How can you trust what they say?

[Kate4queen]

This sounds so minor compared to what a lot of you are going through but I wondered about the general concept. My high functioning 21 yr old son stormed out in the most abusive and hurtful way possible last October threatening us, claiming he wanted to be completely emancipated from us, especially financially because he was sick of us controlling him, etc etc etc.

Anyway, scroll forward to now. He's not in our house (and will not be in our house) he's living with another family, 3 miles away, but aware that his friend will want his room back when he returns from college for good in June. Also the financial settlement we offered him had an end date of June (we went with his claim of becoming financially independent and put it in his hands)

So, he hasn't been able to get a part time job. He is restricted having had major spinal surgery last November and mild cp. His emails have begun to contain an equal measure of desperation (save me!) coupled with some admitting that he might have made some terrible mistakes with how he dealt with everything back during the crisis. Remember this son is a master with words, they are his weapon of choice. He is incredibly charismatic and manipulative.

The thing is, I read these things and they still leave me cold. I don't feel vindicated or pleased, or angry, I just don't believe he really means them. I think he's just saying what he wants us to hear so that he can regain everything he's lost $ wise.

Isn't that horrible that you even think like that about your own child?

I don't trust him, I don't want him back. I love him and want him to succeed but I have no desire to kill the fatted calf and welcome him back.

We won't let him starve, obviously and we're working on a way to find him and his bro a place to rent/live so he won't be homeless or moneyless or alone even if we aren't there.

Is that enough?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[pattyt]

Isn't that horrible that you even think like that about your own child?

No, not horrible... .  rational.  It's so sad, but the reality is that we cannot trust what they say.

I don't trust him, I don't want him back. I love him and want him to succeed but I have no desire to kill the fatted calf and welcome him back.

We won't let him starve, obviously and we're working on a way to find him and his bro a place to rent/live so he won't be homeless or moneyless or alone even if we aren't there.

Is that enough?

My opinion is that's more than enough.  You are doing what you are comfortable with, can live with, yet protecting yourself and your feelings from more hurt... .  hurt that you know your son is capable of inflicting.

I'm in a similar position with my own dd/21 except that it is not she that is the manipulator but her bf, who has issues of his own.  She is completely under his control.  I don't know if her issues are due to his influence, BPD, ptsd, or a result of all of the above.  My hope is that she will one day realize this on her own, as she won't believe anything I tell her.

In the meantime, my eyes have been opened.  I have changed the locks on the doors of my home, and I have finally accepted the boundaries that have to be put in place for my protection.

Thanks, everyone, for preparing me for this.  Now I understand.

[lovesjazz]

Our son is very manipulative and lies to get what he wants.  It makes it very hard to have a relationship with him.

It is part of the illness. It is what it is, as they said.

[Mandii]

It is so hard to have any real trust.

Isn't that horrible that you even think like that about your own child?

Don't feel bad about that, sometimes I feel like I have to tell myself I love my daughter out loud, because I feel so negative sometimes. Just so little trust and worried and scared so often. Sometimes it is so hard to separate the bad from the good emotions.

[opheliasmom]

Dear Kate,

You may feel horrible, but you are not.  I love my 19 year old dwBPD very much, maybe even more since she has moved out.  However, I do not trust her and I really don't want her to move back in.  I am much healthier with her out of our home.  From our limited conversations it sounds like she may be healthier too.  Stick with your boundaries, your very smart son just may surprise you.   

[qcarolr]

kate4queen - a couple of questions.

Did the original financial offer, that expires in june, inlcude providing for his food, home, etc? Are you able to step back from this and remind yourself of your boundary?

It is very very hard to have feelings of care for our kids. I am taken in by my DD's verbal abuse too much lately -- then she gets with friends and is all cheerful. I give her a ride away just to get her out of the house. Do not yet have the will to put her out on the street again.

How to be connected and protected at the same time. This is my big paradox. Have tried NC before - just too much misery inside for me.

qcr  

[JKN77]

I understand completely where you are coming from. My son does the same thing, only he will actually tear up sometimes. Of course that makes me think he is finally getting it, and maybe he does, but it never lasts. I too want my son to move out (again). Our home is much more peacefull when he is not here. My husband and I are trying to think of a way to help him get on his own - but then I wonder if I am being a co-dependent by not making him accomplish this on his own. Part of me thinks he can and the other part doubts it.

Our older son has other issues, not like this, I won't go into that, but we are actually thinking of buying a cheep house that they can rent from us because the (payment) rent would be cheeper than an apartment and then they can afford to be on there own. Tell me that is not going overboard.

You are being too hard on yourself. I think you are a good mom who is human and also know that there comes a time when they do need to be on their own. He can get a job, he just needs to want to pretty bad.

[qcarolr]

JKN77   

My dh and I are thinking the same as you for our DD26. She has been trying to get SSI for a long time - lack of documentation in medical records gets in the way. She refuses to trust anyone enough to be honest about her disabilites that prevent her from getting a job.  In our case I believe she is truly unable to work without some kind of job or life coach - the last SSI hearing the vocational expert and pdoc there on behalf of SSI said this. But judge still denied DD - it is in Federal court now. Praying for a positive outcome, though we may not hear until Setpember (one year from filing of this 3rd level of appeal).

It is a hard thing to figure out, providing a place to live. Whether this is 'enabling' or 'supportive'. Since our DD has been homeless, and she could not qualify for the housing resources (too many misdeamnors, and some domestic violence), and she cannot work I am thinking this would be supportive. Overall, until the past few weeks down cycle, she has been more stable at home than on the street.

We are sticking to our boundary of no overnight guests in the since the live-in bf broke up with her. He had been struggling to participate in the family since Chirstmas that he spent with his mom. Lots of rejection there from his FOO. Glad he is gone, and we do not want a repeat. All of dd's friends have been homeless or are homeless. We know if she gets her own place there will be rommies that are homeless and just a troubled as she is. Radical Acceptance. If we can figure out how to own a property, Dh will be over there on a regular basis for maintenance. It will still be a very messy place - DD is so unorganized ("slob' is such a harsh and judgemental label, though that is the reality).

When DD is in a more stable place, it is easier to believe what she says to us. When she is in a down place her reality is skewed very far from ours. She morphs into this mean bully. I know that she knows at some level that she is being mean.

So ponder what will happen for you boys if you do get them a place and how they will do without one. If they would most likely be more stable, more likely to do therapy or job counseling then it might be worth it. Best to not have too many expectations though.

Hang in there. Keeping you in my thoughts and prayers.

qcr  

[Kate4queen]

kate4queen - a couple of questions.

Did the original financial offer, that expires in june, inlcude providing for his food, home, etc? Are you able to step back from this and remind yourself of your boundary?

It is very very hard to have feelings of care for our kids. I am taken in by my DD's verbal abuse too much lately -- then she gets with friends and is all cheerful. I give her a ride away just to get her out of the house. Do not yet have the will to put her out on the street again.

How to be connected and protected at the same time. This is my big paradox. Have tried NC before - just too much misery inside for me.

qcr  

He went to live with a friend's family and as I understand it, they didn't ask him for rent-(I don't think they expected him to be living with them for 6 months though, but to be honest, they shouldn't have interfered in the first place ).

We wrote a very specific letter to him setting out the $ we would give him, that included, his community college fees, his car insurance, his food etc, gas. We paid all outstanding medical costs from his surgery and his COBRA until this March when it ran out.

This first attempt at setting our boundaries was to help shock him into working out how much everything cost and how his claim that he would be financially independent of us in a few months was not quite realistic.

What's happened is, June is approaching and his friend is coming back from uni and the family are making strong hints that my son needs to leave. Our financial agreement was until June because he grandly assured us he would be done with us by then.

Obviously he's in panic mode now because nothing has worked out how he thought it would and of course, his instant response is 'save me!" Give me what I want!' Despite the fact that he basically treated us like dirt. That's why I don't believe he means anything he says because once he gets what he wants, he'll be back to ignoring us again.

The problem is his 19 year old brother is in his cult and nothing we can say can stop the 19 yr old wanting to stay in CA and share a place with his brother... . we are being held to ransom again.

We've spent a long time thinking this through and we've decided the only thing we can do, (if we want to leave the door open for our 19 year old to come back to us), is to go along with their plan and offer BPD son one more year of financing and then that's it. We're going to be very specific about what he gets and not change the amount at all.

It's not ideal but we have to be pragmatic at this point and neither of us is quite ready to walk away completely yet. We wish him well and want him to be successful, just not living and terrorizing the rest of us.

Ugh

[Kate4queen]

JKN77   


It is a hard thing to figure out, providing a place to live. Whether this is 'enabling' or 'supportive'. Since our DD has been homeless, and she could not qualify for the housing resources (too many misdeamnors, and some domestic violence), and she cannot work I am thinking this would be supportive. Overall, until the past few weeks down cycle, she has been more stable at home than on the street.

So ponder what will happen for you boys if you do get them a place and how they will do without one. If they would most likely be more stable, more likely to do therapy or job counseling then it might be worth it. Best to not have too many expectations though.

Hang in there. Keeping you in my thoughts and prayers.

qcr  

Thank you,

We decided not to buy them a place because then our BPD son would never move out. We're going to offer them a set monthly sum and then it is up to them how they work that our rent-wise, food, cars etc etc. I think it will be good for them and will also mean if they want to do anything fun, they'll have to get part time jobs etc (younger son does, older can never find anything that works for him, go figure).

That's the acceptance bit for us, 'here take this money and you sort it out. We're not looking for apartments for you, or making things right, do it yourselves.'

My current concern is that most of BPD son's friends are slobs, losers and potheads. If they all decided to get a house together, we have already told our two that we will not pay a deposit for any of those guys or co-sign. We're hoping our two will find something in a relatively cheap area where they can stay together-but again, I'm forcing down my instincts to fix it for them and letting them work it out.

Our house is going on the market soon and we are moving to Hawaii. They need to get a move on.

[Kate4queen]

I understand completely where you are coming from. My son does the same thing, only he will actually tear up sometimes. Of course that makes me think he is finally getting it, and maybe he does, but it never lasts. I too want my son to move out (again). Our home is much more peacefull when he is not here. My husband and I are trying to think of a way to help him get on his own - but then I wonder if I am being a co-dependent by not making him accomplish this on his own. Part of me thinks he can and the other part doubts it.

Our older son has other issues, not like this, I won't go into that, but we are actually thinking of buying a cheep house that they can rent from us because the (payment) rent would be cheeper than an apartment and then they can afford to be on there own. Tell me that is not going overboard.

You are being too hard on yourself. I think you are a good mom who is human and also know that there comes a time when they do need to be on their own. He can get a job, he just needs to want to pretty bad.

Thank you.

Everyone we've talked to has told us not to buy them something because they will never have the incentive to get their ___ together and move on, and I tend to think that's correct, although buying is cheaper than renting around here too. But they'll have to live somewhere not so nice for a while and maybe that will give them the incentive to get through college and get good incomes.

I'm tired of all three of my sons doing the 'well you're rich, my friends think you should pay for everything."

We earned every penny ourselves and have to watch out for our retirement etc etc because I'm not seeing any of my kids helping out.

And what is weird is that my BPD son has managed to sort out his own car insurance and is working on his state medical insurance, so he obviously can do stuff when he's forced to. That give me hope. I've stopped responding to the jump and help me NOW calls from him anymore. It really helps sitting back and having the time to think with him not being physically in my face.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[qcarolr]

And what is weird is that my BPD son has managed to sort out his own car insurance and is working on his state medical insurance, so he obviously can do stuff when he's forced to. That give me hope. I've stopped responding to the jump and help me NOW calls from him anymore. It really helps sitting back and having the time to think with him not being physically in my face.

Yes - I am so relieved when DD goes to town to hang out with her homeless friends each weekend - Friday through Monday often. This gives us a break. And as I am getting myself better grounded after a tough couple months (lots of demands in all areas of my life and winter colds, fatigue, darker days, etc) things will be better. And really, dh says we need to wait it out. She will be going to jail in next couple months for total failure to do any of her probation requirements.

Thinking about it - DD will just have to be homeless if she cannot manage self-control in our home. We just have no resources to do otherwise, and she will trash (literally) anywhere she lives. And we would have zero control over who lives there with her and what illegal things are likely to go on. They all have substance abuse issues, petty theft, no jobs or intermittent jobs. So for now, she is a transient in our home.

qcr  

[opheliasmom]

 :'( My dwBPD came home at 1:00am this morning.  "Mommy I miss you and I want to come home... . " Ahhhhh, I don't believe much of what she has to say.  It was a peaceful few months, now I am back on the roller coaster.  Maybe all of the parents should move to Hawaii and leave no forwarding address.  

[twojaybirds]

My knee jerk is  You can't believe them.

Although when they speak there may be truth in it at the moment, it won't necessarily stay nor can it be called upon to discuss.

My dd was say how much she loves and misses me then BOOM  I am on the sh-list for some reason or another. If I try to remind her of her endearment to me she will deny it. 

[Kate4queen]

yeah, I suspect once he knows what we're offering he'll be quiet for a few weeks and then he'll start complaining that it's not enough etc, etc. Hopefully by then I'll be in Hawaii.