt and ½ of the cost of the workshop (which would be $12,500) will be deducted from the asset value. ½ of that remaining asset value will be paid to stbx in a timely fashion, as can be reasonably afforded by the business.

As a private agreement that will not be included in the addendum, I have told him that if he keeps threatening me with IRS audits or continues calling the police on me in frivolous fits of anger, I will make authorities aware of all his outstanding felony warrants in other states.

I made clear that I am fully aware that he is likely to change his mind over and over—that is why I want him to sign an agreement. I pointed out to him that when I get mad at him, I don’t change the agreement. But his agreements are based on his emotions at the time. He agreed that this was true (whatever that’s worth—pretty much nothing). I refuse to try to accommodate him anymore. I’ve been more than fair, and he can accept the terms or fight it out. Either one is fine with me. But I am through negotiating. The above terms or court battle. Nothing else. The terms I’m offering are better than what the courts would give him--especially if he refuses to hire a lawyer and stands up there rambling that half isn't good enough and that 2/3's the market value on the property isn't good enough either, and that I need to be punished for dominating him with room temperature.

I actually feel pretty good. The driver’s seat is a good place (rather than passenger seat to a delusional person). I refuse to run or hide from him. A change has come over me—most of the fear is gone and I am confident. I will not be shaken from my resolve.

I know it's not over and there will be more drama. I already requested a copy of the 911 call and police reports (and I know both of the cops who came), and I called the sheriff today and told him about the agreements we came to and would be filing and made stbx speak to the sheriff and tell sheriff that he is going to allow me to move the business to another location without a court order. That way he can't say "I never said that!"

Stbx also resigned from the fire dept yesterday after the police interaction. This probably is for the best for himself (and the dept), as in the 12 years prior to joining the dept, he had only 2 minor relapses--both of which involved getting dosages correct at the beginning of treatment. But in the 3 1/2 years since he joined the dept, he has had 4 serious relapses. It's too overstimulating and he is not regulating himself well. It is encouraging that he is recognizing this. Maybe he'll get something of a grip here soon (which still won't eliminate all the drama, but maybe reduce it)

I am pleased with myself for the moment. In our conversation today, I did not lapse into or allow stbx to lapse into ANY rehashing of resentments or personal grievances. I truly was in "the zone". He knew it too--I could see it in his eyes. He moped around the rest of the day in a defeated mode, but he worked and there was no tension interfering with work.

I typed up the agreement already and emailed it to him, then will run it past lawyer to see if it is correct and makes sense, on Monday get it signed, notarized and filed. I hope the courts will recognize I am making a fair and generous offer to him and see his unreasonable demands for what they are.

Meanwhile I am going to go to some friends for Easter dinner, which is also my birthday this year. That means I get double the ration of chocolate!

[mamachelle]

phew.

All sounds to be going along a little better. At least he takes his meds. I know many many do not. He clearly lacks insight but he does seem to have some core respect/fear/need for you to be around. He truly wants to work I think and has a need to be needed as sick as that need is.

Keep lawyer, Sherriff, psychiatrist, and T on speed dial.

I agree with all who say record, record, record, and get that 911 call ASAP.


Happy Birthday. Go get that chocolate. I have to steal mine from the kids. 

[doubleAries]

LOL!

Fortunately, I don't have to push any little kids down to get their candy!

Yeah, he's sticking with his treatment, though he doesn't recognize when he needs to increase dosages of what--and bipolar can be tricky because of the vascillation between moods (have to be careful about anti-depressants during the manic phase, and careful about depressants during the depression phase--and his aren't really "phases"--he's bipolar mixed, meaning he gets manic and depressed at the same time). But he's understandably scared, because he has resentfully depended on me for so long to manage all this for him.

I know everything is not necessarily going to be fine. But I feel like a huge weight has been lifted just by getting into that place (FINALLY!) where I have stopped wasting time trying to get him to co-operate or be reasonable. That's not within my control. It is absolutely exhausting trying to control what you cannot control! I will still continue to try to steer this toward the easiest softest possible route, but be prepared for the hardest route. And this could possibly become magnificently stupid.

[doubleAries]

I typed up the agreement and took it to stbx on monday, asked if he thinks this is what we agreed to, he said yes, I said let's go get it notarized so I can file it. He said "nope--today's opening day (baseball). has to happen tomorrow or some other time." I said then I'll go sign it and and file it myself without your signature. Your actions can speak for themselves. So he decided to go sign it as well. I filed it. Am still waiting for the police report and 911 call (I go pay for that today) and am going to start moving the business in the next day or 2.

Should I also attach the police report and 911 call to the divorce or not?

[mamachelle]

DA,

Good to hear the progress... .   I would consult your attorney on what to attach and what not to attach.

Keep us posted.



mamachelle

[doubleAries]

Attorney is out of town for a couple weeks   (don't they always do that?)

I went down the the sheriff's dept to get copies of the police report and 911 call (have to pay for them--the 911 call is $25. No problem, it will make entertaining listening) and they are going to mail me the 911 call, but couldn't find the police report. The receptionist person said there wasn't a case number assigned and no report. Maybe because it was so stupid?

At first the cops seemed to think they were on a domestic disturbance call. It wasn't until the end of their visit they finally understood what was going on. They thought stbx and I were arguing or something. Then they figured out there wasn't an argument per se--just stbx thinking he could keep the business and property for free if he could get me arrested. The astonishment was evident on their faces. So maybe they didn't think of it as an actual "incident"?

gina louise--yeah, it can be confusing, the small difference between rapid cycling and mixed. In my stbx's case, he also has "psychotic features" (no hallucinations, but plenty of paranoid delusions--then throw in the ASPD and NPD, and things get pretty ugly pretty fast). And I know what you mean about the indescribable "off" thing---it can get so bizarre you can't really explain it to people, because you yourself can't figure out what the heck happened (let alone WHY--and that's what others want you to explain: WHY. They want to make logical sense of something that doesn't make logical sense).

*SIGH*

It's weird to have to work with him now. To me--not to him. He's acting same as usual. And "pretending that didn't happen"--back to the regular routine! That in itself is frightening to me.