She gets so mad when she gets a consequence

[Parents! Get help here!]

We have seen this behavior since she was very little.  She would do something and I would say ok we are not going to do... .   (park, mcdonalds, etc... .   ) and she would get so mad and call me a liar because I had said that we were going to do whatever.  Then she would get a consequence for calling me a liar.  She would still be really mad, but she was silently angry.

In her early teenage years.  She never seemed to learn from a consequence.  She was still silently angry but I sure did see some foreshadowing of where we are now. 

Here are some prime examples:

We had our credit card put in I-tunes.  The kids always asked before they downloaded a song and everything was fine.  Just after this past Christmas (probably dec 27 or so) I went to the store and my debit card was declined.  I thought hmmm... . thought I had plenty of money in my account.  I had a guest (my cousin whom I love dearly had come to visit) so I was a little distracted and didn't really look at the account to see what was going on, I just put more money in it and went on about my day.  The next day I checked to see what was going on and discovered dd15 had bought just over $200 worth of game credits (you spend cash money to get game money).  I did not want it to be a big deal since my cousin was there.  So I quietly told her I knew about it and that she needed to repay the money and we were taking her ipod for 2 weeks while we figure out how to take the card off.  Soon after, I left with my cousin to go to the store. By the time I got back she had written a suicide note stating what a horrible person I was and that she was going to drink bleach and how I was going to find her.  We took her to the hospital and she was admitted.  She spent 10 days there ranting at everyone (me in particular) and then they sent her home.  I was like... .   noo... .   why are you sending her back home... .  

She continued ranting and acting out of control until the two weeks were up (it was actually much longer than two weeks because she kept finding old ipods and we kept catching her with them until we had them all locked in the safe) and we returned her Ipod.  She kept stating that since she had to pay the money back (it took her 3 months or so) she shouldn't have to have another consequence.  There was no way we could reason with her and have her understand or agree that she stole from us and that does deserve a consequence.

One time, I don't remember the situation, but she had gotten a consequence and when we went to bed, there was shampoo or body wash (or both) all over our bed.

OK, so flash forward to last night.  ddNow16 has been in an ongoing feud with one of her housemates.  A couple of days ago DD had dumped quite a bit of water on the girls bed (sound familiar?  I know it set off memories of having to wash and make my bed at midnight) and got a pretty serious consequence.  She called me ranting about how she was going to kill this girl.  I got her calmed down.  Spoke to staff etc etc.  Yesterday the girl found out it was dd who had dumped the water on her bed and went after dd.  After that dd went downstairs and was making faces at the girl and got another consequence.  I got another call from dd that she was going to kill somebody.  We had a conference with staff and got the whole story.  DD repeatedly used bad language and I told her one more time and I'm off the phone... .   well 3 sentences later I was off the phone. 

I'm sure you all have some doozies too.  The question is... .   how do you all handle it?  I know some of you have opted for "natural consequences".  That has never made any sense to me.  There are way too many actions that don't have natural consequences and due to her age most of her natural consequences would have a big impact on me.

[crazedncrazymom]

We have seen this behavior since she was very little.  She would do something and I would say ok we are not going to do... .   (park, mcdonalds, etc... .   ) and she would get so mad and call me a liar because I had said that we were going to do whatever.  Then she would get a consequence for calling me a liar.  She would still be really mad, but she was silently angry.

In her early teenage years.  She never seemed to learn from a consequence.  She was still silently angry but I sure did see some foreshadowing of where we are now. 

Here are some prime examples:

We had our credit card put in I-tunes.  The kids always asked before they downloaded a song and everything was fine.  Just after this past Christmas (probably dec 27 or so) I went to the store and my debit card was declined.  I thought hmmm... . thought I had plenty of money in my account.  I had a guest (my cousin whom I love dearly had come to visit) so I was a little distracted and didn't really look at the account to see what was going on, I just put more money in it and went on about my day.  The next day I checked to see what was going on and discovered dd15 had bought just over $200 worth of game credits (you spend cash money to get game money).  I did not want it to be a big deal since my cousin was there.  So I quietly told her I knew about it and that she needed to repay the money and we were taking her ipod for 2 weeks while we figure out how to take the card off.  Soon after, I left with my cousin to go to the store. By the time I got back she had written a suicide note stating what a horrible person I was and that she was going to drink bleach and how I was going to find her.  We took her to the hospital and she was admitted.  She spent 10 days there ranting at everyone (me in particular) and then they sent her home.  I was like... .   noo... .   why are you sending her back home... .  

She continued ranting and acting out of control until the two weeks were up (it was actually much longer than two weeks because she kept finding old ipods and we kept catching her with them until we had them all locked in the safe) and we returned her Ipod.  She kept stating that since she had to pay the money back (it took her 3 months or so) she shouldn't have to have another consequence.  There was no way we could reason with her and have her understand or agree that she stole from us and that does deserve a consequence.

One time, I don't remember the situation, but she had gotten a consequence and when we went to bed, there was shampoo or body wash (or both) all over our bed.

OK, so flash forward to last night.  ddNow16 has been in an ongoing feud with one of her housemates.  A couple of days ago DD had dumped quite a bit of water on the girls bed (sound familiar?  I know it set off memories of having to wash and make my bed at midnight) and got a pretty serious consequence.  She called me ranting about how she was going to kill this girl.  I got her calmed down.  Spoke to staff etc etc.  Yesterday the girl found out it was dd who had dumped the water on her bed and went after dd.  After that dd went downstairs and was making faces at the girl and got another consequence.  I got another call from dd that she was going to kill somebody.  We had a conference with staff and got the whole story.  DD repeatedly used bad language and I told her one more time and I'm off the phone... .   well 3 sentences later I was off the phone. 

I'm sure you all have some doozies too.  The question is... .   how do you all handle it?  I know some of you have opted for "natural consequences".  That has never made any sense to me.  There are way too many actions that don't have natural consequences and due to her age most of her natural consequences would have a big impact on me.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[lbjnltx]

Hello crazedandcrazymom,

Natural consequences is a good topic for discussion.  It seems so often that pwBPD don't learn from these consequences, that organized authorities don't enforce their own consequences (legal) and that we the parents are the one's who seem to suffer from them the  most.

Are these reasons not to allow them to come anyway?

As a parent, we do sometimes suffer from the consequences much more than the pwBPD.  Isn't that part of our job description for our minor children in certain situations though?  For example, if our child is suspended from school doesn't that have an affect on us/the whole family?... .   supervision at home, make up work, altering our schedules... .   etc... .   ?

How can we move from the role of a "sufferer" to "teacher/supporter"?  Is our emotional state the key?

What do you think?

Here is a link to an overall guide from which to base our decisions regarding our children w/BPD:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/support-child-therapy

[twojaybirds]

I have found that allowing natural consequences to happen eleviates me from being the one to figure it out - implement it - struggle with it etc. 

If they do not learn from consequences, natural or imposed, why expell your energy?  I am much more calm and focused on what I need when I am not trying to work out some one elses' lessons.

[jellibeans]

crazed

your dd sounds so much like my dd15 soon to be 16... .   your last posts really hit home for me too about her coming home and trying to hurt herself. My dd might come home this coming weekend and your post really had be thinking which is good. I have to keep reminding myself how good they are at hiding their feelings and actions.

I am not sure why you are involved with her behavior at her new RTC... .   I am not sure I am understanding the issue with that. My dd loses privileges ... .   they have a card system and she needs to behave a certain way to get points etc... .   When my dd complains to me about not recieving things I say it is out of my hands... .   she needs to talk with the unit director or make out a request. If she calls me and starts swearing I tell her I am not going to continue the conversation. After she ran away a couple of weeks ago I didn't talk to her for almost a week because she was being verbally abusive.

Your dd dumped water on this other girls bed... .   well there are consequences to her actions... .   she is now living with someone she has pissed off. Living together with someone doesn't allow her to escape what she did... .   she now has to figure out how to make this right. I am sure she did this with friend and people at school but never learned how to repair and mend the friendships... .   she is going to learn that skill now.

My dd also never really understood the consequences either but I think at times I piled them on which was wrong... .   She would do something and lose a priviledge but instead of adjusting her behavior it actually made her more out of control so then I would take something else away and hope that would bring her down... .   this just never worked and in the end she was just beside herself. I was reading in the Valerie Porr book that this is not the right approach... .   I think it is hard when they are so out of control but if at all possible we need not to over punish... .   this is easier said than done. If you can find the natural consequence then great... .   We are working on a list of family values for our home... .   being respectful to one's self, home and family members. I think this is a good place to start... .   trying to commit suicide is not being respectful to one's self... .   swearing at parents is not being respectful and making holes in the walls is not respectful to our home... .   I think this is very important to come up with a list like this.

I wish I knew how to get through to pwBPD... .   my dd has a hard time discussing a lot of issues... .   at out meetings she crys a lot and see that she is just lost... .   she really doesn't know what to do... .   I tell her I know she is trying and I am proud of her... .   know it is hard living there and I know it can be stressful... .   try to be suppotive and understanding... .   but at the same time I don'tplay her games... .   If I feel she is not being honest or foreright then I point that out.

Our family sessions are full of crying and sometimes arguing but then we are able to see the patterns that are wrong within our  family and try to fix them by simply recognizing things need to change. Our approach needs to change. How is your family therapy doing?

I hope things get better for you... .   I feel it is going to take some time with my dd... .   she is still playing games at times and not being honest. I would really step back and let the RTC handle the consequences... .   Why is she allowed to call you repeatedly? Maybe you need to set a boundary with that? Sending ahug your way... .   I feel your pain... .    

[crazedncrazymom]

Wow, you all have given me a lot to think about.

LBJ, I'm going to start with you (since you posted first and all)  I've been thinking a lot about the question you asked ... .   Isn't it part of our job description to be inconvenienced by the consequences of their behavior (sorry for the paraphrasing).  It does sound like a yes and no answer.  For instance, if my daughter gets suspended and I have to arrange supervision for her, that is my job as a parent but it shouldn't be my job because she shouldn't be getting herself suspended.  So the consequence for me is I have to call out from work, possibly get myself in trouble or fired.  The consequence for her is... .   she doesn't have to go to school?

And that's where natural consequences loses me.

She comes into my room and steals money or credit cards from my purse.  The natural consequence for me is that I don't have the money she stole.  The natural consequence for her is that she gets to spend my money, but loses my trust, which she doesn't have anymore anyway.

Am I missing something here?  I'd really love to understand it better if I am.

Twojay,

I feel like it's my job to figure it out, implement it and struggle with it.   For instance, my daughter went online and pretended to be a boy and got herself a girlfriend (who self injured and was suicidal).  I took the computer away from her.  She has screamed and ranted and threatened many times that when she comes home she wlll break all the computers.  However, I am still not going to let her use it.  Would the proper thing to do be to wait for her to break this girls heart (so she could possibly injure herself or commit suicide), have the police show up at our home and become national news?  Talk about some disastrous natural consequences for the whole family.

jellibeans,

I know.  My heart goes out to you. I've read so many of your posts.  I know we are in the same position.  I can say that I have seen some small positive changes from dd so far.  She no longer calls to tell me how much she hates me or to curse at me.  I simply get off the phone.  Ok honey, you call when you can speak to me properly.  Bye Bye.

I'm not sure how I got dragged into this mess... .   wait I just remembered how it was started... .   long story, but at this point I do believe my involvement is warranted.  There have been too many threats by this other girl against my dd.  It's extremely concerning.  DD is not an angel in that mess, but the other girl may end up hurting her.  I am supporting the consequences dd is given.   If she doesn't like the consequences stop doing the actions that cause them.  For the most part tho, I do try to avoid talking to staff.

Family sessions have not been helpful.  We've been in family counseling for just over a year now.  Either dd is refusing to participate, storming out of session or nodding along and agreeing without meaning it.  Nothing has been resolved.  My own counseling sessions have been much more helpful.  I feel much stronger than I have in quite some time.    DD has been out of our home for almost 9 months now.  I have seen a very small improvement but most times, it really does seem hopeless.

[lbjnltx]

Wow, you all have given me a lot to think about.

LBJ, I'm going to start with you (since you posted first and all)  I've been thinking a lot about the question you asked ... .   Isn't it part of our job description to be inconvenienced by the consequences of their behavior (sorry for the paraphrasing).  It does sound like a yes and no answer.  For instance, if my daughter gets suspended and I have to arrange supervision for her, that is my job as a parent but it shouldn't be my job because she shouldn't be getting herself suspended.  So the consequence for me is I have to call out from work, possibly get myself in trouble or fired.  The consequence for her is... .   she doesn't have to go to school?

And that's where natural consequences loses me.

This is exactly what I mean when I say "It seems so often that pwBPD don't learn from these consequences, that organized authorities don't enforce their own consequences (legal) and that we the parents are the one's who seem to suffer from them the  most."

Let's say that the suspension is for 1 day.  She goes back to school and comes home w/make up work to do.  Now the responsibility as her parent lies with you to enforce your rules... .   no privileges without earning them... .   it's her responsibility to do the makeup work to earn the priviliege of going to a friends' party.

There are lots of ways the school could have held her accountable without putting it off on you... .   and they don't.  Is the school going to change how they do things ... .   NO.  Radical acceptance.  Does this make logical sense? NO. Radical acceptance. She is not their child to raise nor their legal responsibility. She is yours and you will make the best decisions regarding her discipline and life lessons that you know how. 

It's about accountability, not punishment.  To discipline means to teach so what lesson do you want her to learn? 

She comes into my room and steals money or credit cards from my purse.  The natural consequence for me is that I don't have the money she stole.  The natural consequence for her is that she gets to spend my money, but loses my trust, which she doesn't have anymore anyway.

Am I missing something here?  I'd really love to understand it better if I am.

Where is the accountability in the consequences you describe?  Wouldn't the natural consequence be that she makes restitution?  or that she is reported to the authorities for credit card fraud?  If you don't report her aren't you protecting her from the law of our land/consequences?  Would reporting her hurt you too?  Yes.  Here is the dilemna.  Many times we don't enforce the consequences because we don't want to suffer the pain along side our children.

Is it fair to be in this position? No.  The question is what are you willing to do to help her learn from her own actions?

[parent of bpd daughter]

I am so sorry you are going through this now with the rest of us. I can only tell you what I have learned in hindsight

as my BPDD is now in her 30's - what I woulda, shoulda, coulda done instead of what I did/did not do... .

1 - I have a contrarian view of this consequences issue - I think they NEED STRONG Consequences to each action

they commit that is wrong - even though it is counter intuitive as a mother when you know your child will react

negatively - with self harm or harm to others - I think they NEED STRONG consequences in order to help them regulate

their behavior. I ignored many bad behaviors that I shouldn't because I was AFRAID of my own child - what she might

do if I held her accountable - now I regret that - should have reacted STRONGLY to help her learn to regulate

2 - Expect that each time you set boundaries/limits on their bad behavior they will "make you pay" by attempting

suicide as mine did - or as yours did - trashing your bed or someone else's - Expect it - and let them know that they will

experience even MORE consequences if they do this and Stick to your word - even though it hurts and it is

counter intuitive - a possible consequence could be NOT TIME ALONE - must be supervised 100% of the time -

hire a nanny - (even for a teen) or maybe a nurse - could get expensive I know - but EXPECT the outbursts

I think they need our help to regulate their own behavior as they cannot do it on their own - so we must help them

by showing them Strong Consequences when they act out... .  

I'm not a therapist or a dr. so I could be wrong - that's just what I have observed with my own daughter.

Hope this helps - God bless all of us.

[cleanandsober]

This is a great topic... .  one that I struggle with the most.  Our family therapist advised me to remember consequences WITHOUT emotion, stay calm, be consistent, but be strong.  Since I myself have some BPD traits and anxiety this can be very difficult for me.  I can relate to being afraid of my own child... .  My therapist went thru the workbook Walking on Eggshells with me, which helped a lot.  Therapist also taught me the difference between "upstairs brain" and "downstairs brain" because I tend to over react and "feed off" her behaviors.  Progress, not perfection... .