New dilemma - surprised (I had no idea I felt this way)

[pessim-optimist]

Update on our situation:

My usd32 was n/c for most of the last year, interspersed with several hateful e-mails attacking her dad.

Her dad kept replying to the tune of: 'I know your life has been hard and full of trauma' 'I'm open to r/s with mutual respect & no attacks'.

At one point about in the middle of the process, I decided to send her an e-mail describing her behavior in a mocking manner to express to her that even though she was taking herself and her drama dead-serious, we were not taking her made-up stories and accusations seriously. I was hoping to break the down-ward spiral.

Now, looking back at it, I am not sure if it got worse or better, but it may have been a factor that changed her tactic: she accused us of getting ready to leave the country w/o saying goodbye to the grandkids. To that my h replied: 'we're not going anywhere, pls tell the kids that'. And again: 'open to r/s w mutual respect & no attacks'

Then, our oldest gs had a b-day, we sent and e-mail to both his parents wishing a happy b-day.

About a month after that we got message on our phone (at 6am) from usd32 that she had had a serious medical emergency few days before and 'like, I almost died'. Her dad tried to call back, and found out his number was still blocked    E-mailed back and forth, come to find out it wasn't as serious (I suspected that). But it got them communicating again. Now they've been talking on the phone more and more often. I am still completely out of the loop (did not have to talk to her yet).

Now, my dilemma:

I really don't want to talk to her! (I was genuinely surprised to find out I feel this way).

I realized that I want her to know that she did a lot of damage to the relationship and that a lot is lost and that I don't trust her, and that I don't know how much we will be able to rebuild.

I do not expect her to apologize, but without expressing to her what I just wrote above, I think I cannot be genuine with her, and would be building anger and resentment... .  

Does anyone have experience with saying something like this to a loved one?

What were their reactions?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[sunshineplease]

Hey, pessim-optimist, I can so relate. My daughter is n/c now, but trying really hard to poke at us passive-aggressively (through upsetting tweets and FB posts). Her RTC therapist has requested she contact us, and I've found the same thing: I'm not looking forward to talking to her!

Kids with BPD really try to push our buttons. Nothing we can do about that other than to stay "in one's own space" when one is triggered/emotional, and not engage if that's what feels true and honest. I've realized I want to honor my feelings and needs, and that each day -- heck, each moment -- is different.

The "I'm open to r/s with mutual respect and with no attacks" approach sure makes sense to me. Structure around communication is sometimes the only way we can talk to our kids! (Writing makes it that much easier for me -- I have plenty of time to consider before I "speak."

I think we all have experience saying things like you did to your daughter. At my house, we've cycled through brutal honesty, sarcasm, anger, tearful fear, and g-d only knows what else. When I think back on those attempts at connection, though, I realize they're borne of my desperation just to get through -- maybe to shock DD into reality! But while they may open a small window into my child's self-understanding, they typically backfire in the long run, because they serve to undermine love and trust between us. They give her yet another reason to think, "my mom doesn't understand,"  or "my dad thinks I'm terrible." Her anger at us prevents her from fully internalizing the "truths" I so desperately want her to see. So they are, in therapeutic terms, a distraction.

Communicating indirectly, or with an edge, also models behavior that is way too close to the tactics DD uses most of the time. For that reason, I'm determined to validate as much as I can. But sometimes I can't, and that's a good time for ME to be temporarily n/c!

Last night I was lying in bed, processing my hurt and fear and sadness, and I decided to visualize two paths: Mine and my daughter's. I see places where those paths have intersected in the past, and places where they may in the future. I also see that she takes many detours on her path -- in fact, she may decide one of those detours is the path she's chosen. But I'm going to stay on mine. I'm going to talk to her when doing so meets my needs for contribution or connection or understanding or ease.

[qcarolr]

pessio - seems like a simple revelation -- but an important one. How do you see this impacting you r/s with both your dh and your sd? If she chooses to reach out to you for communication?

If my BPDDD26 could have a place to live other than our home, I think my life would be so much more manageable. Yet that is also complicated by our having custody of gd7. This keeps DD very tied to be in very close proximity. I have been more distant from her in our home, and am able to remain quiet when she shoots her little darts my way. And then she is doing better for now. Don't know if this is due to my very direct talk with her a few days ago, or just an upswing in her emotional cycle. Most likely has little to do with me. Why is this so hard for me to acknowledge? The drive as parents is so strong to keep connected.

It is such a delicate balance. So the focus on finding our own path, and letting our adult child weave their own seperate from us has so much value for me. I am trying to do this with DD stepping on my toes as her path criss-crosses mine. Geez, my toes hurt.

My dh may be inheriting some funds within the next year or so, sadly his mom is in the final phase of Alzhiemers. We still contemplate purchasing something that DD could rent from us so she can live her life however she wants without it having such an impact on ours. of course, this would only mean real money if she gets her SSI that is in appeal. Maybe this would lead to a more peaceful retirement, even if a simpler one (and things are pretty darn simple already  ) Then we can get gd into a healthier pattern as well as better managing the routines around homework and bedtime. This is the time of day when DD has always come awake and wants to engage with me. THis is when I am tired and less able to be in a validating place with her -- or really available at all trying to get gd on task.

qcr  

[pessim-optimist]

Sunshine,

thank you for sharing, your present situation - SO frustrating! To be 'spoken at' and projected at with no real way to address anything would sure make one upset. And it also complicates the next real conversation - because your dd is stirring unpleasant emotions in you that you have to deal with and get over... .  

I liked the picture of the two paths and I agree. Sometimes I feel like my sd32 takes off on her own rabbit trail, and when she runs into a wall, she starts chasing our path for a while (and right now, I am wanting to stir our path way away and hide all the signposts  ))

I haven't sent to her or told her what I have written yet, but I feel a need to do so. For myself. So I am able to be authentic with her.

Don't know how to do that or what exactly to say to her (I wrote in my first post how I honestly feel, not sure if it is a good idea to be this direct with a pwBPD)

qcr,

yep, it was a simple revelation, but it was shocking to find out that I have been educating myself for a year and posting here for a while, getting ready to re-engage and now - I discover this obstacle in myself that I did not know existed... .  

It will necessarily have an impact:

On me and my h - it will put a pressure on us to stay united even if we have a different communication level with sd.

I know she will reach out sooner or later, because she will want to visit or she will want her father to visit (and she might wonder if it would involve me or not).

I do want to eventually get back into r/s, but not before I am able to express myself to her (and that might be problematic for several different reasons). If it goes badly, it might sever the new communication that she and her dad recently established, or she might try to drive a wedge between me and my h. And if I decide to go softly on her (because of the above risks), I might still feel like I am being phony and be angry and resentful, and that would be causing trouble down the road in my attitude toward her (been there, done that, DO NOT want to do that again)... .  

Those toes, I know they must hurt! Sending you a virtual pair of steel-toed boots!   But it sounds from your other posts things are calming down a bit for the time being. That's GOOD. 

[lbjnltx]

Dear pessi,

I think we can all identify with the feelings of anger and resentment from being verbally abused, lied to and lied about.

I can only speak from my own perspective and my personal journey that led me from anger to freedom.

The first thing I did was identify the underlying emotions that caused me to feel angry.  For me it was truly fear.  Fear that my d would always be this way, fear that she would get even worse, fear that my life would forever be filled with sorrow and suffering because my d was so ill.  My anger at being her victim was keeping me stuck in misery.  I made the decision to no longer be a victim... .   I just don't do victim!

I took back control over my own thoughts feeling and emotions through boundaries.  When I had regained control over my life I created some free space to learn the skills we teach here to "stop making it worse", validation, asking validating questions, mindfulness and radical acceptance.

I made a deliberate and conscious choice to let go of the past in order to create a future that looked different.  I asked myself this question:

Is holding on to the past and the pain going to get me the results I long for? 

The answer was simply "no". 

The next question:

What do I need to do to create free space (no fear, no resentment, no anger) so that myself and my daughter can go forward?

The answer is "forgiveness".

When I forgave all the wrongs, all the hurt she caused me, all the mistakes I made in not knowing how to respond to her in the most helpful way I freed us from the past.  The road ahead, the skills needed for us both would be hard to learn, practice and make our own.  The task of making the past right would only stop forward progress.

So I ask you pessi, what is more important the past or the present and future?

Which one do you want to invest your time, energy, emotions in?

[sunshineplease]

What do I need to do to create free space (no fear, no resentment, no anger) so that myself and my daughter can go forward?

The answer is "forgiveness".

When I forgave all the wrongs, all the hurt she caused me, all the mistakes I made in not knowing how to respond to her in the most helpful way I freed us from the past.  The road ahead, the skills needed for us both would be hard to learn, practice and make our own.  The task of making the past right would only stop forward progress.

I've never really thought of calling it "forgiveness" before. That's a really useful way to look at it. Saying "I don't really have the luxury of beating myself up over the past" just doesn't have the same positive vibe!

Thanks, lbj... .  

[pessim-optimist]

Thank you lbj,

Thought provoking.   

Definitely want to move forward, no desire investing into the past (besides analyzing it and learning from it).

Yes, anger (a sign that something needs to change) - don't want a repeat of the past. Fear? Maybe - need to process what about... .  

... .   I made a deliberate and conscious choice to let go of the past in order to create a future that looked different... .    

I think that is a good workable description of what I do when it's not probable that the other person will realize that they have done something wrong... .  

I think posting this thread has made my emotions settle a bit. So, THANK YOU GUYS FOR LISTENING!

Now I feel like I just want her to know our r/s IS now different (no need to make her feel bad about it).

I don't want her to think and expect things will be the same as before though, and then flip out. She will know things are different when I use my new skills (mainly validation and boundaries) and it won't always be comfortable for either of us.

So, is there a way to communicate that (what/how do I tell her when we talk), or is it better for them to be all surprised at the changes as they come?

[qcarolr]

So, is there a way to communicate that (what/how do I tell her when we talk), or is it better for them to be all surprised at the changes as they come?

Sometimes, with DD26, responding in a new way opens a path to having the conversation. It is much harder for me this way - patience can be hard as I often lose my words. So need to write down what I desire to say, put it in my purse or pocket, then I often can remember when the time comes. It is so important to look for the 'teaching moment' to have a dialogue about new boundaries. If it cannot be a dialogue, then it may create a greater backlash - extinction burst. I mostly expect this - maybe that attitude sets me up for failure.

qcr  

[heronbird]

Thats one of the biggest problems we have and people have when they love someone with this horrid illness.

I found a bit of relief when I felt that I genuinely didnt want to speak to my dd.

I realised that this was not going to help so I found ways to get on with her better and now we do not have conflict.

I think its key to understand what they are saying when they make personal attacks on us. Its just how they feel, its not a fact. I also find the next day they will say the opposite. It so reminds me of a 2 year old.

If a 2 year old screams at you "I hate you, go away" do we walk away and take it literally that they hate us?

[pessim-optimist]

... .  It is much harder for me this way... .  

It is so important to look for the 'teaching moment' ... .  If it cannot be a dialogue, then it may create a greater backlash - extinction burst. I mostly expect this - maybe that attitude sets me up for failure.

qcr  

Yep, that's what I'm currently worried about. Would you say that the first conversation with her would NOT be a teaching moment?

If a 2 year old screams at you "I hate you, go away" do we walk away and take it literally that they hate us?

I hear ya. With the 2 year olds it's so much easier though, because we control their environment, and they do not have the physical, verbal & legal capacities of our grown up 'toddlers'. I know, that's exactly what you're saying - that's the nature of BPD.

Thank you heronbird, it always helps to remind myself of the state of emotional immaturity that they are stuck in. It must be so hard for them, to feel as powerless and clueless as a 2 year old.

So, what would you say helped you most in achieving peace with her? Was it the classical combo of validation and boundaries, or something more?

[heronbird]

Yep, thats right, give me a toddler any day, no problem.

Hows things going now?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[pessim-optimist]

Well, so far so good,

She keeps calling my husband and their r/s seems to be pretty much on track.

She has not asked to talk to me yet, which is fine with me. Gives me more time to get ready for it.

I am assuming she will try to avoid me as long as she does not need something or until she starts thinking of visiting. Then she will want to talk to me to get a feeling for whether enough time has passed and everything has blown over (at least that was always her MO in the past).

And that's probably why I was thinking of saying something to let her know: 'hey girl, things will be different now!' But that will become self-evident as time goes on. So now I am pondering whether to 'have a talk with her' on that topic at all or not... .  

Still mulling over lbj's question about possible fear underlying the anger: I think that it is several things. Fear whether our skills will be sufficient to keep our lives peaceful (in spite of all the grief, I really liked the break we got this last year). Fear whether we (my husband and I) will be able to stay on the same page regarding our approach to our ud32 (my usd32). And whether the possible lack of skills/lack of unity will not result in a repeat of what we have been experiencing in the past (I don't want that, but I am only one out of at least 4 adults in the mix, and there are only 2 of us, who even know about BPD.). Fear that our ud32 will not get better in spite of all the energy we might invest into learning new approaches and skills, and fear that our grandkids will be forever affected.