It's at the point- need advice

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

It's been a while since I've posted (been riding the roller coaster). Thanks to my T, a good lawyer and my own sticking to boundaries, I see that there's no way the marriage to my STBXBPDw can continue. Especially for our kids' sakes. So, I'm am filling out the paperwork for filing for divorce and my lawyer is drafting an ultra-fair divorce agreement. The trigger was set to be pulled in a couple of weeks.

Thing is, today my wife woke up in a rage, because I'm "not truly sorry" for all I've done to her, and says SHE'S going to a lawyer! I kept my poker face up, but I'm a little worried she'll go to a pit bull who will get her filing TRO's and get me kicked out of the house, or worse.

Those of you who have been through this, what should I be doing to protect myself and our kids?

[Furuma3]

It's been a while since I've posted (been riding the roller coaster). Thanks to my T, a good lawyer and my own sticking to boundaries, I see that there's no way the marriage to my STBXBPDw can continue. Especially for our kids' sakes. So, I'm am filling out the paperwork for filing for divorce and my lawyer is drafting an ultra-fair divorce agreement. The trigger was set to be pulled in a couple of weeks.

Thing is, today my wife woke up in a rage, because I'm "not truly sorry" for all I've done to her, and says SHE'S going to a lawyer! I kept my poker face up, but I'm a little worried she'll go to a pit bull who will get her filing TRO's and get me kicked out of the house, or worse.

Those of you who have been through this, what should I be doing to protect myself and our kids?

[VeryFree]

I don't know the law in your state, but be prepared for the worst!

- Ask your L for the legal issues/possibilities. Also ask him/her about the kids.

- Ask your L if he/she can represent you if you get falsely accused. Ask for things to do/to don't.

- Be sure you have as much of your belongings as possible, but especially: cash, clothes, phone, paperwork (as much as you can get without harrassing your SO), harddrives, laptop, carkeys and so on. Be sure to put that stuff in a place where you can quickly get it.

- Try to find a safe place where you can spend the night (or longer) if it's necessary.

- Inform your closest friends or family, so you can go there even if it's in the middle of the night.

Most important: stay calm and think!

Take care! 

[Furuma3]

Thanks, VeryScared.

Have more or less taken all these steps- and I'm breathing deep to stay out of "fight or flight" mode!

Just really bugs me, hearing threats like:

"I'm going to come to your office and make a scene in front of your coworkers"

"I'm going to put you in the poorhouse"

Fortunately, nothing about the kids.

In Hawaii, where we live, no proof is necessary for a TRO, so that's really the only thing that worries me. Judging from others' experiences posted here, it's probably pointless to expect a guilty conscience to keep her from doing something like this. Bracing for impact!

My T did say this would get hairy.

[DreamGirl]

Have you checked out the book Splitting by William Eddy, esq?

[VeryFree]

Of course it bugs you.

My advice: don't let it bug you. That's all she wants!

I'm in the situation past the things you're SO is threatening. Mine started them: called the police on me, tries to ruin me financially and emotionally.

And it bugs me... .  but I do not give her the satisfaction of letting her know that. I'm not responding; just documenting and taking the (legal) steps that are necessary to protect my interests.

Be aware: by not responding, or by calmly responding she can get triggered more and try to get you do things you don't want to do. Prepare for that moment: stay calm! I did. And I'm very happy about it.

Take care.

[marbleloser]

File now! Don't wait a couple of weeks.The first to file has an advantage in that "they" control the pace of the proceedings.

She files first,she'll file,get an RO,have you kicked out of the home,paying child support,not seeing your kids,and you'll be playing catch up.

Get a quick gameplan,a recorder,and start documenting if you haven't already.DId I mention file now!

[GaGrl]

You might want to take the initiative to file a report with your local police station, stating that your wife is threatening to make unfounded 911 calls and/or accusations.

[Furuma3]

Thanks for all the great advice!

DreamGirl-I have indeed read Splitting- it helped a lot.

VeryScared- I too, don't let my calm down, but I am concerned as per your not reacting also provoking a trigger. I see this coming.

marbleloser-yours is the best advice! I have been documenting, but waffling on filing for fear of "hurting" her! Oh well, the filing will commence... .  

Gagrl- have to be very careful there- local (rural) police don't like to be bothered with possibilities, and I don't want to be "that guy". It wouldn't affect a TRO, anyway.

Thanks again, everyone!

[ForeverDad]

I recall my days of separation.  For a few months we had TPO orders against each other in family court.  When they were finally dismissed, the parenting schedule ended too and she then started blocking all father-child contact including phone calls.  The only protection I had left was my PTO in municipal court, keeping her away from me, that was likely to be resolved one way or the other in another month. 

So I got the county's multi-page Divorce With Children forms.  Spent a couple weeks filling them out.  Lawyer took them, said you don't need all that, and wrote his own 2-3 page petition and filed that.  If only I had known it could have been simpler I could have been quicker.  He filed about a month after she had been blocking me.  A month, I should have been quicker.

Guess what, she filed for child support one day before my attorney filed the divorce papers.  Her case was merged into mine and I have been the 'petitioner' ever since.

Would it have been worse if my ex filed?  I can't be sure, but perhaps so.  In any case, I don't regret at all being the petitioner, it gives me a little moral validation, though I've heard these days it doesn't matter that much.  My ex still counterfiled with all sorts of allegations, but at least it was preceded by my truthful and undistorted statements.  (Note: As time passed and she saw her allegations were not blocking me, they kept getting worse and worse, each one slightly different and more shocking than the ridiculous first ones.)

And the same magistrate we had before put us back into the same parenting time schedule we had before.

File now! Don't wait a couple of weeks. The first to file has an advantage in that "they" control the pace of the proceedings.

She files first, she'll file, get an RO, have you kicked out of the home, paying child support, not seeing your kids, and you'll be playing catch up.

Get a quick gameplan, a recorder, and start documenting if you haven't already. Did I mention file now!

I agree with marbleloser, don't wait, not unless there's a very good reason to wait.  "Waffling for fear of 'hurting' her" is, to put it bluntly, self-sabotage, pure and simple.  Sadly, our disordered ones don't reciprocate our niceness and thoughtfulness.  Probably best to call ASAP and tell lawyer to push that button.  Waiting never helped you before, most likely not now either.

Meanwhile, don't give her any excuse to claim you've been abusive.  I recall when I was often followed around the house and even blocked from escaping the rants and rages.  I'm sure she was trying to get me to scream back or hit back.  Fortunately I had the presence of mind to stay calm, though that infuriated her.  Some here have even been accused of DV simply by pushing past the blocking spouse to get away.  Yes, even a touch can be twisted, morphed and transformed into a claim of DV.  Be aware.  Beware.  The initial weeks of separation are often the most conflictual and legally risky.

[Furuma3]

Got the divorce packet, it's filled out, and it get's filed tomorrow- trigger is pulled.

My next question goes to living arrangements- both of us refuse to leave the house, but life will of course be unbearable for everyone- probably even the kids.

My wife is not a US citizen, and her mother is here from Korea as well.

They were set to fly to Korea in June (with wife staying there for months- she doesn't really care about our 3 kids, I guess), and I hope she either changes ticket dates or takes her mom for a trip to Honolulu early- but that is probably too much to hope for.

How did everyone handle who stayed, who left, or how to get along if both stayed? This is my main concern. Thanks.

[marbleloser]

This is where you'll need a "sanctuary". A basement,a room of your own,someplace you can go and lock the door.You'll need to prepare your case during the divorce.You need a private area for that and a safe place.You'll have her and her mom to deal with.They'll both gang up on you.It's going to be tough.

Get a digital voice recorder tomorrow! Keep documentation away from them.At work,in a safe,somewhere they have NO access to.

Keep all texts and emails from her and her mother.Go no contact.Only speak about the children and their welfare.

Luckily,I didn't deal with that,but I've read how to handle it when living together.Some states require you live together for a year while the divorce is ongoing.

Read "The Art of War",because that's what you need to treat it like.You have no friends.No one to count on,especially her and her mom.You do it all on your own and with your atty.You don't share or project your plan with an adversary.You keep everything as secret as you can.You misdirect one direction,while working on something completely different and more important in the other.

Expect that she'll badmouth you,slander you,lie about you,turn people against you.You will be the worst scum on earth in her eyes.You stood up for yourself.How dare you?

[marbleloser]

One more thing.GET YOUR KIDS BIRTH CERTIFICATES and hide them.You don't want her and mom flying them to Korea and keeping them.Take recent photos of the kiddos also.

[livednlearned]

File now! Don't wait a couple of weeks.The first to file has an advantage in that "they" control the pace of the proceedings.

She files first,she'll file,get an RO,have you kicked out of the home,paying child support,not seeing your kids,and you'll be playing catch up.

Get a quick gameplan,a recorder,and start documenting if you haven't already.DId I mention file now!

I second this! File first, file first, file first. It's best to be proactive at all points in the divorce process if and when you can. Don't negotiate with yourself, either. A lot of people do that, not just nons, but I think we're very susceptible because we tend to be more conflict avoidant by nature.

I think the best advice I see here (which is also the hardest to follow) is to know exactly what your objectives and goals are, and to develop a strategy to achieve your objectives/goals. Then stick to that plan as much as humanly possible. You are likely headed for one h@ll of a ride emotionally, so the more you can stick to your plan, the less havoc it will wreak on you, and having a strategy will help you legally (and hopefully financially).

This stuff does take a while, unfortunately. Get ahead of the train and file first so you aren't on the defensive.

[livednlearned]

One more thing.GET YOUR KIDS BIRTH CERTIFICATES and hide them.You don't want her and mom flying them to Korea and keeping them.Take recent photos of the kiddos also.

It sounds like passports too. Are you worried about her being a flight risk with the kids? If so, you can set up alerts in the customs database. They have a whole system in place to make sure parents don't take their kids outside US jurisdiction. Not sure if Korea is part of the Hague Convention, but even if it was, it's very expensive and really difficult to get your kids back if the other parent takes them out of the country.

[marbleloser]

Yep! Can't get a passport without a birth certificate.

[ForeverDad]

And copies of all major documents.  Bank account numbers, credit card numbers, loan numbers, last 3 years of statements, payments, debts, etc.  Photos of kids will need to be split or copies made, easier these days for digital photos.

As for birth certificates, possibly she can go down to a county or state office and ask for a replacement birth certificate.  I know when I went to my local office, I just showed my ID and they asked how many I wanted.

One more thing. GET YOUR KIDS BIRTH CERTIFICATES and hide them. You don't want her and mom flying them to Korea and keeping them. Take recent photos of the kiddos also.

It sounds like passports too. Are you worried about her being a flight risk with the kids? If so, you can set up alerts in the customs database. They have a whole system in place to make sure parents don't take their kids outside US jurisdiction. Not sure if Korea is part of the Hague Convention, but even if it was, it's very expensive and really difficult to get your kids back if the other parent takes them out of the country.

According to this link, South Korea joined last month.  But try not to test the system.  With the international implications, yes, you can't dilly-dally, file first.

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hague_Convention_on_the_Civil_Aspects_of_International_Child_Abduction

Also, ask for possession of the home - and majority time with the children of course - don't leave it up to her or the court.  Yes, the court can say no or defer a decision until later, but at least you tried.  That's the point.  The lesson... .  If you do ask for it you might get it, if you don't ask for it, you won't get it.

A real risk is that she may want to stay and of course the court might be inclined for the kids to stay where they are, which could leave you out in the cold.  I'm sure you're trying to avoid that.

Maybe she could move in with her mother?

Does she work?  If so, it may be easier for the court to have her be the one to move out.  Is your home rented, jointly owned or owned in your name for title and mortgage?  If rented, one easy way would be to say you'll be moving and that it's too expensive for you to pay for her to stay there.

[marbleloser]

This turned into a kick butt divorce thread!     And,all of this advice works and is necessary.

[livednlearned]

And to continue beating the passport issue... .  

She cannot apply for one without you.

If you think she will deny you applying for a passport for them, you can state in the order that you are the parent permitted to get the kids passports without her consent.

Otherwise, she will need to agree, or you will need sole custody.

Hope things go ok for you in the next few weeks. 

[ForeverDad]

If there are passports, then have them kept in safekeeping or escrow with your lawyer or family court.

Due to the international family situation, make sure that any final decree details how to handle those crucial details, joint custody is probably exceedingly difficult with the added complication of international travel issues, you can expect to get ex's agreement only when it's something your ex wants.  If only you want it, it may mean going back to court over and over.  So try to get those things ironed out before or in the final decree.  I always encourage the reasonably normal parent to try his or her best to walk out of court with tie-breaker or decision-making power in the final decree.  It will save a lot of pain - emotional and financial.

[Furuma3]

Believe me, passports, birth certificates and social security cards were the first things I stashed away months ago- even though 2 of the passports are expired and the kids can't get a Korean visa without my consent as well. Good to hear South Korea joined the Hague Convention last month- they hadn't last time I checked.

My T thinks that having her mom staying with us could actually temper her rages some, and considering the mom wants nothing more than her daughter to leave me and move in with her in Korea, it could sway things my way. She is of the mindset that the kids will "find" their mom after they get older (like so many Korean adoptees), so just let them go. Whatever.

Going to ask mom to change rooms and stay with stbx for that needed NC.

Met with her a couple hours ago to give her HER PASSPORT. I believe she's wiring all the money in her personal account to Korea (go ahead, my lawyer knows all about it and I've got my own account). She also said she's meeting a lawyer tomorrow to "discuss protecting her rights". Divorce papers will be filed (by me) by then. OMG, now the real thrill ride starts... .  

[atcrossroads]

Wow, Furuma, what an intense situation!  My adreneline was pumping just reading the thread.  It sounds to me like you really have your head together and have actually planned quite well.  Your level-headedness should be a great asset in the potentially rocky transition ahead once the papers are served, etc.

I hope all goes well.  You got great advice here (everyone is so knowlegable!), and I am very glad to hear you have both a capable attorney and a therapist -- SUPPORT is key.

I don't want to highjack, but I can't resist asking a selfish question of my own that relates to your issue of who files first.  My husband and I have been separated almost 3 months (I moved out - he won't leave house - we both are still splitting mortgage).  We were separated in house for several months prior to my move, and it was very tense (understatement).  We have no kids and no issues of spousal support (make comparable money), so... .  it SHOULD be a simple uncontested divorce.

However, he's been a real a$$ (almost all via email) and threatened me with defamation suit (really?) and more.  My attorney has said his attorney will have a PSA and paperwork ready tomorrow and I meet with my attorney tomorrow afternoon.  So I guess he is FILING FIRST. 

My attorney recommended this b/c it would be cheaper to me if his attorney spent the time on the agreement, and then we just look over it and lob it back.

But after reading this thread, I wonder if it puts control in his hands - if I will ultimately end up with a battle and/or paying lots of money (for no reason - again NO custody, NO spousal support.  It SHOULD be easy!).

Should I have filed first?

Furuma - best of luck, man.  You sound like you are doing great, and I hope it goes as smoothly as it possibly can.  I will check back in on this thread for sure.

All - was I foolish for not filing first?  Thanks and dang, this is hard stuff.  Complicated too!

[marbleloser]

atcrossroads, The only advantage he'll have is setting the pace of the divorce.It will be cheaper for you if you let him and with no kids,there shouldn't be anything to fight over except "things".

[livednlearned]

I agree with marbleloser --

I think the filing first thing matters less when no kids are involved.

Also, don't worry about the defamation crap. He's just rattling your cage. Honestly, I think there must be a script out there, the stories are so similar. Try not to post anything on social media about your divorce, but don't worry too much. It will cost him money to sue you for defamation, and that seems to be a disincentive. But take it as a warning shot -- there will be many more accusations like this ahead. I've lost count. Last one is that N/BPDx is going to have the IRS audit me. Unfortunately, many of us turn to our lawyers to find out if there is any reason to worry, and that costs $$. Fortunately, there is usually nothing to worry about.

[atcrossroads]

Marble and Lived - thanks so much for the advice and validation.  My meeting was supposed to be today, but his attorney had not had time to finish PSA, so my attorney and I will meet next week instead.  I'm not worrying about the defamation crap -- it's so transparent and SO MUCH PROJECTION -- it is unreal. We work together, and he is actually defaming me (go figure).  I am letting it roll.  I've known he would have to be the victim and that there would be a few casualties (colleagues, etc.) who would buy his vitriol (one of his "friends" asked one of our mutual coworkers why I'm being such a b*tch to him).  He is actually harassing me and so is his BPD mother (not only that she is calling my mother).  I have seen a whole new level of crazy since the separation.  Also, my therapist advised me to get off FB (I'm a sucker for FB - love to chat on there with my friends); I deactivated my account the day I left. 

He is very active on FB -- lots of negativity/nastiness -- and has sent me some terrible emails.  Words are a weapon for him, and he doesn't realize that putting everything in writing will make him look bad if it does go to court (which I hope to God it doesn't!).

Thanks -- I really appreciate the responses!  My stress level is off the charts.

Furama -- Update?

[Furuma3]

As requested- an update. Not the uplifting, victorious update I'd hoped for, more "meh" than anything, but here goes:

Had the papers all filled out, signed, ready to go and stbx cornered me with a threatening, ":)o you want my lawyer to serve you the papers, or are you going to straighten up?" That is when I felt it was time to tip my hand. I told her I was filing the next day, I'm sick and tired of weathering the whole emotional storm, etc. She was genuinely shocked and broke down in tears. Not the tiny, manipulative tears I'm immune to now, but deep, body shaking sobs. She said her lawyer was a lie, didn't exist, and she doesn't want to lose her family, and she would do anything, even go back to therapy, to make our marriage work.

Now I am not stupid enough to actually buy in to any of this anymore, but the luxury of having some extra time to finish final exams (I'm a teacher) would be a relief. I initially thought I would file later, but another part of me is concerned that she will really lawyer up and try to do some preemptive damage.

So- thank God for lawyers- I let my attorney know. She let me know that I can file and NEVER serve her and NEVER follow through. Stbx has 20 days from the day she is SERVED to respond, so filing doesn't trigger any time constraints.

That's it, big relief! I'm filing today and will serve when the roller coaster goes back down. It's good to have a plan and feel in control!

[ForeverDad]

In other states such as mine the service is automatic.  If yours is parked and idling, I guess that's okay, but beware that in the meantime she may strategize on ways to sabotage you in ways you won't discover until later.  Just a heads up that sharing information when a marriage is functional and working is wonderful.  Sharing information when a marriage is faltering and about to go over the waterfall is risky and can be a form of self-sabotage.  So ponder how she might sabotage you (manipulations, traps, pitfalls, framing, twisted and distorted claims, false allegations) while your attention is elsewhere.

[Furuma3]

I fully expect the tide to turn quickly- this is the only dependable thing about BPD!

I feel I did have to share that I wanted a divorce, and filing cements that.

I know her "shock" and "sadness" will soon turn to rage over what I've done. She could very well do any number of things- and so could I. I agree that it's time to clam up- I said what my intentions were, and I feel good to go from there. I have my recordings, witnesses and the truth on my side, so that's at least a start!

After we got home (news was broken in the park) she of course brought her mom into things. Mom tried intimidation (didn't work), "reasoning" (nope) and finally flattery to get me to keep her daughter (she's obviously BPD as well and all 3 of her kids are messed up). I clammed up and went to bed.

Got a call from stbx this morning saying her Mom was in tears over how she's being treated (priceless!) and she wants to return to Korea ASAP. Silver linings... .  

Whatever conspires in the next week or so, I do feel I've got my head on right. I do greatly appreciate you calling me out on possible self-sabotage, ForeverDad! Don't let up.

Fighting the good fight... .  

[pallavirajsinghani]

This is the time when you are most vulnerable for :

1)  False accusation of DV

2)  Suicide threats.

It is critical that you have a recorder ready on you at all times.  Even "ordinary" meeting in the kitchen should be recorded.  Dump everything in an encrypted digital "cloud" or something so you have memory clear and battery charged at all times... .  generally Ipds, Iphones and some smart phones can do this quite well.  Record phone conversations too.

It is better to say sorry to the courts for violating recording laws than to get into a false DV situation where kids welfare and custody can be jeopardised.

In case of suicide threats, do not hesitate to call 911.  When they arrive, she will deny it and that is when you pull out the recorder.

In all this upheaval, the children can easily get put aside.  How are they doing?  Their welfare is paramount and I hope that there are some safety networks in place for them.  How old are they?  Do you have your own family/close friends around?  Are they in counseling?

Hope all goes well for you and the children.

[atcrossroads]

Hang in there!  I agree - it is likely getting ready to get very nasty - she will be on the defense and the attack.  Hold your own and stick to your guns.  I have firmly decided that this is no way to live.  I wish you well and will check for updates on your situation.   

[Furuma3]

Another update-

Filed for divorce on Friday, have not served the papers to stbx yet. Was hoping to buy some time and wait a couple of weeks. Stbx is going to Korea at the end of May, and I wanted to serve 2 weeks before that to minimize drama and get her on her way. It's looking like things won't go that way.

Let me give a fuller background before continuing- married 15 years, 3 sons (13,9,8). Mostly lived in Korea with a few years in the US (she hated it in Texas) now back in the US (Hawaii). The thing that's killing me is my stbx is in remission from stomach cancer (been cancer-free for over a year), but of course, to her, she is on death's door and pouring on the FOG over it.

To her, and the allies she has enlisted, I am the SOB who jilted the cancer patient outside her home country. The immense guilt of this has me self-sabotaging at every turn- even to the point of thinking about staying together at times!

Tonight's argument did at least get those thoughts out of my head. She basically tried to pour on the cancer-guilt and said in so many words that my pain does not matter compared to hers- that is what should be focused on. When I tried to keep my boundaries and let her know my pain is important and should be important to her, she flew into a rage, grabbed some scissors, and started cutting off her hair! She screamed that maybe I'll recognize her as a cancer patient if she didn't have hair. After I took the scissors away from her, we both just kind of stared into space, knowing this was another nail in the coffin of our marriage. She did show her truer colors by mumbling she has to go to the Korean consulate to see about getting some Korean passports for our sons. Fat chance! I have all the documents and will call the consulate myself tomorrow to let them know I do not agree to the passport applications, if they are even possible without any birth documents.

May have to serve papers earlier- and even after all this I still feel guilty. She really did a number on me!