psych evaluation

[Eco]

My uNPD exgf is holding my month old daughter hostage from me , she isnt letting me see her since I wont sign her visatation agreement she wrote up herself. I am talking to my lawyer thursday, I was wanting to get a psych evaluation done on my ex but im worried it will not do any good and make things worse for me. I have seen a more vindictive and vicious side of her since last week , Im really worried the courts will not see her for what she really is. im heart broken right now because I dont know when I will be allowed to see my daughter.

any advice is welcome thanks

[AnotherPhoenix]

  Welcome to this board, Eco!

I understand your concerns. It sounds like you are already doing the right things by setting up an appointment with a L. You should interview several, since your going to be using this person for a while.

If you haven't gotten the book Protecting yourself While Divorcing a Borderline or a Narcissist

by William A. ("Bill" Eddy, Esq: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=47078.0

The psych eval may need to be be further down the divorce process.

Hang in there, and keep taking good care of yourself.

AnotherPheonix 

[momtara]

You can get an order to show cause that will force her to allow you visitation.  Make sure you hold onto (or gather) any emails, texts, etc. to prove that you have peacefully asked to see her, if such communications should exist.  Since she could try to get a restraining order based on false info, don't show up there without police or witnesses.  It has been done to people before.  I think getting a lawyer first is a good bet.

I have wondered about psych evals too.  You can hire your own expert.  I've heard it's quite pricy.

[scraps66]

If you search on my name you can find a lot on psych evals.  A good psych eval should run around $2k, no more.  But, on it's onw, a psych eval is probably not going to get you anywhere.  The pscyh eval results could be a precurosr to the court requiring a full-blown custody evalaution which could be used to dictate custody.  Maybe not.  Be careful, I am chasing my ex right now who had avoided for nearly two years getting a court ordered psych eval.  In the end, she chose her own Dr., a quack with little experience with the MMPI-II and not court experience.  If your gf is uNPD, mine is too, you will likely endure these same games, "WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT, THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH ME - IMA NARCISSIST!"  Find a very skilled and reputable Dr. and make sure that name is in the order.   

[momtara]

I was told that in my area, a psych eval will be 10K MINIMUM.

A lawyer just told me that I should get one right away.  Other lawyers have told me that it may not help, and will only waste money.  Eek, so hard to know what to do!  Not sure if the lawyers are just out to run up my fees, or are doing the best. 

[scraps66]

I'd be curious to know what they consider a psych eval - are you sure it is not a "custody evaluation"?  $10k would be high even for a custody evaluation.  A psychological evaluation is usually a part of a custody evaluation.  Also be aware, lawyers will tell you to get a custody evaluation to give their Dr. friends work, and because there is a ton of litigation that goes along with a custody evaluation if used to determine custody.

deltabravo is also a good source of information on this stuff.  In particular there is good info on the MMPI-II which is the widely accepted test administered for a psychological evaluation.

If your L is telling you to get a psychological evaluation, first, make sure he has a plan on how to use it, what will happen next that will justify the expense.  Also, be aware, if your gf gets one - you will likely have to get one too, and pay for yours, maybe hers.

I would first find out what is included in a $10,000 psych eval.  Mine was $1900 for tests that took 4 hours.  Basically it works out to be 4 hrs x the Dr's pay rate.  So I'm guessing that "psychologcial evalaution" your L is talking about is quite a bit more than what I'm calling a psycholgical evaluation.         

[ForeverDad]

I have noticed in some members' posts that a "psych eval" in their area is an equivalent to what is considered a comprehensive "custody evaluation".

For most of us, a psych eval is taking some tests.  For me, it was administered by a psych student from a local university and was two pages with just a few lines extending over onto the second page.  And it said absolutely nothing about custody issues or recommendations.

For most of us, a custody evaluation is administered by someone recognized by the court as expeienced to administer psych tests, interview the spouses and children, observe the interactions and make recommendations regarding custody, parenting time schedule and other related concerns.  We just need to be aware that in some places it may instead be called a psych evaluation.

[momtara]

Well, apparently there are two kinds.  The court can have its own evaluator do one.  This may not be all that comprehensive.  Or you can hire your own expert to evaluate both of you and do a thorough evaluation.  It may run up the bills as high as $10,000, from what I'm told.

... .   and, from what i read here, it may not make much of a diff anyway... .  

[scraps66]

What it may do is more or less substantiate the decision to require a full blown custody evaluation.  Custody evaluators in my courthouse are consistently described as, "sucks," so usually going with someone who, although well respected by the court, is not enlisted by the court would usually be someone with more credibility.  There are a few in my area that have tons of bad press on them on the internet.

One other thing that happened in my case, right at the start of custoyd, I was dead set on having a CE done, using the court's evaluators would have been $4k.  Anyway, what the Master told me was, "I'm not putting this family through all that stress right now at the start."  Bascially denied my request for the CE.  Here I ma four years later, jsut today, having my children withheld on me on my parenting days.  Taht same master then one year later, would require me and my ex to get a "psychological."  Nothing more than that, just a "psychological."  Field day with that, with no specifics many psychologists balked becasue there was no reason given and no specific tests specified for the "psychological."  Very bad adherence to court procedures. 

What I'm saying is, get educated on the process - on your own - and then inquire with your L about what to do.  If the L is consistent with your own research, you two can then evalaute the situation to bring the swiftest resolution.  Firstly here, and I hope your attorney is discussing this with you - you need a custody order, a parenting plan, something that explains where the little girl is and when.  You are in a tough spot becasue your daughter is young and the court will try to appease mother with that in mind.  Regardless, your are the dad and you have rights just like your gf, and just like your daughter.   

[ForeverDad]

The only valid reasons for your parenting (I prefer that word over 'visitation' to be blocked are:

• You are not the parent



• You are substantively abusive



• You are substantively neglectful

If you're the father and there is no documented or evident abuse or neglect, then you should have, at a minimum, what your local family court lists or issues as their guideline schedule for non-primary parents.

However, without a court order stating otherwise she can do as she pleases and you're powerless - and that's not good for you, not at all.

This doesn't mean you should not apply to the court or inform the court that your child would do best with you as the primary and decision-making parent.  That is something to get On The Record from the very beginning, something to build upon as the months and years pass, since she is sure to obstruct, invalidate, delay and sabotage more in future years.  Odds are she will stay in control of custody and majority time, at least for now, but it's good to (1) get a court order so your parenting time is clearly specified and not subject to her whims, moods and constant re-interpretation of the order and (2) get it on record that you have grave concerns about her parenting and the high risk of continued parental blocking and in the future alienation attempts as your child grows older.  (In my case, the Custody Evaluator summarized firmly, Mother cannot share the child, but father can.  Sharing is crucial and you need to remind the court that her example thus far is one of blocking, not sharing, and it will almost certainly be her inclination, both subtle and dramatic, in future months and years.)

No, do not sign a visitation agreement that doesn't at least meet the minimum schedule for a reasonably normal non-primary parent.  That schedule ought to be (  ) your worst case scenario.  (Okay, reality check, as a start the court may make a temporary order gifting you mere hours of visitation at a time, but it's a start and you can only go UP from there.)  So if she's offering less than the local minimum time (for a baby or toddler it's usually alternate weekends and a few evenings or overnights in between) then head to court since you'll get better results from court than from her.  However, there can be a vast difference between what ought to be and what it actually turns out to be.

And don't sign anything without a family law attorney's review and approval.  She almost surely omitted the holiday schedule and vacations ("extended time" which virtually all family courts include when issuing parenting orders.  She probably added that you can't travel very far away with your child too, any unreasonable restriction unless there is basis.  She probably also reserved for herself the discretion to cancel your visitation whenever she decided to say No.

[david]

I am in Pa. (bucks county) and they have a court eval and a private eval. The court eval has to be agreed to by both parties. It is much cheaper in price. I forget the price (I think it was about $5,000) but it was a complete waste of time and money. You actually have to sign an agreement that removes all responsibilty of the evaluator and if you have problems with the report the evaluator can not be called into court to explain anything. A private eval starts at about $6,000 and depending on who and how the price can double or more.

We used the court eval which made no sense. I had to hire a private evaluator to be a witness to the errors in the court eval. That was $5,000.

Now that I have been abused by the system I have realized that it is all about money and have a very negative view of the court system. I believe finding an attorney that knows how to play the game better than the others works the best. That is the key to any legal process.

[momtara]

did the 2nd eval make a difference?

[david]

I hired a private evaluator just as a witness to testify that the court ordered eval was flawed. I ran out of money after that.

                                                                                         

When I had money to get a private eval I found out that the evaluator I found to testify could not do an eval because he already testified and that would be a conflict. I couldn't find another evaluator that was as good as that evaluator.

                                                                                                                                      I talked to many people about him when I first found him. He was very thorough with everyone that used him. He did psych tests, interviewed both parties, talked to the kids, came to both residences, and required schedules from both parents to know where they would be with the kids and showed up to observe. He would show up at an event, keep his distance and observe interactions between parent and child. One person I talked to said he took his kids to a park on a regular basis. In his report the evaluator indicated he was there on three occasions and gave enough details to make the person say he must have been there even though he never seen him. He started at $6,000 and would require more if he needed more time. From what most people explained he took at least six months but usually longer to make a decision. He also testified.

I did use a private evaluator later and she made no decision except to say that "it would be a good idea for the children to see their father more".

[Eco]

thanks everyone for your advice, I feel very dejected right now so the support is helpful.

You can get an order to show cause that will force her to allow you visitation.  Make sure you hold onto (or gather) any emails, texts, etc. to prove that you have peacefully asked to see her, if such communications should exist.  Since she could try to get a restraining order based on false info, don't show up there without police or witnesses.  It has been done to people before.  I think getting a lawyer first is a good bet.

I have kept all texts between us, the most recent madness from her was saying how im being selfish in wanting to see my daughter, her reasoning is that my daughter doesnt get anything from seeing me because she is so young. bonding between us doesnt matter and she doesnt need a father till she is older, the only thing that she needs right now accourding to my ex is being fed breast milk and me coming around to see my daughter only stresses my ex out and causes her to not produce milk as good . ive offered to go to another room but thats no good she says.

If your gf is uNPD, mine is too, you will likely endure these same games

she is very skilled in the court system and what she can and cant do so im very worried about dealing with her in that area, she is very cutthroat and goes for the throat hard and goes for the kill with no regaurd to anyone caught in the middle she has to win at all costs. she plays the victim very well, I have never dealt with a person like this before she has been a wide awake nightmare for me.

What I'm saying is, get educated on the process - on your own - and then inquire with your L about what to do.  If the L is consistent with your own research, you two can then evalaute the situation to bring the swiftest resolution.  Firstly here, and I hope your attorney is discussing this with you - you need a custody order, a parenting plan, something that explains where the little girl is and when.  You are in a tough spot becasue your daughter is young and the court will try to appease mother with that in mind.  Regardless, your are the dad and you have rights just like your gf, and just like your daughter.    

Im very nervous about going through the court system but I think I will get a more fair( im using that word lightly) deal then what my exgf was wanting to give me.

The only valid reasons for your parenting (I prefer that word over 'visitation' to be blocked are:

•You are not the parent

•You are substantively abusive

•You are substantively neglectful

If you're the father and there is no documented or evident abuse or neglect, then you should have, at a minimum, what your local family court lists or issues as their guideline schedule for non-primary parents.

However, without a court order stating otherwise she can do as she pleases and you're powerless - and that's not good for you, not at all.

I agree with you on that, im none of those things so im not worried there. however firstly i need to get legitamized as the father as she left me off the birth record and in my state as a unwed father I have zero rights untill then.

This doesn't mean you should not apply to the court or inform the court that your child would do best with you as the primary and decision-making parent.  That is something to get On The Record from the very beginning, something to build upon as the months and years pass, since she is sure to obstruct, invalidate, delay and sabotage more in future years.  Odds are she will stay in control of custody and majority time, at least for now, but it's good to (1) get a court order so your parenting time is clearly specified and not subject to her whims, moods and constant re-interpretation of the order and (2) get it on record that you have grave concerns about her parenting and the high risk of continued parental blocking and in the future alienation attempts as your child grows older.  (In my case, the Custody Evaluator summarized firmly, Mother cannot share the child, but father can.  Sharing is crucial and you need to remind the court that her example thus far is one of blocking, not sharing, and it will almost certainly be her inclination, both subtle and dramatic, in future months and years.)

right now untill she gets older I will be happy with seeing my daughter 1 day during the week and on the weekends, I want to bond with her and not be a stranger. I most certanly will bring out in the open how she is being difficult and not wanting to share time with me.

No, do not sign a visitation agreement that doesn't at least meet the minimum schedule for a reasonably normal non-primary parent.  That schedule ought to be ( ) your worst case scenario.  (Okay, reality check, as a start the court may make a temporary order gifting you mere hours of visitation at a time, but it's a start and you can only go UP from there.)  So if she's offering less than the local minimum time (for a baby or toddler it's usually alternate weekends and a few evenings or overnights in between) then head to court since you'll get better results from court than from her.  However, there can be a vast difference between what ought to be and what it actually turns out to be.

And don't sign anything without a family law attorney's review and approval.  She almost surely omitted the holiday schedule and vacations ("extended time" which virtually all family courts include when issuing parenting orders.  She probably added that you can't travel very far away with your child too, any unreasonable restriction unless there is basis.  She probably also reserved for herself the discretion to cancel your visitation whenever she decided to say No.

yes her agreement was shady at best it has many areas of grey and it all benifits her, she offered this as my visatation. mon 2pm to 6pm ( I get out of work at 2 pm and she lives 30 min away so already cutting into my time) sat 8 am to 12pm and these time can be changed as she gets older if both parties agree, thats it for visatation.

an example to show how cruel my exgf is, she cancled my sat visit because of going to church for easter then when i showed up mon to see my daughter she said I had to sign her agreement before I could see my daughter I tried to talk to her about the agreement and told her I was not going to be forced into signing something I didnt agree on and that she was holding my daughter hostage she replied " if youre not going to sign this then you can leave" my ex was standing right in front of me holding our daughter and she refused to let me see her.

so she forced me to leave a house that I pay half the rent on, a couple of weeks ago while i wasnt around she took my keys to the house. I am on the lease which is up in augest, I havent lived there since last augest when we moved in me and my 9 yr old son have been staying at my parents house. when I asked for my keys back she said " you dont live here and you have no things here so you dont need them, ask any judge and they will agree with me"

I will be addressing that with my lawyer thursday as well

[momtara]

yes, definitely address that.  good luck!

just be careful of her making up a false charge to get a restraining order to keep you out of the house.  that seems like a popular act among BPD women.

[ForeverDad]

the most recent madness from her was saying how im being selfish in wanting to see my daughter, her reasoning is that my daughter doesn't get anything from seeing me because she is so young. bonding between us doesn't matter and she doesn't need a father till she is older, the only thing that she needs right now according to my ex is being fed breast milk and me coming around to see my daughter only stresses my ex out and causes her to not produce milk as good . ive offered to go to another room but that's no good she says.

No, for you to have your time, it has to be your time, not conditional on her moods and whims, not supervised by her right there or from the next room.  You need to be free to take her to your home, visit friends, visit parks, etc.  You'll never get that from her, not willingly, it will have to be domestic/family court.  May as well get the process started.  First thing is to get an experienced lawyer.  Then file to establish paternity and get significant unsupervised parenting time.

She's breast feeding?  Good, all children should get that good start in life.  However... .   your child is not breast feeding 24 hours a day.  Also, there are neat inventions such as breast pumps, nursing bottles, refrigerators and freezers that allow her to express her milk, bottle it and give them to you when you pick up your child for your parenting time.  Wow, amazing she didn't think of that, right?

[david]

MxBPDw breast fed too. Our first boy was the golden child. Looking back now I realized it was too stressful for her to be a stay at home mom and she decided to go back to work. She started using a breast pump at work and would bring it home.

The first time I tried to feed him a bottle of milk everything started off fine. He drank half the bottle and kinda pushed it out. I figured he was done so I put him on my shoulder and burped him. He fell to sleep and I put him in his crib. In about 10 minutes he woke up wanting more so I prepared another bottle and he drank half and went to sleep.

The next time the same thing happened.

The third time I noticed that when he drank half the bottle he not only was pushing it out of his mouth but also trying to turn to the other side. I turned him to the other side and he finished the second half of the bottle. He was just teaching me how it's done.

Whoever says babies aren't communicating never had a baby or ever paid attention to them.

[Eco]

No, for you to have your time, it has to be your time, not conditional on her moods and whims, not supervised by her right there or from the next room.  You need to be free to take her to your home, visit friends, visit parks, etc.  You'll never get that from her, not willingly, it will have to be domestic/family court.  May as well get the process started.  First thing is to get an experienced lawyer.  Then file to establish paternity and get significant unsupervised parenting time.

I agree 100% with you on this, she watches my every move with my daughter to make sure i do things the right way (her way) no peace untill i have visatation away from my ex

She's breast feeding?  Good, all children should get that good start in life.  However... .   your child is not breast feeding 24 hours a day. Also, there are neat inventions such as breast pumps, nursing bottles, refrigerators and freezers that allow her to express her milk, bottle it and give them to you when you pick up your child for your parenting time.  Wow, amazing she didn't think of that, right?

I suggested that idea and she does use the breast pump but she refuses to give up that control to me. its sad really

tomorrow is when i see my lawyer I hope all goes well, thanks again everyone