Is This Typical BPD Trait?

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Is this a typical BPD trait?  So my GF is one to complain quite a bit and often feel others are rude, judgemental, and off putting to her.  It typically involves other women.  Side note, she very threatend by other women, often claiming in her battle with trust issues, "that she trust me but not other women."

Anyway when she is complaing to me about people and i dont quite see why she feel that way she gets upset.  For example, if i say something like "well did you try such and such" or "well maybe they just were having a bad day" or "do you think you may have come off a little disgruntle"... . this will get her mad and immediately she demands "why cant you just agree with me? Are you not on my side?  Why do you always disagree?"

I'm not necessarily flat out disagreeing with her, I'm just politely askinga question to get a full scope of possible factors involved in her being put off by someone else actions.

[jalbright]

Is this a typical BPD trait?  So my GF is one to complain quite a bit and often feel others are rude, judgemental, and off putting to her.  It typically involves other women.  Side note, she very threatend by other women, often claiming in her battle with trust issues, "that she trust me but not other women."

Anyway when she is complaing to me about people and i dont quite see why she feel that way she gets upset.  For example, if i say something like "well did you try such and such" or "well maybe they just were having a bad day" or "do you think you may have come off a little disgruntle"... . this will get her mad and immediately she demands "why cant you just agree with me? Are you not on my side?  Why do you always disagree?"

I'm not necessarily flat out disagreeing with her, I'm just politely askinga question to get a full scope of possible factors involved in her being put off by someone else actions.

[Rainyren]

My now EX uBPDbf is exactly like that. I juste smile and nod.

[artman.1]

 jalbright

     Please Read the Set of links to the right side of this page called: Deciding on a direction/Choosing a Path.  I would additionally recomment reading the lessons on the right side of the Staying Board.  I believe this information will answer your question for you, and a lot more.  Why Not!, It's Free... .

Art

[Buzz2406]

Hi Jalbright,

I had the self same discussion with my BPD wife last night. She couched this as a fault on my part and that I did not support her when she says that other women are conspiring against her. When I gently challenge the fact that I do not see these things she says 'That's because you're a typical man'. I see no harm in trying to gently reframe anothers perceptions and provide alternative explanations but that is in the context of someone who is able and willing to do that. Equally, I cannot stand by and hear someone become outrightly aggressive toward people who are my friends.

My wife will always do this and I would suggest is a common BPD trait from my experience and I am at a loss to give advice other than to try to reassure you that you are not alone in these experiences.

[Clearmind]

Her: "I cant stand it when she says that I have fat feet"

You: "I can see how that would upset you, it would upset me too"

Validation is not about agreeing its about seeing there is a remnant of truth in how she is feeling. We don't need to make them wrong and we don't need to correct their thinking. This is BPD - you validate her feelings.

Make sense?

Communication using validation. What it is; how to do it

[VeryFree]

I don't think women disliking other women is necessarely BPD.

Excuse me if I'm wrong (the ladies overhere), but IMHO a lot of women tend to be very competitive around each other. I see it at work and I see it in daily encounters: man-woman-contact is 'normal', man-man-contact is 'normal', but woman-woman-contact often is competitive and unnecessary bhity.

Again excuse me for this remarks: just things I noticed in my surrounding. Could well be only overhere 

[almost789]

That's true VeryScared about alot women I think, but the way you communicate with a person who has BPD and a regular person is different. People with BPD don't like it when you argue with their reason. You seemed to be in a way arguing with her reason, that's why they get mad. They're not mature, they don't see your point of view and they won't even try.

But Clearmind, that seems like it's not truthful. You're saying for him to say "that would upset me too" when in fact he doesn't feel that way at all. Seems false to me. I had a hard time with validation, like when my pwBPD called me a liar. I'm not, but I had to just kind of say "ok" to get him to shut up about it.

[Clearmind]

Dealing with accusations and blame is different to dealing with emotions that are not directed at you.

Sounds like a boundary needs to be set Summer.

[Murbay]

Summer, I agree with Clearmind and boundaries have to be set.

What I would say too is don't acknowledge the accusations regardless of trying to keep the peace. I went through hell and back for doing the same thing. I acknowledged things that weren't true and took responsibility for things I hadn't done and took a big hit for it. She used those accusations against friends and family and when I denied to rational people, I was then seen as a liar because technically I had lied about being a liar. 

That's why you need clear boundaries in as far as anything untrue and hurtful that is directed at you, try and find out why they feel that way and acknowledge the emotion behind it but don't accept the accusation or blame if you are not at fault, because it will trip you up and definitely come back to haunt you.

[almost789]

Sorry VeryScared the second part of my comment was suppose to be to jalbright.

Yes, Clearmind. This was at a time when we were just kind of getting back in touch it was really touchy situation and typically I would argue with him and say, no I am not. ( I know not good) So, I didn't want to do that, so I just said. Ok so we could move forward and him not run off. I did later explain to him that I did not lie and I explained the situation and he didn't rage about it.

Murbay, I know why he said it. He was clearly projecting on me. One of the reasons we broke up was I called him a liar and he took it highly offensively, it was the begining of our downfall. So, as we reconnected he repeatedly kept callling me a liar and I knew exactly why he was doing it. He also turned the tables on another situation that caused out breakup and turned the tables on me and started doing to me what I had done to him and I said "I see" and smiled. That calmed him.

But in Jalbrights case while I think he can validate that SHE feels that way, I don't think it's right to say, " that would upset me too"  when he clearly stated he doesn't understand why she'd feel that way.

[almost789]

Sometimes I find validation really difficult to do when you don't feel what they are feeling. Try to understand why she feels this way. Then when things calm down you can go back and use your logic to try to show her another view besides her own. But, not in the heat of it when the emotions are flying around.

[Clearmind]

Sometimes I find validation really difficult to do when you don't feel what they are feeling. Try to understand why she feels this way. Then when things calm down you can go back and use your logic to try to show her another view besides her own. But, not in the heat of it when the emotions are flying around.

Exactly - validation is used in the moment. When things are calmer you can talk.

BPD or not we really just want to be heard - we don't want the problem solved.

[almost789]

True

[Clearmind]

I'm not necessarily flat out disagreeing with her, I'm just politely askinga question to get a full scope of possible factors involved in her being put off by someone else actions.

jal, we may have gotten off your topic

I can understand you are wanting to help however when already feeling annoyed asking questions can be invalidating... . are you able to listen and validate? You may find she settles herself a lot quicker.

[musicfan42]

I have huge issues with the whole concept of validation... .

I don't think validation is good for the non's emotional well being in the long term. It may be a tool that works in the short term but eventually, I think that any non will just feel a lot of anger and resentment towards the borderline in their life. I don't think borderlines have the emotional capacity to validate a non's point of view-that a non is just required to give give give... . that there's no reciprocity in the equation whatsoever.

I think that mindfulness skills are more effective-because they're more about my peace of mind as opposed to the borderline's. I know that when I practice the mindfulness skills, that they will work... . I think that mindfulness skills work equally well as validation with a borderline because if you stay calm, then they're more likely to stay calm. Whereas if you get angry, then a borderline will just get angry right back.

[almost789]

I agree music fan, it is emotionally difficult to validate, validate validate and not have any in return and instead feel guilt for not  "validating" right or not 'validating' enough... . if only you could validate better ... . then things will improve for you... . ughhh... . I found that mine didn't necessarily have to be validated too much as long as I remain calm. Sometimes the validation seemed to irritate him. It can sometimes come across as condescending especially once they calm down and realize they were being immature and then you were validating it.

[Clearmind]

Guys, you are missing the aim of validation! Not just Borderlines need validating - we all need it. You receive validation posting on bpdfamily!

It makes you feel good, makes you feel like you are not the crazy one.

Validation is for anyone - to not validate is controlling - we cannot control or want to control how another person feels. We are not them.

Validation is used so we don't jump into fix it mode

SET is used to speak truth

Different tools for different things you want to convey.

Why is it difficult to validate? Its your partner - don't you want them to feel OK?

[Murbay]

I don't think it is so much the validation that is the issue Clearmind, but more the reaction to the validation.

I know in my case, validation actually made the situation worse and caused rage outbursts to the point I actually felt lost and in a constant lose-lose situation. In a healthy relationship, you can validate those feelings, discuss the situation, learn from it and move forward. It's a lot harder to navigate when you know that if you don't validate it causes an outburst and if you do validate, it causes an outburst.

What she wanted from me was to take responsibility for something that was not mine to do and even just validating the feelings gave her the impression I was taking responsibility for something that would then be twisted back at me. There was no clear boundary between feelings and facts so validating one, meant you were also accepting responsibility.

[Clearmind]

Murbray you would use SET here not validation.

TOOLS: S.E.T. - Support, Empathy and Truth

Communication tools (SET, PUVAS, DEARMAN)

TOOLS: Stop Invalidating Your Partner (or the BPD person in your life)

[almost789]

Yes, I do want him to feel ok. It's just that the things they do don't really deserve validation. Im not used to validating bad behavior. When he goes silent on me for a week and ignores me, it's hard to validate that.  Im getting better at validating the "feeling" they may have associated with that. But what about me? What about my feelings? What about the fact that you didn't speak to me for a week? or two? See... . Is that selfish. I don't think it is. Im just whining.

[musicfan42]

Yes, I do want him to feel ok. It's just that the things they do don't really deserve validation. Im not used to validating bad behavior. When he goes silent on me for a week and ignores me, it's hard to validate that.  Im getting better at validating the "feeling" they may have associated with that. But what about me? What about my feelings? What about the fact that you didn't speak to me for a week? or two? See... . Is that selfish. I don't think it is. Im just whining.

No-I don't think you're whining SummerT321... . this is my issue with validating borderlines. You're right-"what about my feelings?" You're not selfish-you just want some reciprocity... . you feel that you validate him so you would like some validation in return. You would like him to say "yes, I can see why you would feel annoyed when I was silent for that week". That's only natural. If he said that, then I don't think you would feel as annoyed-you'd think "oh at least he's trying to see my point of view" but as it stands, you just feel like you're putting all the work in and not getting anything in return... . being taken for granted.

[musicfan42]

Yeah I agree with you MontyD-ultimately you just have to go no contact and get on with your own life. That's what I had to do with my own BPD father. Things do get better though once you're no contact... . you can finally think straight and focus on your own emotional needs... . at least that's my experience of it anyways

[VeryFree]

I think you should look at your own goals with your SO and make your own choices.

We know they have a mental illness. We know they won't change. If we want to continu living with them we will have to adapt. We can try to make things more liveable for us and them by using the different tools at the appropriate moments. Sometimes that is validation, other times SET, and so on.

We will have to accept that this is not normal communication. Clearmind is right that we all need validation, but with a BPD there is no other way, 'never'.

The question is if this is what you can and want to give for your SO. If so, practise! In not, make your choices.

[almost789]

Thanks Monty for your story, sad but true. You can't validate a pwBPD and take away the core of their disorder. I believe she turned on you because it was too comfortable and she loved you too much. This triggers their abandonment fears everytime. They will find something bad about you, and then split you, and leave or cause you to leave. All subconsious. Classic!

This is why I think it is futile to try to be in a love/romantic relationship with a pwBPD who is not in treatment. They can get better, but if they don't want to or cannot accept treatment then I don't think they should even be in a relationship.

[KellyO]

When you say we can adapt, I see that as being able to tolerate, somewhat, being in an abusive relationship, emotionally abusive.  In essence, you are saying that we adapt to their demands and needs while deigning our own needs.  How can one earn, ask, or demand love, companionship, intimacy from anyone, let alone a pwBPD.  If they don't want to give or can't give, you miss out. Best thing then is to move on.  

I couldn't agree more. I often feel that these relationships should be called with right name: abusive. They are abusive. Some of us were physically, verbally and emotionally abused, some only emotionally. But we were abused. And accepting abuse is enabling. If people would not accept ANY kind of abuse, disordered people would eventually have to face themselves because there wouldn't be any other options. My opinion is that staying with disordered person is enabling. But of course I understand people stay for many reasons. It just is not life. It is not life if you have to think what you say every waking hour, try to validate (and never get validated), try to be the only sane person in the relationship where you have 200% of all responsibility and other half has none.

I genuinely feel so sorry for people who think they really have to stay and take all that is thrown to them, try to keep the card house up and hope every morning it will not crash today. I have been one of those people and it was awful, awful way to live and be a human being. I felt I had no dignity, no worth, nothing left. Getting out of there and getting this wonderful, peaceful life and this peace of mind is something I will never give up, there can't be so much love in me for another human being that I wouldn't love myself more and this life I have now.

[Chazz]

I agree completely, MontyD and KellyO. The right name for these relationships is abusive.

I tried to follow the advice and suggestions on the "Staying" forum for a year and a half. It only got me more abused and depleted. At this point, I question if offering management techniques to people in r/s with BPDs who are NOT in intensive therapy is the humane thing to do.

I suppose one can become adept at managing abuse in an intimate relationship, but why?   

[Murbay]

Very good point chazz and I would have to agree to a certain extent.

I guess everybody is different and some relationships might respond better to the advice. However, I think the advice given for those "staying" it helps validate that they aren't going mad and long term, at least they can either walk away or be cast aside, knowing they did everything possible and maybe not feel as devastated about it.

I would have to agree that an abusive relationship is not the best place to be. I know for myself how and why I got caught up in it and I also stayed for selfish reasons. Part of me desperately wanted to help her as though she would wake up one morning and see the light, the other part of me stayed for the children because I knew that if I walked away, how destructive she would be and cut off the contact. Had we just been a couple without children involved, I would have been the one to walk away.

My T was very patient with my insistence that I could help her, I think because he saw the desperation on my face. Not just for me but for the children too. He repeatedly told me she wasn't going to change because she didn't feel she was the one who needed to change. Everything that happened was down to everybody else or fate but never her responsibility.

I guess some of us stayed longer than we should have done in the hope that something triggered in their minds that they wanted to change or start to accept who they were, just as we accepted our roles within the relationship.

[Clearmind]

This is the undecided board meaning you are undecided and I know being at this stage is really hard.

What is needed to make your relationship better? To understand and accept you partner is BPD and there will be limitations. To understand the role you play in the dynamic and how to better communicate/set boundaries/see how we contribute.

[KellyO]

Many people say they try because of children. My parents tried too, and it took me 40 years to get over that trying. I was aftraid of dark until I was over 30 years old. So much that I couldn't sleep alone.

My father was very, very ill person. He was a psychopath, but that time term was unknown. Let me give you example: when he get final diagnose after years in mental institutes (he loved them, so much attention!), he told my mother he now can kill her and no one can do anything about it, because he is officially mentally ill. I witnessed the beatings 'till my mother divorced when I was 12, and once after that (and that was very bad time). I got beaten too. My sister did not, and she still thinks our childhood was not so bad. I don't have a single person who would validate me and my experience, so it took a long time for me to validate my own childhood to myself!

I got deeply damaged. Keeping up appearance is very important to my mother, so me being damaged was my own fault. I never got help. I just now realised I have been depressed all my life, and still tried to manage in this world like others. I just blaimed myself that it is my own fault that it is so hard for me, others seem to blaze through this life with such ease and I'm struggling every day, I'm jus a bad person, I must try harder.

I wrote this to people who try to stay because of children. I have red stories about how disordered person treats children terribly and still the sane person does not take children and leave for good. If you say you stay for children think again, because your children will not thank you. I have nothing to do with my mother anymore. She never gave me any care, instead she turned all her shame to me and made me carry it. If I wouldn't have cut all ties to her, I would have never get healthy. My mother always thinks that children don't remember. I remember my first beating from age 4. I had to sit down with it, be again the 4 year old, take the beating again in my mind, feel all the things I was not allowed to feel that time because there was not single person for me, and let go and forgive. Don't deceive yourselves by thinking that children will forget.

And your children understand and see more you know. And children tend to blame themselves for what ever happenes. It is crazy, but that is actually thruth that any professional can tell you. They grow up being adults with shame, guilt, anxiety and depression. They get disordered themselves or they find disordered partners because they coped by getting codependent.

My father made suicide at age 42. He had messed his life so badly he hit the wall.

[Vanillaradio]

Well, let me just jump in for a sec. Try this one on for size, Yes, my SO has BP but so does my 12 year old step-son and my 25 year oldest daughter. We have 7 total. We are a blended step-family, coming from addiction/alcoholism and domestic abuse past marriages, suicide by a past spouse 3 years ago and sexual abuse by the same past spouse. Folks, I am rolling in it. I may think of throwing in the towel often. I mean I didn't break this, I can't fix this and damn it, this will suck the very life out of you if you don't guard yourself. BUT, while this may be applicable to my SO, it is not to my children. You can't stop being their mom. So, that is a lifetime commitment to getting educated and being supportive. Honestly, most days I think of him as another child anymore. As the 12 year old learns mindfulness in therapy, he is seemingly gaining more control and maturity than his dad. I chalk that up to green wood bends easier and the patterns are less ingrained. SO cannot be blamed for brain structures and chemicals. SO IS responsible to  seek treatment and follow treatment plan. After 3 years of HELL, the diagnosis is a relief and a place to start. But I watch... . may not be good... . but I watch. If I ever feel am being played, I would make different choices. Recovery is a journey and I expect set backs but my boundary is clear. I do not blame your for genetics and trauma, I hold you responsible to accept/change through DBT/schema etc. I am trying to learn all I can as I am surrounded by BPDers in my life. It has to be for a reason. Plus, I have to help family, friends and the other kids try to fathom BPD and separate personal responsibility from brain structure and chemicals. All that to say this... . it is abusive. If they will not accept their diagnosis and seek help... . RUN and take the babies with you. Therapy is the only hope and without that I would have left long ago. I can tolerate the outbursts now because we are on a path, there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Without that, good grief, you are standing in the dark waiting for the next train to hit you and your children. Just read the books on children who grew up with untreated BP parents and you would have NO doubt what is right. Try whatever it takes to get them into therapy. Buy the books, play the audio books, print out info and give it to them and to all your family, Rabbi, priest, pastor. Because when we do leave and they still have no therapy, their life is in danger, high functioner or low or they will continue the abuse of the children at visitation and probably catch someone new and they will be in our shoes. To me it is like alcoholism, didn't ask for the gene but must take responsibility for the choices. Everyone knows alcoholism is deadly so it is dealt with very seriously by family, friends and counselors. Well, BPD is deadly too, So silence be damned, even if I do leave, everyone will get in print what BPD is and the treatment and the statistics without treatment. I will leave no place to hide in denial because silence kills. People can get pissed or whatever but I would be leaving with a clear conscience. I made a commitment. He is trying. I am staying. But if I were you guys... . sad but true, knowing what I know, untreated BP is a death sentence for all involved, if not physically then mentally, emotionally and spiritually. There is hope and recovery available but if they don't choose to embrace this hope for life... . they are choosing a death spiral. My advice... . don't take yourself and your kids down too.   Sorry if this brutal but it is honestly how I view it.