When is the point that "BPD" strikes/blossoms?

[Parents! Get help here!]

This may sound silly, but I have the following question:

Does BPD organically develop with time, or does it have to have a trigger that causes it to "break out"?

Is there a detectable threshold?

Do you guys know what the research says on that?

The reason for my question is my sd32. As many of you describe your children, there were also signs all along from early on in her childhood. But again, just as many of your children, she seemed to be mostly ok in spite of some problems. Then, in late adolescence/early adulthood (right on schedule) her BPD traits started emerging (we had no idea what we were dealing with at the time, but looking back, it is obvious). Little a year ago, we had a complete breakdown in communication with her, and we experienced some behaviors that were extreme, that we had never seen before. That's when we finally found out about BPD. She recently started calling again, but we are cautious, and applying our new skills as best as we can.

So, what we are trying to find out is when did she "become a pwBPD"? Did she slowly, undetectably cross the threshold, or was she triggered into it by some event?

Many of you describe a point in your lives when "all hell broke lose". That for us would have been last year, however, we're wondering: Was she BPD before and we just did not observe it because she did not display it in our presence to this degree?

[pessim-optimist]

This may sound silly, but I have the following question:

Does BPD organically develop with time, or does it have to have a trigger that causes it to "break out"?

Is there a detectable threshold?

Do you guys know what the research says on that?

The reason for my question is my sd32. As many of you describe your children, there were also signs all along from early on in her childhood. But again, just as many of your children, she seemed to be mostly ok in spite of some problems. Then, in late adolescence/early adulthood (right on schedule) her BPD traits started emerging (we had no idea what we were dealing with at the time, but looking back, it is obvious). Little a year ago, we had a complete breakdown in communication with her, and we experienced some behaviors that were extreme, that we had never seen before. That's when we finally found out about BPD. She recently started calling again, but we are cautious, and applying our new skills as best as we can.

So, what we are trying to find out is when did she "become a pwBPD"? Did she slowly, undetectably cross the threshold, or was she triggered into it by some event?

Many of you describe a point in your lives when "all hell broke lose". That for us would have been last year, however, we're wondering: Was she BPD before and we just did not observe it because she did not display it in our presence to this degree?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[qcarolr]

pessim -O

There is not a definitive answer, though lots and lots of research showing definite patterns of underactiviy/overactivity in relevant brain areas with BPD. This shows up with other mental illness also, though the actions may be in different brain systems. From my reading it seems that things are out of balance internally so interpersonal relationships get out of balance and then the pwBPD, or potential BPD, cannot cope and they fall apart.

All adolescents and young adults are going through a lot with hormone changes, brain development changes, and expectations of greater independence most especially in their peer relationships. There are many here that first see issues when kids go off to college - independent, without support system of family and community, new friendships, disolution of these friendships. These are all normal challenges. PwBPD do not seem to have the internal mechanisms to handle all this change.

For my DD26 there were other issues that pushed the BPD traits at a very early age - adoption (3 weeks), dysregulation (sleep patterns, colic-excema-allergies, fine motor and gross motor imbalances, defined non-verbal learning disability (just under scale for Asperger's syndrome). This triggered things at a much younger age. She also suffered some peer related sexual abuse at age 4 and age 8. She had attachment issues with dh from the beginning. Such a complex girl, and now woman. The psych doc who treated her starting at age 6 when she was in psych hospital for violent behaviors stated that she would have a hard life. Her NLD espcially was not something that meds could help, and her complex combination of things limited her compensating abilities. I have such deep sorrow, and am coming to accept (again) that loving her and validating her and keeping myself healthy and composed is the best I can do for her. And to continue to put opportunites for her to choose to work with a case manager (other than me) and treatment options in her path. Ultimately only she can decide what she will do with her life - or her life will choose for her.

This is my personal opinion based on what I have experienced and read. What do you all think?

qcr  

[vivekananda]

pessi-o

Hmmm. I am beginning to wonder if most of us have some sort of mental illness... .   the world seems so crazy to me now... .   my granma used to say 'all the world is mad, 'cept thee and me, and even thou are a little mad, mine thinketh' I think she was in a good position to know too.

This is what I understand with BPD. 1) genetic predisposition (nature) 2) environment (nurture)

1) I believe my dd got her genetic load from me and from her dad, a double dose perhaps... .   but I don't understand how I am not BPD and while I worry about dh at times, he is not BPD either. So, I don't understand how the gene thing works... .  

2) Dd was difficult from birth, colic, over sensitive, difficulty sleeping. She was not a giving child - didn't let on what was going on in her mind, or talk much about what happened. She was pretty darned good with her verbal intelligence, had me tied up in an argument of logic when she was 3. Temper tantrums throughout her childhood. Approaching puberty I became very worried for potential sexual promiscuity and took measures to cope with that. From about 13 I began to 'lose' the 'struggle'. As she began to lie badly and gain independence. By the tie she was 16, I had mentally divorced her - she had been attacking me consistently and getting away with it. I just thought I would do what I could to keep her safe till she was 18. The world was telling me her problems were my fault - I was too strict, too tense, too whatever... .   if i'd only relax it would be ok, she'd grow out of it, all kids are like that. When she was 17 dh had a terminal illness and he spent about a year slowly dying (a transplant saved him eventually). When she turned 18 dd left home one night and never returned. We had serious at risk behaviour with drugs that lasted a couple of years (I think). Always secretive, dd now tells us nothing, she thinks that is being independent.

This is how I understand it. dd was a 'special' kid and I didn't have the skills to deal with a 'special' kid (ie validation). I was completely unsupported and isolated throughout her childhood. Dd was super close with me until pre puberty when she turned her eyes to dh, who melted. dh and I were not 'on the same page'. We were working so hard to get ahead. I had high anxiety, post natal depression big time that lasted for years and years. So, the home environment could have been better, but nevertheless, I believe one of the reasons dd is as good as she is, is because she had a loving, caring, strongly values based home.

So, she had a predisposition for BPD but apart form that, no other illnesses, no traumas, a happy home. She had issues with friendships, but nothing that stood out. As we grow from babies into toddlers into kids, we build neural pathways within our brain: hand eye co-ordination; memory skills; language skills etc. Dd was obviously in retrospect not building sufficient neural pathways so that the basic emotions (fear, anger, frustration, hurt) did not have strong links with logic and reason (from amydala to pre frontal cortex). But she was learning them. When the hormones kicked in, this began to change. Social mores sold to her via advertising, pop culture etc, combined with peer pressure and with complicity of our culture of individualism and consumerism, became overly strong influences. No need to think, emotional reaction gets you what you want. And things began to go backwards. As a teenager, the brain goes through a culling period. Those neural pathways that are strong, get reinforced - those that are weak, are culled. dd's neural pathways linking her emotions and logic would have been pared away from about 15... .   but, that early work on loving kindness and values stood strong enough in some ways. Maybe she could have come through as she grew up. But then dh got sick, was terminal, was dying, slowly... .   if there had been any chance for her, it went out the window.

At about 22 she came good. She had had a good relationship for 2 years that lasted another 5. She began to get her life into order. When that relationship broke up (he said that living with her was like walking on eggshells... .   if only I had known... .   ) we began a slow downward spiral with times when things looked as if they could be ok. Latest crisis was at 31, when she collapsed under the stress of a high powered job and series of failed relationships.

Some people think that you can 'grow' out of BPD. I don't believe it. I think things can go along looking ok and then something will go wrong and the whole things will go belly up. While things may have looked ok, in reality they are not, I think pwBPD have a chasm of emptiness inside or somesuch, a chasm that they will put a pathway over to get across, but unless that chasm is filled, it will always be a hole they can fall into. I believe they can fill that chasm and good therapy is the easiest way to do it. I think that all of us have our own hollow places places inside that we can fill with love and self compassion by practising 'mindfulness'.

so, that's what I reckon... .   until I learn something different... .  

Vivek    

[BioAdoptMom3]

I am pretty new to this, but have talked with DD's counselor and read a lot since DD13's diagnosis of BPD traits about two months ago.  In our case DD is adopted and was an abandoned baby.  People who have been adopted tend to have a lifelong fear of abandonment and rejection which is the hallmark of BPD behaviors.  When she was younger she seemed fine.  She has a very high IQ (common in BPD from what I understand) is talented musically and athletically and always was very social.  However we did deal with a lot of separation anxiety until the age of 12, some social anxiety out in public (not at school or where she knew people well) and she always hated and feared loud noises.  When she was 11 she learned from her bio sister that she was abanonded in the NICU at birth and then about 6 months or so later I was diagnosed with breast cancer (I am fine now).  It was at that point that she seemed to build a wall around her, got extremely moody, started trying desperately to change her appearance and started hanging out with friends who do not often tend to make good choices.  Her relationships with others began to suffer as she began, and still does, latch onto one good friend and then eventually sabotages the relationship.  So yeah, I guess you could say something brought it out, but now that we know we think the earlier anxieties were signs that it was there and just needed to be triggered.

[qcarolr]

I am pretty new to this, but have talked with DD's counselor and read a lot since DD13's diagnosis of BPD traits about two months ago.  In our case DD is adopted and was an abandoned baby.  People who have been adopted tend to have a lifelong fear of abandonment and rejection which is the hallmark of BPD behaviors.  When she was younger she seemed fine.  She has a very high IQ (common in BPD from what I understand) is talented musically and athletically and always was very social.  However we did deal with a lot of separation anxiety until the age of 12, some social anxiety out in public (not at school or where she knew people well) and she always hated and feared loud noises.  When she was 11 she learned from her bio sister that she was abanonded in the NICU at birth and then about 6 months or so later I was diagnosed with breast cancer (I am fine now).  It was at that point that she seemed to build a wall around her, got extremely moody, started trying desperately to change her appearance and started hanging out with friends who do not often tend to make good choices.  Her relationships with others began to suffer as she began, and still does, latch onto one good friend and then eventually sabotages the relationship.  So yeah, I guess you could say something brought it out, but now that we know we think the earlier anxieties were signs that it was there and just needed to be triggered.

I think the adoption issues can lead to attachment problems - this seems to be a trigger for interference in the path of development for kids - seen through their behaviors and confirmed by recent neuroscience studies. The part about anxiety, and sensitivity to loud noises (which can be part of a hypervigilant response as part of the social anxiety). Since not all adopted children have these attachment issues, I think there are more complexities underlying this. It is all not from the environment. Some of it could be from whatever led to being in the NICU at birth, and perhaps limited or no prenatal care from the biomom. We cannot know, or have control over, the genetic mix and the prenatal development. So each child is born with a unique potential.

I agree with viv about

This is how I understand it. dd was a 'special' kid and I didn't have the skills to deal with a 'special' kid (ie validation). I was completely unsupported and isolated throughout her childhood. Dd was super close with me until pre puberty when she turned her eyes to dh, who melted. dh and I were not 'on the same page'. We were working so hard to get ahead. I had high anxiety, post natal depression big time that lasted for years and years. So, the home environment could have been better, but nevertheless, I believe one of the reasons dd is as good as she is, is because she had a loving, caring, strongly values based home.

  This is a very close match to my experience with my DD26.

qcr  

[qcarolr]

Some people think that you can 'grow' out of BPD. I don't believe it. I think things can go along looking ok and then something will go wrong and the whole things will go belly up. While things may have looked ok, in reality they are not, I think pwBPD have a chasm of emptiness inside or somesuch, a chasm that they will put a pathway over to get across, but unless that chasm is filled, it will always be a hole they can fall into. I believe they can fill that chasm and good therapy is the easiest way to do it. I think that all of us have our own hollow places places inside that we can fill with love and self compassion by practising 'mindfulness'.

so, that's what I reckon... .   until I learn something different... .  

I really have seen this process, or cycling, with my DD26. She has a pretty short cycle of a couple months more stable, month or so falling apart, pick up the peices, couple months more stable... .     She definitely has a very deep emptiness that has to be filled ASAP after the loss of her primary r/s. Sometimes she reaches out to me to fill this. Most often it is a peer that fills it -- for about 2 months. She is now recycling r/s with 2-3 guys she has been with in past 4 years in this 2 momth cycle. Feels so crazy to me - I have to very deliberately distance myself from this pattern to keep my own sanity. I have to work to accept that I cannot fell this hole -- I can only keep putting opportunities for her to choose therapy in front of her. She may or may not ever choose to participate in therapy and get out of her cycle. There are therapies that show so much benefit... .  

So I have to keep working on my own mindfulness, to fill my own hollow places, then I can be the best I can be.

The other part I have noticed is that there are some behaviors that are very prevalent in teens that do seem to get better with age, and that is SI. Or does the cutting type SI just change to other risky behaviors that have more peer acceptance?

So many questions!

qcr  

[pessim-optimist]

Thank you everyone, this is a good discussion, we seem to have very similar experiences with different details and different backgrounds, similar results though.

Our ud32 (my sd), seemed to be ok until she got out on her own (she got engaged and married at 18) - still married to the same guy (God bless him), three children. Very turbulent relationship though, and lots of conflict with the outside world too. Looking back at it, I think that her father, who she grew up with provided the needed structure for her, as long as she was with him. After that, it was slowly down hill. Her husband was in the military the whole time up until a year and a half ago, and that's when things went crazy... .  

So, I guess, had she stayed artificially in some rigidly structured lifestyle, on the outside, she may have remained semi-ok? But life usually is more complicated than that... .   ?

So, she had a predisposition for BPD but apart form that, no other illnesses, no traumas, a happy home. She had issues with friendships, but nothing that stood out. As we grow from babies into toddlers into kids, we build neural pathways within our brain: hand eye co-ordination; memory skills; language skills etc. Dd was obviously in retrospect not building sufficient neural pathways so that the basic emotions (fear, anger, frustration, hurt) did not have strong links with logic and reason (from amydala to pre frontal cortex). But she was learning them. When the hormones kicked in, this began to change. Social mores sold to her via advertising, pop culture etc, combined with peer pressure and with complicity of our culture of individualism and consumerism, became overly strong influences. No need to think, emotional reaction gets you what you want. And things began to go backwards. As a teenager, the brain goes through a culling period. Those neural pathways that are strong, get reinforced - those that are weak, are culled. dd's neural pathways linking her emotions and logic would have been pared away from about 15... .   but, that early work on loving kindness and values stood strong enough in some ways. Maybe she could have come through as she grew up. But then dh got sick, was terminal, was dying, slowly... .   if there had been any chance for her, it went out the window.

Hm, the culling period. What an interesting piece of information! Thank you Vivek , where did you find out about that? That seems to answer my other question of: how come that the children seem to be progressing semi-ok and then suddenly they emotionally regress into the toddler stages again (this time with verbal and other capacities at their disposal) ... .   Most of the books describe people w/BPD as emotionally immature, but up until now I just could not wrap my head around how they got through life up until adolescence seeming to mature normally and then things get out of hand. Thank you!

Keep posting anyone, if you have more comments... .  

[vivekananda]

Hm, the culling period. What an interesting piece of information! Thank you Vivek , where did you find out about that?

It was about 7 or 8 years ago. I was teaching. At that stage brain research was in its vey early days. What I recall was that the brain of adolescents from about 15 - 16 until 25 - 26 went through this amazing change which was likened to the extreme growth in children's brains from 0 - 3yrs. Likened in that the intensity of change in brain development was similar, not the actual form of the changes. It was reported in the media here and because it explained so much for me, I remembered it clearly. I would tell me students 'if you don't use it, you lose it... .   '

A quick look via Google showed me a change in the info in that the ages in more recent studies showed it was in kids from 12 - 16/17.

Nevertheless our brains are 'plastic' and although the neural pathways may be diminished, they can be built, rebuilt or redirected. Brain studies show some amazing stuff. I have always been interested.

there is lots of info on adolescents and brain stuff, but try this one for info on 'culling' or as it's seems to be called now, 'pruning':

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/03/130319102757.htm

As with all things, it probably just shows us that it's more complex than we think. I think I need to do some more reading!

cheers,

Vivek    

[pessim-optimist]

Thanks so much Vivek !

That makes total sense. The psychologists were always saying that the child is pretty much set by age 3 and then that the adolescents/young adults go through another similar stage of re-assessment and deeper development! And even spiritually, we tend to accept what we are taught by our caretakers and then we re-assess in adolescence... .  

Wow, it all comes together.