How do you deal with the hate?

[sunshineplease]

I'm looking for practical tips for grieving/mourning the pain of having my UDD18 treat me like s***. The details aren't all the interesting: Mostly she's trying to split DH and me while simultaneously punishing us for not giving her what she wants (one example would be not allowing her to come home from RTC so she can attend prom with her gf -- to whom multiple therapists believe DD is "addicted". She pretends to be NC, but then makes Twitter or FB posts that are veiled references/projections. She texts my son and tells him we are "disgusting human beings" and she can't believe she shares DNA with us. Yada, yada, snooze.

But it hurts.

It hurts especially because, for about 5 minutes after she left her wilderness program, we had her back. She was genuine and open and willing to work. She was in control of herself. She even looked like a different person -- someone who was "home" in there, behind her eyes. We hadn't seen that in years. We felt the beginnings of reconnection. And what a tease it was! Once she got to the RTC, and away from 100% structure 100% of the time, she went right back to old behaviors.

I'm completely clear that this is how BPD works. I know none of this is really about me, that I need to let go and accept. I understand her need to separate. I understand this is her journey. I understand the future is one big question mark. I'm doing Al-Anon and NAMI Family-to-Family and family therapy and energy work. I'm getting out and seeing friends. I'm exercising and doing things to nurture me (going outside, meditating).

It still hurts.

I don't have a lot of experience with grief as the only monster in the room. When DD had cancer, the mourning took place in a bigger context: I had a clear path -- and hope. (I had no idea at the time that she felt she "should have died."

So, for those of you whose children feel the need to lash out aggressively (or passive-aggressively), what helps?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[mggt]

Dear sunshine,  I wish I had the answers to that question.  My d and I hardly talk we cannot have one conversation without her screaming swearing and banging things.  She was also in a rtc for 1 year 16 to 17 she is now almost 21 has a baby which we have most of the time she now has two days a week with her baby.  She is so cruel and mean to us it makes me sick to my stomach .  This BPD is so scary you never know from minute to minute what they will do and say.  The storys she has told about me and my h would make your hair curl.  My only advice is do what you feel is right I know there is no right thing when they have BPD . You are entitiled to your own feelings and emotions I know they have a disease but... .   we still need to know that we are ok and we did not cause this in anyway we have gone thru hell and back trying to get our kids help I know you have heard this before but dont take it personal ( i should talk very hard).  They really dont know what they are dong god help us all and keeping you in my prayers and sending your hugs mggt    

[vivekananda]

sunshineplease,

we grieve for the life they are leading and the obvious painfulness to them (and us, and others) that it causes. We also grieve for the life we wanted them to have, for their futures that we used to think was possible. We grieve for the family that we thought we could have. But when you have an 18 yr old who is constantly abusing you in the most hurtful way, that is another thing.

Let me remind you that my dd31 is n/c with me. She is unbelievable in her conviction that we are the parents from hell, deliberately tormenting her and making her life a misery... .   and good ness knows what. And when she was at home, when she was 18 it wasn't a nice place to be, at all... .   neither was it when she was 16 either... .   etc.

OK, you know all the right things to do. But this perhaps could help a little. Russ Harris in his book the Reality Slap, suggests that when there is a gap between what we want and what we have, is where we get our 'Reality Slap' and we do have to work at living our best life, consciously. So, we practise mindfulness (detachment, acceptance, being in touch with the universe, that sort of thing) and add self compassion to it. Consciously care for ourselves, recognise the emotional needs were are not meeting in ourselves and meet them. And, develop plans (goals etc in line with our values... .   ). This is how we can take control of our lives, take care of ourselves and learn to live through the pain.

So, I reckon the thing that you could practically do, is develop clear plans, both short term and long term. Perhaps revisit the boundaries you have of those values based on treating you with respect... .   ? Perhaps be clear of what you can do for her for the future. Get your finances in order, for example... .   plan how you will financially support her or not. Most importantly, learn about the differences in enabling and support.

I wouldn't want you to have your dd like mine, at 31 and worse than before.

Have you read the Lundberg book yet? I found that reading about BPD and things like validation was the best thing to help me clear my mind.

Finally, posting here and getting the support of the community here was the best support to help me through my hard times.

sunshineplease, when things were at their worst for me, it was a day to day process of getting through the hurt. If I was doing something that I felt was productive and adding to my understanding, I would feel easier.

take care there,

Cheers,

Vivek      

 

[BPDdaddy]

Wish I could help.  My experience is with my wife.  She says the same thing, that I'm now a disgusting human being, and she can't believe that she was married to me for 7 and 1/2 years.  We have two children.  They are witnessing this for the first time.  It does hurt, especially when you see the look in my young 3 and 1/2 year old sons face.  He wonders why mom and dad aren't happy and together anymore.  It kills me every time I think about it. 

[BioAdoptMom3]

I wish I could tell you what helps, but I can't do that.  I can only offer a bit of empathy.  Our DD is 13 and I can't even count the number of times either DH, I or both of us have gone to bed in tears over the fact that it "seems" like she hates us and/or uses us constantly.  Now, I am going to tell you about some things which have been helpful to us, though we are still dealing with the hurts. It has just made them a bit less frequent.  One is medication for her (Prozac and Abilify) and medication for me (Effexor).  I also work out daily.  I make myself go.  My stress level dictates that and it helps.  Something else I noticed which helped when DD was being treated in a behavioral center for bulimia 2 months ago was family therapy.  We had 2 great therapists there and she has seemed the slightest, and when I say slightest, I mean noticable, but not in a big way, bit warmer.  I am going to ask her own therapist if this might be a good idea for all of us.  I will tell you too that her psychiatrist told us that there IS hope especially when this disorder is caught when they are in their teens or 20's!    to you!

[jellibeans]

sunshine

One thing that I thought of while reading your post is that I can remember when I was a teen I hated my mother so I think it is a very normal thing. I love my mom but I do remember feeling that way and it is hard for me to believe. I truly would do anything for my parents especially my mom. My parents are both in their 80's and I am thankful of every day that are on this earth. I tell you this because I like to think my dd and yours will feel the same way one day about us. We won't be hated... .   but loved... .   something I don't always feel from her right now but I have to believe it is there somewhere and that day will come.  

[sunshineplease]

I really appreciate all the responses. So many helpful ideas!

It helped, Mggt, to hear "don't take it personally." Even though I know that intellectually, I need to bring that understanding into my heart.

Vivek anada, just hearing the name of the book -- "Reality Slap" -- was very comforting. It's exactly what it feels like! And even though I'm doing everything you suggest, I liked the reminder, too. I realized I can deepen further in various understandings and practices. And I really appreciated the part about planning. It's exactly what I've been feeling hinky about (partly because DH and I are not 100% on the same page with the boundary thing). This "not knowing what might help DD" makes planning seem impossible; at the same time, it's liberating to see that not knowing as just another kind of uncertainty! Yes, I've read the Lundberg, and have found validating an amazing thing. Hard to validate someone who's not speaking with you, though! *Sigh.* What's really been great about that book, though, is that I realize how much I like validation myself, and I'm working to teach those around me what I like in terms of validation/listening.

BPDaddy, thanks for the commiseration. I'm sorry you're in the same boat. Good to hear I'm not the only one flapping in the breeze here, though!

Thanks for the empathy, BioAdoptM. Medication is counter-indicated for my daughter (body issues going back to her cancer make her crave an "external" source of healing and give her the excuse not to try to get better). Plus Prozac and Lexapro made her bleed vaginally. And Cymbalta precipitated the suicidality... .   I know it's a godsend for some people, and I'm glad for that. Unfortunately, I don't do well on medication, either. (I took Prilosec once and spent two days sitting on the living room floor crying. Weird, eh? It's likely a CYP2C19 genotype variant that runs in my family.) And I hear you on family therapy. It's been so great for my husband and me, and for the three of us when we can manage it. I appreciate the reminder and will push for a session when we go up to visit the RTC in a few weeks! And I really, really was happy for the prognosis positives from your psychiatrist!

And, yes, jellibeans, I think you are right. I never went through the hating-the-mom phase, so I tend to forget how common it is. I totally get she needs to detach from me for a myriad of reasons (my being her cancer caregiver not the least of it). I just didn't expect her to have to do it so cruelly. But you give me perspective to remember it's essential work for a teen.

Again, thanks all. I feel better today, and will keep at it!

[Kate4queen]

I just have to keep working at rebuilding those walls of my self esteem and my conviction that even though I love this adult son of mine, he is impossible to live with and he hates us with such venom that it makes me doubt myself and feel physically sick.

Every time he does this, I have to take a day or so to remember why he left, how he's tried to destroy me and my dh and why what he says is all about him and his fears and not actually about me. It still hurts but gradually, by reaffirming my right to be who I am and love myself, I get better and each time it gets a little easier.

[sunshineplease]

I just have to keep working at rebuilding those walls of my self esteem[quote/]

Another good one! Thanks, Kate4Q.

[louise 716]

Sunshine:

I'm looking for practical tips for grieving/mourning the pain of having my UDD18 treat me like s***.

My. My. My. How I can relate to your post. I think in your case it's a double whammy be/c of your daughter's age. That age is working so hard to find their way. In one sense for you, it might seem more hopeful: "When she grows up she won't be like this."  If she still lives with you, that makes it even harder. 

Ah yes, the hate.  Like a lot of families, I have photos of son around the house when he was younger. What happened to that kind, loving boy/young man?  In my case, son has combat PTSD and his uBPD/NPDw is shaping him. Originally, I was the recipient of nasty e mails from her, but over the last several years all the nasty/hateful texts or e mails come from him but we are convinced she is looking over his shoulder. Son decided to go NC with us until of course we can apologize for our most recent transgressions.

Funny that you wrote about seeing "your old daughter" in her eyes. We have seen that same look, albeit not real often but enough for a glimmer of hope, in our son's eyes - when he was speaking to us.  Such a tease.

To me, it's like going through the stages of grief.  First I cried a lot and now over the years I feel like I have finally moved on to the acceptance stage, with occasional set backs. But then I come on here to "regroup."  The way I figure it, a person can only take so much emotional abuse before they scream "uncle" and say enough is enough and are almost forced into moving on for their own sanity.

Like I told them and my other children a few years ago when there were problems: "I don't care who you are - family or friend. You either want me in your life or you don't." And I can't remember if I followed it up with this additional thought: "There are plenty of people who honestly DO want me in my their life. I don't need to beg to be in someone's life who doesn't want me in theirs."  The "I'm mad at you ... .   I won't talk to you until you apologize" time and time again, year in and year out, is waaaay to stressful.  Just when you think the relationship MIGHT be going in a good direction "something" happens and they demand ANOTHER apology. I am a strong woman, but can only take so much.

Over the last 5+ years we have gotten numerous nasty e mails from him/them. At first I would cry and cry and panic ... .   "I've got to write something back." I felt/still feel like those plastic blow up punching clowns that bounce back up when you punch them.  Nasty email (clown down), I regroup and respond however it felt appropriate. Clown back up.  Months pass, nasty email arrives ... .   clown goes down again.  But this time when it comes back up ... .   it doesn't come back up as far ... .   I built a layer of protection around myself.  And so it goes. Each time another emotional layer was built. Not unlike the onion analogy, but in reverse.  This last time (January) was the latest nasty email and I didn't even respond. Reading it really hit home the fact that I feel like I have totally lost my son.

Part of the thing that makes it "easier" for me to not respond is because his latest e mail seemed to have more anger in it directed specifically at me and while it was NOT directly threatening, there is enough anger in it to make me very cautious.  I feel like I have to be okay with this. Like my husband says ":)on't shake a stick at a mad dog."

I don't know about you, but something else I have struggled with is bitterness.  Feeling bitter towards families who DON'T have to deal with kind of garbage on a regular basis. Bitter towards parents who DON'T have kids who hate them. I *think* I've worked through that with mostly the passage of time and the understanding *I* didn't do anything to cause this.

But it hurts.

I know it does. And it really sucks. 

I'm completely clear that this is how BPD works. I know none of this is really about me, that I need to let go and accept. I understand her need to separate. I understand this is her journey. I understand the future is one big question mark. I'm doing Al-Anon and NAMI Family-to-Family and family therapy and energy work. I'm getting out and seeing friends. I'm exercising and doing things to nurture me (going outside, meditating).

I know. We can know how BPD works - that it's not about us. It's about them.  But it still sucks. I am glad you are going to Al-Anon and NAMI.  I personally, do not do that but I have read on here, these groups are an invaluable resource to many. DH and I did go to a counselor for a few times just to get a handle on this and to have someone completely objective tell us we weren't off base. I took the latest e mail son had sent us. Watching her facial expression as she read it was great validation DH and I are on the right track with our thinking it's not about us, it's about them.

Nurturing yourself: GOOD JOB!  Keep that up. It makes us feel good about ourselves but it is good for us physically.  Plus, when you are exercising, meditating etc. you are limiting your exposure to your daughter.

It still hurts.

I know it does.   

Your daughter is still very young. You no doubt will have to learn a lot about setting clear boundaries to protect yourself.

And then with the clear boundaries in place, time helps.

So, for those of you whose children feel the need to lash out aggressively (or passive-aggressively), what helps?

I have seen instances where I've felt son was trying to split DH and I. Serious talks with DH have helped with that. And the understanding that in our case, I know they feel no wife is good enough for a man, except of course, son's uBPDw.  She is, of course, the perfect wife. 

With the latest barrage of texts/email back several months ago, I didn't respond.  I am sure they didn't like that, but then they didn't have any fuel to fire something back to me/us.

Hopefully something I have written helps you.

It is so sad to see soo many people and families effected by these types of mental health issues.

[sunshineplease]

Louise716, it was just as if you were sitting here with me as I read your post. Like talking to a longtime friend over a cup of tea. I felt so heard and understood. I am filled with gratitude.

Everything you said resonated. I especially love the concept of time being my friend, giving me a chance to learn and clarify my boundaries. Integrity leads to health, peace.

Thank you, dear friend.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[louise 716]

Sunshine,

So glad you feel my note has helped.

[pessim-optimist]

I find it helpful if we are able to maintain our own separate reality with people that like us value us and appreciate us, and we them.

Our sense of value and self-confidence has to mainly come from within us, but we also need validating environment for our mental health.

It always hurts when my h and I are attacked, devalued, maligned and slandered. But if we can keep it in perspective that it is the illness talking, it is easier to get over it.

I find it much harder to cope with the triangulating (getting people to side with her) and the 'distortion campaigns' that my sd32 starts every time she is upset with anyone. She has a real talent to destroy other people's reputation while making it impossible for the attacked person to set the record straight (any defense would usually make the person look somewhat guilty). What amazes me is that even some family members see it for what it is when it's being done to them, but then they still believe her stories she spreads about others... .    

[sunshineplease]

I find it much harder to cope with the triangulating (getting people to side with her) and the 'distortion campaigns' that my sd32 starts every time she is upset with anyone. She has a real talent to destroy other people's reputation while making it impossible for the attacked person to set the record straight (any defense would usually make the person look somewhat guilty).

Nowhere is this more difficult than with therapists! My daughter has snowed most of them, and is presently attempting to snow the RTC T -- doing "just enough" work to please the T, but at the same time avoiding anything she doesn't feel like dealing with. She's a master at lying by omission, and telling people what they want to hear. In every case there's that tiny seed of truth that makes what she's saying believable. And she's a damn fine actress.

At first I thought it was my job to keep the story real: Tell the therapists the truth about her hidden behaviors and her lies. Two problems with that... .   the first is that it puts me under the microscope with the T, trying to prove to her that I'm not lying or being defensive. Very exhausting and frustrating. But even more important: Letting DD make her mistakes includes the mistake of dancing with her therapists. It's just another level of letting go for me.

Ugh... .   this stinks.  

[vivekananda]

Letting DD make her mistakes includes the mistake of dancing with her therapists. It's just another level of letting go for me.

Ugh... .   this stinks.  

yep, I agree.

Viv   

[pessim-optimist]

... .  Nowhere is this more difficult than with therapists!... .  

At first I thought it was my job to keep the story real: Tell the therapists the truth about her hidden behaviors and her lies. Two problems with that... .    the first is that it puts me under the microscope with the T, trying to prove to her that I'm not lying or being defensive. Very exhausting and frustrating. But even more important: Letting DD make her mistakes includes the mistake of dancing with her therapists. It's just another level of letting go for me.

Ugh... .    this stinks.  

Isn't it infuriating to be in this no-win situation, to KNOW that if you do anything to set the record straight, you will look suspicious, and if you don't, you will too?   

Yeah, another level of letting go, I also go through cycles of letting go, or more accurately - 'peeling the onion' when the right time comes, I peel another layer off, go deeper. And every time, it feels SO liberating!

[nickyg]

I used to go to work crying after having my ud23 abuse me prior so I know how it feels.  It really takes me down and saps my energy.

More recently, probably since I got on this site, which is only a few weeks, I have been able to let the words flow over top of me so to speak, rather than taking them on.  It's such a revelation to me.  Sometimes I even catch myself laughing on the inside at some of the ridiculous stuff she comes out with.  It has really helped me to get more information about the illness and realise it's not something I'm doing because sometimes I start believing the allegations and think I am a '~' mother!  It's not true, we wouldn't be on here if we didn't care.  We are all doing our best.   

[louise 716]

"let the words flow over top of me so to speak" - just like water flows off a duck.

[sunshineplease]

Quack! :-)

[qcarolr]

My DD26 has stopped calling me mom the past couple weeks. She now uses a very sarcastic speaking of my first name. She has been so abusive the past 6 weeks or so. I have lost track of time. It is so hard to get all this vile hateful behavior poured over me. And I also know she is not letting go of me - she is demanding that I be her advocate as she spews threats at me    

I paid for 3 days in a motel during the current winter storm and told her she cannot come back to the house, talked with her mental health case manager, and texted her to go talk to him and housing counselor tomorrow.

Talked to police dept about need to do formal eviction to keep her out of our house. Sad that he remember the last time he personally was in my basement dealing with DD in a 'belligerent state" was how he put it. And he remembers "her sweet little girl". So very sad. Yet supportive for me too. I know this is DD's disease working her - she is under a heavy burden of stress from many directions. I want to hold her, rock her, tell her she will be OK --- if she would only reach out for the help in the community that is waiting for her.

I am unable to advocate for her when she is targeting me as her enemy, even as she is reaching to not let me go. Such craziness.

qcr  

[pessim-optimist]

Oh, qcr... .        

It's the "I hate you, don't leave me!" Isn't it?   

My brother did that to my mom (calling her by her first name) when he was at his worst, before n/c. It is something SO PERSONAL, as if they are saying: "you are not my mom any more" and "I know I can hurt you by this"... .  I am so sorry you are going through this. Is it going to make you feel better if I tell you a lot of people here probably think you deserve a mom award? (I definitely think so! You have done so much for your dd! NO ONE in the whole world would be doing this were it not for you and your dh! She does not realize it, but WE DO.   )

Would it be a viable option try to positively reinforce when she calls you mom again and use 'medium chill' in the meantime when she calls you by your first name? (You might be already doing it and I might be just re-inventing the wheel here... .  )

Sending you another   

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[qcarolr]

The name thing is a sign of her detachment, or lack of attachment, to me. She singled dh out for this when she was school age, 6-7. Testing when she was age 6 and in psych hospital for aggression showed absolutely NO MALE FIGURES in her drawings or interpretations of images. The staff social worker suggested for us to relinquish her to social services due to these attachment issues. Then it was never brought up again by any professional.

I have been reading on parenting to do better with my gd7, and see a lot of attachment issues for both of my girls. And see how differently that have been created, expressed, and the response that is needed. Don't know if I had the knowledge I do now of attachment theory and treatments... .  no turning back the clock for DD.

I have also noticed references to attachment in the articles about schema therapy for BPD. I am hopeful this will become more integrated in the community mental health environments that area all that is available to many of our adult BPDkids. Wonder how I can advocate for this in some way?

I am feeling more grounded tonight. dh support has really been great today. He even has answered my phone call at work today. He wants me to be safe. Reading and sharing here is such a balm for my soul. And some other things I did for myself today.

qcr  

[vivekananda]

dh support has really been great today. He even has answered my phone call at work today. He wants me to be safe.

so good to hear this. They may not be perfect but when they are there for us, we can stand strong in the storm eh?

Cheers,

Vivek    

[Kate4queen]

In the last 6 months since my 21 yr old BPD son walked out I've gone from Mommy, to Mom to Mother and then 'your wife' when he last emailed his father.

Ouch.

He can't deal with what he said to me, can't apologize for destroying our relationship at it's most fundamental level and thus has to distance himself from me and make me a non person. It's sad.

[jellibeans]

oh my kate4queen... .  so sad... .  in time he will see his error... .  try to forgive him... .  he is not well.

[sunshineplease]

I like the "stand strong in the storm" analogy from Vivek ananda. I'm working on developing really good rain gear!

[rehtom]

Dear Sunshine

 My heart goes out to you! I am currently dealing with the same thing with my dd30 and I find myself obsessing and trying to figure out why and what happened? But the good thing is that we are not alone. I was amazed that there are so many parents hurting with this disease that has affected our children. I am new to this site and I still learning to get around the site. I don't know how to deal with the hate either but I think we can trust that with the experience and advice of the incredible people that care on this site that somehow they are going to at least listen and support but more importantly we are not alone. Please keep in touch and know there is hope, I am counting on it.  Maybe we can share our journey together and let each other know if we find something that helps.



rehtom

[pessim-optimist]

hi rehtom!

welcome here!

it's actually a cool name - BPD makes things backwards all the time, doesn't it?   

(But you can change it if you want)

[vivekananda]

OMG - now I get it! And I thought it was Tom trying to disguise his name... .  some weird word recipe... .  

rehtom you had me fooled   (doesn't take much eh?)

Viv   

[sunshineplease]

Thanks, Mom-Rehtom. I didn't get it, either!