Communication Issues? Changed from 50/50 to Basic visitation.

[Allure]

Hello,

If you haven't read my intro, I married a wonderful man who has a PD Ex wife. I was not sure before but my father in law said that she does have mental illness and is supposed to be on meds and my sister in law said she does have a Personality Disorder but not sure what type.

If you have experience and have successfully navigated this type of communication, please let me know if DH is handling it properly or if there is anything else he can do. He tends to ignore her emails and not respond which I think infuriates her more. He said that by responding, he is engaging her and the communication will not stop. Emails are sent and cc's to Parenting Coordinator but he really does not do much about it.

Anyhow, she sends emails from 1x/day to 5x/day from the middle of the month to the end of the month. We think it is probably related to her woman cycle exacerbated by her having Double Reproductive Systems.

This is the pattern of her emails(from 1x/day to 5x/day):

1. She sends an update email regarding kids' achievements, mostly with SD, with her participation with pictures regarding the kids' activities.

DH does not respond.

2. Then she sends another email demanding my husband to come and watch and participate with my SD's extra curricular activities(we live approximately 1,700 miles away, roughly 26 hour drive or 4 hour flight).

DH does not respond.

3. Then she sends a barrage of emails that my husband is a deadbeat father and he abandoned the children and he needs to be ashamed, etc.

DH does not respond.

4. Then she sends an email asking my husband to pay half of her expense for hotel and food due to SD's extracurricular activities, 1/2 her expenses on the children's amusement park, etc. And if he doesn't respond within the allotted 24 hr timeframe, he will be forced to pay.

So, then DH is forced to respond which he always refers her to her Attorney for financial questions due to hearing is pending for all these extra expenses that she is asking DH to pay but never agreed on(close to $50,000 probably more now).

She believes that DH owes her all this money citing their original parenting agreement when they shared 50/50 custody, 1/2 expenses even though DH filed for a modification of parenting agreement from Shared Custody to Basic Custody and her child support was increased.

It was already explained to her by her previous Lawyer(who dumped her because she would not listen to him) that DH is not obligated to pay her all the extra expenses. She thinks the Judge will rule in her favor.

I am not worried- hubby does not have money and will have to pay her minimum payment if the Judge says he has to.

Forgot to mention she has focused on elevating SD over my two SS.

[mrclear]

Hi Allure,

I think first of all it's important for you to know what an inspiration you are to your husband. It's important for us ex-partners of PD's to have a supportive partner who we know we can rely on. I myself have a new partner who understands what I am going through and is ready to be there for me when I start to ruminate and when times get tough. That is so important to us!

Eventhough you are in LC with e-mail, whIch is a must when dealing with PD and kids, it will always be difficult. It's important to stand your ground and set boundaries.

Ok, e-mail about curricular activities I would respond too. A simple "Thanks, nice to see they are doing well" will suffice. No more. That way she can't make you husband out to be an irresponsible jerk who's not interested in his kids.

E-mail with demands. A classic follow-up... .   If it's possible, by all means go. If not then a "Our shedule doesn't allow any extra trips at this point" will do.

Insulting e-mails. No reaction! It is never ok to verbally abuse anybody. She needs to learn this. Let's not forget your dealing with a an emotional 3-year old in an adult body... .  

Any e-mails about custody and money need to be differed to legal instances. It's not right to discuss it with her. Respond as you did. "Thanks for the info, I will forward it to lawyer, court etc."

In e-mail contact it is always important to be polite, respectful but firm. No insults, no aplogies, no admonishments or demands. Set boundaries. Save her e-mail correspondance, so you have some proof of how unstable she is. Your stability in these communications is therefore important.

I would make sure your husband has a somekind of phone or skype connection with his kids. Be positive and loving with them. Have them visit you as often as possible. The stress-free environment will do wonders for them. They will remember this when they grow up.

I wish you strength and light :-) mrclear

[Thunderstruck]

As a non, I personally would be frustrated if I was trying to communicate with someone and they didn't reply. So when that happens to the pwBPD, they escalate the frustration into a rage. I get it. I would also suggest the same as mrclear, it's ok to respond (with the frequency that you are comfortable with) about the kids and keep it short and professional-like.

On the other hand, if the pwBPD is only sending e-mails fishing for attention... .   That's where it's a fine line to walk. I am constantly telling my SO to stop engaging with his uBPDx... .   of course her texts are about the kid (they always are) but 20 texts per day is just her wanting his attention and there is no real communication happening.

[DreamGirl]

Boundaries are about us and protecting our values.

Ignoring communication can be kinda passive aggressive. It also can cause a pwBPD to extinction burst (up the ante to get a response).

So when we set boundaries, we have to keep that in mind, and we have to keep in line with who we are and want to be.

Example:

I have a value that I think communication about important matters regarding the kids should remain between the biological parents (my husband and his ex-wife) and so, I have a boundary when it comes to communication with the hubs' ex-wife.  I won't engage in conversations that are about court matters (child support, divorce decree, parenting time) regarding their children.

She knows my boundary, I told her when she was calm and centered. So, when she tries to boundary bust, I express my boundary, kindly but firmly (staying true to who I am). "I get what you're trying to say, but you know I won't go there... .   "

So I think your husband is trying to keep the communication to a minimum as to keep the conflict low.

That's good.

He just has to be able to express that to her, and not just leave her guessing.

If she's looking for a response, and he keeps rewarding the times she emails with threats, she'll keep emailing with threats. Is there a way that he can only check emails on Saturday - and respond every Saturday? Mentally prepare himself?

I think mrclear gave you some really good advice:

Ok, e-mail about curricular activities I would respond too. A simple "Thanks, nice to see they are doing well" will suffice. No more. That way she can't make you husband out to be an irresponsible jerk who's not interested in his kids.

E-mail with demands. A classic follow-up... .   If it's possible, by all means go. If not then a "Our shedule doesn't allow any extra trips at this point" will do.

Insulting e-mails. No reaction! It is never ok to verbally abuse anybody. She needs to learn this. Let's not forget your dealing with a an emotional 3-year old in an adult body... .  

Any e-mails about custody and money need to be differed to legal instances. It's not right to discuss it with her. Respond as you did. "Thanks for the info, I will forward it to lawyer, court etc."

In e-mail contact it is always important to be polite, respectful but firm. No insults, no aplogies, no admonishments or demands. Set boundaries. Save her e-mail correspondance, so you have some proof of how unstable she is. Your stability in these communications is therefore important.

I would make sure your husband has a somekind of phone or skype connection with his kids. Be positive and loving with them. Have them visit you as often as possible. The stress-free environment will do wonders for them. They will remember this when they grow up.

 

[Allure]

Hello All,

I appreciate all your responses and advise.

I specially thank you MrClear for your appreciation.

She can only communicate with DH via email cc’d to PC due to Protective Order against her that she is very angry about and blames me for it being filed 

PC ruled that if DH does not respond in 24 hours then she can unilaterally decide on the children and DH may be forced to pay.

DH says ExPDW is wanting to engage and have an ongoing communication and DH does not want to so he chooses how, when and what to respond. My concern is that if DH does not follow the PC rules, is this going to backfire on him during the hearing?

DH emailed he can only respond on Wed and Sat due to he is unable to check personal emails when he is traveling for work(which is true). ExPDW emailed back demanding his Commander’s phone number to verify if this is true.

So, now DH emailed PC asking if he can only check his emails 2x/week and ExPD’s request is inappropriate. DH has not checked his email since then so I don’t know PC’s response.

So, how do we approach setting a boundary if the PC ruled for DH to respond in 24 hours. Do we bring this up in Court?

What is a reasonable communication pattern in this instance? We can only get the children 3x per year due to distance and time constraints.

DH is actually very good in setting his boundaries and he even sets boundaries with me re: talking about ExPDW and the hearing and states he refuses for his life to be taken over by her and this hearing and he wants to live his life.

I can understand where he is coming from but I am concern about repercussions if any, in court. What do you think?

Again, I appreciate all your responses.

[mrclear]

Hmmm... .   a tough one... .  

A couple of details missing:

Is your husband paying child-support right now?

What are these extra expenses he just has to pay if he doesn't answer within 24 hours? Amusement park? That means she can basically charge him for anything. Hardly seems fair... .     Good you got in touch with the PC and explained your situation. They should be able to adjust the ruling.

Definitely bring it up in court if it comes to that. Make sure you have proof. Don't give her any numbers as she will be given opportunity to make a ruckuss behind your backs. That doen't look good on any resumé. :-)

Reasonable communication is letting the kids know you are there for them, that you miss them and love them. I skype with my kids twice a week and add the occasional telephone call. However, if you have an uncooperative exW, this can be difficult.

Your husband is right about wanting to live his life, but he has kids and has to realise he's going to be dealing with this for a long time. (at least until the kids become independant). Blocking it out won't help. If you're on the same page, it will actually strengthen your bond. Remember to take time-out for yourselfs though ;-).

Another alternative: Have you tried SET communication skills? There are some postings on the boards about e-mail communication (BIFF) and keeping a peaceful communication with PD-individuals. It's basicallly a set of communication skills to let the PD's feel they are taken seriously (even if you don't) and to take the anger/blaming/insulting out of the communication. Although your H ex seems pretty far gone, it could be worth a try... .  

Here's BIFF

Remember BIFF When Responding to Hostile E-mails

Hostile e-mail exchanges have become huge in divorce. Blamers love sending them and use them to attack you, your family and friends, and professionals. It’s extremely tempting to respond the same way. Hostile e-mail has also become huge in family court, as a document used to show someone’s bad behavior. While you are encouraged to save copies of hostile e-mail sent to you, it is very important that you not send hostile e-mails to anyone. They will be used against you. Instead, assertively use a BIFF response, as described next, and encourage people in your support system to do the same. It will save you a lot of wasted time and energy to be brief, informative, friendly, and firm.


Do You Need to Respond?

Much of hostile mail does not need a response. Letters from exes, angry neighbors, irritating coworkers, or attorneys do not usually have legal significance. The letter itself has no power, unless you give it power. Often, it is emotional venting aimed at relieving the writer’s anxiety. If you respond with similar emotions and hostility, you will simply escalate things without satisfaction, and just get a new piece of hostile mail back. In most cases, you are better off not responding. Some letters and e-mails develop power when copies are filed in a court or complaint process—or simply get sent to other people. In these cases, it may be important to respond to inaccurate statements with accurate statements of fact. If so, use a BIFF response.

Brief

Keep your response brief. This will reduce the chances of a prolonged and angry back-and-forth. The more you write, the more material the other person has to criticize. Keeping it brief signals that you don’t wish to engage in a dialogue. Just make your response and end your e-mail. Don’t take your partner’s statements personally and don’t respond with a personal attack. Avoid focusing on comments about the other person’s character, such as saying he is rude, insensitive, or stupid. It just escalates the conflict and keeps it going. Make sure to avoid the three “A’s”: admonishments, advice and apologies. You don’t have to defend yourself to someone you disagree with. If your friends still like you, you don’t have to prove anything to people who don’t.


Informative

The main reason to respond to hostile mail is to correct inaccurate statements others might see. “Just the facts” is a good thing to keep in mind. Focus on the accurate statements you want to make, not on the inaccurate statements the other person made: “Just to clear things up, I was out of town on February 12, so I would not have been the person who was making loud noises that day.”

Avoid negative comments, sarcasm, and threats. Avoid personal remarks about the other person’s intelligence, ethics, or moral behavior. If the other person has a high-conflict personality, you will have no success at reducing the conflict by making personal attacks. While most people can ignore personal attacks or might think harder about what you are saying, high-conflict people feel they have no choice but to respond in anger—and keep the conflict going. Personal attacks rarely lead to insight or positive change.


Friendly

While you may be tempted to write in anger, you are more likely to achieve your goals by writing in a friendly manner. Consciously thinking about a friendly response will increase your chances of getting a friendly or neutral response in return. If your goal is to end the conflict, then being friendly has the greatest likelihood of success. Don’t give the other person a reason to get defensive and keep responding.

This does not mean that you have to be overly friendly. Just make your message sound a little relaxed and nonantagonistic. If appropriate, say you recognize your partner’s concerns. Brief comments that show your empathy and respect will generally calm the other person down, even if only for a short time.


Firm

In a nonthreatening way, clearly tell the other person your information or position on an issue; for example, “That’s all I’m going to say on this issue.” Be careful not to make comments that invite more discussion, unless you are negotiating an issue or want to keep a dialogue going back and forth. Avoid comments that leave an opening, such as, “I hope you will agree with me that…” This invites the other person to tell you, “I don’t agree.”

Sound confident and don’t ask for more information, if you want to end the back-and-forth. A confident-sounding person is less likely to be challenged with further e-mails. If you get more e-mails, you can ignore them, if you have already sufficiently addressed the inaccurate information. If you need to respond again, keep it even briefer, and do not emotionally engage. In fact, it often helps to just repeat the key information using the same words.

Example of BIFF Response

Joe’s hostile e-mail: “Jane, I can’t believe you are so stupid as to think I’m going to let you take the children to your boss’s birthday party during my parenting time. Have you no memory of the last six conflicts we’ve had about my parenting time? Or are you having an affair with him? I always knew you would do anything to get ahead! In fact, I remember coming to your office party and witnessing you making a total fool of yourself, including flirting with everyone from the CEO down to the mail-room clerk! Are you high on something? Haven’t you gotten your finances together enough to support yourself yet, without flinging yourself at every Tom, Dick, and Harry?”…

Jane’s response: “Thank you for responding to my request to take the children to my office party. Just to clarify, the party will be from 3:00 to 5:00 on Friday at the office, and there will be approximately thirty people there, including several other parents and their school-age children. There will be no alcohol because it is a family-oriented firm, and there will be family-oriented activities. I think it will be a good experience for the kids to see me at my workplace. Since you do not agree, then, of course, I will respect that and withdraw my request, because I recognize that it is your parenting time.”


Here's SET

S= Support refers to an initial statement which indicates the loved one supports the person with borderline personality. It is a statement that begins with "I" and demonstrates concern and a desire to help. The support statement is meant to reassure the BP that the relationship is a safe one, and that her needs matter even during this difficult moment.

E= Empathy refers to communicating that the loved one understands what the BP is feeling, and focuses on "you." It is not a conveyance of pity or sympathy, but instead a true awareness and validation of the feelings of the BP: "I see you are angry, and I understand how you can get mad at me," "How frustrating this must be for you."  It is important not to tell the BP how she is feeling, but instead put her demonstrated feelings into words. The goal is to convey a clear understanding of the uncomfortable feelings she is having and that they are OK.

Truth

T= Truth refers to a realistic and honest assessment of the situation and the BPs role in solving the problem. It is an objective statement that focuses on the "it" -- not on the subjective experience of the BP or Non-BP. Often the BP may seem to be asking, or demanding, something impossible, not taking an active role or responsibility in resolving the issue, or even presenting you with a "no-win" situation. The truth statement is meant to clearly and honestly respond to the difficult demand or behavior of the BP, while placing responsibility appropriately: "This is what I can do…," "This is what will happen…,"

good luck, mrclear

[mrclear]

Oh, here's a little example of my own.

Since my udexBPDw is in a new relationship, she has nearly broken of all contact with me. She has not informed me about the fact that the kids were meeting him, nor where they are on weekends etc. She is using the kids as messengers and putting pressure on them. Basically all the parenting-mistakes you can make. I was p****d, frustrated and sad, but it is beyond my control. I can only try and stay in contact with the kids and affirm my love for them.

Here's the e-mail I wrote:

Hi A,

I am writing you this e-mail as a parent. Please know that it is meant in the most positive and sincere way.

First of all, I would like to express my happiness about you finding a new, serious relationship in your life. Please know that I see this positively. It has been a hard year for all of us, dealing with loss, pain and the rigors of building a new future. I am happy that there is light at the end of the tunnel for you and that you are finding peace, love and happiness. However, that in itself is none of my business, but of course I do have the worries and concerns as a parent of the children we share.

I can also understand your reluctance to inform me that A. and S. were meeting K. Our communication has been distant and strained, so I can comprehend your motives. It's probably also better to build a new relationship without the outside distractions and interference of a past one. New relationships are fragile and I can relate to taking things one step at a time to see how things work out. I would probably feel the same.  From what the children tell me, K. seems like a great guy and they have a lot of fun with him. As you said: "As long as they're safe and happy". :-)

Despite all the new impressions and events in your life, I would like to ask you to help me keep my communication with our children alive. Of course this is mainly my responsibility, but my possibilities are limited from this distance and I am really doing everything I can to stay in contact with them. I also appreciate the fact that you are being more forthcoming about their visits. Maybe, from time to time, you can let me know how they are dealing with and feeling about their new situation, or how I can support them in this positive development. I believe I have a right to know about significant changes in their personal life. I feel that a marriage of fifteen years with children owes me that. You are my only, adult access to them and you can add more insightful information than the discussions and thoughts that they are able to share as children. Please know that this is not a demand, or something that I feel you are obliged to do, but more a polite request to further put our past differences behind us and work towards a more positive kind of co-parenting as much as time and distance will allow. Of course, it's important for both of us to understand that the information we share should only be events, thoughts and changes that concern A. and S.

Once again, I am sincerely happy about the new developments in your lives and wish you all the best for the future.

M.

I have tried to use SET and BIFF as well as I can, but am still new to it. It's annoying we have to bend over backwards to and hide our true feelings, but I have to keep telling myself it's about the kids, not her! They will thank me for it in the long run. Still, chances are this e-mail will be met with hostility, but I will still be able to look at myself in the mirror. I wonder what they see when they do?

atb, mrclear

[Allure]

Hmmm... .   a tough one... .  

A couple of details missing:

Is your husband paying child-support right now?

What are these extra expenses he just has to pay if he doesn't answer within 24 hours? Amusement park? That means she can basically charge him for anything. Hardly seems fair... .     Good you got in touch with the PC and explained your situation. They should be able to adjust the ruling.

Definitely bring it up in court if it comes to that. Make sure you have proof. Don't give her any numbers as she will be given opportunity to make a ruckuss behind your backs. That doen't look good on any resumé. :-)

Reasonable communication is letting the kids know you are there for them, that you miss them and love them. I skype with my kids twice a week and add the occasional telephone call. However, if you have an uncooperative exW, this can be difficult.

Your husband is right about wanting to live his life, but he has kids and has to realise he's going to be dealing with this for a long time. (at least until the kids become independant). Blocking it out won't help. If you're on the same page, it will actually strengthen your bond. Remember to take time-out for yourselfs though ;-).

DH has always paid child support and more since they divorced 5 years ago. At that time he had them 50% of the time and he still allowed for his child support to be calculated based on Basic Visitation(full child support), instead of Timesharing(50% child support). This with her putting her income as 0.

Problem came about when DH could not get them 50% of the time anymore and ExPDW wanted him to pay 50% of all children's expenses citing their parenting plan where it says they are to share 1/2 expenses, even if it was explained to her that she actually was getting a full child support. Then she wanted him to pay medical bills that she did not even submit to the Insurance DH provides for. I can go on and on.

So, DH went back to court to file for modification of PP from 50% Timesharing to Basic Visitation and specifically included that if child support modification is warranted, then, child support shall be modified.

So, now child support is increased but she still wants him to pay 1/2 all the extra expenses citing their original pp.

All of this started after we got married. DH says it has nothing to do with money. It has everything to do with the fact that she lost control over DH and she blames me- the new wife for it. DH says it is about her being vengeful.

Lately, we noticed her emails are getting out of control so we don't know if it is because she has a new Attorney and she is feeling confident or she is not taking her medications. My father in law said she is supposed to be on meds but I don't know exactly what.

Appreciate your recommendations in how to respond to her.

[mrclear]

Hi,

DH is right. It isn't about money. It's about an unstable personality. She can't move on, is lonely (even with kids) and blames everybody but herself. It's a trademark. Don't be too upset by her antics. She's thrashing like a fish out of water. The problem is that she is sabotaging herself and (if she's not careful) her relationship with her children. Time is your friend here. Just stay strong, respectful and polite. Don't give her anything to respond or grab on to.

I wouldn't worry too much about it. Take a break from this. You're husband seems like a good guy who pays his dues and faces up to his responsibilites. The courts will recognize that. As long as she has no legal basis, I wouldn't pay anything extra. How can she expect you to pay more when she's putting everything in the way of communication and has no proof of backing up extra costs? Let her do the legwork and respond legally when the time comes.

It can all be exasperating at times. Having to deal with these things constantly. It's important to maintain boundaries. You need to live your own life as your H says. This woman is not the keeper of your pleasure and pain, you are. Remember that. 

atb, mrclear

[DreamGirl]

When we are in a state of frustration with another person, I wouldn't assess too much as to what her feelings are or why she's doing something. We tend to project in those moments.

If you think in terms of "she just can't stand to see me happy" it just creates resentment and hostility.

I think there is a time and place to understand the behavior surrounding BPD. I think to truly understand it, you have to come from a more centered place. Anger tends to not allow that kind of space.

She's struggles in regulating her emotions. Doesn't really matter why she's doing anything, she's still going to keep doing it. You simply have to adapt and respond (not react).

I think you're noticing a pattern. Patterns are great in this. My stepdaughters mom is full of patterns and knowing when she's going to "act out" has proven to be invaluable in adjusting the response to keep the conflict minimal.

So like in your situation, towards the end of the month, know that you're going to get a barrage of emails. Prepare yourself and like mrclear suggested, respond only to the pertinent parts of them.

SET communication has absolutely defused about 80% of my husband's arguments with the mother of his daughters. You have to be in a place where you're not taking this stuff personally. That takes time and healing. I'm not sure that your hubs is ready for that yet. 

I don't think ignoring her completely is really an option either though. Reducing communication to Wednesdays and Thursdays, except in an emergency, is perfectly reasonable. Especially when she is the primary custodial parent and is making the majority of the day-to-day decisions anyways.

I also think that the Parenting Coordinator is attempting to solve mom's issue of your husband ignoring her completely by making the consequence of ignoring her to mean that he complies. PC just wants him to respond to important matters regarding the kids. I think that's reasonable as well. 

Find the compromise in between and it probably will help matters greatly.

[Allure]

Hello Both and thank you again for your insights.

Mrclear, she actually just sent us (through Lawyers) accumulated receipts since they divorced including gas mileage, YMCA membership just to name a few. But we are taking a break and are not going to deal with them until much later

DreamGirl, I get what you are saying. I think your recommendation would work if ExPDW has resolved all her marital issues. ExPDW still blames DH for their marriage failure via emails(after 5 years of divorce and 2 years of separation).

The more our marriage becomes stronger, the more DH is aware that he was not the problem in his previous marriage(as he has been led to believe during their marriage). Because of this, the more DH becomes indifferent to her and does not get pulled into her drama. He does respond to pertinent questions regarding the children but he refuses to give her validation.

We noticed something that is odd. We went back and actually read all her emails to make sure we did not miss anything incriminating. DH reads all her accumulated emails on the same day at once and yet ExPDW would pretend on her emails as if DH read them right away and would actually thank DH for doing what she instructed him to do even if DH did not do anything she instructed him to do.

Is she losing it or what?