craziness post divorce/no custody order

[nowheretogo]

Ex is now escalating his craziness.  He moved into an apt. over 2 weeks ago, but has been coming and going from my house at will.  Our marital settlement agreement states that he has until 4/15 to move out, but my attorney said, yes he has moved out.  I had the locks changed this weekend, and texted him to let him know this morning and said if he needed to get anything else out of the house, that we could arrange it.  He has been out of control since I am not agreeing to having a 50/50 custody arrangement with our D2, which would allow him the opportunity to get child support later on if we did get a court order (I am sure the sole purpose of his desire for me to "be amicable" with this).  After texting him about the locks, he sent me a barrage of return texts, which he always does, about how he is now going to keep D2 until we can agree and that I have "proven to be unstable and that I can't be amicable".  He says I violated the order (by chanigng the locks?) She spent the night at his place last night.  He keeps pressing that he wants her on the every other weekend that is the same weekend that I have my S7, so that I have one child each weekend.  He is missing the point that neither 50/50 custody nor being separated from her brother are in her best interest.  He keeps maintaining that I can't be amicable, that I am attempting to keep him from seeing her, etc.  My L sent his L a message prob. two weeks ago saying that I agree to every other weekend, with him having this past and then alternating, and that he can pick her up from daycare whilst he doesn't have a job until I come and get her after work.  He keeps saying that he can't see her on the other weekends, because he is on call for his pseudo part-time job as a sober house manager (that has only had one resident to date and had only paid him $75 as of about 3 weeks ago) and that he has 3 friends with siblings who get their kids on the weekends that he wants her and therefore his request is justified.  Not to mention his saying, "Sorry, but it's not my problem.  I'm not the one who has a kid from another father (no, he has 3 other kids from 2 other mothers)."  and "You're the one who wanted the divorce, so this is  how it's going to be."  I have explained that my parents are coming this coming weekend and gp have rights in our state, and that it is my weekend, to which he maintains that he will have her for at least Fri. night and Sun night because that is the weekend that is "good for him".  He is also making up bs about his S19 having to work on the weekends that he doesn't want to have.  Of note, this past weekend, I maintained it was his weekend and he could pick her up Fri and have her until Sun. evening.  But it was his bday fri, and he went ahead out of town Fri evening (got her from 3-7 pm).  On Sat around noon he texted me that he could get her by 1230.  I replied that she was having a play date, and I could let him know when it was done... .   which got a barrage of text replies stating he told me he'd be back early Sat am (no he didn't) that I'm trying to keep him from seeing her and all of that same old stuff.  Then he texted me at almost 8 pm that he would be home all night if I felt like dropping her off.  what the heck?  He could have picked her up anytime Sat. afternoon, but I think he was still out of town and  just manipulating the situation in writing to try to make it look like I am denying him.  He got her Sun am and when I told him last night that I was coming to get her at 6:15, he told me no.  This is so gd crazy, I can hardly take it anymore.  oh, I left out the part where he came to the house this past Wed. and was raging so much that two neighbors came over.  I was trying to leave with D2 to get away from the situation and he pushed me out of the way and yanked her out of the car.  I spoke with L that night, and should have called the cops, but let it go because the last time I called they said this is "Not a police matter".  I am going over to get her tonight, and if he raises a stink, I am planning to dial 911.  What other advice do you have?

[ForeverDad]

My L sent his L a message prob. two weeks ago saying that I agree to every other weekend, with him having this past and then alternating, and that he can pick her up from daycare whilst he doesn't have a job until I come and get her after work.

I hope L didn't leave it open-ended.  There has to be a time limit on it.  You already know he has no incentive to get a real job and allowing that without a clear end date is enabling him to keep on doing this.  Since his move was originally scheduled for 4/15, why not have that be the end of his near-daily encroachment in your life?  One point you need to establish, if at all possible, is that he does not encroach on your parenting time without clearly specified written just cause.  Of course that likely goes both ways.

The perfect time to press for a clear distinction between your parenting and his parenting is at the time of the separated residences.  Yes, he's left already, but I suspect you can set the limit for pickups at the written "move out by" date.  Do you have your own arrangements prepared and in place?

He keeps saying that he can't see her on the other weekends, because he is on call for his pseudo part-time job as a sober house manager (that has only had one resident to date and had only paid him $75 as of about 3 weeks ago) and that he has 3 friends with siblings who get their kids on the weekends that he wants her and therefore his request is justified.  Not to mention his saying, "Sorry, but it's not my problem.  I'm not the one who has a kid from another father (no, he has 3 other kids from 2 other mothers)."  and "You're the one who wanted the divorce, so this is how it's going to be."  I have explained that my parents are coming this coming weekend and gp have rights in our state, and that it is my weekend, to which he maintains that he will have her for at least Fri. night and Sun night because that is the weekend that is "good for him".  He is also making up bs about his S19 having to work on the weekends that he doesn't want to have.

You can't reason with someone who isn't listening to reason.  You've tried and failed.  Stop fretting over his obstructions and trashing.  Knowing that, what do you do?  Make sure all statements (anticipate that requests and pleas will fall on deaf ears) are made or written with the added expectation of being read at some future time by the court, social workers or evaluators.  Write it with them in mind, not for him, you already know he's a hopeless cause.  Of course, keep it simple so you don't invite him to get himself triggered, but write it as though it is your documentation for later, which it is.

His S19?  S19 is an ADULT.  There is no basis for him to be referencing an adult as basis for a specific weekend schedule, well, maybe he does have reason and wants S19 to care for your son while he's doing whatever or nothing?

Believe us, court is 99% sure to review the existing parenting schedules with other minor children and rule accordingly.  Courts try to keep the children together and synchronizing visitation weekends is standard.  Him trying for an exception and split the kids to different weekends (almost surely) won't work.

As for the rest of his endless chaos attempts, accept that it's his modus operandi (MO) and go ahead and do as you decide is best, with the general advice of your lawyer of course.

Edit:  A few people here have sometimes stated, don't make room in your head for that posturing.  In the grand scheme of things, odds are the court will just brush his emotional blah-blah-blah posturing to the side and ignore most of it.  Yes, they may try to 'compromise' with him and you, but you need to be careful not to give him a break and then court add more breaks on top of your break.  You just need to be sure you are acting and reacting firmly with reasonableness and boundaries and in line with how family court usually sees things.

I left out the part where he came to the house this past Wed. and was raging so much that two neighbors came over.  I was trying to leave with D2 to get away from the situation and he pushed me out of the way and yanked her out of the car.  I spoke with L that night, and should have called the cops, but let it go because the last time I called they said this is "Not a police matter".

Pushing is unwelcome physical contact and is a No-No, a bit different than verbal conflict.  Did the neighbors see it?  Ask lawyer about that.  If it were me, I'd at least ask the neighbors to write dates statements what they witnessed and when.  A statement may not mean much to the court, my lawyer always said you can't cross-examine a piece of paper, but if that ever does happen, you'd be able to show it to them to refresh their memories.

I am going over to get her tonight, and if he raises a stink, I am planning to dial 911.  What other advice do you have?

There is higher conflict now, it's coming down to the wire now with custody issues next, perhaps "now or never" in his perception, the risk of an incident is higher now.  Bring a trusted witness with you or record yourself, or both.  Going to his 'turf' is especially sensitive.

[nowheretogo]

The only time limit he put on it is until 6 pm when I get her from work; and I am pissed that he sent it without my reviewing it first, because I had changed my mind and didn't even want him to say that he could keep continuing the daycare pickups, but L just sent a letter. 

I think you are right, we need to use the 4/15 end-date as a new start-date for some form of a parenting schedule. 

Yes, I have arrangements in place, and can both drop her off and pick her up from the daycare.

I don't know who I could possibly bring with me to get D2 tonight... .   how would I record myself?

[nowheretogo]

Well, S7 will be with me when I go to get her.  But I'm sure he's not a credible witness, right?

[ForeverDad]

No, S7 is not to get involved as a witness.  All these months of conflict and you haven't been recording?   Is there no one among co-workers or trusted friends who can help you figure out the recording aspect?  Many cell phones can record.  Or go to someplace like Radio Shack or online and purchase an MP3 player that can also record, or a voice recorder that can upload the files to computers.  (I happen to have 3 Olympus voice recorders, the only problem with these older models is that they need proprietary software installed to access and copy the files.)

Matt would probably tell you to inform lawyer sternly not to ever send an important letter without you reviewing it first.  And never send something that is open-ended or doesn't set clear limits.

Mr. Other Lawyer,

Now that ex has moved out and is residing elsewhere, this is to serve as a reminder that since the two parties now have separate residences, my client has instructed that ex does not pick up their child on the days their child will not be spending the evening or overnights with him.  This will commence starting on hit which coincides with the date the court set for them to have separate residences.  You will appreciate that it is best for both parties to begin living separate lives and settling into their separate parenting arrangements.

We have already expressed our position that alternate weekends for your client beginning with hit weekend and the Thursday evening in between is appropriate until the court sets a schedule.   It may be that your client doesn't see things that way, but if need be that can be resolved in court, if we don't settle it earlier.

My Lawyer

I have no idea how legal that is, but it sure sounds reasonable.

[nowheretogo]

I do have some recordings, but they are illegal   L has informed me that I should not even mention them to any professionals, in case ex were to find out.

[nowheretogo]

I will make sure that the letter sending never happens again pre-approval.  And never is open-ended or without clear limits again.  I am really worried about the long-term impact of this first letter and feel like choking L, except I didn't explicitly say "make sure I see it first", so it's really my fault, but still makes me sick. 

[ForeverDad]

If it helps, view a second letter as clarification of the first?  After all, in part it would be confirming that the agreed-upon move out did occur.

[nowheretogo]

Yes, ok, you are helping to make me feel better.  Unfortunately, I guess L is too busy to get in touch with me today... .  

[GaGrl]

You are only one week from the April 15 deadline for his moving, so you need to get anything and everything clarified this week, if possible.

I believe many custody agreements specify visitation as the 1st and third weekends of the month, (or 2nd and 4th), with the non-resident parent getting a fifth weekend if and when that happens.  If your son's agreement specifies that, you can use the same wording.

With his escalation to physical interference, you have something to use to lock in a temp agreement.  It's the best possible reason for moving to a set schedule that he can't argue with.

[nowheretogo]

But unless he actually does something to force an emergency temporary hearing, we are going to be stuck with "trying to agree" on what L proposes, just as we already are, and we can see how that is going.  As long as there is no order, he is going to argue, and I'm certainly not going to give in and let him have her as much as he wants until then either.  L thinks it may be several months until there is an order because we will wind up going the route of custody evaluations... .   I hate to hope for physical abuse... .   but short of it, I don't know if I call the police because he is yelling and refusing to turn her over tonight will do anything other than shut him up for a few minutes.

[nowheretogo]

I will be at work until about 5, and at ex's near 6 pm.  Will have S7 with.  Should I leave him in car while I go to door to get her?  How far in advance should I send a message that I am coming?  Does the message have to be by email, or is text ok?  I am getting soo nervous. 

[GaGrl]

But he HAS done something to justify an emergency hearing - he has shoved you and grabbed the child.

[catnap]

I am so sorry that your ex has escalated things.  However, he is doing a lot of things that will not make him look good to the Judge.   

But he HAS done something to justify an emergency hearing - he has shoved you and grabbed the child.

And perhaps a restraining order as well?

He has also threatened to keep the child from you until you give him what he wants.  Keep those texts. 

How did the pick up go? 

[nowheretogo]

well, in classic crazy style, after sweating all day long, I texted him on the way home that I would be there around 6:15 to get her and he replied "OK."  What the heck?

There was an email from his L to mine around 4 pm saying that I had changed the locks and he still has things to get out of the house and he would have ex request times and dates and that hopefully some would work for me.  Nothing else.

I talked to my L just before texting ex that I was coming to get D2 and he said he didn't think he would keep her from me... .   he was right, but I was shocked.  Of course this is also a preface to him soon asking to keep her overnight in another day or two, and then raising cane when I disagree, saying that he cooperated, but I can't be amicable, yadda yadda yadda.

[catnap]

Another extinction burst?  Perhaps talking to his L? 

The email from his L: gives you an opening for the 2nd letter to straightened out pre-school pick up, request an itemized list of things he wants from the house, and address getting the photos. 

A written itemized list will let you pack it up or gather in one place, and all he has to do is pick it up. . .no excuse to overstay, or "find" something else, etc.   

[nowheretogo]

I guess if I had called the police last Wed, I might have had grounds for an emergency custody hearing, maybe.  But I didn't.  I feel like I call them when I shouldn't, and don't when I should.

catnap, I think it may have been talking to his L, and his L is pretty good with him. 

I am thinking about another letter like you said, as well, and did mention to L yesterday... .   although not about including the list of things.  I am pretty sure that he is going to say he also wants to get wine glass racks and shelf off of the wall (not in the settlement agreement) as a way to make sure he gets into the house.  What is that all about anyway?  He just wants to spy on me?

[nowheretogo]

Now he just sent me a text asking me what the schedule for getting D2 this week is.

Should I just reply with something like "I will pick her up from you after work.  My parents will be here Fri-Wed, so she will stay with me for that time.  Next weekend will be your weekend."

He is going to throw a fit, maintaining that I am trying to force him to take those weekends that aren't good for him, and that I am trying to keep him from seeing her and when will he have another overnight (next weekend).  But I need to stick to it, right?

[ForeverDad]

Toddlers and preschoolers throw fits too.  But most eventually grow up.

[nowheretogo]

Yeah, I know.    I sent a text saying "I will pick her up from him today at 6:15".  L has already sent his L a letter stating that I agree to every other weekend and him picking her up at daycare until I get home from work around 6 pm.  According to that letter, this coming weekend is my weekend.  I have stuck to this schedule in any (very little) correspondence that I have had with ex.  I am planning to just have L resend a letter to clarify the schedule one more time for now (with intention to edit the daycare pick-up arrangement in the near future), and also to include having him list what he still needs to get from the house so that we can try to get that done as efficiently and non-invasively as possible.

His reply (to my text above):  "I want to know the rest of the week."

I have been ignoring, but think I could safely say, "Same thing".  (meaning today-Fri.).  I have already stated multiple times that my parents are coming this weekend and it is my weekend and that his weekend should be the following one.  Also, my parents are staying until Wed. am, so am planning to also have L clarify this in the new letter, letting him know that he can resume getting her again Wed. afternoon.  Of course he will ask for "make-up time". 

ugh.

Do you think this plan sounds ok?

[GaGrl]

It's all a crap shoot until you have an agreement signed.

Stay consistent with what you already told him and refer him to your lawyer.

He has no more right to make-up days than you do. There is no permanent agreement.

[livednlearned]

Waiting until there is an agreement in place is going to make your life living hell. You know that he is not going to agree to your terms, that there will probably be a custody evaluation, so why not move this forward at a faster pace? Can you suggest mediation? I don't know how it works in your state, but there must be something that can get a date on the calendar where you two officially try and sort this out. You know and we know that it will fail, but at least you are not waiting and waiting and waiting.

But the good news is that he's out -- focus on the incremental successes! There is a lot of failure flying around when we divorce pwBPD, so when you do something assertive, even if it's to correct a mistake, take note of it. That's what will help build your strength, recognizing every small boundary you set, acknowledging every time you assert yourself, noticing every moment you feel strong. 

[Forward2free]

LNL's right, moving faster will be better for all. In fact, failing at mediation can also make the court process work faster because you gave it your best and it didn't work... .  

[livednlearned]

Keep an eye on your lawyer too. Sounds like one that doesn't understand BPD, so you'll have to be extra vigilant. Definitely tell your L you do not want any letters going out without your express consent and approval. When I asserted myself with my L, it earned me her respect. There are normal people out there who aren't like our BPD exes, and they respond in positive ways when we tell them what our boundaries are. You can do this 

[catnap]

I had another thought on the items he still needs to get. . .you could drop them off (assuming you get an itemized list) at his lawyer's office, or you can plan to have a neighbor or friend over when he comes to pick up his stuff. 

What is that all about anyway?  He just wants to spy on me?

Some may just be curiosity, but with BPD so much boils down to control.  You changed the locks (setting a boundary) and he can no longer just waltz in and do what he wants. 

I hope that you have a wonderful visit with your parents.    

[livednlearned]

Yes, he wants to spy on you! He wants to control you and know everything he can so he can manipulate and bully you. The kind of stuff my ex sent me after we divorced -- hoowheee. He wanted to know the layout and floorplan of my apartment, where the wifi routers were located, where the bedrooms were located, etc... . Creepy creepy creepy.

[GaGrl]

Yes, he wants to spy on you! He wants to control you and know everything he can so he can manipulate and bully you. The kind of stuff my ex sent me after we divorced -- hoowheee. He wanted to know the layout and floorplan of my apartment, where the wifi routers were located, where the bedrooms were located, etc... . Creepy creepy creepy.

That is so scary!  It's just weird.  I have an image of him hiding in the bushes outside the room where the wifi router is located, hacking in to your email.

[nowheretogo]

So, to try to catch you all up quickly, I did reply back to him that the schedule would be the same for the rest of the week (I will get her from him at 6:15 through Fri).

He replied with a string of text messages that read as the following:

OK, nwtg.  Sorry that won't work for me.  I am  her father so I guess we will wing it

Plz pick her up at 7 because I just got done working on truck

Since we are not in agreement I say we temporaly come up with something until the court desides I think she spend two days with you then two nights or three and every other weekend.  Starting this weekend with me... .   only u will get her this time due to ur parents

I replied:

I will pick her up at seven but in the futre I would like it to be earlier.  It is in D2's best interest to have a consistent routine and I value having an appropriate bedtime for a 2 year old.

On to the rest from him:

Her what ntwg?  half the time she doesn't go to bed till 930 what important for her to pend time with her dad... . why r u making this more difficult then it has to be

How about I do what ur doing how wouldd u feel... .   routine lmao

OK seems you r not willing to compramise... .   its one thing u not want to be with me but its in the best interest that D2 spend equal time with the parents

U lie so bad ur teeth are going to fall out... .  

I think u forget I lived there

Oh and routine... . is it routine to dress her in the same dirty clothes two days in a row... .   or is it that she controls u or is it that u let her do whatever she wants to secure that line that u trying so hard to do.

Those are ver batim.  I did not reply again.  He seems to be saying that I'm lying about routines, but I have always believed that, and have always tried to put them into place, with him always being the obstruction, including yesterday (changed pickup time to 7 pm and so S7 and I had to change our plans and be uncomfortable).

I am not giving in.  I am going to pick her up today at 6:15 no matter what he says.  I want L to send another letter and to call and talk to his L, because this is crazy.  #1, I want the continuous texting to stop!  #2, I'm not changing my mind about what is best for D2.  She is 2, and needs consistency.  She should sleep in the same familiar bed on "school nights" (ex will argue she is not in school), and not be bouncing back and forth, especially in the midst of all this new transition.

I don't know what's going to happen, if his L will talk some sense into him, or what, but I am not budging.

[GaGrl]

I absolutely agree that a reasonable and consistent bedtime (and routine leading up to bedtime) is critical afford children. Even if your stbx won't provide that on hiß time, you can do so on your time and your D will thrive on it.

The texting isn't good. It needs to shift to email - much less disruptive.

Stay focused on your desired goal. You know he's manipulating you for financial benefits.

[livednlearned]

I swear, there must be a BPD manual. The tone is so familiar, and the twisting, weird logic.

Being consistent is going to be your best friend. Focus on what is best for D2 -- courts agree that consistency matters. The more he destabilizes the routine and tries to loosely coordinate a schedule (through text, no less), the worse he is going to look. If you can, over and over and over and over again say the same thing to him: I do not want to work this out through text. Until we have an order from the court, this is a matter that should be settled through email. D2 needs a stable routine, a stable bedtime, and as much consistency in her schedule as we can give her.

Or something like that.

Are you saving the text messages? If not, be a good idea to start that now. He's going to give you a lot of material.

[GaGrl]

Amen sister!

Consistency!

And authenthic love.

[nowheretogo]

So L is writing a letter that  I just reviewed, stating the text messaging is harrassing, and if not stopped I will take further action.  The letter also reiterates the schedule of every other weekend and after daycare (for ex) from 4-6:15 when I come to pick her up.  Also specifically states gp visit schedule (Fri-next Wed) and that the already mentioned schedule will resume next Wed. afternoon. Talks about not having interactions at exchanges and changing to a neutral location if there are problems.  It asks him to provide of list of items he wants from my house and to provide that to his attorney.  Lastly, it advises that I will no longer be paying for his cell phone or vehicle insurances after the next week.

No sooner than I read over the draft, did I get a text from ex:  "I will be keeping D2 tonight... .   I also sent you an email ref other days"

The email reads as follows:

Since you refuse to communicate and work out a schedule that is fair to D2 and both parents.

         I will be keeping D2 tonight 4/11/2012. I will also keep her tomorrow night Friday 4/12/2013. You can pick her up on Sat Morning at 9am so that she may visit with the Grandparents and S7 on Sat and Sun... . I would like to have her Tuesday and Weds April 16th and 17th since I will be working that weekend.Or Weds and Thursday. Since you do not have S7 on Weds. However, I thought since S7 goes with his dad that weekend you would want him to see her on Thursday. Please let me know which days would work for you.

-------

NONE! NONE! NONE! 

Ugh, I just feel sick again.

So now, he will probably get letter from L sometime while I am on the way to pick up D2, and I am just worried sick about everything again.

[ForeverDad]

Just mentioning for backgound information, though probably you're already aware.  Many courts do favor more frequent visits with children under 3 years old than the 'standard' alternate weekends and an evening or overnight in between.  Since D2 is almost D3, don't let him mire you in the age 2 claims.  This is the time for him to push and posture to jostle for his preferred scenario/outcome, so of course that's what he's doing.

[nowheretogo]

God, I can't stand him!

He played hide and seek last night.  I went to pick her up at 6:15, just like I have always said I would do, just like the correspondence from my attorney says.  Texted him that I was there.  His truck was there, the doors were locked and the shades and curtains drawn.  They either weren't there or he was silencing her.  The tv was on loud and I could never hear her. I knocked on the door and window, and tried for about 20 min.  While I was there I got the following string of texts:

I sent u an email she is spending the night

We have a play date arranged with her

I also sent u a text

If u continue to harras me I am going to call the cops

I am her dad she has every right to be with me just as she does with u... . you have had her Mon tues and weds. night

I have requsted that we come up with a fair agreement until court u continue to try and keep me from her.  I have been in her life since day one and I took care of her the majority of the time.  I do not come to ur house and disrupt your time

Then, when I called to say goodnight at 849 pm,

D2 is sleeping and so was I

Ex, u are forcing my hand... .   I wanted to remain friends however if u come to my house besides on sat morning to pick up D2 I will call the police.  I do not come over to your house and I am not trying to keep her from you... .   again D2 has structure here she is in bed sleeping.  Her bed time is at 830 I guess its anytime when she iw with u.  I do follow a structer environment here she had supper snack we played and then went to bed.  Just as she should

------------------

He doesn't come over?  He only stopped since I've changed the locks and what about the whole episode last WEd?  That was during my time with D2! 

And structure?  First of all, he's lying.   And what about he doesn't take her to daycare half of the time because "she doesn't want to go", or much later than her usual routine with me, and what happened to his argument from before the divorce that it doesn't matter when she goes to bed, because she doesn't have to school?

[livednlearned]

That is actually a helpful exchange to share with the courts -- it makes him look really bad.

Napping at 6:15pm is not believable in the context of those texts. He is not believable. Calling the cops when you are following through on an agreement? I don't think so. Also, cops can't enforce civil matters, and this is a civil matter. All they can do is a well-child check. You might want to call them in advance and tell them what's happening. "I am picking my daughter up at the scheduled time and my ex is threatening to call the cops. I would like you to come and make sure everyone is safe while I pick up my daughter."

Or something like that.

I know it's hard to see right now, but he is handing his head to you on a platter. People said the same thing to me when my ex acted like this, and I was like you -- furious, exasperated, flooded by feelings in the moment. It's hard to feel calm when our babies are in the middle  :'(

So I know it's hard to see, but you are doing great, and he is being totally predictable, and eventually his crazy is going to show up in court and blow up in his face. This exchange is a sign of someone who is in it to win it, not to do what's best for D2. He is acting like he's arguing over a doll and that makes the courts pissed.

[nowheretogo]

lnl, not sure where you got the 6:15 naptime out of the messages... .   but that's ok... .   he still sounds crazy, right?

I am waiting to hear from my L who will have hopefully talked to exs L, to maybe make the exchange for tonight ok.  Otherwise, I am sure he'll be playing hide and seek again.  I don't care if he calls the cops, my parents are going to be with me, and I'm bringing the letters from my L from 4/1 and from today, both stating the same schedule, which has been the same one I have consistently stuck to.  I will be pointing out the fact that he is so cooperative that he called you, the police, to keep my parents from seeing their granddaughter (that they only see 1-2 x a year and drove 7 hours today to be with)!  His guise will be that he "told me" that he is keeping her again tonight, and therefore since I am at his residence I am harrassing him... .  

[livednlearned]

lnl, not sure where you got the 6:15 naptime out of the messages... .   but that's ok... .   he still sounds crazy, right?

I am waiting to hear from my L who will have hopefully talked to exs L, to maybe make the exchange for tonight ok.  Otherwise, I am sure he'll be playing hide and seek again.  I don't care if he calls the cops, my parents are going to be with me, and I'm bringing the letters from my L from 4/1 and from today, both stating the same schedule, which has been the same one I have consistently stuck to.  I will be pointing out the fact that he is so cooperative that he called you, the police, to keep my parents from seeing their granddaughter (that they only see 1-2 x a year and drove 7 hours today to be with)!  His guise will be that he "told me" that he is keeping her again tonight, and therefore since I am at his residence I am harrassing him... .  

Oh, haha. I'm dyslexic, so me and numbers have a shaky relationship 

But yes. He is still coming across as difficult, like he's arguing over a doll instead of following the proposed schedule and keeping things consistent for D2. He's also telling you exactly what he plans to say about you when he appears in court. So document every way in which he is wrong. If he says you are not structured, then demonstrate, document, show, prove the ways in which you are.

[nowheretogo]

Oh, haha... .   that's funny.  You should join DAM (Mothers against dyslexia)

I hope you are right about the feeding his head to me on a platter, because that is definitely where I want it 

He is so structured... .   ... .   I'll bet she didn't go to daycare today... .   and what about changing the 6:15 to 7 pm at the last minute the past few days... .  

omg... .   I have never felt like this about anyone before

[nowheretogo]

Guess what, I was right.  MR. "I do follow a structer environment here" kept her out of daycare today.  Also Mr. "I'm not trying to keep her from seeing you."

God help me.

[catnap]

He's also telling you exactly what he plans to say about you when he appears in court. So document every way in which he is wrong. If he says you are not structured, then demonstrate, document, show, prove the ways in which you are.

If possible, I would go and get a copy of the log(s) for D2's daycare. 

I know of several instances you mentioned in your posts of his obstruction of bedtime routine for D2. 

Forcibly snatching your daughter out of her car seat in front of the neighbors.

With good documentation/incidents, your can lock him into a lie(s) on the witness stand and then prove he did lie.  I can't remember if it was Matt or Forever Dad that shared that when my son was involved in his custody case, but it does work.  Judges tend to look at  anything else they say with skepticism.   

[GaGrl]

What Matt recommends is a deposition prior to any trial.  Many, many questions are asked at the deposition, and answers are under oath.  Your lawyer then has the ability to go into depth regarding those answers -- "Mr. X, in your deposition of mm/dd/yyyy you said... .   <whatever>; however, I have here attendance records from D's school indicating that she was not delivered to school on the following dates when she was in your care.  How do you explain that?"

etc. etc. etc.

Matt had something like 40 items on which she had perjured herself.

[nowheretogo]

Yes, I am definitely going to try to obtain attendance logs from the daycare and show how she was out on multiple occasions when in his care, or only there from late morning hrs... .   often brings her in at 11 am, etc, when usu. I bring her in by 7 or 7:30.

Where is Matt?  Can any of you, maybe FD, speak to me some more about depositions? 

I know when the detective was going to hold a deposition with ex when he was trying to get the PI thing going, ex quickly withdrew his whole application and dropped that whole thing like a hotcake!  Seemed he was worried about being questioned about his old probation officer job and events around losing it.

[livednlearned]

Yes, I am definitely going to try to obtain attendance logs from the daycare and show how she was out on multiple occasions when in his care, or only there from late morning hrs... .   often brings her in at 11 am, etc, when usu. I bring her in by 7 or 7:30.

Where is Matt?  Can any of you, maybe FD, speak to me some more about depositions? 

I know when the detective was going to hold a deposition with ex when he was trying to get the PI thing going, ex quickly withdrew his whole application and dropped that whole thing like a hotcake!  Seemed he was worried about being questioned about his old probation officer job and events around losing it.

I was deposed, so was N/BPDx.

It's a powerful tool for those of us who have disordered spouses. The emotional reasoning thing really shows up as lying in a deposition. My ex did a swan dive into a shark tank. It was awful preparing for it -- your job in a deposition is to focus on answering ONLY the question being asked. Many people tend to explain more than what they need to answer. So that kinda freaked me out and I was a mess going into the deposition. But being a good non, I followed the rules carefully. My L said she has never had such a good client. She even had to confer with me mid-deposition (pee break) and tell me to let me foot off the brakes a bit.

Anyway, it's a good tool because our exes tend to make up facts to fit the feelings, and that essentially puts them at risk of perjuring themselves. My ex is an attorney. A trial attorney. He boasted that he had done more depositions that he could count. And then he imploded right in front of us.

After the deposition, a transcriber will send you copies of the deposition. They count every single use of every single word and index the whole thing. It's weird. But it allowed me to see that I used the word "confusing" and "confused" a lot. And I mean a lot. By accident, N/BPDx's L tipped me off that I was a "confused" person, so I looked at the deposition and saw that I used that word to describe N/BPDx's behavior. It backfired on me. (Thanks to Matt for helping me figure out what was going on). Once I had an idea how N/BPDx's L was going to use the deposition, I could prepare.

Fortunately, N/BPDx's L withdrew from the case, and N/BPDx had a psychotic episode that worried everyone. Oh, and he threatened the PC. So the deposition lost some of its importance. Still, it's a powerful tool if you don't have a lot of evidence and need to show who has their head on straight.

[catnap]

Thanks Gagirl for adding that clarification.  Our attorney had to use in court as there we no depositions taken in my son's case.

[Matt]

Here's how it worked in my case, and I think it's an approach that could be used in many cases, where the facts are important, or where accusations are being made... .  

My attorney filed a motion to depose my wife, and her attorney responded by filing a similar motion.  They worked out a practical schedule, and we we both supposed to bring all the financial stuff the other side had requested.  I showed up with several thick binders of information - one copy for the other side, one for my attorney, and one for the court.

My wife was deposed first.  At my attorney's request, I had prepared several pages of questions - all the questions on each topic together on one page, so each page was one topic, like ":)omestic violence accusations", "Accusations of infidelity", etc.  The idea is to go fairly deeply into each topic, and make the other party either admit things she doesn't want to admit, or lie under oath.

As my attorney asked the questions, sitting beside her, I signaled her when my wife was lying.  I had a big notepad, and when she lied, I would write a big * on the page, and sometimes add a few words to suggest a way my attorney could handle it, like

   * Police report said no bruises

Then my attorney could ask, "Mrs. Matt, you just said that Mr. Matt kicked you, is that right?  Did the police report indicate that you had any bruises?  Did the police officers ask if you had any bruises?  Did they ask to see the place where you say Mr. Matt kicked you?" etc.  Get as much detail as possible, so it becomes very clear that a tale is being spun, and any key piece of information, get the other party to say it several times, so it's clear she is claiming something that isn't true - not just a single mis-statement, but an elaborate and deliberate lie.

This went on for four hours, and yes, when we later looked through the transcript, I could identify more than 40 specific statements which were objectively false.  The question then was, which of those to concentrate on, and find the evidence which would prove they were false, and prove that they were deliberate lies.  In some cases, it would be hard to prove what really happened, and in other cases, it would be hard to prove that my wife knew what she was saying was false.  But 10 or 15 of her statements we could easily prove were false and she could not have believed them to be true - she definitely knew she was lying.

The reason that's important is that if we went to trial, it would have happened several weeks later, so we had that time to gather the information and submit it to the court.  In my state, there is no surprise evidence - everything has to be submitted in advance, and the other side gets a copy.  So as we submitted each piece of evidence to the court, my wife's attorney could see that he client had lied, and that if she was put on the stand at trial, we would prove that she had lied under oath, and she was be forced to either admit, "What I said when I was deposed was false", or repeat the lies, and be proven to be lying under oath again at trial.  No way she could avoid being proved to have lied under oath - a crime.

And... .   an attorney is ethically obligated to take whatever steps she can to prevent her client from being in criminal jeopardy.  It would be a serious breach of ethics for my wife's lawyer to go to trial, knowing that her client would be proved to have committed a crime (lying under oath).  So she had to advise my wife to settle, even if she didn't get everything she wanted.  Which is what ultimately happened... .  

Anyway, the part where I was deposed was pretty easy.  My lawyer had told me, "Tell the truth, or if you don't remember say 'I don't remember', and above all keep it short.  If 'Yes' or 'No' will do, just say that and stop."  That's what I did, and they were done with me in two hours - didn't take the four available to them because there was nothing more to ask.

If the truth is on your side, depositions bring the truth into the spotlight sooner, and give you two opportunities to put the other party under oath - once in depositions, and again at trial - so you have the time in between to gather evidence about key issues.  If the other party isn't telling the truth, this puts you in a very strong position to get a good settlement, because the opposing attorney will want to settle, so her client doesn't have to go on the stand again, once you have shown that the other party is not a good witness and you are.

   

[GaGrl]

So I'm thinking that a deposition would allow a very deep questioning around attempts (or lack of) to find employment, financial contribution to the household (or lack thereof), structure, etc. Certainly the truth about his current "job" wouldst come out.

But it sounds as if he doesn't want anything about his past employment issues brought up. That in itself could be a point for leverage.

[nowheretogo]

Thank you all so much for the details and explanations. I am very upset right now kama had a rough night tonight calling the police again. ex is a lousy father, and alcoholic, and has major issues with anger and he has our daughter.  he scared her again tonight and then wouldn't give her to me. I went to pick her up and he pushed me away from the door and slammed the door in my face and said he was calling the cops. I called the cops for since he pushed me. I am NOT giving all the details now because I'm too exhausted. Let it suffice to say that he doesn't care what is in her best interest, but only what is going to be best for him in the long run.  I am definitely going to speak to my attorney tomorrow and I will ask about this deposition thing. it may be very useful as you say.

[GaGrl]

More and more, your ex is demonstrating physical reactions to the lack of an agreement. This is going on too long. Your L needs to respond decisively in your behalf.

[nowheretogo]

police didn't seem to care that he pushed me, I guess because I wasn't hurt.  that is the second time he's pushed me in front of D2 this month.I think that we should at least document the violence in a  stern letter from my attorney.  and not allow for changes at the private residences any longer. I think we should say that I will b waiting for him at this neutral site of exchange tomorrow at 6:15 p.m., not changing the schedule and not giving in to his demand to keep her until Saturday. I have always stuck to the same schedule that I proposed from the beginning: every other weekend and he can pick her up after daycare until I get her from work at 615. again he wants to push that he must have her on the weekends when I have my sonand that he must have 50/50 as far as overnight.

[livednlearned]

police didn't seem to care that he pushed me, I guess because I wasn't hurt.  that is the second time he's pushed me in front of D2 this month.I think that we should at least document the violence in a  stern letter from my attorney.  and not allow for changes at the private residences any longer. I think we should say that I will b waiting for him at this neutral site of exchange tomorrow at 6:15 p.m., not changing the schedule and not giving in to his demand to keep her until Saturday. I have always stuck to the same schedule that I proposed from the beginning: every other weekend and he can pick her up after daycare until I get her from work at 615. again he wants to push that he must have her on the weekends when I have my sonand that he must have 50/50 as far as overnight.

What are your thoughts about filing a protective or restraining order?

[GaGrl]

police didn't seem to care that he pushed me, I guess because I wasn't hurt.  that is the second time he's pushed me in front of D2 this month.I think that we should at least document the violence in a  stern letter from my attorney.  and not allow for changes at the private residences any longer. I think we should say that I will b waiting for him at this neutral site of exchange tomorrow at 6:15 p.m., not changing the schedule and not giving in to his demand to keep her until Saturday. I have always stuck to the same schedule that I proposed from the beginning: every other weekend and he can pick her up after daycare until I get her from work at 615. again he wants to push that he must have her on the weekends when I have my sonand that he must have 50/50 as far as overnight.

The issue is that you have made a proposal that he has not accepted, and nothing has been ordered by the court.  This needs to change, and it needs to change quickly.  He is escalating the bad behavior.

Why can't your lawyer ask for an emegency hearing due to the pushing/physical contact?  At worst, perhaps an order will come out of it as to temp visitation hours and place of exchange.

You are correct -- the exchange point needs to be changed to a neutral location.  Many people exchange at a police station.

Of couse, if he refuses to take your D to the exchange location because he feels he should have her overnight, you'll find yourself waiting there for several hours.

[livednlearned]

police didn't seem to care that he pushed me, I guess because I wasn't hurt. 

What do you mean that they didn't seem to care?

[nowheretogo]

I guess because I wasn't physically injured.  All they said was that "he shouldn't have done that" and "we'll say something to him about it."

Got an email from ex last night telling me how I am no longer allowed to be in or about his apartment, causing disturbances and quoting some criminal code, and saying how he will be forced to call the police if I do.

So I wrote the following email reply and sent it this morning:

This is a response to your email message dated April 17, 2013.  

For the record, knocking on your door is not causing a disturbance.  Yelling, pushing, and slamming doors is.  You scared D2 when you did those things again, and then kept her from me when she was crying in fear, "No!  No!  Mommy!  Mommy!" You did the same thing at my home on April 3rd when you were there unwelcomed when I came home from work that day after you had already moved out.  You were pushing me,  yelling at me, calling me a f******* b**** and other names and keeping D2 physically away from me while she was crying and screaming and asking for me.  Our daughter even verbalized while you could hear her in the midst of all that, that ":)addy pushed you.  :)addy is mean, and Daddy is fighting" while she continually yelled ":)addy, STOP!".  You caused such a disturbance, that two neighbors came to see what was going on.

From now on, because of your acts of violence, custody exchanges will occur at a neutral location.  The police suggested their police station on X Street, and I think that is the best idea.

To this date, my attorney and I have proposed only one schedule with a slight alteration around D2's grandparents' visitation.  That schedule is stated in the letter from my attorney on April 1st and restated in a second letter dated April 12th.  The schedule is every other weekend with your weekend beginning Fri, April 5th until Sunday, April 7th at 6:15 pm.  In addition, while you are temporarily working part time, you may pick her up from daycare Monday through Friday at 4 pm until I get her after work at 6:15 pm.  It is in D2's best interest to keep this routine and consistent schedule, spending the evenings during the week in the same stable and familiar place.  Again, because of your anger and overuse of alcohol, I am concerned about having her spend overnights at your home, when her safety is in question.  I will be waiting at 6:15 tonight at the police station in order to exchange custody of D2 as per the schedule.  If you are not there, it will be documented.

[nowheretogo]

I don't know if he read my email yet or not, but I just got a text:

I have D2.  You really scared her by doing what you did last night.  we must think of D2 and set aside our differences.  I have allowed your time with her to be peaceful and I have also been fair. You are not permitted in or about apartment.  You can come to the side walk near the road only when u r to pick her up.  I also have not got all my things out I want my stuff by weds of next week.  You can pick D2 up at 10 am sat. 

(this is basically a reiteration of the email he sent me last night)

L is supposed to call me this afternoon on his way back from court... .   I am so fed up with this bs!  Yeah, right, I scared her.  It was his emotional reaction that scared her, she was excited that I was there until he reacted, and then she was scared!  He can try to make me look like the bad guy, but I'm not.  And he hasn't allowed my time to be peaceful... .   constant texting and other bs like the incident on Wed., April 3rd, mentioned in my email to him on my previous post.

How do I maintain my sanity while going through all of this hell?

[Matt]

How do I maintain my sanity while going through all of this hell?

That's a really important question!

I would suggest you look to three sources of support... .  

First is "peers" - others who have been through similar stuff and can understand - us here and anyone else you know who gets it.

Second is family and close friends who may not understand all this stuff, but care about you and will support you.

Third is professional support.  I found a good counselor and saw him often when I was going through the worst stuff, and it helped a lot.

[nowheretogo]

Well, I guess that is what I am doing.  It's just so weird to see and know the craziness, but to have to deal with others who don't know it in their limited contact with the case (ie, the police last night).

[Matt]

Well, I guess that is what I am doing.  It's just so weird to see and know the craziness, but to have to deal with others who don't know it in their limited contact with the case (ie, the police last night).

Yes - it's tempting to try to get everyone to see how crazy the other person is, but that doesn't work.

What works a little better is to show how not-crazy you are.  Make sure you act right 100% of the time, because if you lose your grip for a second, that's what everyone will remember, and they'll see it as two crazy people fighting.

[nowheretogo]

Yes, I am keeping my cool.  You can be danged sure I won't be back over near his apt. again, either.  I'm not falling for that trap! 

[GaGrl]

I am concerned that, once he gets your email and a subsequent communication from your L, that your ex may not exchange your D tonight.  Is that a possibility?  What is your intent should that happen?

[nowheretogo]

He wasn't going to exchange her anyway.  He told the police (and me multiple times now) that he would keep her until Sat.  There is nothing I can do other than stick to my schedule, and try my best to do what is best for D2.  So I will show up at the police station at 6:15 and wait.  When he doesn't come, all I can do is document his continued lack of cooperation and present the information at the custody hearings.  Unfortunately, he does not truly have D2s best interest in mind.  If he did, he wouldn't push  me, yell at me, etc. in front of her all of the time, and then keep her when she clearly wants her mommy.

[livednlearned]

I really feel for you. This is an awful gray area to be in with someone this disordered, and has to be rip your heart out that D2 is caught in the middle.

Big   to you.

If you have a smart phone, maybe email him from the station (when he doesn't show up) to document that he is not there.

[nowheretogo]

Yes, it is gut-wrenching, knowing that I am truly trying to do what is best for D2, and he truly is not, and then no one can really do anything to help me.

I will text him when I show at 6:15 as I have done each time as means of documentation.

Thanks for the hug... .   I wish we could all meet and have coffee.

I often wish I could sit and talk with one or two of you, rather than anxiously await your blog replies... .   but this is much better than nothing! 

Thank you so much for following my story and continuing to support me!

[Matt]

I often wish I could sit and talk with one or two of you, rather than anxiously await your blog replies... .   but this is much better than nothing!

I have that feeling too, and some members do use personal messages, or even connect by phone.

But what I've learned from the staff and long-time members here is that, as awkward and slow as it can be, the best way to use this community is to post your stuff on a thread, like you're doing here.  You get different inputs that way - not just one or two points of view - and that can be incredibly helpful - somebody out of the blue gives you something very valuable that you wouldn't have gotten if you were talking in a more private way.

So... .   if you can find moral support and hugs from real-life people who know you and care about you, and balance that with what you get from your friends here, that will be best.

(But if I could get us all together for a few hours every weekend, I'd do that in a minute!)

Matt

[ForeverDad]

again he wants to push that he must have her on the weekends when I have my son and that he must have 50/50 as far as overnight.

This of course is ridiculous.  Court will almost surely ignore his claim for opposite weekends.  However, ponder this.  By his attempting this without solid reasons for doing so, he is seeking to reduce the time the children spend together.  In xPD land, isolation is a known weapon of choice.  Another possiblity is that he's trying to obstuct you as much as he can... .   Whichever it is, or likely both, you need to stand firm and most likely the court will support your reasonable choices and decisions.

Also, have you requested that his frequent late afternoon pickups end or greatly reduced?  He's moved out now, so it's l=not like he's doing this before you come home to her.  It's only for a couple hours and it's his way to stay in contact with you and have frequent exchanges.  In xPD land, the fewer the exchanges, the better.

Don't forget to always add that you don't want those recently demanded 1-2 hour afternoon visits to hinder his job searches or job prospects.

[nowheretogo]

I have not tried to change the afternoon pickups yet... .   but will soon. 

I think I see an opening.  Along with our upcoming custody conciliation scheduled for May 8th, my FT position has been approved to change to an 80% position starting May 5th.  So I will be able to include that I am now available to pick her up from daycare on a regular basis (I will be working 5 days of slightly shorter hours, and she will not be in danger of being at daycare for 10 hrs).  And also, I want him to have the full opportunity for job searches/prospects as you mentioned, FD

What do you all think about me hiring a FT private babysitter to watch her in my home?  Ex has always said that he doesn't want her in daycare.  My thinking is a sitter that can't be shared.  ie, right now, I pay for daycare, and he takes her there as a babysitter.  Although he doesn't take her there when he feels like I might try to come and get her, like today.  This way, she would stay in the house, and he can't come into the house to get her.  I don't know... .   I'm only just thinking about this, and don't have any real clear thoughts on that, but looking for other thoughts or opinions.

I am certain that most of his custody crap is to 1. get child support and 2. hurt me.  Keep the kids separate, allow me less time with D2, don't allow me any free time from the kids, etc. 

[ForeverDad]

You: You pushed me.

Him: No, I didn't.

You: D saw you push me.

Him: No, she didn't

Police: We won't do anything but we will/might talk to him.

I may have it wrong, but I think this is 'hearsay' where two or more people claim different events and the officials disclaim any ability to discern which one is telling the truth, or possibly neither.  Often it is all dismissed or ignored.  Yes, that can happen even with documentation, but it's more likely to happen without documentation.

It's been mentioned before, is there anything stopping you from having a recorder running during exchanges?

If you don't know how, just visit a Radio Shack, Best Buy, Microcenter, Amazon, etc.  They all sell a variety of devices that can record discreetly and without fanfare or beeps.  If you have a smart phone, it might even be able to record, just read the manual, get an online manual, help from others or upgrade to a more recording-friendly phone.  It's your decision, action or inaction?

If you have legal concerns about whether you're allowed to record, rest assured that very few here have had serious repercussions from recording.  At most they've been told not to record.  A very few had judges get peeved at them and make an order not to record.  So your risks for recording are low.  (And if nothing significant ever happens then you can remain silent, never use them and ex would never know.)  But your risks (affecting your parenting outcome) for not recording are high.  How so?  Already there have been a couple incidents that, if documented, would have made him look worse than he would otherwise.  Now, during the start of separation and the initial jostling for preference in the first temp order, the conflict is probably higher than at any other time.

[GaGrl]

As to the babysitter, you can make a case that at D's age, the socialization with other children is important.  You might do better staying with the daycare/nursery school situation until your ex understands what he can and can't do.  He might show up at your house and try to intimidate the babysitter -- not good.  Daycare centers are better equipped to handle parent conflicts -- you'll give them the eventual court order, and they will go by what it says.

On the alternating weekends, one of the primary considerations is the time the siblings can spend together with you in recreational activities.  Essentially, he is saying to you that you will NEVER be able to take the children to a weekend activity like Six Flags, Sea World, the zoo, a movie... .   whatever... .   together.  That's not good for the siblings.

Of course, he's probably well aware that always having a child on the weekend could restrict your own social life.  That's how they think.

I have a recorder that I use for work purposes when I need a quick interview with a subject matter expert (I manage a lot of instructional design projects) -- it just hangs on a key chain, very discreet.

[Matt]

I may have it wrong, but I think this is 'hearsay' where two or more people claim different events and the officials disclaim any ability to discern which one is telling the truth, or possibly neither.  Often it is all dismissed or ignored.  Yes, that can happen even with documentation, but it's more likely to happen without documentation.

This isn't how it works where I live, and in many other states.

(And by the way, I'm not advocating how things should be, just telling you how it is.)

Where I live, when a woman calls 911 and reports an incident of domestic violence - and the definition of ":)V" is very, very broad - the police are required to go there and arrest the man - no matter what they find.

If they find the woman passed out drunk, and the man taking care of the kids;  if they catch the woman telling obvious lies;  or if it's "he-said, she-said" and there is no evidence at all - doesn't matter.  The law requires the police to - as they explained it to me while cuffing me - "Bring you in, charge you, hold you, and let the judge decide in the morning."

In my case, the officers did a great job gathering evidence, and their report, issued a few weeks later, proved my wife was lying.  But on that night, since she had called 911 and stated that I had assaulted her, they had no choice, under my state's laws and about 20 other states too, but to arrest me and charge me.

Some states have milder laws - this is all fallout from politics of course - but I think you will probably find that the laws all over the US heavily favor a woman who makes an accusation of DV against a man.

Of course I'm not saying I agree with all this, or that you should abuse the system to hurt the other party.  But if you are telling the truth, and you were the victim of DV, I think you will find that the laws are very heavily on your side.

[livednlearned]

nowheretogo,

I don't know if this is helpful to you or not, but your ex seems as disordered as mine, minus the well-paying job that my ex has. N/BPDx is very high functioning, but I've been stunned to see how his behavior plays out in front of third-party professionals, including lawyers, judges, and therapists. The same thing is going to happen to your ex. You're going to have to walk through hell to get there, because it is a mental illness we're talking about after all, but you will get there. Just keep letting your strength fill up that tank inside you, and focus on what you're doing well. This is an extraordinarily hard thing to go through, and you're doing really well. Be proud that you got this far.

I'm just saying that because I was swimming in anxiety when I was in your position in my divorce and was so worried that N/BPDx was going to waltz away with everything he asked for, and S11 would fall through a big gaping crack. I think I ate four crackers in a six month period because I was so worried sick. N/BPDx is a trial lawyer, and I was so worried that his knowledge of how things work would be the end of me.

There are good judges out there, and you have a lot going in your favor, even though it probably seems like your ex is going to be able to get with something. He isn't. He is going to make it hard for you every step of the way, but you are going to come out ok.

[nowheretogo]

Everything in my letter to ex is a fact.  I am a very poor liar.  The trouble is, it is he said/she said, and to a random outsider, I guess either of us could be lying.  Ld doesn't think I have much of a chance for a pfa in this state without actually being hurt.  Ex sent me anther long email this afternoon in which he states things like I scared her yesterday, I stood outside his door and yelled her name, and tried to push open the door when he wa closing it... .   basically all lies or at least twisted truth.  Ie I did call her name, one time, but it was in a nice sweet voice and she answered What Momm and was obviously excited that I was t, here. He claims he was on the phone and that person heard everything.  he was ok the phone, but there was nothing to hear from my end other then hey D2, and I am here to get her.  No other words came out of my mouth.  They had to have heard her scared and crying no!  Mommy!  but theywould probably lie and say what ex told them to. 

the letter said a whole lot more basically he stated the schedule that he wants to have cleaning what night is going to have her and not agreeing to have

exchanges at the police station but rather at a place that he chose. he keeps saying that the weekends that I have S7 are bad for him claiming that her growm siblings won't be able to see her and that seeing her parents equally is the best thing for her. no really it's the best thing for him because he just wants to get child support money out of me.

I can't even go on with this post because I am so upset.  thank you for your last post L&L it made me feel little better.

[ForeverDad]

I and so many others here can understand your distress.  Thus far the police have been of minimal help and you have yet to know what the court will do, whether act with insight or piddle around longer.  That in-between world is distressing.  It won't be long and you'll have a better idea where you stand with the court.  The reason your lawyer isn't as distressed as you is two-fold: (1) your lawyer has seen how many other cases have eventually gotten resolved over time despite difficulties and (2) it's not lawyer's own family life being challenged.

So I wrote the following email reply... .     In addition, while you are temporarily working part time, you may pick her up from daycare Monday through Friday at 4 pm until I get her after work at 6:15 pm.

I think this is still worded incorrectly.  What's temporary, his part time work?  You shouldn't base his pickups on him temporarily working part time" - in that case he will make sure "temporarily" is forevermore.   You already know he has no interest in doing anything than the bare minimum to get by (and leech off people).  Rather, what's described as temporary (and ended with the move-out) are his frequent pickups on an almost daily basis which now cause almost-daily exchanges between two parents who no longer live together.  In future communications, phrase it maybe something like... .  

"Now that you have moved out, for you to pick up D2 frequently for a couple hours creates more problems than it solves.  Doing that then requires frequent exchanges and that is difficult and impractical to do over an extended period of time, especially with the difficulties already experienced at recent exchanges."

However, beware the trap of trying to reason with someone who stonewalls and refuses to reason or be reasonable.  You won't accomplish anything.  Think of it as informing him of your boundaries and rules.  Giving notice, not requesting or seeking agreement (after the first reasonable attempt).  You know he sees everything as his decision and anything you say is only a 'request' he can deny at whim.  Do state very briefly your position as though the court is looking over your shoulder and will eventually read it and leave it at that.  Don't argue back and forth, it won't accomplish anything.  Too much wordiness can also detract from the clarity of a simple messge.

[catnap]

You are doing all the right things.  I know it is the hardest thing you have had to endure so far, but you will prevail.  I wish we could all get together some time, but in our hearts we are there with you.   

[nowheretogo]

So the new update after the police incident on wed. Is I didn't get D2 until this morning when I was"allowed".  He only had her in daycarefor 2hrs on Thur and didn't bring her in yesterday.  He refused to let her come home with me wed and told the police to tell me I coils her her on sat.  He wrote me an email after I left wed. Saying how I'm nit allowed inor around his apt., starting some crime code.  Said I could get her sat.morning.  Refused to exchange at the police station, and said he would do it at Applebee s.  Then gave me a list of all the upcoming overnights that he wants, which is basically 50/50 and still with me having my kids on alternating weekends.  He has that power because he has no real job.  I lose because after the weekend, I have to bring her to daycare and go to work, and he can always pick her up there and then not give her back until he wants to.

I wrote a letter on fri. For my attorney to send stating I Do not at all believe in or want this type of schedule for D2, but that in light of recent violence and turmoil, I think it is in her best interest for me to agree to something temporarily, so that she doesn't have to go through something like that again.  I proposed a temporary schedule pending the cid custody conciliation on May 8 where I get her on the weekends that he has been pushingfor and that he can have her every tue and wed night.  I restated that I DO Not think this is best for her, but just temporary solution to try to restore some order for her.  I stated that she should be at daycare M-F from the 8 o'clock hour until 3:30 or 4 when he picks her up.  And also that exchanges shall be st the police station to ensure safety.

But then I chickened out and asked L not to send it yet.  While I do believe it would be better for D2 for now to avoid more drama, I am still worried that giving in now may jeopardize what is best for her long term.  L didn't think I have to worry, but I just don't know. 

I actually don't know if he sent it or not

What do you guys think?

[nowheretogo]

I guess I'm thinking if I don't send the letter I lose anyway because he can basically force the schedule he wants because I work full time.  His schedule is not as consistent.  He wants like two nights here then there then 3 here then there, etc.I guess if he would accept this temporary schedule it would still have some bouncing of D2, but is more consistent.  And it is  almost 50/50.

But then he is so disordered that he may not even agree to it.  And trust me would not attempt to bargain any further.

[GaGrl]

Don't send an interim plan. Stick to your first proposal. He will increasingly be seen as difficult while you are seen as steady.

[Matt]

Yeah, I'm with Gagrl, and I'm a little concerned that you not let him "rent space in your head".  Don't think too much about his issues or how he is thinking.  Think more about what is best for your daughter, and what is practical in terms of your own schedule.

Work out the schedule that you think is best - given all the practical matters - and then work on explaining each piece of it, in terms of why it is best for your daughter.  "I'm proposing such-and-such because it will work out best for D2 because blah blah blah... .   ".

Keep steady with that logic - here's what I think is best for D2 because... .   - and make sure your lawyer is solidly on board and saying the same thing.

If the other side puts forth a schedule you don't think is best, think clearly about why you don't think it's best, and explain that in calm terms.  "Mr. Togo has proposed X.  I don't think that's best for D2, because... .   ".  Speak your truth clearly and consistently and things are likely to go OK.

[livednlearned]

I agree with Gagrl and Matt too!

Temporary is not temporary, that seems to be the prevailing issue. And judges look at it like, You CONSENTED to this original plan, therefore it's better than anything a judge will come up with. And it will undermine your stance for years to come. This is why it's so important to have a goal and an objective and a strategy! Because you're going to be on this emotional rollercoaster until you figure out how to get off it.

And you'll probably discover, like many of us do, that even when you come up with a temporary plan that your ex agrees to, he will start challenging it or changing it. So you go through all this trouble to create something steady, and he changes it because his disorder dictates that he respond to how he's feeling in the moment. But the judge doesn't care about any of that. He just sees that you are two quarrelsome people who agreed to something and are now disagreeing, and he'll make you stick to the original temporary order because that's easier than trying to figure out who is the loony and who is the steady parent.

[nowheretogo]

I know what you are saying, but it leaves me with no control and him getting exactly his way until an order goes in, and that may be several months away.  It wouldn't be a temporary order, just a plan I temporarily agree to in order to make it smoother for D 2 for now.  But then they may want to make it a temporary order at the conciliation, and I would have to say no.  so maybe you are right, maybe I just keep stating what"my" schedule is, but just being unable to make him adhere to it until there is an order.  I just feel so bad for D2.

[nowheretogo]

The thing is, I feel like I always screw myself by the choices I make.  I hate my indecisiveness, but it is due to overthinking, and I don't know how to stop that either.

[Matt]

Some confusion here... .   I wasn't suggesting to wait for an order.  I think the sooner you can get temporary orders in place, the better.  My suggestion is to decide what situation you think will work best - not worry about how the other party is thinking, but focus on what will work for you and D2 - and put forward such a proposal to get temporary orders in place as soon as possible.  Your lawyer should know the process;  where I live, temporary orders can happen quickly, if you state that the current situation has risks and is a problem and you need a quick ruling.

If there is no hearing, and your motion is approved, great - perfect.  If the other side opposes it, and there is a hearing, work with your attorney to make your case very clearly and quickly - you won't have much time.  And make every argument in terms of the impact on the child, and without resorting to statements which may sound extreme (though they may be true!) about the other party.  If you make accusations, the court won't necessarily decide those, and it may distract from the key issue - what is best for D2 right now.

But if you stay calm and make your case clearly and with a constant focus on what will work best for D2, and practical considerations such as your working hours, it's likely to be approved even if the other side doesn't like it.

[GaGrl]

... .   temporarry orders can happen quickly, if you state that the current situation has risks and is a pro

blem and you need a quick ruling... .  

... .   But if you stay calm and make your case clearly and with a constant focus on what will work best for D2, and practical considerations such as your working hours, it's likely to be approved even if the other side doesn't like it... .  

These points are critical. It simply isn't acceptable that your custody order is so unsettled after the remainder of the divorce settlement is done. Your L needs to jump on this for you.

The more you concede to your ex without temp orders, the more you enable his ability to NOT work. It's a very unsettled schedule for D2. Bottom line... .   it's not working.

[Matt]

Your L needs to jump on this for you.

Let's talk about this aspect for just a second - your attorney.

If she is doing her job right, saying "my attorney" should make you feel a little better.  She should be a problem-solver.  Talking with her should make you feel like you're in good hands, and you have a strong, competent ally on your side.

If that isn't true, you have the wrong attorney, either because she is not competent, or because she isn't giving you the quality of attention and service you deserve.

Or... .   maybe you just need to speak up and ask for what you need.  Not all attorneys understand that this process is very upsetting, and part of their job is to make sure you know how the process works and that you are getting the help you need.  Some have no "bedside manner".  If you have a frank talk with her, and let her know pretty much what you've told us here - not just about the schedule, but also about how this process is affecting you emotionally - she may step up and give you the care you deserve - the solutions and also the communication so you will feel more confident about how this is likely to work out.

[ForeverDad]

I cannot imagine your soonest opportunity for a parenting schedule is "months away".  Something doesn't feel right.  Yes, until the court makes an order it's a sort of free-for-all, possession-wise.  I understand that.  But "months away"?  Why so long a wait?  I know when I filed for divorce, it took about 7 weeks for a hearing because the court's schedule was that full.  What about yours?

Just as you can't go to his door and force you to turn over your daughter, he can't do that either.  (Well, maybe he can but you don't have to hand her over - just like he refused.)  I am not a lawyer, of course.

I recall when I did have orders and ex refused to pick up our child on time - she wanted to create a record of incidents - she then came later to my home with the police.  They told her that even though it was her time, she didn't get him on time and then turned to me to give in in order to .  Yes, they pressured me to be reasonable.  Their #1 goal was to resolve the immediate incident and reduce the risk of the incident getting worse.  I was in the right (orders state if a parent fails to pick up the child, the parent waits until the next exchange time) but they still wanted the impasse ended.  That pressure was real.  I believe you're feeling pressure too, so work out with your lawyer what to do in various scenarios.  That happened a few times and at least once I said no and our child stayed with me that night.  They walked away and told her sorry.  So she just got our child the next day from daycare or school.

I'm just pondering... .   can you take a vacation (or stay-cation) now?  An extended leave, a work sabbatical until you get a parenting plan?  I don't want you to lose your job but what choices do you have?  Then you just keep her with you 100% of the time until the court orders a parenting schedule.  Until there is an order to the contrary I suspect that the law in your state is that he can pick her up from just about anytime and anywhere if the other parent isn't there.

He's out of the house, now, that's good.  But my impression was that courts are usually quick to make a parenting schedule.  How did him moving out happen and not a parenting time schedule?  Because it's wasn't the issue at that time?

Maybe L can go to court with a new petition stating that there have been incidents and the police have been involved and that the parents urgently need a parenting schedule sooner?

Disclaimer - I may be mixing your thread and circumstances with others, if so, please pardon any errors and use only what applies in your case.

[livednlearned]

Like FD said, it is unusual that you have to wait months to get a temporary order in place. In many places, those kinds of orders are fast-tracked, and that's even for cases that aren't high-conflict. Did your L tell you it would take months? Something seems off.

Courts tend to care about the kids more than anything else. That's been my experience -- and you can file emergency hearings. Perhaps it is an Order to Show Cause (in which you demonstrate why you need a judge to decide on the issues at hand quickly), but it will be something to flag to the court that the situation is not good for the minor child.

[nowheretogo]

L always says that there is no emergency, so nothing can be be done more quickly.  There was no custody decided with the divorce, because it was purely a divorce case.  However, I told L we need something in place as quickly as possible because I already knew where we both stood.  I filed for custody soon after the divorce.  The conciliation was scheduled for May 8th.  they only consider it an emergency if the child is in physical danger.  I don't know, but I have doubts that the pole even really tried to convince him it was best for her to go home with me on wed.  at the conciliation if we don't agree on a temporary no order will still be put in place. we won't agree unless one of us gives in and you're all telling me not to do that.Then they will order hearing which will probably be another month or two away. Then because we will need e valuations done that will add even more time. This is all according to my attorney.  Guess ibetter consult with another to make sure but I remember always feeling like this with my first custody case. That nobody really cares about the kids. not unless somebody was physically abusing them. Nobody cares about their emotional or mental well-being. is this just my state? Ooo

[nowheretogo]

basically what I'm trying to say is temporary orders cannot happen quickly in my state unless there is evidence of physical abuse. nobody cares about the emotional or mental well-being of the children. As long as they're not in physical danger no one cares. this is always felt so wrong to me and I don't know if it's only my state but this is how it is. for example they don't care of parents are alcoholics or anything like that as long as they're not physically abusing the children. I have about 20 days of vacation, but that would only buy me about one month out of what maybe many. I am truly overwhelmed right now.

[livednlearned]

nwtg,

Would you be ok sharing with people which state you're in? Or pm'ing one of the senior people here? It might help us figure out how we could better support you. It's up to you. Moderators are always cautioning to be mindful of anonymity.

Not sure -- every state is so different, and certainly there are people here who have entered twilight zones because of where they are, or the judges, lawyers, etc. that they've been assigned.

[Matt]

My first lawyer gave me a million reasons why nothing could be done.  Turns out he was full of baloney;  my second attorney told me that all the suggestions from my friends here were good ideas and could be pursued, and they turned out to be very helpful.

When an attorney takes your money and tells you that nothing can be done, it's probably time to talk to some other attorneys, and find out what options you have.

[ForeverDad]

Well, you'll be getting shorter work hours soon, he won't have an excuse to pick up D every afternoon.  But he still will be able to her up any time he wants in your absence.

If nothing else can be done then I'd tell your lawyer to make sure the case is not delayed.  Can the court date be scheduled now so that if/when the conciliation fails the court date is already scheduled?  I suspect he'll seek continuances to delay the case, keep the chaos and pressure on longer, and prolong your anxiety.  Your lawyer may not be able to avoid that but the point is to keep the case moving as fast as possible.

And I suggest you quietly record all exchanges/interactions for your own protection, physical and legal.

Following on Matt's comments, can you get another legal consultation with a different lawyer to find out whether a getting a parenting schedule ordered sooner is or isn't possible?

[nowheretogo]

I would be willing to share my state, but not if unadvised.  I wouldn't know who would be best to pm with that info.  L has said we must go through conciliation to have a hearing scheduled, and continues to state that it will be several months before there is an order.  I will seek some new opinions this week.  This just seems so wrong, impossible, and unbearable.  I hope I come across someone who thinks something can be done.

[Matt]

Some attorneys will give a free initial consultation, or maybe just charge for a half hour of their time.

If you have some good questions prepared you can probably learn a lot in half an hour.  Maybe talk to a number of attorneys, on the phone or briefly in person, and see what you can learn.

[ForeverDad]

I guess the problem here is that we've heard many members state how their cases started, progress and ended.  Some states have a waiting or "cooling off" period before you can file for divorce.  Most, but not all, have No Fault divorces, at least to a certain extent.  Each state has slightly different policies on spousal support vs length of marriage.  And the list goes on.  But usually within few weeks or a month or two the courts will set a parenting schedule, especially once the parents have separated and are living separately.  That's why we suggest you double check, it's hard for us to accept that it's so hard to get a parenting schedule ordered now that you're living apart, and we've been around the block, so to speak, more than once.  Not saying that your lawyer isn't proactive enough, but it's okay to double check.

Another idea, over the years I've been in family court many times.  The staff are helpful to an extent, they're quickly tell me they can't give legal advice.  However, they may be able to tell you how to contact the local Bar Association and what other ways are available for you to get a schedule ordered sooner... .   and then add that it's something your lawyer should handle.

We're only peer support.  Even if there's nothing more to be done than what's already set up by your lawyer, that's fine, we're here to help you get through the next several stressful weeks or months.

Edit:  I filed for divorce because my ex was blocking all contact with my son.  It took me a few weeks to get a local lawyer, get papers in order and to file.  Then I had to wait 7 weeks for that first divorce hearing.  They told me there was no way to do it sooner than scheduled.  Once I was in court and got the same magistrate I had several months before, I could understand why they said that, the magistrate wasn't outraged at all that I had been blocked by then for 3 months.  All he said was , "Well, Mr. FD will get to start seeing his son again this weekend, he'll get alternate weekend and an evening in between.  If there had been outrage, I'd like to think I would have gotten immediate contact and make-up time as well.  But I didn't.  In fact, ex asked to delay our reunion by more than a day and the magistrate granted the delay as she asked, so my weekend reunion was shortened by a day.  I was stunned, yet it didn't phase my court.

So what I want to add is that your court may or may not react to the problems as you wish.

[nowheretogo]

FD,

I appreciate what you are saying.  I am looking into consulting at least one other attorney today. 

Will keep you posted.

Thanks,

nwtg

[GaGrl]

All my positive energy being sent your way... .  

[nowheretogo]

Custody conciliation is this morning at 10 am.  Either ex has a new attorney or is going alone, not sure which.    He is fixated on getting more stuff out of the home, saying he will file suit and that I "violated the agreement".  He got everything from the list of things he asked for with the marital settlement agreement, with the exception of "1/2 of the outdoor furniture".  Included in that list was every "big ticket item" we had, including a 2000 Lincoln Navigator that I bought about 6 months ago for 10K (but titled in his name because he was at the auction to purchase it with my money while I was at work), a riding lawn mower, a 60 inch flat screen tv, new grill, etc.  also took SEVERAL things not on the list including all of the things I have purchased in the last couple of years to maintain the home (shop vac, pressure washer, leaf blower, gas powered pump, weed wacker, new power drill, tv stand, camera, etc).  He sold everything out of our shed to include ladder wheel barrow, shovels, rakes, and all tools.   He has been texting me about problems that his car has (was his car before marriage, but I drove for the past few years because he sold my car before we even got married).  Am I the only one disgusted by all of this?

I am going to offer the every other Fri-Sun and wed. night dinners... .  that's it.  I know he'll probably get more when it's done, but I want the court to award it to him after they have seen and heard all of the facts.  I am not going to just give him what he wants.  The down side to this is that we will now have to go through evaluations (psych evals, home studies, etc) before there is an actual custody hearing, which will drag out teh amount of time that there is no order and that he is able to control the custody schedule becasue he has no job.

He is sticking to nothing but 50/50 because that is his chance for sustainable income without working via child support from me.

L says no judge will give it to him.

[GaGrl]

When my DH filed for divorce, he and the uNPD/BPD we call The Dark Princess had been separated for 14 years.  Even then, she was determined to make the divorce as difficult and as advantageous to her as possible.  Much of this was because DH finally filed because we had reconnected (knew each other as teens), and we wanted to marry -- if I had not been the reason, she might have been OK with a divorce, as she had offered several times.

The demands were ridiculous, and she could not accept that she wasn't in a position to demand anything (several years after leaving DH, her Asian friend introduced her to the business of Asian massage parlors, and TDP realized she could make a lot of money doing what she had been doing for years for free.  Basically, TDP turned into a prostitute.

All this to say... .  

What we learned during the divorce negotiations is that you have to find that one "button" to push that is going to get the PD past the stalling and demands.  Problem is... .  how do you discover what that button is?  With TDP, it was DH finally saying, "Well, it looks like we can't agree on these final items.  I'll tell my lawyer to schedule a court date."  And suddenly, TDP was willing to sign the settlement agreement as DH had drawn it up.  With her, the button was appearing in court and having to answer questions about her illegal business front.

So isn't there an issue with your ex's former probation jofficer ob that he doesn't want exposed?

[catnap]

It is disgusting the amount of entitlement he is exhibiting.  Again, Gagirl has an excellent idea. . .he does have the hot button issue of his work history. 

Please let us know how the custody conciliation went. 

[KateCat]

So isn't there an issue with your ex's former probation jofficer ob that he doesn't want exposed?

Wouldn't this particular type of former employer cover its liability by documentation of everything that happened? Could you ask your attorney if this type of information can be subpoenaed in a custody evaluation?

The murky circumstances of the firing, and the on-going alcoholism, could be the "big guns" in your situation. If nothing else, your ex can't really be excited about having outsiders monitor his drinking or delve into the possibility of past coercive sexual solicitation activities?

What does your ex have to say about a custody evaluation? He's got some chutzpah if he's saying, "Bring it on!" and thinking that you really will bring it on.

[KateCat]

Oh, and big congratulations on getting a divorce and getting him to move out. That took courage. 

[livednlearned]

I am going to offer the every other Fri-Sun and wed. night dinners... .  that's it.  I know he'll probably get more when it's done, but I want the court to award it to him after they have seen and heard all of the facts.  I am not going to just give him what he wants. 

The strong you, the one that has been there all along, is really showing here 

[catnap]

  nwtg

How are you doing? 

[livednlearned]

 nwtg

How are you doing? 

I want to know too! How are you?

[nowheretogo]

Lnl and catnap,

It means a lot to me that you are checking up on me!

I am doing ok... . I've just been soo busy and preoccupied with everything.

Let's see, an update is in order.

The custody conciliation was held May 8th.  Amazingly, we walked out with a temporary agreement that is now a temporary order.  It is pretty much a 2/3 to 1/3 split, with me getting the 2/3.  I also now have both D3 and S7 on the same weekends.  Ex  gets D3 every other Fri-Sun night, Thursday overnight after his weekend, and Tuesday overnight after mine.  It is still way too much, but I am better off having an order in place until the custody hearing will take place... . probably late August or September.

The night of the conciliation, ex first texted me saying the weekends were wrong and I better talk with my attorney tomorrow.  I checked and it looked ok to me.  He then got on the phone with me and started saying "I still love you, I am always going to love you, it doesn't have to be this way, never had to be this way, I can't do those weekends, that's not what I said", etc.  He was sounding crazy as usual.  I told him to work it out with the attorneys.  He now says that I am "not being amicable" as he has said many times before, whenever I don't agree to whatever he wants.  He was saying that he said that he was only going to agree to those weekends if we agreed to 50/50 custody that day... . well, 4 out of 5 people in the room would not agree with that.  He was acting angry and offensive and defensive at the conciliation, and sounding crazy.  We thought for a minute that we might make the agreement into a permanent order, but he pushed for the custody hearing, saying that only 50/50 custody is best for D3.  He also wrote me another crazy email maybe a little more than a week ago, saying how we should just start agreeing now, we don't have to go through the courts, and he is only asking for 4 more nights/month (50/50).  I ignored it.

So now we have a pretrial conference on Thursday, June 6th, at 1030 am.  We had to fill out parenting plans and share with each other this past Fri.  We basically wrote what we said we wanted at the conciliation.  I put for primary physical and legal custody, because why should I have to get his approval on everything when I've made the decisions all along, and he is always antagonistic per his personality.  He won't have her best interest in mind, but rather, his.  ie, if considering extra-curricular activities, he will worry about having to put off drinking until after transporting her and about more gas money.  I also asked for him to get every other Fri and Sat overnight and every Wed. evening from 3pm-7pm.  I know it sounds harsh, but he is not a good influence on any child, and he is the worst influence on anyone who lives with him, because that is when he is truly himself... . I know you all know what I mean by this!  I attached S7's custody schedule, and asked for holidays to be as close to matching as possible.  Ex is asking for 50/50 custody, shared legal.

L says that the judge will more than likely be ordering evaluations at the pretrial conference.  Of course since ex is refusing, crying poor, after I just had to give him $65K for the divorce settlement, so they will make me pay, and give me the chance to try to have the courts split the cost when it is through.  I think the evaluations are possibly paramount to my success at the custody hearing.  In addition, L thinks that it is good that ex will have to abide by the current temporary order for months until then.

He has sold the Lincoln Navigator, and D3 says he has a motorcycle now.  I am always thinking about all of the selfish, mean, and nasty things he has done/said, and it upsets me, but keeps me on the right path.  He will never suck me back in now.

Again, thank you so much for continuing to support me and think about me.  I have been thinking about all of you, too, and am so glad to finally be back in touch!

[livednlearned]

I'm pretty sure you and I married the same guy. 

It sounds to me like you did really well with the temporary order.  Any chance your ex is already undercutting his time with D3?

I put for primary physical and legal custody, because why should I have to get his approval on everything when I've made the decisions all along, and he is always antagonistic per his personality.  He won't have her best interest in mind, but rather, his.  ie, if considering extra-curricular activities, he will worry about having to put off drinking until after transporting her and about more gas money.  I also asked for him to get every other Fri and Sat overnight and every Wed. evening from 3pm-7pm.  I know it sounds harsh, but he is not a good influence on any child, and he is the worst influence on anyone who lives with him, because that is when he is truly himself... . I know you all know what I mean by this!  I attached S7's custody schedule, and asked for holidays to be as close to matching as possible.  Ex is asking for 50/50 custody, shared legal.

Stick to your guns on this issue. You're probably headed to trial, is my guess. Pre-trial for me was just moving a pawn two spaces forward. And now that there is an order in place, your ex is going to demonstrate in spectacular ways what you already know to be true: he's not stable. It bugged me to no end how slow the process works, but I can't deny that the extra time made it so that N/BPDx's nutty behavior really showed.

I can totally imagine how your ex's weird reasoning sounded crazy to everyone else. My ex did the same thing, explaining his interpretation of the order to the judge and the court, despite how desperately flawed the logic was.

And one more thing -- you sound really good. You sound strong and grounded 

I knew you would 

[Matt]

One strategy might be to go slow, and let the temporary orders be in place for as long as possible before things become final.

The reason is to let the other party experience some time with the kids, alone, and see if he really wants more;  it may be that after a few months his interest will cool and he'll be fine with 1/3 or even less.

Also, over a few months, his performance might not be so good - he might show that he's not capable of parenting alone.  That will work in your favor.

If you can have a thorough evaluation that will probably be good - psych evals for both parents, and drug/alcohol screening.  Get as much data as possible.

Usually, where I live, the most common solution is shared legal custody, but one parent might get most of the time with the kids - maybe every-other-weekend for the less-involved and less-healthy parent.  Be prepared for that - joint legal might not be your preference but it may not be worth fighting.

[ForeverDad]

He switched from a car to a motorcycle?  How is he transporting D3?  I don't believe he can drive her anywhere on a motorcycle.  How will he get her to exchanges, appointments, daycare, or anywhere else?

Yes, when he claims poverty, your position is that he is fully capable of working but you shouldn't be penalized for him being a lazy bum.  (Okay, your lawyer may choose less blunt words.)  And keep reminding the court that he just received generous megabucks in a settlement for a very short marriage and so he can afford to pay for his share of court costs, evaluation costs, etc.

Remember, if the lawyers and judge resist you having sole custody, at least try to get tie-breaker or decision-making rights.  If they complain or argue that there's no need, then ask them how anything will ever get done in a timely way when you two don't agree on something.  Perhaps your tie-breaker right can be 'balanced' by his right to refer it (afterward) to a mediator, parenting coordinator or even court.

Now that you have majority time confirmed in writing, never ever let that go.  No amount of guilting or whatever should be enough to gift that away.

[nowheretogo]

Thank you, my friends, for your replies!

yes, lnl, we may have done that (married the same guy).  your ex is an attorney, but mine was a probation officer, also involved with the legal system.  Thinks he knows everything with regards to that, but really far from it, not even having a degree.  We are definitely headed to trial, but won't be until at least mid August.  Having evaluations will probably drag it out even more.  So, yes, Matt, dragging it out may be a decent strategy at this point.  Right now, all of his friends and his son are willing to be there and help out when D3 is around, but I suspect that will grow old.  At some point, he and his son will have a falling out, and he won't be around either.  He is not a "fathery" sort of guy.

FD, he didn't switch to a motorcycle.  He still has his car.  Remember, he got both vehicles with the settlement, one to sell for cash (or trade in for a motorcycle?).  I will continue to bring up the fact that he should have more liquid cash than I do post settlement, and also that he always said that there is something wrong with me/I'm effed up in the head and should have help/evaluation.  I'll probably get stuck paying and never seeing his half even if it gets ordered, though.

I like your idea about the tie-breaker for sole legal custody.  My L has warned me that almost no one gets it and I realize that, but it IS the best thing for D3, so I'm going to try.

I will never "give" him any more time than he has now

[livednlearned]

I like your idea about the tie-breaker for sole legal custody.  My L has warned me that almost no one gets it and I realize that, but it IS the best thing for D3, so I'm going to try.

Ask your L if you can read the case law on that. Honestly, it took me a long time for my stressed out brain to understand the difference between "full custody" and "sole custody" and "sole physical custody" "joint physical custody" joint legal custody" "joint legal custody plus decision-making" blah blah blah. Then there was a parenting coordinator for a while, and that was kinda fuzzy too.

If your L is saying sole, full custody is not common, then that makes sense. But I doubt that sole legal custody is impossible to get. I thought maybe it was only important because my citizenship is in another country and I need it to travel home (without getting permission from N/BPDx). But if you want to get T for your child, or pick a better school, or make a major decision about medical treatment -- that's when sole legal really counts.

I've already seen N/BPDx mess with S11's opportunities simply out of hatred and spite for me. Sole legal custody matters in my case.

[Matt]

Where I live, shared legal custody is standard, even if one parent has the kids almost all the time.

For example, it's pretty common for one parent to have the kids "EOW" (every other weekend) and they spend the rest of the time with the parent who has primary residential custody.  But they both still have shared legal custody, so if one parent wants to make a big decision - religion, major medical, moving, education - they have to come to an agreement or get the court involved.

That's what I have, and I was concerned about it, but it hasn't been a problem.  Here's an example:

A few years ago I needed to move for work.  I applied to a charter school which is very good academically, and the kids got in.  Along the way, I told their mom about that, but I didn't actually ask her - just told her, "They were admitted to XYZ, which is a very good school."  She could have fought it, but it would have been obviously unwise to do that, so she let it go.

On the other hand, the decision to relocate, she did fight - also unwise, but it took a lot of time and money to resolve it.  But at least it was an issue big enough to be worth fighting over, and it's the only big fight we've had in 6 years - not too bad... .

[nowheretogo]

I guess it's like what you have where you are here,Matt.  Shared legal custody is pretty much the norm.  L basically said what I will wind up doing is what you have just described, ie, making the decisions and letting him take it to court if he so decides.  I told L that we will be in court all of the time, then.  Although I am glad to see that that has not been true for you, it is  hard to imagine that he wouldn't be obstructive because he would view any change I want to make as something I want to do to benefit myself, not D3, and therefore, he would want to prevent me from making said change. 

Like lnl said,

"I've already seen N/BPDx mess with S11's opportunities simply out of hatred and spite for me. Sole legal custody matters in my case." ( I still can't figure out how you'll paste quotes out of people's posts),

that is what I imagine happening fairly routinely with my ex.

Anyway, I'm still going to "try" for it.  I will work with what I get, but I won't get it if I don't try!

Lnl,  what examples can you give me of your ex trying to mess with your S11's opportunities?

[Matt]

You might be able to minimize the chaos by how you manage key issues.

For example, in choosing a school, you could write the other party, "The kids were accepted into ReallyGood School, which is a really good school.  Here's a link to their academic performance:  <link>.  They will start there August 30."  That gives him the information, so he can't say he didn't know, and theoretically he could challenge it, since he has joint legal custody.  But it doesn't invite a fight, and he would look like a jerk if he fights without any good reason.

If he picks fights anyway, and you have e-mails that document it, you can later go back to court - maybe each time he takes an issue in front of the court - and say, "Joint legal isn't working because Mr. Ex fights over stuff.  I am asking for sole legal, with the requirement that I keep Mr. Ex informed and consult him before making decisions."  Or "joint legal, with Ms. Togo having tie-breaker status, to minimize the need for court."

Make sure everything you do shows that you are coming up with practical solutions, not aiming for a fight.

[ForeverDad]

What your lawyer said never happens may have been about seeking sole custody.  Maybe joint custody with decision-making may be less of a hurdle to accomplish in court?  Here is a way to seek the best outcome possible in court.  You and your lawyer should start with the most favorable option, then work your way down the list.  Here's an example of an unhelpful court, probably all too typical:

You:   Due to the conflict, lack of agreement and continuing obstructions, I am asking for sole/full legal custody.

Court: No, the court doesn't see the need.

You:   Then I ask for joint custody with decision-making or tie-breaker status.

Court: No, the court doesn't see the need.

You:   Then I ask for joint custody with decision-making or tie-breaker status until it can be resolved by a mediator, parenting coordinator, GAL or the court, whichever is the appropriate resolution method.

Court: No, the court doesn't see the need.

You:   Then we'll be back, over and over again.

Court: No big deal.  We'll be here. (Yawn)

The point is that even if you get a No at first, then rethink what else to try and keep trying to see what works.

Fortunately, the courts are good at assigning a Residential Parent for School Purposes.  Supposedly it does nothing except give that parent the ability to resolve which schools the child attends simply by residence in that school district.  However, it is a subtle indicator of which parent has a slight edge over the other.  Even if your child isn't ready for school now, kids grow up fast, get that specified so it's one less thing to take back to court in a  couple years.

One final note... . Since your ex has other children and his historical pattern has been a not-very-involved parent, that's an indicator that at some point he may recede into the parenting background.  But not yet, not until he's exhausted his dreams of getting child support or more financial breadcrumbs.  So take heart, soon your divorce case will end with a final decree and your long term problems may not be as overwhelming as the experiences of some of the other parents here with extremely possessive ex-spouses.

[livednlearned]

I guess it's like what you have where you are here,Matt.  Shared legal custody is pretty much the norm.  L basically said what I will wind up doing is what you have just described, ie, making the decisions and letting him take it to court if he so decides.  I told L that we will be in court all of the time, then.  Although I am glad to see that that has not been true for you, it is  hard to imagine that he wouldn't be obstructive because he would view any change I want to make as something I want to do to benefit myself, not D3, and therefore, he would want to prevent me from making said change.

My L says that the classic abuser ex husband profile is someone who will fight harder on the legal custody, and be a little less severe with the physical custody because the former is about control and the latter is about hands-on work. Once the spotlight is off the "fight," you're probably right that your ex will start having excuses about actually doing the hands-on work with D3. Either that, or he will be neglectful with her while she's in his care.  :'(

I still can't figure out how you'll paste quotes out of people's posts),

You can either select the little quote button/link thingy in the upper right hand corner of the text bos, or highlight what you want to quote and then click that yellow box button under the red letter A (kinda underneath the "change color" box. It will put the whole thing in a quote box.

Lnl,  what examples can you give me of your ex trying to mess with your S11's opportunities?

There is an excellent social-emotional program for middle school kids. I felt strongly that some of S11's learning issues would disappear if he had a good team helping him work through the social-emotional stuff. Plus, he was diagnosed ADHD and gifted, but I suspect he's high-functioning dyslexic (he can read). I'm dyslexic, but it costs a lot of money to get the testing, and the outcome (a 504 plan to accommodate differentiated learning) is the same. The school I wanted S11 to attend has one of the best differentiated learning programs in our state, and there's a lot of project-based and inquiry-based learning that S11 excels at.

I had to include N/BPDx in the parent interview process because we shared legal custody. When we showed up at the parent interview for private school, N/BPDx went on a rant. The admissions counselor ended the session 15 minutes early because N/BPDx raised his voice at me and things because incredibly hostile. S11 never got into the program. 

Also, if you want to get a passport for D3 to travel out of the country, you'll need your ex's permission. If you want to get your D into therapy, you'll need his permission. He will probably treat decision-making as ANYTHING that requires a decision, and can try to sabotage you on many minor things -- that's what N/BPDx did for the first two years. But like Matt said, and my L reinforced, you can do a lot of things (most things) without needing his consent. Just go ahead and do what's best for D3. No judge will punish you if it's in her best interests.

But passports, traveling out of state, making a major decision about school or medical treatment -- the major things -- you won't be able to do anything unless you get his permission. And the chances of that are slim... .

Because D3 is so young, I think it's worth it to fight for it. Or at least don't agree to it, and leave the case open, and let time go by so he has plenty of opportunity to mess up. If you agree (and your L is probably going to pressure you to do that), then you have an extra layer of hassle to unpack. The judge will see that you thought it was ok at one point, and will want to know what major circumstances have made you change your mind. That's a harder legal argument to make.

[nowheretogo]

omg, it makes me so angry to know that ex will try to prevent therapy, passports, out of state travel, moving to good schools closer to my job, etc.  Because he will!  He wants me to be tied down.  He has already started by trying to have my custody schedule arranged so that I always have the kids on the weekends.  Not a huge deal to me, but pretty indicative of who he is.  It's not fair to D3 that she wouldn't be allowed to go see grandparents, friends, and the world, because he refuses to sign papers.  He is scared to fly, so he doesn't want her to fly.  He didn't want me to travel 300 yards around the corner with her to take her shopping when he lived with us! He doesn't want her to see her grandparents, because he doesn't like them.  I just can't stand this kind of person!  So, can I do these things without his consent *unless* he disagrees?  ie, buy tickets to fly to Hawaii and tell him we're going, and then have to go to court when he disagrees?  I am thinking more and more how important getting sole legal custody will be for D3.  Don't give up the ship!

[sanemom]

omg, it makes me so angry to know that ex will try to prevent therapy, passports, out of state travel, moving to good schools closer to my job, etc.  Because he will!  He wants me to be tied down.  He has already started by trying to have my custody schedule arranged so that I always have the kids on the weekends.  Not a huge deal to me, but pretty indicative of who he is.  It's not fair to D3 that she wouldn't be allowed to go see grandparents, friends, and the world, because he refuses to sign papers.  He is scared to fly, so he doesn't want her to fly.  He didn't want me to travel 300 yards around the corner with her to take her shopping when he lived with us! He doesn't want her to see her grandparents, because he doesn't like them.  I just can't stand this kind of person!  So, can I do these things without his consent *unless* he disagrees?  ie, buy tickets to fly to Hawaii and tell him we're going, and then have to go to court when he disagrees?  I am thinking more and more how important getting sole legal custody will be for D3.  Don't give up the ship!

Over here we have the option of "independent rights" where both parents can do their therapy with the kid, etc. without the other parent's consent.  Is that an option there?

[Matt]

Some of these issues sound very reasonable to bring up at this point.  "I think it will work better if I have sole legal (or tie-breaker) custody, so there won't be problems if it makes sense to put the kids into a good school closer to where I work;  or to take the kids to see their grandparents in another state;  etc.  With shared legal custody, he could block those reasonable things."

The court might still decide on shared legal custody, but include in the court order that you can take the kids out of state without his permission, or you can move closer to your work, etc.

Consider drafting language for each of those issues, so if that's how things go, you'll be prepared.  Sometimes courts find it easier to rubber-stamp language proposed by one of the parties than to draft the language themselves.

[Matt]

Over here we have the option of "independent rights" where both parents can do their therapy with the kid, etc. without the other parent's consent.  Is that an option there?

The way that worked in my case - before custody was settled, we had joint legal custody in the temporary orders.  I decided the kids were under a lot of stress - then 8 and 10 - and should see a counselor.  I consulted with their school counselor, who recommended a counselor in private practice, so I made an appointment - first I talked with the counselor myself, and then I started taking the kids to see her.

I didn't mention it to their mom, but I also didn't tell them not to tell her.  After a few months, the counselor asked if she could talk to their mom, and I gave her stbX's contact information.  Ultimately the court ruled that the kids should continue seeing the counselor, and the cost should be shared between the parents.  My wife's lawyer tried to use it as a negative that I had taken them to a counselor without their mom's permission, but the court ignored that - it was obviously in the kids' interest to see the counselor, and I didn't use the counselor as a weapon in the custody battle.

I think this is a good lesson:  Do what is best for the kids and it won't be held against you.

[livednlearned]

Consider drafting language for each of those issues, so if that's how things go, you'll be prepared.  Sometimes courts find it easier to rubber-stamp language proposed by one of the parties than to draft the language themselves.

Exactly. Put every item in there that you anticipate will be a problem. If your ex doesn't agree, then you go to trial and the judge makes the decision. You're likely to end up having the judge give you something better than what your ex will propose, especially if your request is reasonable. I know that isn't always the case, but it happened like that in mine and my ex and yours sound disordered in a similar way. If your ex agrees, then you wait a while for him to start messing with the order, and then you file motions for contempt and you go to court, and the judge gets pissed that your ex is disobeying an order that he agreed to.

For me, I eventually reached an awesome place of medium chill. While I don't like the expense and still get angry from time to time, for the most part, I look at it like a rash that won't go away, that I have to treat from time to time, and that if I take care of myself, eat well, get exercise, etc., can keep the rash in check.

[catnap]

So good to hear an update, and you sound very strong and grounded.   

[nowheretogo]

Thanks, catnap.

Had pretrial conference today.  Judge met with Ls only and I had the "priveledge" of sitting next to ex on the only bench outside of the courtroom and listening to him talk to me.  At least he was being "nice ex", but still saying things like "You're the one who is bringing us here/doing this; it doesn't have to be like this; I'm only asking for 4 more overnights (per month); we could just be amicable".   

According to L, Judge also thought I sounded strong and grounded    L said he was impressed by me, although I never met him. 

Outcome of today is that Judge ordered custody evaluations... . initial report to be completed in 45 days, final report in 3 mos.  Then, ex and I are supposed to "try to reach an agreement", and if not, a custody hearing will be scheduled.  L says I will do well with evaluations, and final outcome should be either same as current "temporary" schedule, or with changes in my benefit.

So, I guess it will now be time for me to start a new thread along the lines of what to expect/how to prepare for the evaluations and probable hearing.

[ForeverDad]

"I'm only asking for 4 more overnights (per month); we could just be amicable."

From what you wrote before, the temp order has him with 5 overnights every 2 weeks, 5 out of 14.  So his "amicable only 4 more" in a month would raise him to 7 out of 14.  Timewise, equal.  Amicable, my eye.   With his lower and spotty income, you can guess he's angling to get CS - or, failing that, to avoid paying CS.

I have custody and 7 out of 14 days, equal time.  Due to our "income disparity" - though ex has never disclosed to the court her income - I pay my ex almost as much in CS as I did when I had 3 out of 14.  Meanwhile I have yet to see a penny in order-authorized reimbursements all these years.  No consequences, no credit.

See you on the new thread.