when it all falls apart

[Parents! Get help here!]

What do you do when it all falls apart? I have spent months lurking here. Gathering information and reading others' postings. It is comforting to know that there are other people who know what it is like to live with a person with BPD. Besides my husband, I have no one in my real life who "gets" it. Some of that is my fault for feeling like I had to protect and shield my DD from others opinions. I wanted them to love and respect her. This has led to a lifetime of distancing myself from others, engaging in superficial relationships that never got too deep because I didn't want them to know the craziness tht went on behind closed doors. I guess it is the classic codependence dance.

I have a 24 yerar old beautiful, very intelligent daughter who was diagnosed with BPD about 6 months ago. This is what led me to this site, to research and learn what it is and how to treat it. I have learned about boundaries and wise mind and [url=https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-validation]validation[/b][/url]. I have read many books listed on this site. I am currently reading Valerie Porr's "Overcoming BPD" and also working through a dbt workbook. I thought we were on the right track by setting boundaries, enforcing consequences and taking time for ourselves. But this week it all fell apart and I am left second guessing every word and every decision I have made recently. I wish I could rewind time and just let her do whatever she wanted. By trying to hold our boundaries I have incurred her wrath and lost my beautiful, precious 4 year old grandson. I am scared and heart broken and so angry, no angry is not a strong enough word to convey what I feel. I am enraged and I know it sounds harsh but I can't summon up one iota of sympathy for my daughter right now. My emotions are too raw and the hurt so deep. I can't stop crying, can't eat and can't pull myself together enough to go to work. I am terrified for my grandson's emotional well-being.

My dd moved in with us 5 months ago. We welcomed her home, excited that she would be reunited with her son who we had been raising for the last year and a half. We were full of hope and love and excitement for a new start. Well, the honeymoon lasted for about 2 weeks and then she was tired of us, tired of parenting her son and started staying away from home ( just coming home to shower and change clothes and sometimes sleep for a few hours). DH and I sat her down and had a talk about how many days of the week we were comfortable watching dgs4. We told her we would watch him 4 days a week and expected her to stay home and care for him 3 days a week. We thought this should give her plenty of time to hang out with boyfriend and friends. Of course we would have preferred her to spend this time looking for a job or going to therapy, but radical acceptance is we can't enforce our will on her. This boundary and so many others have been challenged. In the last few months we have dealt with frequent trips to the ER for fake illnesses in an attempt to get pain meds, a pregnancy (her fifth one by four different men in the last 5 years), having our possessions pawned, having money stolen constantly, rages where I have to leave the house to get away from the screaming and name calling, and that is just the tip of the iceberg. I won't bore you with details because I know you have all experienced your own crisis and high drama that accompany this illness.

The situation that finally brought everything to a head was when she took dgs4 with her to spend the night at a man's house that she just met a week ago. I told her that she could go wherever she wants, with whoever she wants but to please not expose her son to over night visits. I should probably add that I have never met this man (I will call him G) but heard from credible sources that he is a drug dealer and gang member. Well, she was already mad at me about this. 2 days later her boyfriend gets a call from another friend to inform him dd has been cheating on him with G. BF shows up at my house to confront the two of them in my driveway. I am so glad it was early in the day so my neighbors did not have to endure that Jerry Springer moment! BF calls dd's other boyfriend (yes that makes 3 of them) who lives out of state, we will call him MM.MM did not know about other two boyfriends. He is outraged as every 50 year old married man having an affair with a mistress would be. He shuts off her cellphone and stops sending her spending money. The whole proverbial house of cards falls. The next day dd informs me she is moving out. She has no money and no job but has somehow managed to secure a house to rent. Swears she is not moving in with new guy. I ask her to take it slow with moving dgs4 in with her. We have been his only home for the last two years. He is clingy and nervous because she has told him he is going to a new house. He says "but Nana I want to live in this house with you." Ahhh, breaks my heart. I told him he will have 2 homes and there will always still be a place for him here. Try to put a positive spin on it. She leaves him here for 2 days and then comes and picks him up with no notice to prepare him. She has gone NC for the past 3 days. It is the first time in 2 years that I have been away from dgs4 for more than a night. She didn't let him take any toys, or books or any of his belongings. I have been wracked with worry. She won't answer my calls or texts and won't even let us know where he is living. I know he has to be scared and confused and feel as if we have abandoned him. It was my responsibility to keep him safe and I failed. I don't know what to do next. My attempt to enforce my boundaries has left my grandson in an awful situation and I feel so utterly helpless and hopeless. I would welcome any suggestions because I am so distraught that I can no longer think straight.

[TopsyTurvy]

What do you do when it all falls apart? I have spent months lurking here. Gathering information and reading others' postings. It is comforting to know that there are other people who know what it is like to live with a person with BPD. Besides my husband, I have no one in my real life who "gets" it. Some of that is my fault for feeling like I had to protect and shield my DD from others opinions. I wanted them to love and respect her. This has led to a lifetime of distancing myself from others, engaging in superficial relationships that never got too deep because I didn't want them to know the craziness tht went on behind closed doors. I guess it is the classic codependence dance.

I have a 24 yerar old beautiful, very intelligent daughter who was diagnosed with BPD about 6 months ago. This is what led me to this site, to research and learn what it is and how to treat it. I have learned about boundaries and wise mind and [url=https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-validation]validation[/b][/url]. I have read many books listed on this site. I am currently reading Valerie Porr's "Overcoming BPD" and also working through a dbt workbook. I thought we were on the right track by setting boundaries, enforcing consequences and taking time for ourselves. But this week it all fell apart and I am left second guessing every word and every decision I have made recently. I wish I could rewind time and just let her do whatever she wanted. By trying to hold our boundaries I have incurred her wrath and lost my beautiful, precious 4 year old grandson. I am scared and heart broken and so angry, no angry is not a strong enough word to convey what I feel. I am enraged and I know it sounds harsh but I can't summon up one iota of sympathy for my daughter right now. My emotions are too raw and the hurt so deep. I can't stop crying, can't eat and can't pull myself together enough to go to work. I am terrified for my grandson's emotional well-being.

My dd moved in with us 5 months ago. We welcomed her home, excited that she would be reunited with her son who we had been raising for the last year and a half. We were full of hope and love and excitement for a new start. Well, the honeymoon lasted for about 2 weeks and then she was tired of us, tired of parenting her son and started staying away from home ( just coming home to shower and change clothes and sometimes sleep for a few hours). DH and I sat her down and had a talk about how many days of the week we were comfortable watching dgs4. We told her we would watch him 4 days a week and expected her to stay home and care for him 3 days a week. We thought this should give her plenty of time to hang out with boyfriend and friends. Of course we would have preferred her to spend this time looking for a job or going to therapy, but radical acceptance is we can't enforce our will on her. This boundary and so many others have been challenged. In the last few months we have dealt with frequent trips to the ER for fake illnesses in an attempt to get pain meds, a pregnancy (her fifth one by four different men in the last 5 years), having our possessions pawned, having money stolen constantly, rages where I have to leave the house to get away from the screaming and name calling, and that is just the tip of the iceberg. I won't bore you with details because I know you have all experienced your own crisis and high drama that accompany this illness.

The situation that finally brought everything to a head was when she took dgs4 with her to spend the night at a man's house that she just met a week ago. I told her that she could go wherever she wants, with whoever she wants but to please not expose her son to over night visits. I should probably add that I have never met this man (I will call him G) but heard from credible sources that he is a drug dealer and gang member. Well, she was already mad at me about this. 2 days later her boyfriend gets a call from another friend to inform him dd has been cheating on him with G. BF shows up at my house to confront the two of them in my driveway. I am so glad it was early in the day so my neighbors did not have to endure that Jerry Springer moment! BF calls dd's other boyfriend (yes that makes 3 of them) who lives out of state, we will call him MM.MM did not know about other two boyfriends. He is outraged as every 50 year old married man having an affair with a mistress would be. He shuts off her cellphone and stops sending her spending money. The whole proverbial house of cards falls. The next day dd informs me she is moving out. She has no money and no job but has somehow managed to secure a house to rent. Swears she is not moving in with new guy. I ask her to take it slow with moving dgs4 in with her. We have been his only home for the last two years. He is clingy and nervous because she has told him he is going to a new house. He says "but Nana I want to live in this house with you." Ahhh, breaks my heart. I told him he will have 2 homes and there will always still be a place for him here. Try to put a positive spin on it. She leaves him here for 2 days and then comes and picks him up with no notice to prepare him. She has gone NC for the past 3 days. It is the first time in 2 years that I have been away from dgs4 for more than a night. She didn't let him take any toys, or books or any of his belongings. I have been wracked with worry. She won't answer my calls or texts and won't even let us know where he is living. I know he has to be scared and confused and feel as if we have abandoned him. It was my responsibility to keep him safe and I failed. I don't know what to do next. My attempt to enforce my boundaries has left my grandson in an awful situation and I feel so utterly helpless and hopeless. I would welcome any suggestions because I am so distraught that I can no longer think straight.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[nickyg]

What a heart breaking situation.  I feel for you and the concern you are going through around your grandson. It is devastating to see this played out and not feel you have any control over his life. 

What is your daughter like as a mother?  Does she take good care of him and show him love when she's around? If so I'd hope that he is okay for the time being.

Do you have any rights to guardianship of you grandson? This may be a good option for you and him to have a stable home.  I'm in New Zealand so don't know your system.  Over here, if we are concerned we can call CYF (Child Youth and Family) who have a lot of weight legally and talk about the situation.  It sounds like you have sufficient evidence for making a good case for guardianship.

My thoughts are with you through this difficult time.  It's so hard.

    nickyg

[suchsadness]

Oh TT, my heart goes out to you and your dgs... .  

I can feel your pain so deep as my pain from my dd35 cutting me and our 2 beautiful grandsons out of their life is so fresh! :'(. You and your family are in my prayers.  

[suchsadness]

Sorry, I meant my dd35 cut me and my dh out of her life and says we will never see our 2 grandsons... .  I was crying just typing it   :'(.   :'(

[jellibeans]

TT

I really feel for you... .  it is hard when there is a little one involved. Have you thought about trying to get guardianship of gs? If you feel he is in danger then you should.

Your dd has not really been a full time mother for years... .  how long can she go without your help? I know these couple of days must be hard but I sense she relies on you a lot.

Is there anyway through phone records you can find her? Any friends you know of hers? I do not have an older dd but I know it doesn't gt easier with age. It is good you are read Valerie's book... .  that is a good... .  my favorite.

I think you did the right thing and although it is hard right now don't look at it as permanent... .  pwBPD change try quickly and you need to be ready. You need those boundaries... .  she sounds like she has really put you all through a lot. My heart aches for your gs... .  

[TopsyTurvy]

nickyg, thanks for your reply. Just in a really bad place today. To answer your questions: no she is not a very good mother. I hate to say that but it is true. I believe she loves her son but is just not very interested in his day to day life. I would compare her relationship with him as more of a disinterested big sister. When he was two she lived about a thousand miles away from us. She decided she needed a vacation so we happily agreed to take care of him for two weeks. At the end of the two weeks, she decided to extend the time to three weeks. Well, eighteen months passed before she moved back home with us. In that eighteen months she flew home twice for a one week visit. So out of a year and a half he saw his mom for a total of 14 days. Often when she was away she would go NC, once for a period of 2 months. When she did call home she rarely asked about him. Most calls were whatever her latest drama was with her married boyfriend. In the last 2 years she has not contributed any money for his care. She has never bought him clothes, food or even sent him a present for his birthday.

Five months ago she decided to move home. We were ecstatic to have her reconnect with her son. We have been his caregivers for a long time but know we can never take the place of his mother. Every child wants his Mommy. Unfortunately, she has not taken much interest in him since coming home. She spends her time with her bf or partying or drug seeking for the oxy she is addicted to. We tried to put in place a boundary that she had to stay home with him 3 days a week. I wouldn't say she is abusive (well, maybe verbally) but more neglectful. We do have an agency here called CPS ( child protective services) who investigate cases of abuse. I would definitely consider calling to file a complaint for the drug use I suspect is happening but the problem is we don't have an address. She refuses to tell us where she is living.

I don't know if we could gain custody but I would like to look into grandparent visitation rights. He has been through so much in his short life and the thought of him feeling abandoned by us rips out my heart. I know he is scared and confused and missing us terribly. I just want to see him and let him know we are still here and loving him fiercely.

suchsadness I am so sorry you are experiencing the same pain of losing your grandsons. The pain cuts so deep. I will pray for you as well and on Mother's Day I will hold you close in my heart.

[TopsyTurvy]

jellibeans

Funny you mentioned Valerie's book. It was your glowing recommendation that led me to order it a few weekis ago. You REALLY like that book!

I don't know how long she can go without our help.  She really gets super stressed out when we leave her home alone with him for just one day. So I thought she would bring him home by now. I think she has moved in with this new guy He is a single father so that explains whyushe has taken a sudden interest in ther son. Whoever she dates, she reinvents herself to match their interests. So since he is a single father, she is now a loving single mother who would never dream of leaving her son behind. Add that to the fact that she is mad at me and using him as a pawn to punish me.

I will try to wait it out for a few more days. I pray that God will soften her heart to call me on Mother's Day. Sent her another text today asking if dgs4 could spend the night tomorrow but, of course no answer. It makes me so upset that she has no regard for what's in his best interest.

[jellibeans]

You would think I was making money off my recommendations... .  I really love that book!

The mirroring thing is a trait my dd15 has... .  I think a lot of pwBPD have this. Who ever they are with they take on their traits. I think they are just searching for an identity.

I hope she contacts you for mother's day at least. This might be a good thing. If she is with a bf he might help her be the mother she needs to be... .  could be a good thing... .  I really think she will contact you... .  give her some time... .  she can only pretend to be something she is not for a while. Ihope you have a good mother's day... .  

[js friend]

Hi Topsyturvy,

This has to be one of biggest nightmares too, and i can only imagine how worried you must be for your gs right now  :'(

Try not to be so hard on yourself TT for trying to install boundries with your dd.

I dont think it was unreasonable for you to ask your dd not to expose your g/s to risky situations.You have given him a sense of stabilty and a loving home for over a year which gives you the right to say what happens to him. You were looking out for his welfare which any loving grandparent would do.

If it were me, I would be looking at getting cps involved knowing that there is likely to be drug abuse and possible neglect. I would also look into guardianship of your g/s so your dd couldnt do something like this again.

I have my fingers crossed for you TT  that your dd will hopefully bring your gs home soon as she will probably get tired of the responsiblity of looking after him.   

[pessim-optimist]

I am SO SORRY TT!

This must just rip your heart out... .     

Don't beat yourself up, our boundaries always provoke a push back from a pwBPD. And it is in the learning stages, when we don't know exactly what to do and how, and how much is too much, and how much is not enough, so the pwBPD's behavior takes us by surprise, and it wreaks havoc in our families. It's terrible, and it seems to be part of the learning process for a lot of us.

Often it gets much worse before it gets better... .   

May I present a different scenario?

What if you would have gained custody of your gs in the time your dd was AWOL, and your dd only had access to your gs under safe circumstances?

What if you would have presented clear rules when your dd first moved in, and only let her live there as long as she earned the privileges thereof?

I am with you, I feel your distress, and what I am trying to say is that it is not the boundaries that are the problem. It is your dd's illness that is the problem. (Actually, I think that out of love for your dd you were too nice, for too long and it gave her an opportunity to create this present chaos).

I think that the situation you find yourself in is both heartbreaking AND dangerous (if the drug-dealing/gang member friend is still in the picture at all)... .  

I am not sure about all the ins and outs, (hope that someone more experienced will reply also), but there are several things you can do:

Document, what has happened in the last 5 years (with as much proof as you can get) - maybe talk to a lawyer about it.

I think you have a strong case to gain custody of your gs, if you choose this route, as you have had him in the last 1.5 years, and have a stable home.

Lay out your options, and try to treat the two situations separately:

What's best for your gs?

What's best for your dd?

Your gs is a child and deserves a special consideration... .  You are truly between a rock and a hard place. These situations do not always have a win-win scenario. Are you willing to loose your dd over your gs, if it came down to it... .  (That is something you and your husband will need to work through, nobody else can give you the answer for that... .  )  

Take good care of yourself and don't beat yourself up - hindsight is always 20/20.  The future is jumping into the unknown, and it requires a lot of courage.   

[TopsyTurvy]

Thanks for your support guys.

jellibeans, I have been trying to find any positive I can in this situation. Like you, I hope being around others parenting their child and spending more time with her son will force her to become a better mom.

Thanks for your kindness, J's friend. I really needed to hear that someone else thinks my boundaries are reasonable. I needed that validation and, seeing how that touched my heart,it makes me want to practice and put into effect my validation skills! I know boundaries are needed but I was not prepared to pay the price for enforcing it.

Pessim, yes it does rip out my heart. I can handle dd moving out. I can handle my sadness. What I can't handle is my dgs4's sadness. What haunts me is knowing how he must be feeling. He hasn't just lost me and my DH but also my 2 other dds who are like sisters to him. He has lost his home, his toys, his cats, his feeling of security. Not to mention my parents and in-laws who have a close relationship to him. He lost all this in one day, with no warning. That has to have rocked his world. I worry about his emotional well-being. It must be a scary world to know that you can't trust the adults who are supposed to love and protect you. And I was that adult. I have failed him and feel so guilty. I can't sleep at night for worry about him.

You have given me much to think about. I need a little time to digest it all. You have asked some very valid questions. Some of them require much more explanation than I can give tonight. I hope you will check back so I can pick your brain. I am in panic mode right now so it is difficult to think straight. You are helping me breathe and sort things out in a more rational way. I will think about this and post more later.

To all you brave mothers who are dealing with the stress and chaos of a child with BPD, I wish you all a Happy Mother's Day.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[jellibeans]

dear TT

I hope you are having a good Mother's day... .  please keep us updated... .  

[guidemeplse]

i just wanted throw in a couple lines i think we all can understand how you feel, but i would just like to say my dd need the same thing

to me i can not tell you how many times i moved her in and out, heck at one point i moved the guy in just so i could at least see her face and know she was ok , that didn't last either but i knew in my heart i had to ride it out she had to be the one to come to me and i had a learn to take baby steps, she has had BPD since she was 7 years old she is now 24, she lost her father when she was 16 so i have gone thru this alone i just found this site. and i can tell you that today was the best day we have spent toghter in years. i had to learn when she did things that i couldn't understand it wasn't aganist me personally and she had to learn that no matter what i always had her back there was nothing she could do or say that would make me stop loving her did she have boundaries yes and some days they worked some times you moved them a little not much but a little. today was a good day tommorrow , well who knows but we have learned to take one day at a time. so hang in there  truly she is in as much pain as you are the differece is she can't comtrol

it.

[pessim-optimist]

TT,

It is a lot to take in and deal with... .  

Take all the time you need, and in the meantime take good care of yourself.

We will be here, even if all you need is just a listening ear... .     

[TopsyTurvy]

Finally have time and a clearer mind to try to answer some of Pessim's questions. You asked what would have happened if I had gained custody when dd was AWOL. Well, for starters I could sleep at night without worrying about his safety or whereabouts. I wish I would have taken this route. As you said, hindsight is 20/20. It is a very long and convoluted story about why we did not pursue custody at the time. I will try to give a shortened version (but it will still be long). We got news that my daughter was diagnosed with cancer on Mother's Day 2 years ago. It was a very frightening time to know our daughter was sick and so far away. We were struggling with a lot of emotions, worried about her health and her future and not knowing if she would make it through this. In June we traveled across country to see her and dgs. She was in hospital when we arrived because of infection incurred due to a colonoscopy. We later found out it was really due to complications from a botched abortion. She asked if she could bring dgs to state we lived in so she could take a 2 week vacation. We agreed, happy to have time to spend with him. When the 2 weeks stretched into a month we questioned when she would return. In the meantime she got evicted from her apartment and moved in with her married lover and his wife. She couldn't take dgs there. She finally got her own place but her cancer was advancing and she would have to undergo chemo. I arranged to take a leave of absence from my job and offered to move to her state so I could take care of both her and dgs while she did the chemo. This would leave DH alone to take care of our 2 other children. She did not want me to come because she did not want dgs to witness her sick. So, we agreed he would stay with us while she concentrated on getting well. Then came the endless excuses to keep putting treatment off. It was 9 months after he came to stay with us that she finally even started the chemo. We begged her afterward to come home so she could be reunited with her son and we could take care of her. She refused, chosing to live instead in a homeless shelter and then in a tent in someone's backyard. During this time her cancer had progressed to the point of needing a liver resection. It took another nine months before she finally came home. Her cancer suddenly cured itself with no need for any treatment. In the months since she has been home we have come to the conclusion that the whole cancer scenario was a lie. A hoax perpetrated to gain attention, receive money from us and many extended family members, and a reason to walk away from her son. So, yes, I should have pursued custody during that time but what kind of mom would sue her child for custody while she is battling cancer? We did not know at the time that she just wanted to live a life as a single woman without the burden of a child.

As far as ground rules, there were not too many when she moved home. We were just happy she was here and reunited with her child. We did not know the extent of her mental illness or how her addiction would lead her to steal money and pawn our belongings. We were just figuring things out, doing a lot of reading and learning about validation and boundaries and starting to implement them when things went awry.

But to answer your most important question about if we are willing to lose our dd over our gs, the answer is yes. DH and I agree 100% that his needs must come before dd's. We love our daughter but she is grown and capable of making her own decisions( however flawed they may be). Children deserve protection because they have no control over their environments.

I know we have not handled things well. Our actions and lack of actions and codependency and fear of losing our grandson have led us down this dark road. Now we are just trying to learn how to make things better. We need more healthy boundaries and coping skills and knowledge about this illness.

[pessim-optimist]

Hi again TT,

Thank you for your story. What you write is very profound. You put a lot of thought into it. There was no way for you to know all this while you were going through it. Don't be too hard on yourself blaming yourself for not handling things better. New knowledge, coupled with the proverbial 20/20 hindsight is a wonderful tool for us to go forward, to make the FUTURE better.

So much pain, and hurt, and energy expended lovingly to care for your gs and dd as best as you knew.   

The reason I asked you about the other scenario was to offer another perspective, for you to see the benefit of boundaries, as you seemed to be doubting yourself and the whole concept of boundaries at the time... .  

Thinking of you, and wishing you strength into the near future!   

[TopsyTurvy]

Pessim, I hope you know I value your input! I didn't mean to come across as defensive, just wanted to explain the thought processes that we were dealing with at the time.

I know boundaries are important. I do think our boundaries were reasonable. And, I know we had to make some changes to protect our sanity and to restore balance to the household. The chaos was causing a lot of stress on my two younger dds, not to mention myself and my dh. I was just so shcocked and unprepared for the outcome. I think if I had taken the time to consider her reaction, I would have been better prepared to deal with the consequences. So, even though I am sad because of the way things turned out, I know something had to change. To be a happy and healthy family we couldn"t just keep going down the road we were on. It was time to take a stand. So, to anyone else out there I do recommend enforcing boundaries.

Now that I am not functioning in panic mode, I can see thing a little more clearly. I feel much more grounded today. I thank you all for giving me the support and encouragement I needed. Amazing what a group of strangers can provide. I am so thankful for this site and it was cathartic to get it off my chest.

A lot has transpired in the last 9 days. Since jellibeans asked, I will give an update as soon as I have time. Maybe you guys can help me make wiser decisions in my interaction with dd moving forward! I could use all the help I can get because I feel like I have a LOT to learn.

[pessim-optimist]

Pessim, I hope you know I value your input! I didn't mean to come across as defensive, just wanted to explain the thought processes that we were dealing with at the time.

 TT, Thank you for your nice words. You did not come across as defensive at all. And your explanation was wonderful and totally made sense. You did your absolute best at the time.

It's rather the other way around - I saw your hurt and brave struggle, and wanted to encourage you on the way, when you seemed discouraged. And in doing that I was hoping to not sound judgmental... .  

This IS such a complex journey with our loved ones, and the frequent need to respond in real time makes it even more challenging.

Hang in there, we all have a lot to learn, but we can share what we have learned so far. 

[js friend]

A lot has transpired in the last 9 days. Since jellibeans asked, I will give an update as soon as I have time. Maybe you guys can help me make wiser decisions in my interaction with dd moving forward! I could use all the help I can get because I feel like I have a LOT to learn.

This update sounds promising... .  does it mean that you are now in contact with your dd again?

Im so glad to read that you are feeling better TT. I have thought about you a  lot over the last few days in regards to my own situation with dd18 and gd if the same should ever happen.

[TopsyTurvy]

Finally able to update. My dd called me at work on Mother's Day and agreed to let me see gs. She said she would drop him off at my mother-in-law's house because my husband and I were both working and our two other daughters were at MIL's. I was so relieved and excited to get to see my gs. Well, dd never showed up. MIL called to ask her if she was still coming and was told no, so she said ok and wished her a happy mother's day. A few minutes later MIL receives a long, screaming voicemail from dd's new boyfriend. Basically saying that she can't see gs because we (the whole family) don't show dd enough respect and make her feel guilty. Who does this? Calls a sweet, old lady on Mother's Day and rages at her. My poor MIL has never even met this man and had no idea what was going on. Well, then again, none of us have met this new guy. I send dd a text asking her what is going on. New bf texts back ":)on't worry about it. Gs is staying home with us."

For the next 4 hours this lovely man sends text, after text, after text to my phone. AHHH! All I wanted to do was get off work, see my sweet gs and watch the Survivor Finale. Just a simple request, right? Instead I had to spend hours on the phone texting this whacko. Okay, what I should have done was turn off my phone, spend the evening with my husband and two children who don't hate me, and ignore his hateful messages. I know that is what I should have done, but I was so disappointed and sad. I couldn't quit crying because I was so excited to see my gs and then to find out I couldn't broke my heart. It had been a week and I was desperate to see for myself that he was okay and to let him know we were still here and loving him. So, I answered his angry texts in an attempt to defuse this situation. To sum up his LONG texts: exbf is a loser, he is a wonderful, caring father who loves my gs as much as his own children( amazing connection in a 2 week span), he is encouraging dd not to let us see gs, he is discouraging her from having contact with us because we don't respect her, and he is going to heal her from all the damage that her family has caused. Now, I know my dd has filled his head with a lot of lies and probably outrageous stories about us. Maybe, he thought he was protecting her but huge red flags were going off for me by witnessing how angry and confrontational he was being. I really just wanted to tell him he was a controlling jerk and how dare he call my MIL and rant at her like that. But, for my gs's sake I had to swallow my anger and try to calm him down. Apparently he is calling the shots now and dictating if we can be involved in our gs's life. I did tell him that it was not okay what he did to MIL and that if he had a problem with me to please not punish the rest of the relatives or gs by keeping them apart. I spent a lot of time validating his feelings ( good practice, I guess) and staying calm while he ranted. I did not lose sight of my goal of seeing my gs. If that means making peace with a crazed person I will. After witnessing his behavior, especially the never-ending texts, I think maybe he might have a PD himself. We ended on better terms than we started.

The next day we get a text that they are bringing gs over. DD drops him off and agrees to leave him overnight. Oh, my gosh, I can't tell you how wonderful it felt to see him. I think I spent half the day just staring at him and drinking in the sight of his face. I could finally breathe again. DH asked me to call out of work and stay home with them for the evening. I have been with this man for years and that is the first time he has asked for anything like that. So I did. I think the whole family needed that time. We went to my dd13's soccer game and just hung out together all day. So thankful for the gift of family. We have all been so stressed this week and this time together was just what we needed. You know that feeling you get when all your kids are tucked in bed safely? Yea, that's how it felt. I slept for more than 3 hours for the first time in a week.

We had gs for 4 days that week and we have had him for 4 days this week. I feel so much better just having contact with him. I am still uneasy about this new bf because he seems to have a really bad temper but by having gs around I feel we can protect him. We can keep an eye on things and be able to step in if we think he is being abused in any way. And we can have him in our home so he can have some consistency in his life. They still won't tell us where they live, but it's okay because exbf found out and gave us the address. They don't have to know that we have that info but it makes us feel better.

So, for now, I am starting to keep a journal and documenting everything, just in case I need it later. I am also reading and trying to learn my validation skills. I am finding it much easier to concentrate and to have more compassion when dd is not living in our house. Just not having that constant chaos around is helping all of us to breathe a little easier.

[jellibeans]

TT... . what the heck! I don't understand why the bf was so angry? I don't know if this is going to help things with your dd. I am glad you got to see gs and you are spending some time with him on a regular basis.

How are things with your dd? and the bf? Have you had the chance to talk in person with either? I think texting and emailing is hard to tell the persons emotions and such... . face to face is so much better.

What is your plan going forward? I think keeping a journal is good but how are you going to repair your relationship with dd? is that possible? This new bf is a bit frightening.  

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[js friend]

Im so glad that you are being allowed to spend time with your gs again TT and what you wrote about just drinking your gs in face had my eyes brimming over. Your poor gs must be so confused, but at least now you are able to touch him, remind him that you  love him and reassure him that you are all still there.   

Id be a bit weary of b/f  though. He definelty sounds like he lacks boundries, has anger issues and a control freak!... . 4 hours of nasty texts  to people he hasnt even met doesnt bode well for good future relations. So many  but I think you handled it beautifully.

Have you had the chance to speak to your dd alone or is b/f there to drop and pick up. Are you able to tell her that you would like to discuss with  her future plans for g/s?

Also I was wondering if your gs attending a school or preschool where you could ask the staff to keep an extra set of eyes on him.? The more people looking out for him will be better. Listening carefully to what gs says and Journalling everything is also a great idea  

[TopsyTurvy]

jellibeans, I don't know why he is so angry. We had never met him or even spoken to him at that point. My best guess would be that dd has told him some crazy stories about us. She was angry when we laid down our boundaries and determined to move out so she wouldn't have any rules or restrictions. Since she has no job or money she had to have someone willing to pay for a place for her. By telling him we are awful people and unsafe to be around she pressured him into renting a house for the two of them. And then to explain to her exbf ( who was still her current bf at the time) why she was moving in with another man, she told him we were "terrorizing her" and she had to get out. We have a pretty good relationship with him so he knows that isn't true. She has also confided in him about the BPD so he knows that fuels a lot of her behavior.

I have now met the new bf once when they came to pick up gs. Usually he waits in car. We talked a little. Mostly he wanted to talk about what a bad person her exbf is and what a great person he is. I told him dd was free to date whoever she liked and as long as he treated her with respect and was nice to our gs we would get along fine. I told him we would judge him, not by what we have heard of him, but by his actions and that what we have seen so far had us concerned. All we had to judge him by was his call to my MIL and the fact that he was restricting our time with gs. He said the reason he made the call was that dd was very upset when she got off the phone. She was crying and he wanted to know why. She told him that her grandma had direspected her. I don't doubt that she was crying, probably because she felt guilty. She couldn't admit that to him though. Dd was just looking at the floor and I knew she was embarrased to be caught in a lie in front of me. I thought it was important to confront the situation. Don't want him to believe what she says and use that as a reason to not let him see his Grandma. Here is the conversation with her:

Me: So Grandma disrespected you? That is surprising! I have never heard her say an unkind word to you before.

DD: Yeah, kind of.

Me: Really, your sisters were standing right beside her when she was on the phone with you and they both said she only asked if

      you were bringing gs over and then wished you a Happy Mother's Day. If that is not true and she said something else let me know. If

      she is being unkind I would want to step in. So, what did she say to make you feel that way?

DD: Ummm, well I can't really remember. It was probably just a misunderstanding.

She wanted to end that conversation quickly!

As far as repairing the relationship with dd, well she is acting as if there was never a problem. She is not angry any more. She is letting us see gs whenever we want. She is calling us and stopping by and telling us she loves us. She got what she wanted by moving out and now she is fine. I guess we will use this time to try to gain more skills in dealing with her disorder. We can't change her so I am going to work on what I can change, myself. Maybe, I can change the dynamic between us. I will also pass on the DBT workbook I bought, after I finish working it myself. She won't get counseling but I will continue to encourage that route.

J's friend, thanks for the kind words. You are right, there are many red flags with the new guy. He seems a bit scary. The two of them had an altercation a couple days ago and a neighbor called the police. No charges were filed because it didn't get physical. Just a lot of loud, angry shouting I guess. I am glad gs was with me and did not witness that and I am glad she has neighbors that are willing to get involved.

When she visited with new bf she showed me the tattoo he has given her; his name across her stomach. Ahhh, wth? I had to ask God to help me keep my mouth shut. Her body, her consequences. If she wants someone's name she has known for 3 weeks tattooed on her, that is her right. They also let me in on their wedding plans. It is supposed to take place some time next week. Only one problem, they don't have enough money to pay the justice-of-the-peace. So they are planning to invite guests and have them pitch in money to pay for the marriage. Sometimes the insanity never ends.

[pessim-optimist]

Wow, TT, I am SO happy for you!

This was a big turnaround in a very short time. 

Normally, I would also say that you should have turned your phone off when bf was texting. But this time - since it was the first communication you guys had, and he had it in his head that dd's family was terrible, you probably did a lot of good by dispelling that image by your actions and validating skills, and defused the situation.

It does seem that the previous crisis is over and thus your dd has returned to 'normal'. It is great that she lets you see gs (probably also a return to 'normal', where she is not used to and interested in taking are of him on a continual basis).

As the situation is unpredictable and CAN change any time for an unforeseen reason, enjoy what currently is and at the same time be prepared for the possibility of sudden change for the worse, so you are not taken by surprise if that happens.

It is not easy to run on parallel tracks while not making the disastrous scenario into a self-fulfilling prophecy. Working towards a better and more stable relationship with dd, while making sure gs is safe currently AND having a backup plan of action in case things go suddenly belly up... . It is a balancing act.

[TopsyTurvy]

Thanks Pessim, it was a quick turnaround. It was great to see my gs again. It probably did have more to do with her getting a break than for our welfare. She now has a 3, 4, and 5 year old in the house. That would be a handful for anyone. From conversations she seems to be realizing the grass is not so green in the new house!

We settled into a routine of us keeping him from Sun. to Thurs. She was keeping him Fri. and Sat. Unfortunately, it seems as if the situation has changed again and we feel as if we are back to square one. She didn't show up to drop him off on Sunday like she usually does. When we called, she said they were still coming over but she never showed. She has gone NC since that time. It has been a week since we have seen him. She won't text or answer calls.

I know she is not mad at us for anything right now, so I figure it must be the boyfriend's decision. I know she has been using us as a cover while she sneaks off to see her old bf. So when she is supposed to be picking up gs, she goes sees the old bf. When he becomes upset because she is gone for hours then she tells him it is because we were not home and she had to wait around for us to pick up gs. So we are back on his bad side and once again we are paying the price for her lies.

This has been another hard week. We have thrown ourselves into projects we have put off for years. Without a little one around to care for, we are finding a lot of time on our hands. We are also spending a lot of time with our 2 other daughters doing family outings. I think they are enjoying all the extra attention. I have to stay busy every moment to keep my sanity and keep the sadness from settling in.

My husband keeps reminding me of how quickly things can change. Dd cycles so much. He thinks we will be raising gs again soon enough. I know he is probably right but this roller coaster is wearing me out. I guess it is time to work on that backup plan. Just don't know yet what that will be.

[js friend]

Im so sorry to hear things have taken a backwards step TT.

Hopefully the marriage will be off and gs will be back home with you all soon  

[pessim-optimist]

So sorry to hear about the roller coaster.   

This condition IS unpredictable. Or I should say - predictable in that it is unpredictable.

It looks like your husband is an encouragement, voice of wisdom, and a great support guy for you. 

Take care of each other, and keep enjoying your daughters in the meantime.

Hopefully the marriage will be off and gs will be back home with you all soon  

That just might be your solution; however, keep thinking on several different tracks just in case... .

[MammaMia]

This is a terribly volatile situation.  Things may appear somewhat more stable but they are not.

It sounds like your dd is using her new bf.  He is providing her with a home, is paying the bills, giving her money, helping with her child, etc.  Who marries someone they have known for less than a month?  I doubt she is serious.

If she returns home, this may create a dangerous situation for everyone.  She is unstable and she has compounded the problem by bringing an unstable man into your lives.  

What do you think will happen when (not if --- but when) he finds out she is still seeing her previous bf?  You said you worry about anger issues with him, and there has been one domestic incident involving the police already.  

Your gs deserves better than this.   Please consider your options again.  This child needs protection and stability not more chaos and fear.

[TopsyTurvy]

MammaMia, thanks for your input. You are right. This is volatile and my daughter is making some really bad decisions in her life right now. You ask who would marry a man they have only known for a few weeks. I don't know if she will go through with it but she is VERY impulsive. It would not surprise me if she carried out that plan. She makes big moves really quickly and does not think about the consequences.

I do need some advice from anyone who would like to give some input on how to move forward. I got a text from her bf a couple days ago. Now I know why we are being kept from gs. I will post the message here to give you some insight.  His text: "Stop encouraging exbf. You and exbf both need to understand it is over and they will never be an item again. She is very happpy now with her new life but the constant messages from exbf and the stalking her by driving by my house has got to stop. I don't appreciate u givin him dd's number. I know it was u because u r the only one who had it that knows exbf. So we r changing her # and u will not have it because its obvious we cant trust u. This all goes back to showing her respect. But u cant seem to do that and i told u that if u can not respect her or her wishes then we will not let it happen by jus staying away from u. By staying away we dont have to stress it anymore. Tell exbf to get over it and move on. He only seems to listen to u." So that is why we have been alienated again. Now her ex did not get the # from me. I have not talked to him in weeks and no way would I jeopardize being able to see my grandson by giving out her phone number. I texted back assuring him I had not given out dd's number and agreeing to talk to exbf to try to get him to stop. I also asked that he not withhold our grandson from the rest of the family because he is mad at me. I told him I would step out of the picture for gs sake if he would just let him still see his two sets of great grandparents and his aunts. Have had no more communication with either one of them.

Met with exbf and told him that his and my dd's actions were getting in the way of my being able to see gs. I asked him to please back off for  gs's sake. Dd gave him her phone number and then, when bf found their texts,  blamed it on me to cover up. He let me know that dd has been calling him and stopping by to see him daily. Showed me pictures of her and let me listen to her voice messages.  She has told him she is leaving new bf but is afraid and just waiting for the right time to get her stuff and go. I think this is just an excuse for her not leaving bf but making sure exbf stays around also. I am tired of being thrown under the bus whenever she gets caught in her lies. She keeps everyone involved mad at each other so that none of the anger turns toward her.

I am considering showing up at her house tomorrow.I would take husband with me because I do not want to face the lion's den alone. She and bf do not know I have their address. I think they will be shocked to see us. I am sure the bf will not be happy but this is our only way to communicate with them. We are not sure of their living arrangements and if we decide to get CPS involved we need to make sure we have the right address. My thought is that we will try to reason with them. If that does not work I am considering talking to my daughter alone and telling her that if she does not allow us to see gs then I will expose all her lies to bf about the ex. Now I just need to get some feedback about this plan. I realize I am highly emotional right now. I am not sure how clearly my thinking is because I know it is clouded by fear and sadness. The last thing I want to do is escalate the situation. I know this could go bad but I have to do something. I feel like not doing anything would be akin to abandoning gs. Threatening to expose my daughter just seems so, well wrong. Almost like extortion. I know she is manipulating everyone and a part of me thinks we have to confront these lies head on because they are hurting her son and the rest of the family. If she is allowed to constantly lie with no consequences, then why would she ever stop?  Another part of me thinks she may never forgive me for this breach of trust. I feel like I am stooping to her level by using tactics she would use. But what is the alternative? To do nothing?  Oh, what I would give for a crystal ball.

So tell me what you think. Am I making a huge mistake? Am I reacting instead of acting reasonably? I know I am nervous because I am rambling on. Have to remember to breathe. I will pray for wisdom and the right words to say.

[suchsadness]

Hi TT   

It is soo, soo hard when our pwBPD have children (our grandchildren) then use them to manipulate and control people.  I would be willing to bet that if your little gs was not in the picture, you would be able to let go of your dd's situation and let her deal with the choices she is making and live with her consequences.  New bf making the call about you seeing gs is also so inappropriate and controlling.  It is hard to know what to do and I totally understand that you would feel it would be wrong to expose you dd to the truth of the situation.  When you said "I am tired of being thrown under the bus whenever she gets caught in her lies. She keeps everyone involved mad at each other so that none of the anger turns toward her."... . this is exactly what my BPD dd35 did to me, my ex s-I-l, my other dd, my sister, etc. until she has such a WEB (way beyond triangle) that she will never be able to get out of it.  I think given the whole messy situation, that your first commitment should be to attempt to help gs with being safe, stable and connected to the people who love him.  We may not always be successful in protecting them, but you would feel better about things if you knew you tried your best to do what you can.  Unfortunately, parents (your dd) are the ones who have the ultimate say in the decisions about our gc.  It is a very difficult decision you are having to make about confronting dd and new bf, but do remember if you choose to do that the best approach may be "we are concerned about your situation and want to know that gs is safe... . perhaps even suggesting that until she has made some final decisions about where her relationship is going with new bf, maybe it would be best to have gs stay with you and dh.  My two cents... . given with   

Good luck TT and know that we are all thinking of you and hoping things turn around for your dd and gs.