Setting Boundaries that a BPDH will accept.

[SadWifeofBPD]

The below quotes are from a different thread, but those who are Undecided face the same issues.

There is a difference between listening and agreeing.

[url=https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-validation]Validation[/b][/url] is all about showing that you hear him and understand what he is feeling. You don't have to agree with what he says to validate that you understand his feelings.

I struggle with this because my BPDH views any kind of listening (that doesn't contradict what he's saying) as agreeing with him.  So, when he talks to me, our kids, his T, his friends, his relatives and he tells some crazy story, if they listen to him without much or any confrontation he firmly believes that they are agreeing with him.   He'll come home from work and say, I told 25 people about our argument (where he was clearly wrong) and they think you're wrong and crazy.  OF course, I doubt that he tells these stories honestly, but I also think that his audience probably just quietly nods while he drones on, and he takes that as "agreement."  

He has done the same with his T.  He'll come home and say "my T thinks you're evil" or "my T thinks you're crazy."  When I'm pretty certain that he has said those things and the T is just being nice and "validating" and he takes that as complete agreement.  

In this case, he really feels that you don't listen to him or pay attention to him. His FEELINGS are real here, whether this is true or not. He genuinely feels hurt by this, that is real too. (All of this would apply to a healthy person or a pwBPD)

Yes, he's feeling hurt (justified or unjustified).  but, after he's complained so much that he's repeating himself and not letting me get a word in edgewise, I have to escape.

When he's feeling hurt, he starts to verbally attack you. This is where the boundary comes in:

Here's my recommendation for you: Start with the boundary.

Enforcing it with "I" statements is very helpful. When the criticism of you starts, you can say "I cannot handle this verbal abuse now." or "I need can't deal with this argument" or something like that. (You are saying something about your feelings instead of about his behavior, which is harder for him to argue/disagree with. Of course he can and likely will try, especially at first)

I have tried that.  H then starts yelling that I know that I'm wrong so that's why I'm trying to escape.  And, then when I leave, he calls and calls and tells me that "I'm frustrating him."  If I don't answer the calls, then he texts and blackmails me.

As a bonus tip, try saying that you will go away for a fixed period of time and honor it. The fear of abandonment can be triggered by just leaving. If they know it is only for a fixed time, it is easier to deal with. If you do this, STICK TO IT. Come back when you say you will. If the verbal abuse resumes, you can leave again; I'd recommend doing it for a longer time the next time, since it wasn't long enough for him to calm down.

The crux of this is that his feelings are real--but YOU don't do either of you any good by staying around and letting him berate you. It is an unhealthy coping mechanism for him, and it beats down your self-worth... .  lose-lose. You cannot stop him from talking about how bad you are, but you can stop subjecting yourself to it.

Read more about this:

How to take a time out

Part two... .  work on validating him. Note that you can do this at any time, not just when he is getting dysregulated. It is much easier and much more effective when he isn't. Sometimes it can prevent the dysregulated episode.

I'm still working on [url=https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-validation]validation[/b][/url]--I think it could be a life-work for me, as I don't feel like a natural at it... .  and I know it works very well with everybody in my life, BPD or not. We've got a workshop on that too:

Communication using [url=https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-validation]validation[/b][/url]. What it is; how to do it

One last bit--If I didn't say it before, mindfulness practice isn't just for him. I highly recommend it for you. Especially because you can simply choose to do it yourself, whereas you cannot make him do anything!

Hope this helps!

GK

[tuum est61]

Hi Sadwife,

The quotes you excerpted from others - GK it seems - parallel anything I would say to you.  

Your husband is indeed extremely challenging but he's not behaving any differently from many of the persons with BPD that other members talk about here. Sounds much like my W.  She definitely believes that once she says something and there isnt a knock down drag out fight over it, i must have agreed with her.    

i have learned to become more explicit to separate my facts from their "facts."   I actually say, "I completely get how you would see things that way.  I have my own opinions about it and don't agree."  And leave it there.  Theres no point and no value in trying to change their mind regarding their stories.    I've also learned that a lot of what they claimed to have said and the "25 people" they told it to may not have ocurred - somewhat as you suspect.  So that's even more reason not to try to "clear up" the confusion.  And where their "stories" are completely unfair to me and I can't get a "word in edgewise", I also set a boundary by leaving - which you've said you do yourself.  

After you set a boundary, your partner will feel frustruated. So acknowledge that with some validation.  "I can see I am frustrating you." And then go back to a boundary and set a boundary by not answering the blackmailing texts.  Setting boundaries is for you - not for the person with BPD.  A good boundary is one that has no dependence whatsoever on "acceptance" by the person with BPD.  It is YOUR boundary and yours alone.  Bouncing back and forth between validation and boundary setting can be done indefinitely - you may not get him to accept it but you will wear him out. 

Detaching from the emotional ups and downs your H is feeling, validation, and boundary setting are still the advice we will give you SadWife.  

[SadWifeofBPD]

have learned to become more explicit to separate my facts from their "facts."   I actually say, "I completely get how you would see things that way.  I have my own opinions about it and don't agree."  And

In the past, I have said things like, "let's just agree to disagree.  Each of us has a different opinion." 

But, no, that's not tolerated. 

[tuum est61]

have learned to become more explicit to separate my facts from their "facts."   I actually say, "I completely get how you would see things that way.  I have my own opinions about it and don't agree."  And

In the past, I have said things like, "let's just agree to disagree.  Each of us has a different opinion." 

But, no, that's not tolerated. 

"Lets agree to disagree" is not boundary setting since you are asking for agreement. Even the statement "Each of us has our own opinion" is too sterile and non-validating since it shows no empathy for how your husband feels.

I get that the differences are subtle and saying the things the "right" way is hard to do and seems ridiculous.

It matters not whether he "tolerates" your boundaries. They are yours and yours alone.

[SadWifeofBPD]

have learned to become more explicit to separate my facts from their "facts."   I actually say, "I completely get how you would see things that way.  I have my own opinions about it and don't agree."  And

In the past, I have said things like, "let's just agree to disagree.  Each of us has a different opinion." 

But, no, that's not tolerated. 

"Lets agree to disagree" is not boundary setting since you are asking for agreement. Even the statement "Each of us has our own opinion" is too sterile and non-validating since it shows no empathy for how your husband feels.

I get that the differences are subtle and saying the things the "right" way is hard to do and seems ridiculous.

It matters not whether he "tolerates" your boundaries. They are yours and yours alone.

Ok, I see the subtle difference.

After you set a boundary, your partner will feel frustruated. So acknowledge that with some validation.  "I can see I am frustrating you

Now, this I have said and his response is that I'm "frustrating him on purpose" and that I'm being "passive aggressive." 

[tuum est61]

After you set a boundary, your partner will feel frustruated. So acknowledge that with some validation.  "I can see I am frustrating you

Now, this I have said and his response is that I'm "frustrating him on purpose" and that I'm being "passive aggressive." 

Hah! It would be so much fun to say to him "nothing like a little projection, dear?"  But you shouldn't.  

"It has to be very difficult for you to think I am frustrating you on purpose."

The see-saw between validation and boundary setting can go on until equilibrium is reached or someone wears out.  At least a ridiculous fight about a ridiculous topic is averted. I am not suggesting this is ideal - but I think it's better. No one "wins" arguments using logic against feeling. When your H finally stops he won't be "better" but you will be.

[SadWifeofBPD]

No one "wins" arguments using logic against feeling. When your H finally stops he won't be "better" but you will be.

I can see that. 

Yes, I can understand saying things like: "It has to be difficult to think that I'm frustrating you on purpose.  I really am not trying to do that."   

this is all so frustrating because he truly believes that I passive-aggressively frustrate him all the time. 

[tuum est61]

This is hard Sadwife, but I think you are seeing some of the potential benefits.  I am afraid I cant let you off adding the  "I really am not trying to do that."  Because in his mind you ARE trying to be passive aggressive - saying you aren't will be invalidating.

Don't get me wrong.  I cant help but defend myself sometimes - it still seems unnatural to not do so, but recognize it doesn't contribute much when your BPD partner is in the middle of their feelings fest.  

You will have to get used to your frustration since your H will likely feel that your efforts at validation and boundary setting are passive-aggresive behaviour.  You should find, however, that your frustration will be superseded by other feelings of relief that you aren't engaging in the same cycle of conflict any longer.

I've also learned thru experience that my W doesnt actually believe everything she says in the heat of the moment.  That makes it a little easier to just validate that particular feeling that she's holding at the time.  Knowing it will go away means theres no need to be defensive anyway.  

[SadWifeofBPD]

This is hard Sadwife, but I think you are seeing some of the potential benefits.  I am afraid I cant let you off adding the  "I really am not trying to do that."  Because in his mind you ARE trying to be passive aggressive - saying you aren't will be invalidating.

Don't get me wrong.  I cant help but defend myself sometimes - it still seems unnatural to not do so, but recognize it doesn't contribute much when your BPD partner is in the middle of their feelings fest.  

I can see your point.  The reason that I defend myself is because when I don't, H notices and then insists that since I'm not defending myself, then that means that he's right and that's "proof" that I'm doing whatever he's claiming.  

I know I can't win either way.  A T pointed this out to H many years ago that H has me in a

"can't win either way" situation.  If I help him with car directions, then I'm wrong because he "knows that a turn is coming up!"  But, if I don't help him and he misses a turn or gets lost, then I'm wrong for not "helping him."   When the T pointed several examples out to H, H agreed (because he's often reasonable in front of Ts or 3rd parties because he doesn't want to look foolish to THEM).  However, H didn't learn from it.  

As for car directions, now I WAIT until it's super obvious that he going to miss a turn (he's in the wrong lane or the turn is super close and he's not slowing down), so then he can't (lie) claim that he was planning on turning there and that I was wrong for speaking up.    

Of course, now I realize that by doing that, I may have avoided an immediate insult, BUT the "pain" of nearly making a mistake is too much for H and then that starts him on the path to eventually dysregulate - sometimes hours or days later.  

H has an issue with "being perfect."   After we were married, I learned that when he was a child, the neighborhood kids called him "King Perfect" because he had to be right all the time, was a horrible sore loser, and couldn't admit mistakes.  

You will have to get used to your frustration since your H will likely feel that your efforts at validation and boundary setting are passive-aggresive behaviour.  You should find, however, that your frustration will be superseded by other feelings of relief that you aren't engaging in the same cycle of conflict any longer.

I've also learned thru experience that my W doesnt actually believe everything she says in the heat of the moment.  That makes it a little easier to just validate that particular feeling that she's holding at the time.  Knowing it will go away means theres no need to be defensive anyway.  

I realize that H doesn't really believe the awful things he says.  One of our cats died from a sudden-onset autoimmune disorder which is actually similar to what H's dad died from.  At the time, H readily admitted that there was no way to save our cat.  Yet, a month later, when dysregulated, he said it was all my fault that the cat died.

[tuum est61]

As for car directions, now I WAIT until it's super obvious that he going to miss a turn (he's in the wrong lane or the turn is super close and he's not slowing down), so then he can't (lie) claim that he was planning on turning there and that I was wrong for speaking up.    

Of course, now I realize that by doing that, I may have avoided an immediate insult, BUT the "pain" of nearly making a mistake is too much for H and then that starts him on the path to eventually dysregulate - sometimes hours or days later

Okay, so it doesn't avoid dysregulation to tell him about the turn in advance, or let him drive past, or in fact to tell him "right at the last moment " - which BTW sounds a little scary - so what to do next - aside from refusing to drive with him?

I realize that H doesn't really believe the awful things he says.  One of our cats died from a sudden-onset autoimmune disorder which is actually similar to what H's dad died from.  At the time, H readily admitted that there was no way to save our cat.  Yet, a month later, when dysregulated, he said it was all my fault that the cat died.

It is important for your own sanity to recognize when they are dysregulating and adjust your responses appropriately.  It seems you have that figured out.

[Louise7777]

Hi SadWife!

Im glad you are posting again. I was worried about you. How are you doing? Last time I read you you were separated and I was worried about your safety.

I hope all is well at your side! 

[SadWifeofBPD]

Okay, so it doesn't avoid dysregulation to tell him about the turn in advance, or let him drive past, or in fact to tell him "right at the last moment " - which BTW sounds a little scary - so what to do next - aside from refusing to drive with him?

I would love to refuse, but that would make him FURIOUS!  He makes a huge deal out of "trust".    Don't know if that's a BPD thing, but if I appear that I don't "trust" him or trust what he's saying or doing, then that's just a reason for him to say, "I can't stay married to someone who doesn't trust me."   Ugh... . it's not like I'm accusing him of cheating! 

I do have a repetoire of sayings that help prevent dysregulation while driving.  If the car in front of us is slowing down and H doesn't seem to notice, I can NOT say, "hey, that car is slowing down", because he'll bark, "I know that!"    BUT, I can say, "I wonder why that car is slowing down."

I am adamant, though, that I will speak up if I think an accident might occur.  I have been 100% firm to H about that.  I've firmly said that even if he's aware of the accident-potential, I will speak up because the cost is too great if he somehow didn't see it.   H has been grateful that I pointed out a young girl who ran into the street from my side of the car and H didn't see her.  He would have hit her if I hadn't spoken up.  H knows that he never would have recovered if he had hit a child with his car. 

That said, I know that they paint themselves White or Black and H prefers to be in the White position.  When he's done something that is "bad" (gets a speeding tix, gets reprimanded at work, breaks something), then he becomes VERY upset because none of that squares with his desire to be White/perfect.   

One of my H's favorite mantras (which he says nearly daily) is:   I do everything right, yet the world still $hits on me.   or, "I did everything right about getting to sleep early, but I still couldn't get to sleep."   Or "I did everything right with XXXX, and it still diden't work out."   

The fact is that there are a number of things he did wrong (human mistakes or impulsive mistakes) but he can't accept that, and if anyone mentions them, then that annoys the heck out of him.

[tuum est61]

I would love to refuse, but that would make him FURIOUS!  He makes a huge deal out of "trust".    :)on't know if that's a BPD thing, but if I appear that I don't "trust" him or trust what he's saying or doing, then that's just a reason for him to say, "I can't stay married to someone who doesn't trust me."   Ugh... . it's not like I'm accusing him of cheating!  

Making a policy about not riding with him is hardly an option, which is why I said "aside from refusing to drive with him."  It's kinda the thing married people are obligated to do - and it shouldn't be too hard to validate your husbands feelings on the matter.  But you know, you don't have to ride with him all the time.

Your explanation brings up something that is prevalent to every response you provide. You note in this case he would be FURIOUS with you.  You seem to still be enmeshed with his feelings in nearly every situation.  I get why you are, because you end up being the target of his furor if you don't"cater" to them. But that's we're boundaries come in.  The second he begins his verbal tirade, you make like a tree and leave.  That will infuriate him further but it is your only recourse. It is the thing you can do to stop the cycle of conflict and make yourself feel better - even if "better" is only a different kind of bad.  I love my wife.  I used to hate/avoid  setting boundaries when she verbally abused me.  She claimed I was running away and I still don't like  leaving, but the bottom line is that it is change that WORKS. Eventually even your partners behavior can change.  An example... .

Several weeks ago - my W and I went grocery shopping. She was working me over before we got in the store - cant remember about what and continued to do so in the store. At one point she asked for the keys - I had driven - so I gave them to her and left to walk home. She phoned a few times as I walked - and eventually I agreed to have her pick me up - although I had neat reached home.  We went back to the store and resumed shopping. But she wasn't finished and continued to verbally abuse me so I left again. This time I walked all the way home. After I got home we said nothing about the event and had a decent eve. I simply refused to ramp up my emotions to match hers and hers came down on their own.  I got exercise.  A "win-win".  

We grocery shopped together last week and again today - with no meltdowns.  Interestingly today she commented/joked as we got in the vehicle with our groceries that "you didn't have to walk home twice today."   It takes time and patience to effect change on how you do things but THEY will eventually make some changes too - if you persevere with setting boundaries, validation, and separating from their emotions.  My W was furious - as well as completely confused why I would walk home twice - but her joking about it today tells me she actually finally gets why I did.  

My recommendation is to let him drive past the exits.  And set a boundary if he tries to blame you for it.  And somehow trust me that it works.