Dead to her

[suchsadness]

 :'(    YIKES... .  now I'm dead to her.  It used to be that she didn't want anything to do with me, NC, don't call, etc.

Yesterday and last night were hell!  The last week or so has been a nightmare!  My BPDd35 is at her breaking point, and of course it is my fault and I need to give her money    .  Where to start... .  in March, she had told me about her childhood abuse that she had only told her ex, just so he would understand her, but she would NEVER EVER tell me anything about it.  At that point I didn't respond the right way and she went NC with me.  I honored the NC, which was actually a nice break for me.  She has been telling her sister (some of which stories involve her but she has no recollection of), then since I was NC and that wasn't working she went to my sister, a friend (who is also my nephew's wife) and God knows who else with her abuse claims.  She hasn't given me any details or even hinted who she is talking about, so all I'm hearing is second hand claims... .  which don't make any sense to me but I can't 100% say absolutely NOT this didn't happen because I wasn't with her 100% of the time - it just doesn't work with timelines, etc.

Anyway, my dd35 said maybe my sister (who knows all her information) and I should go to visit the T so my sister could tell me about what happened (does this not make sense to anyone else but me?).  This approach makes me even more skeptical of her claims.  Anyway she thinks we are going on Thursday, but we actually went early because all of a sudden my dd35 wants me to come out to where she lives "for Mother's Day because it's better than a stupid card, and then maybe I will give her (me) a chance."  She is at a desperate place in her life and is needing some help.  So for the past week she has been subtly feeding me information about her situation... .  homeless, living in car, ex cancelled her insurance which suspended her license plates, no gas, can't take lunches to her son to have lunch with him at school... .  etc.  During our early visit we showed the T all the texts she has been sending to my sister and myself.  The first thing she said is "victim,victim" and after long discussion said ":)o not give her money".  So yesterday she texted saying point blank "I need money", I'm hungry and need gas, not place to live... .  etc.  She works for only a few hours a couple days a week as a photographer.  I said that sending money for a couple tanks of gas isn't going to get you anywhere - you need a more permanent plan, is there opportunity to pick up more hours at work or work a second job?  She has NO responsibility, doesn't have her boys with her or any debt except gas money.  You would have thought I asked her cut off her right arm... .  I got if full-barrels... .  with over 30 texts that ended with you are dead to me and I will make sure "I did my best is on your headstone".

Today -- a short message something like ":)id you ever find the missing pics from your man?"  One of the claims is that a guy I dated made her take nude pictures of herself, leave them in between the mattress, and he picked them up later.  One day some pictures were missing and they (her and this guy) thought I had them in my possession.  WOW.  She has never told me this but it was one of the claims my sister said she relayed to her.  I decided last night that I am not going to have any contact with her at least until I go in with my sister next Thursday.  Does anyone feel like I need to respond to this remark she made about the pictures?  I know that no matter what I say - it will be wrong and honestly... .  I can't do this anymore, at least not now.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[vivekananda]

suchsadness this is so hurtful and confusing and hurtful again. Can I remind you that it won't always be like this. This drama will change, it will ebb and flow, so be strong, knowing it won't always be like this.

I wouldn't respond to any provocative texts. I would find a way of managing my responses to her. Maybe set up a regular time to call, at the start of the day perhaps, or at the end. Or do it by text instead of call, or email. But put in a regular contact (daily, every second day, wekkly, whatever) so you aren't expected to respond to crisis and provocation on an ad hoc basis. If you respond when she expects/demands, then you could be adding to an escalation of the drama and causing yourself unnecessary stress. Maybe her wanting you to face the T with is a roundabout way of bringing it to a head, so that the T sees both sides and can help your dd better... .  

To demands for money I would say, can we work out a budget for you with the help of a financial counsellor... .  or some resource who understands (I have access to a team of T's who do just this sort of work - except no point in offering it to dd at the moment anyway). She recently had her power cut off, and didn't ask for help but solved it herself.

It is a part of the boundaries we now have for our dd when she would only contact us for money and split dh and I, they are:

Stage 1: Any money, show me receipts for it, then you can have the money. If it gets 'frequent':

Stage 2: I will only pay for T. If she still needs money, then:

Stage 3: Use the professionals to help prepare a budget etc.

She has not asked for any money since we asked for receipts or invoices. She thinks it is controlling it seems, and in a way she is right, we are in control of ourselves now.   The value this is based on is respect. We are not a bank or her purse. She wishes to live rejecting our support for her in so many ways, but use us to pay for things, that is not teaching her independence and it is highly disrespectful to us. It affects our lives directly, we cannot afford to just meet her demands when and how she chooses.

suchsadness, this must be a dark time for you. I want you to be strong and stay in touch with your inner strength and with us here so we can be your support also. 

Cheers,

Vivek      

[pessim-optimist]

:'(    YIKES... .  now I'm dead to her.  It used to be that she didn't want anything to do with me, NC, don't call, etc.

Today -- a short message something like ":)id you ever find the missing pics from your man?"

Does anyone feel like I need to respond to this remark she made about the pictures?  I know that no matter what I say - it will be wrong and honestly... .  I can't do this anymore, at least not now.

suchsadness... .    It always hurts, doesn't it... .  

Thinking about your previous posts about wanting to move on from the topic of childhood abuse/pictures etc... .  

I would not respond to the last text, or I would say something like "sorry, no pics" and then change the subject.

What do you think would be best?

At least you know that your d is trying to pull you back in (good sign that she wants communication).

Texting to a 'dead person' would be rather strange   (hope my humor is not inappropriate, but rather uplifting - such was my intent... .  )

[jellibeans]

Suchsadden

It is an endless circle... .  she keeps coming back to the abuse... .  how can you get her to move on... .  how can you both put this behind you so you can live in the present?

I think in one of your last posts you were thinking about writing a letter... .  I really think writing a letter might get through to her... .  is it really even about the abuse? Seems it is something also that might be driving this... .  what do you think?

I hope you both can put this behind yourselves and get on with rebuilding your relationship. Sending you a hug  

[mggt]

suchsaddness,  Thinking of you,    

[twojaybirds]

I would not respond.   There are a few things to remember:

This stage will pass at some point and she will be onto something else

In her head the abuse happened.  Perhaps you had a boyfriend and that to her was 'abuse' because you spent time with him not with her.  If it ever comes up and you believe you HAVE TO say something validate her emotions.  "You really are angry about your childhood. "    "You really feel bitter to me.  I tried my best, made some mistakes bit always have and will love you." 

Can you suggest the two of you go to therapy only to discuss the abuse and see what happens then.

I am sorry for this sadness.

 

[suchsadness]

Thanks everyone for your replies... .  

I hear the majority of you saying you would not reply and so far I haven't... .  and nothing more from her.  My T told us (my sister and me) to send her any texts along with a letter that my sister and I are drafting to my dd35 about suggestions from the T... .  one of which is that my dd35 (out of state) sees a T individually, I see a T (her) individually, and when my dd35 has reached a point where she wants to discuss this with me - then her/her T and me/my therapist would meet to discuss.  I believe that she is thinking that my dd's childhood would not be a subject for discussion between us until that time... .  a boundary.  The T has also told me to stop taking this abuse from my dd, and tell her that until she can talk/text without rage/blame I won't participate in those phone calls or text messages.  I am thinking that this is what should have happened immediately when she started last week... .  but you know what they say about hindsight!  My T is also saying not to write an apology letter at this point either.  I trust her a lot and she works with pwBPD, so hopefully it is good/appropriate advice.  Too bad this happened over the weekend, but then again maybe a little time to think about it was good.  We went to church this morning and that always helps me see things better and lifts my spirits (my dd referred to God as "my imaginary man in the sky".  Just another way to hurt me.  I sent a request for a prayer chain in her name today.    

[BioAdoptMom3]

  to you! It hurts so much to hear so many of the horrible things they say to us!  I kind of like that idea of writing a letter.  If nothing else, it will probably make you feel better.  Please know that we are here for you and that you are in my prayers as we speak!

[vivekananda]

suchsadness, it sounds like you have a T that is on the ball   what an excellent idea to address the issues of abuse with the T's meeting with you and dd - wow, that's a good idea! (I think I am copying it!)

In the meantime it sounds like you and your sis are getting some solid support from the T too... .  it is good you have your sis with you, you have someone at hand who understands the situation, someone you can talk to openly, to go over the same thing again and again... .  lucky you!

There are many steps along the way, but it seems to me that you have a positive plan to improve your relationship with your dd - in spite of all that has just occurred... .  perhaps a storm before the calm... .  


Vivek    

[suchsadness]

Well pessi-optimist, I did enjoy your humor ... .  funny thing is that she IS posting to a dead person, so I may be dead I am just not yet buried!  I have not responded to her (something that has never ever happened before) so she shot about 26 more texts off and raged to no end.  Now she has run out of nasty things to say about me and added some new material about my husband (the most wonderful guy ever who has been nothing but good to her and her boys) and ended with "stay out of my life, stay out of my boys' lives."  Thing is... .  My husband had my phone today and he got the messages at noon and I only got them tonight and don't feel one but bad, only for him.  :'(

My T read my dd's last messages and she said my responses have been great, and I have given no responses for 3 days... .  my sister and I got our appointment moved up to tomorrow, so feeling good about that!

[pessim-optimist]

Well, either way suchsadness, you are very much alive to us, and we enjoy your company here! 

So sorry for your husband receiving those texts. (Hope he is not taking it too personally... .  ?)

We have had experience with our ud32 (my step-d), when she was at the end of herself not being able to get what she wanted, or rouse an angry response out of us. We kept saying - 'we are open to a relationship with mutual respect, no attacks'.  She would resort to: "leave us alone (she included her sister w/out sister's knowledge), do not call us, write us or contact us."

However, it was just her unhealthy way of coping with our boundaries/lack of response she expected.

Eventually, she contacted us again. I am sure she felt her response was genuine and 'for ever', but we have learned with her, that as time passes and she gets into a different mindset, these 'forever' states change also.

Good for you and your sis with the T!

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[suchsadness]

Well - my sister and I saw the T yesterday.  We talked about a letter that my sister will be writing/sending to my dd to let her know what she (my sis) sees (which is a very rational, fact based view of what's going on)... .  along with the T's suggestion of her seeing a T, me seeing a T, and if my dd gets to a point of wanting to discuss any of her anger based claims in time... .  then we will all meet.  In talking with the T, I will not be responding to anything more from my dd - so basically I am NC with her.  We talked about having my dh call my dd's ex (I can't because I am too emotional at this point) and tell him we are concerned about dd and ask him how the boys are doing and how he is doing... .  and leave it at that.  I am at peace with this current plan, but as always have the reminder in my brain about "the best laid plans... .  ".  I am letting go - and letting God!

[jellibeans]

suchsadness

I can hear the sadness but I do think this is the best way to proceed. I hope the letter your sis is sending to dd will help her seek out the help she needs. Try not to look at this as a permanent thing ... .  but for now it is probably what is needed. some time apart will give everyone involved some time to think and reflect. I see it as a good first step in repairing your relationship with your dd. I know you must be heartbroken but this is temporary... .  I will say a prayer for you and your dd... .  

[pessim-optimist]

suchsadness,



looks like you have a good plan.

There will be obstacles in the road, as they always are with our pwBPD, but that's ok, you are letting go and letting God, and that is a wonderful start! (I feel like we are always 'starting' with our kids  )

[Defeated]

twojaybirds, that reminds me of a conference that I organized.  It focused on False Memory Syndrome.

[vivekananda]

the tools for happiness I have read are: mindfulness, self compassion and a plan!

Well done suchsadness   all seems to be on track.

Cheers,

Vivek      

ps letting go and letting God - how apt, cool 

[suchsadness]

Thanks everyone for your replies. 

Defeated - I actually bought the book that someone else talked about... .  The Myths About Repressed Memories.  It is very interesting and scary at the same time.

When we visited with the T, we talked about my dd35's version of her childhood and how little bits and pieces of actual events are mixed in with these horrendous claims.  I asked the T if someone with a mental illness can actually perceive reality in such a distorted way... .  and she said yes.  She said she believes that my dd is exhibiting "Narcissistic Rage", which comes from "Narcissistic Injury".  I looked up this information - and it sounds exactly like what is happening here.  She said narcissistic people can be part of an event that is just a small thing that happened in life and blow it up to unbelieveable proportion... .  making it all about themselves!  YES - this is exactly what she is doing, along with the distortion.  The T has been saying she isn't sure my dd35 has BPD, and that often people with personality disorders have more than one... .  I think she's saying that my dd has huge NPD tendencies... .  this then all makes sense to me looking back at how things were in her childhood and especially the way she is coping now - or should I say NOT coping.   

[vivekananda]

I was listening to the radio and a discussion between a psychologist and a philosopher talk about fear... .  that primary emotion that is so strong in pwBPD. Things seemed to make sense when the philosopher talked about people who feel fear feel that they don't have control, they feel powerless and so act to try to gain control.

So my dd a couple of days ago had a great 'power/control' argument with me... .  about my alleged abuse of her. I was thinking whether it was an NPD trait that was observed... .  but now I think that it was more about her needing to manage her fear and subsequent anxiety by trying to control me. It felt like she wanted me to submit to her.

nevertheless the psych didn't like this more 'philosophical approach' as an explanation of fear and the need to control... .  but I did :-)

I am almost at the stage of saying I don't give a damn what the diagnosis is, just let my dd get treatment!

cheers,

Vivek      

[suchsadness]

Hi Everyone,   

I haven't been able to be on the board much the last while because my job was so busy ending another school year... . Yay.

Thought I'd share an update on where my situation is with my BPD dd35 as of today.  My sister and I went in to the T and had a plan a few weeks ago (I talked about in an earlier post as well) - my sister would send my dd a letter stating how she (my sister) felt about things along with informing my dd that the two of us met with a T and the T felt that it was not my sister's place to share her abuse claims, as that would be breaking her confidentiality.  The T said my dd should go to a therapist and seek help, and gave us information about contacts in my dd's community, which my sister shared with dd.  My dd responded immediately with letting my sister know she would have no more contact with her and our T (who my dd actually by name suggested going to) knows nothing about sexual abuse and BPD!  Not surprising!  My dh did call my dd's ex, and they had a very good conversation especially given that they hadn't spoken in over 3 years.  The ex said we could have contact with the 2 gs's anytime, gave us the oldest gs's phone number and even had him call us later that day.  He (gs) was so excited to talk to us, he called several times throughout the weekend!        

So... . our gs then called on Monday (Memorial Day) while we were on our way back home from our lake cabin.  I told him I would call him later when we were home and unpacked.  BUT before I could call him back - my dd texted me (the dead one) and said "That will be your last Face Time/phone call to my children.  Hope it was a good one."   I didn't respond because remember... . I am dead!  Anyway, that didn't sit well with her so she called me on my home phone last night and I accidentally answered it thinking it was my sister calling back about our mother.  She immediately told me I am to NEVER speak to her children again and went into her explosive rage about her childhood... . again!  I ended the call after too many minutes of listening/reasoning with her (my fault for not immediately ending the call) by saying that I was going to hang up now and until she can talk to me in a decent manner, she should not call back.  So immediately after the call ended she sent me another text... . ":)ead dead dead!  To me C and K (two sons).  Dead. Bhit." 

My dh and I went in to visit my T today, she actually had an opening which was a miracle... . and must have been meant to be.  I am sending my ex son-in-law a message letting him know what has happened and telling him we will follow his direction as how to move forward with keeping contact between us and the boys.  We will be traveling out to their area in a couple of weeks and told him the dates we will be there, hoping it will work on his end to let us see the boys.  We are hopeful that we can re-establish a reasonable relationship with the ex - who has not always treated us well either but we are realizing that he was being filled with lies about us and trying to defend my dd.  He (the ex) said that he realizes he has made mistakes with us and we are ready to work with him in being a part of all their lives in the future.  He has a new live-in girlfriend who he says is good with the boys... . and we wish him all the best.  He also told dh that he will be seeking full custody very soon but has not yet filled out the paperwork.  In all honesty... . we feel this would be the best thing for those two beautiful boys as well, as my dd35 is nowhere near stable either physically (homeless, etc.), mentally or emotionally.   :'(

[vivekananda]

suchsadness it is so sad. Sad for you, your dh, your dd, your gs's - for everyone. In the face of such overwhelming sadness you sound balanced. I suspect you have been grieving for so long, that you would be a bit numb with it. My heart goes out to you.

I am glad you have had good contact with the ex. I hope that is the avenue for you to have contact with your gs's.

Your gs's know that you love them, that you are trying to be there for them. If nothing else, they have your love for them and knowledge of your care and efforts, in their hearts. When you will be able to resume contact, no matter how long it takes, that will be there. It will give them strength to manage what they face with their mum.

Your sister must feel devastated, but I suppose she knew what could happen. I hope she doesn't feel too guilty about it.

It is a timely reminder to all of us I think, of the importance of working on our relationship with our 'children' with validation and boundaries, before it gets too out of hand. It has taken your dd 35 years to get this this, it will take time to get better. And we all hope it does get better.

Suchsadness I feel such sadness for you. I feel that I understand how it feels. I would be frantic with worry for my gs's, I would feel like it is never going to get better, I would be lost in the fog. All of these responses I know would not be helpful at all. I hope you can continue to work on yourself so that you can be stronger while still holding the pain in your heart.

Please continue to post with us. Your story helps those of us with adult children with BPD.

Cheers,

Vivek      

[pessim-optimist]

Hello again, Suchsadness   

... . I know, it is SO painful to be treated so cruelly and be cut off from grandkids. We were cut off from ours' for about a year. Now their grandpa (my husband) has had a few occasions to talk to them on the phone. Very limited, but even that feels wonderful.

As sad, maddening, and frustrating as it feels, it was a fairly predictable reaction on your dd's part. She cut you off from them, so she did not like her ex providing an opportunity for you. She probably did not see it coming, since you previously did not have a good connection with the ex. Now she is likely to try to be more vigilant and active in trying to make sure her kids do not get to talk to you... .

Depending on your state laws and how soon the ex tries to go for custody, and how likely he is to get them, you might be able to get some visitation rights of your own (you may be even able to coordinate it with him).

I am just finishing a book on parental alienation (not sure if this might be an issue between your dd and her ex; it may not apply). The book talks about possibilities in some states to switch custody if/when one parent is trying to alienate their children from the other parent. In any case, there are states which assure grandparental rights. That might be something worth looking into... .    

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[suchsadness]

Thanks Vivek  and pessim-optimist for your replies.  It always feels better to hear some feedback about these situations from people who are also dealing with children wBPD and I am so thankful for this board.   

We sent the message to our ex son-in-law, but haven't heard anything back... . hmmm. But I guess honestly if I were him I might be taking some time to process the information as well.  I just hope we didn't burn the bridge that we were just starting to build again... .   :'(   Seems like all our dealings with my dd35 and her husband have been chaos, apprehension, guessing games and all the other emotions that go along with dysfunctional relationships.  I just wish there would come a time where it was predictable and stable.  I think I will actually post the message we sent him and see what you guys think of it?  We did discuss it with my T before sending it, and she felt it was good and appropriate.  But... . all of us (me, dh, and T) are logical thinking people, so who knows how it was perceived on the ex's end.  Also - my dd and ex show each other messages on a regular basis just to "prove" to each other that they said something to someone.  We knew going into this that the ex was not entirely trustworthy too... . so that was the risk we decided to take.  Here is the message.

"Hi E (ex).  We want to share some information with you so you are aware of what is going on regarding our communication with the boys. We enjoyed talking to them over the weekend, and then C (gs) called us on Monday just as we were getting into town from the lake.  I told him we would call him back when we got home and settled.  Before I could call him back, dd35 sent this text message….”That will be your last Face Time to my children.  Hope it was a good one.”  I did not respond.  Last night she called our home phone and I accidentally answered it.  She told me to stop talking to her children and then raged until I ended the call.  She immediately sent me a text saying “Dead dead dead. To me C and K (gs's). Dead. Bhit”.  At this point, for now I am blocking her from my cell phone and won’t be answering any more calls from her.  We aren’t sure what approach to take moving forward with staying in contact with C and K.  We feel it is really important to them that we are in their lives, and only have their best interest in our hearts.  We will follow your direction about further contact with the boys.  We also want to let you know that we booked a trip to (their town) a while ago and will be available from June 17th (later in the day) through June 20th to spend some time with them if these days work on your end.  We are asking that you don’t share this information with dd35 and it would probably be best not to mention it to the boys either until we are there and ready to see them.  Please know we love them dearly and always want them to know and feel that.  Thanks E."

Well... . guess we just sit and hope for the best, and I am once again working on "letting go and letting God".

[pessim-optimist]

hi suchsadness,

I think your text to the ex is a good one. However, given the fact that your dd is upset, I would not blame him if he wants to take a step back and make the situation less volatile for himself.

That being said, it means that yes, you might be in the dark for a while. On the other hand the planned trip kind of sets you up for another opportunity for communication with him and hopefully seeing the kids... .

Hang in there.   

[suchsadness]

Thanks pessim-optimist!  Yes the trip will be an opportunity, and it is also far enough out that he will have time to prepare or make some due ions about how to handle it with my dd.  She could definitely try to make him suffer and pay the price for allowing the boys to have contact with us!  He did tell dh that he knew he would take the brunt of her anger for this.  I also feel like I am betraying her... . but as my T says, we can't worry about that as the boys are the ones who need us so they don't feel abandoned more, and if their Mom can't be there for them then "her people" (grandparents, aunts, etc) should be there for them.

[vivekananda]

suchsadness I read it carefully and critically and don't know how else you could have done it.

I think you are right in your assessment that your dd could make him suffer for giving out the number. And that might stuff things up for him. So, I would think that if you don't hear, not to worry. He may be doing what he needs to do to maintain access. And perhaps that is what is best for you too.

I am glad you are working on letting go and letting God. As long as we act with integrity, work hard on changing what we can, we know that we have done all that is possible for us. We can sit and hold our pain and hold hope both together in our hearts. You need to be in the best shape possible, living the best life possible for the time when you can share this with the boys.

Cheers,

Viv