any feedback for me?

[vivekananda]

Hi all, I would value any feedback you may have for me. You may have an insight that I can't see.

Briefly, dd32 (uBPD) was n/c with me for most of last year. Late in the year I wrote a sorry letter, then we had coffee twice (maybe 3 times) for about an hour. We saw her at the extended family Xmas lunch. This year she was hostile again in response to texts asking to catch up. The last time I texted, I had info about a meditation course and offered to pay for it. Then last week she texted wanting to have coffee. We met yesterday.

She has had intermittent contact with dh's sis who is 'on side'. All our communication tends to be by text, because it is a written record, because she doesn't answer the phone to us, because it's our practice. dh's dad has been diagnosed with terminal lung cancer. He told dd by text. dd was very angry with him, she raised this several times, including how insensitive he was to let her know by text. She has had n/c with dh for almost a year. This came about when we finally implemented a boundary re not giving money without receipts or invoices. Previous contact had been focussed on her needing money for things.

At our last coffee catch up, I offered to pay for her T visits again. This time I suggested that he could bill us direct by visa.

So we met. she was late and was a bit 'tense' when we  met. We discussed meditation courses and arranged to go to a community centre nearby to check it out. I ended up paying for a 7 week yoga course and two trial meditation sessions. All the while she was bubbling away a bit underneath, she was feeling angry I think... .  she was on a mission it seems in retrospect.

I asked about paying the T. She said he told her it was not appropriate to do that because she needed to trust him and I didn't need to know who he was or anything about her treatment etc. The discussion that ensued led to an aggrieved dd asking why are you doing this? I explained why the boundary was put in place, out of our value for respect for our ability to plan out money - because paying out had directly affected our capacity to do things. I said that we wanted to support her not enable her - but I didn't get to explain this. She exploded (mildly enough, but still unreasonable). She said I was making out she was bad. I said that wasn't so. I tried to suggest an end to the conversation repeatedly, but not possible (we were walking back from the community centre) and she was wound up - but in control enough. She repeatedly said I wasn't valididating (that's right not validating, her mispronunciation threw me for a bit), I repeatedly said I can see you're angry. I think what she wanted me to do was agree with her that my intention was to make out she was bad... .  She ended up screaming at me on the street for about 5 mins going over this valididating. I said I was not responsible for how she was feeling and she said that when she was a child I was responsible and I 'abused' her (I think by not valididating her).

In retrospect, I think she was doing the same as she did when she was an adolescent, she was trying to force me to submit to her view of the world. She I think wanted me to fall to my knees and say 'yes, you're right, how stupid was I not to see it, what can I do oh lord and master who is so wise... .  ' it seemed like she was trying to engage in a power struggle to get what she wanted... .  when she was adolescent, I just let go of the engagement and did not enter into any struggle for power.

Now it seems like she will not seek treatment. I think she saw this guy maybe 2-3 times mid last year and that's all. It also seems that she will be n/c again for a very long time.

As for me I am emotionally drained. dh and I are seeing our T tomorrow. Any ideas for me before then? Any suggestions as to a [ossible way forward?

Vivek    

ps I do know who her T is already... .  I have checked him out, an expert on PTSD which she believes she has.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[suchsadness]

Oh Vivek ... .  it seems like such a no-win situation our pwBPD keep putting us into!  I'm happy that h are seeing your T tomorrow... . hopefully you will get some good ideas about moving forward.  You were so caring with you offers to help her, it is just so sad she couldn't accept it without the conflict :'(.  It seems like life would be so much easier for our dd's if they would be able to realize how much we love and care about them!  Sorry for your pain... .  my thoughts are with you and your dh tonight.

[pessim-optimist]

hi Vivek ,

trying to understand: when you offered to pay for the T, did your dd like that idea but did not want to follow through on the receipts/invoices boundary; or was she agitated about you being involved in the T process?

I am sorry you were not successful valididating  your dd to her liking... .     

... .  dh's dad has been diagnosed with terminal lung cancer. He told dd by text. dd was very angry with him, she raised this several times, including how insensitive he was to let her know by text. She has had n/c with dh for almost a year.

... .  

Do you think you were able to validate her (unreasonable) expectation that she should have been told in person or on the phone? Do you think she settled down, or the feelings from this lingered on?

So we met. she was late and was a bit 'tense' when we  met. We discussed meditation courses and arranged to go to a community centre nearby to check it out. I ended up paying for a 7 week yoga course and two trial meditation sessions. All the while she was bubbling away a bit underneath, she was feeling angry I think... .  she was on a mission it seems in retrospect.

I am also confused about the number of the meetings and when the info about your father in law came in.

(assuming first the text, then one coffee meeting when you suggested to pay for T, then another meeting?)

Do you think she was tense and on a mission at this meeting because of the payment issue, or something else also?

... .  I asked about paying the T. She said he told her it was not appropriate to do that because she needed to trust him and I didn't need to know who he was or anything about her treatment etc. The discussion that ensued led to an aggrieved dd asking why are you doing this? I explained why the boundary was put in place, out of our value for respect for our ability to plan out money - because paying out had directly affected our capacity to do things. I said that we wanted to support her not enable her - but I didn't get to explain this. She exploded (mildly enough, but still unreasonable). She said I was making out she was bad. I said that wasn't so... .  

I am still trying to put this together. Are you saying that your dd did not like the payment situation and thought that it would imply that she is not responsible enough to take your cash and pay her T and not use it on something else?

I am not sure, if an argument could have been avoided. The feedback that I can give is that the books suggest that less info (not explaining the reasons for our boundaries, just stating them while validating) can be better.

Also, (you may have said it earlier in the conversation) I would say "I see how that could make you feel that way. Maybe there is a better solution, that we could think about." (trying to defuse, deflect and buy myself some time - for her to calm down, and to have another conversation at a later time, when I had time to brainstorm - maybe she could pay for her T while you would pay for something else of equal value that she would be willing to give receipts/invoices)

Bottom line, it is up to her, if she sees a T or not... .  (and I know you know that)

That 'Boundaries' book and Lunberg on "valididating"    is so much easier in theory than in practice, isn't it, I am thinking of you... .     

[rehtom]

 I am so sorry :'(

You are going through this, does it seem like when you feel your making progress it so quickly changes. I am learning from you that if there is one thing about this illness is there is no ryhme or reason and never give up on yourself,  otherwise you will never be able to help her and your family. I am so sorry that your H is going through. We are thinking about you and yours and wish the best.

Rehtom

[vivekananda]

thank you suchsadness, pessi-O & rehtom   

pessi-O, it's muddled I know, I'll try to clarify... .  

order of recent events:

1) The offer to pay the T with direct debit occurred late last year (I think). The receipts/invoices thing happened mid last year.

2) text re possible meditation course from me and request to catch up, coffee. I tried to make a time, didn't suit her. I tried again twice, no reply.

3) dh texts her re his dad's cancer

4) she called SIL to ask about the cancer, 2 weeks after dh's text. She, as she always does, went on about how bad we are as parents. This time, the spotlight was on her dad and I was in the good books.

5) soon after she texts and wants to catch up

6) yesterday we meet.

She objects to having to show receipts or invoices because we should trust her. She objects to us paying the T direct, because we should have no contact with him - she says he said this.

I don't think I could have avoided an argument. I think because I wanted to 'do something' (ie see that she gets some treatment whether yoga, meditation or T), that I wasn't as on the ball as I should have been. I was not validating as I would have liked, she was on the attack from the beginning. I should have had a coffee and left with an excuse and not tried to pursue anything then... .  I needed to let go of my ego and desire to help.

I think she came with an intention to get something and that, I think, was to have me submit to her will. She was engaged in a power struggle it seemed like. And she was out to split me and dh with her criticism of him on a few things, esp telling her about the cancer by text. She had hoped to have me on side by a 'gee he is hard to live with ... .  ' sort of thing, because she has been able to do that in the past. She is an expert splitter.

I am sad because it seems that there will be no contact with the T because she 'can't afford it' - and we won't pay... .  (except on our terms... .  note we are thinking about ways around this and maintain our value)

I am 'confused' with the 'power trip thing' how does that fit with BPD or am I looking at NPD as I have considered in the past... .  

Sadly my validation skills weren't good enough for this encounter (remember mantra: let go of ego and let it be, validate what is). And she wanted me to validate her 'feeling' that I had abused her from childhood (not a feeling, an emotion, but her belief, I know) - that's where it ended up.

poor sookie me :-(       I am ok, just rather flat and tired

oohhh! I just got a text saying we owe her for two T visits and she has another on Monday... .  of that feels a bit better... .  have to work out our plan to do the money... .  

cheers,

Vivek  (a little enlivened)

[sunshineplease]

Sadly my validation skills weren't good enough for this encounter (remember mantra: let go of ego and let it be, validate what is). And she wanted me to validate her 'feeling' that I had abused her from childhood (not a feeling, an emotion, but her belief, I know) - that's where it ended up.

I'm not sure it has anything to do with your skills. If someone's after you, gunning for bear, there is just sometimes nothing you can do to change the dynamic. My hope is that she'll remember, somewhere deep inside her, that you tried to validate her in this moment, even as you held your boundary and did not merely tell her what she wanted to hear in order to keep the peace.

It always amazes me what "sinks in" and what doesn't. And that they can turn 180º and then not remember that yesterday they were saying something completely different. One of the hardest things for me to let go of is an expectation of a through-line. What's real for dd now isn't what will be real for her tomorrow -- which is wonderful when she's railing at me, even as it's hard to remember. Somehow it's even more difficult when things are going "well," as I expect a nice, linear progression, not this crazy cycling.

I'm so glad your daughter "heard" enough to take you up on your offer of financial help. What is it Valerie Porr says? Baby steps? 

[jellibeans]

vive

I think it is all about power... .  I truly think this is the base of all conflict.

I don't think you handled this wrong at all... .  you stuck my your boundaries and that usually results is anger but I see she has now come back to you and is seeking help again. I think when you have a boundaries that pwBPD will always try to bang up against it... .  it was good you stood your ground.

Do you think one day your dd would be willing to go to T with you to discuss abuse? As long as she still lives in the past it will be hard to make a future... .  sending a hug your way... .  you described a pretty scary scene and you were very brave... .  

[vivekananda]

thank you all so very much for your feedback. It helps... .  a lot... .  

we just got back from a visit to our T and we can see a way to pay for her T and keep our boundary - which is good. We will put money into her Visa to cover 3 or 4 visits a month for 3 mths when it will be reviewed. That way we can have a balanced budget and she can see the T.

After our session, I feel better in some ways, but so emotionally drained. I will take time out from worrying about dd and give myself some concentrated self compassion.

off for a walk and lunch with some friends now! I hope your day is sunny and mild like mine is here,

lots of love to you all,

Vivek    

[pessim-optimist]

Hi Vivek ,

sounds good about the T plan for your dd!

I agree, our desire to help can indeed stand in our way to a more effective communication (but it is so hard to keep focused when it is about our child. Practice makes perfect, right?)

That power trip - it may be something else, but it may just be BPD - the extreme need to control their surroundings to feel like their life isn't out of control, the need for others to agree with them, for their inner experience is so unstable... .  

Sounds like you are doing better today, and seeing things in perspective, yay! 

[qcarolr]

Vivek  -    Sorry I am so late in seeing your thread here.

Oh this is so hard. Our kids follow the same patterns. I am so glad that you have a plan to help pay for the T. Will keep that in my thoughts for it to work out for all of you.

That letting go of ego - of our wants and desires. It sure does seem to get in the way of using our validation tool kit. Does for me - often.

Another part hard to let go of is the assumption se make tryin to ' know' their motivation for the anger, what appears to be manipulation to gain control, the killer looks... .    This so effects how I respond or react to DD. I know what I need to do.

DD26's chant to me is - you don't listen, you need to fix yourself (or selves when dh is there), you are weird and all my friends think your are weird (never get this from her friends who seem shocked at DD's level of disrespect and hate when we are really providing lots of help - like motel room and storage unit and new backpack/sleeping bag etc.).

And then she adds - you stole my daughter. And then the name calling begins - ___ for me, F___*t for dh. And this whole time we are trying to get her out the door if we are home, or we are walking away-trying to get into car which she is blocking. It has been hard the past couple weeks.

Sorry - think I just hijacked your thread. Hope you can accept my leaving it - venting feels so good.

My perception with you D -- same patterns. She contacted you because she has a need that she is unable to get taken care of from other sources. Whether it is wanting the help with yoga/meditation/therapy, or to fill up an empty place inside by exerting control. You did an excellent job of being YOU and not slipping in to be a persecuted victim. You did validate her in so many ways. She may have been in a heighten mental state and not able to take it in.

I so understand the fatigue. It takes a lot out of us to be "ON" and then to unwind after these type of visits. So glad your T helped get things in perspective and a plan going.

take care - you are always in my thoughts and prayers.

qcr  

[vivekananda]

qcr you didn't hijack the thread... .  but you could do that anytime if you wanted 

Just sent txt off setting out new 'boundary' re $ for her T. Boundary changed a little when dh got his hands on it. A little less money and no time frame... .  but that's ok too. We'll see how it goes. dh's boundary requires her to give us amounts and times for visits - I don't think she can do this. I think just paying it into her visa card and then reviewing it is easier for her... .  but we'll see.

I am feeling easier, time does work well in that way. having a plan is good too. dh has been a brick - even practising his validation for me, on me! I feel loved   

Viv   

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[qcarolr]

     

[vivekananda]

Well! who would have guessed? When I sent off a text re the $s boundary I sent a separate one saying 'sorry':

I said: "I am sorry our Tues catch up went so badly. I would like to avoid that happening again."

She said (a day or so later): "I am also sorry Tues went so badly... .  I would also like to avoid that happening again although I'm aware that it may and we have a long way to go before we arrive at mutual understanding - thank you for your apology."

OMG. I was so happy, so encouraged, so relieved... .  What an angel!

Then, on Mother's Day, she rang. Well, I was driving and it was a quick call - but that was good too. She said Happy Mother's Day! That has to be a first for a long time, to have expressed thought for me unsolicited.

So, we do get there sometimes eh?

She will be seeing her T. Things will continue to improve. Thank you to those who have helped put me on the right path... .     

Vivek    

[qcarolr]

viv - awesome. 

qcr  

[jellibeans]

so happy to hear that things are going so well... .  stay positive and hopeful... .  that is the key... .  never give up hope... .  that is really all we have... .  

[pessim-optimist]

That sounds awesome! 

They do have it in them! We just have to be there for them, as they discover it and slowly put themselves together;   

Of course sometimes it's a temporary Picasso with an eye here and a leg there, sometimes a Humpty Dumpty and the process seems to start all over again... .  But, with our help, THEY CAN DO IT!

[vivekananda]

I've been reading Buddha and the Borderline, it is helping me see things from her perspective so much more... .  

how much of our issues with our dd's (and ds's) is about how hard we feel it is for us, how sorry we feel for ourselves? I feel I need to remind myself that it is her life that is being wrecked, not mine. I should be stronger and practise my skills more.

Thank goodness we have had a good T to help us through this time. Sadly our time with the T is coming to an end - one more session left with her, then we need to find someone else... .  

Vivek    

[jellibeans]

Do you like the book... .  I have to start it but I feel I have so little time right now... .  how I wish I was at the beach and I could just read and have a big drink and relax... .  we need to start the book club!

[vivekananda]

I got the book yesterday. I have read half of it. I think it's so good.

There is a lot of stuff we parents of adult kids can understand - some of it has my head turning - especially where I left off reading last night talking about parental abuse, neglect, invalidation. ooh it is hard to read in some ways because we get to see it from the other side.

I do recommend it and it is really well written too, a piece of literature.

cheers,

Vivek    

ps when I finish it I will go on to the 'book review' thread there is here and have a thing or two to say