Again

[Mind]

My stbexh has visitation scheduled for pickup at a specific time for the weekend.  Today, he decided to pick up my child early at school without me knowing or consenting. He threatened to call the police if they wouldn't comply.    He says he's picking up my other child later on.  His time doesn't start until pickup. I know nothing about any change to the schedule!  I have a call in to my L to find out what course of action should be taken. Once again, I'm caught off guard by his erratic behavior.  And he is requesting more visitation for summer.  It cannot look good if you don't follow the visitation rules. 

[marbleloser]

I did the same.Without a custody order,there's nothing that can be done.He doesn't have to ask you for permission.

What visitation rules is it? If it's a standing order,it's not a court order.

"It cannot look good if you don't follow the visitation rules"

Actually,it doesn't look good when you're trying to get minimum visitation for the other parent.It looks controlling and alienating.

I got the same reaction,btw.In the end,nothing was done,because it couldn't be done.

"Today, he decided to pick up my child early at school without me knowing "

It's "our" child.Not yours,not his.You both were there when the kids were conceived.

I know you have a distaste for him.My ex and I both do for each other as well,but the kids need and deserve both parents,unless one's been neglecting or abusive of them.

Step back,take a deep breath.Is it the end of the world because he picked them up a bit early?

I'll tell you what my atty told my stbx."Is it about the rules,or the best interest of the children?"

I gave you the same advice regarding him having visitation,but not physically having custody of them.You can do the same.

[ForeverDad]

We had our court date yesterday... .   I was granted occupancy of the house... .   We put in for the supervised visits.  That got denied immediately.  He will have the kids every other weekend and one night for an hour and 45 minutes.

Did the court order include a parenting schedule specifying exchange times?  If so, then you had every right to say No.  He would have been emotionally pressuring you with nothing on his side other than his knowledge of you and your past responses to his demands.  If there is an order, he could call the police as often as he wants and the police would side with the written order 100% and likely add that if he wanted it different then he handle that with the court and not the police.

However, I do know that the police prefer to smooth things over if they can and even though you would have an order on your side they could still suggest you (the reasonable person) defuse the incident.  That's their effective mandate, defuse the incident somehow, even if they have to cart someone off, and then them to fix it in court.

If there is an order and he proceeded to violate the order - without your permission - then YOU have every right to call the police.  But if he managed to intimidate you into a concession, you probably can't call the police to complain and get a police report because you did let him do it.

While picking the children up early wasn't the end of the world, it likely was him trying to weaken the boundaries of the order.  That is what's at stake here.  How do you maintain the boundaries (AKA schedule) the court set for you parents?

[Mind]

Yes it did.  Specific time for the pickup and location.

[ForeverDad]

He threatened to call the police if they wouldn't comply.

So he got the school, daycare or sitter involved?  That's not good but happens with high conflict cases, it did with me.  I had one daycare file then withdraw a harassment case against my ex, another "withdrew services" after an 'incident' occurred.

Be sure that school or facility has a copy of the current order.  While you shouldn't be pressured by your caregivers to appease the ex, pressure does happen because they want to avoid incidents, it could affect their business, staff and other children present.

[Small Medium]

I'm a bit confused here.  You have children with the man, you post routinely regarding his BPD, yet you are CAUGHT OFF GUARD?  By now you should be able to expect the unexpected.  Depending on what state you are in, you might  want to get help with coping skills because in most states L's, Judges, Courts see right through certain behaviors and are trained to sense an unwillingness on one or both parent to come to a "reasonable" solution.  Complaining about minor incidents are always costly, and the courts find them "a useless waste of their time".

[marbleloser]

"No; custody hasn't been determined"

That's all that needs to be said.With no custody order he can do exactly what he did.I was instructed by my atty to do the same.The school can't stop him and if they had,he could have them arrested for kidnapping and custodial interference.

Parental rights and all.I guarantee his atty told him to do this.

[marbleloser]

Here's what he's doing.He's attempting defacto full custody of the children.All he has to do now is not give them back.He's establishing status quo and has broken no law,since no custody order is in place.

Nothing against you Sparkle.This is how it's done when a stbx refuses time with the kids and only lets the other have minimum time.

You'll know if he doesn't bring them back at the appointed time that he's doing that.

I know it's hard on you and your emotions are running high.Take time to breathe.

Ask to speak with the kids.It'll help you calm down some and let you know they're ok.

If he refuses to let you talk to them at all this weekend,be sure to document it.That will show alienation.

[ForeverDad]

We had our court date yesterday... .   I was granted occupancy of the house... .   We put in for the supervised visits.  That got denied immediately.  He will have the kids every other weekend and one night for an hour and 45 minutes.

Did the court order include a parenting schedule specifying exchange times?

Yes it did.  Specific time for the pickup and location.

There may be some confusion here in the responses?  There IS a parenting time schedule even if custody isn't resolved.  Custody and the parenting time schedule are two different things.

Custody is often not awarded, determined or ordered until the divorce decree.  During the divorce "temporary" custody is generally assigned to the parent having majority time.  I'm sure there are variations from state to state, county to county and even between different judges or magistrates.  But the point is that "final" custody is still up in the air as it usually is at this point.

However, you have a parenting time schedule with exchanges times and locations specified in writing.  So then follow it.  Don't be guilted or pressured.  All you have to say is "No, I don't agree to an early exchange or pickup, I will be following the order closely unless there is an urgent need to make an exception.  This is not an exceptional event meriting a deviation from the order so the exchange is at the regular time."  Then if he fails to follow the order and you don't agree to his deviation, then you be the one to call the police and get a report at the very least.  (Be aware that this strictness can go both ways, if you ever wanted a deviation from the written schedule then he would have the same right to decline.)

[Mind]

Yes, exactly FD. He went against the order and picked them up. I notified my attorney and she said that since its his weekend it wouldn't warrant a police call because he'd be getting the kids that night anyways. She said we'd send a letter; not sure if its a 'please follow the time schedule' warning or what it will state. He did cause a scene at the school and threatened a staff person. Like said, it's about him weakening the order and I believe he was mad that I didn't agree to his summer plan, hence the sudden school pickup to get back at me. It's truly him losing control.

[ForeverDad]

Try to get written documentation about the incident from the school.  Without it, it's very nearly your word against his.  (This is where having a voice recorder or a similar electronic recorder come in very handy in case others don't want to help you document.)

Be forewarned that I lost a daycare due to a scene, probably over an early pick-up too, but daycare refused to tell me what happened, the manager pointed to the clause in the contract that stated the would not get involved in custody or marital conflict.  They didn't want to get drawn into court.  So they gave me notice that "their services were withdrawn" at the end of the week.

I lost the pediatrician too when my ex raged at the staff, the letter used the same phrase, "we are withdrawing our services as of... . "

[marbleloser]

":)uring the divorce "temporary" custody is generally assigned to the parent having majority time. "

That would require a hearing.

Have you had a temp hearing Sparkle?

We have a visitation schedule with times and days as well,but have had no hearing,so nobody is in custody at the moment specifically.Either can claim they were in custody of the kids and my stbx did,even though I had them half the time at least.

So,my atty advised the same thing.Go to school and get them.Just a few weeks ago I went and got one who was sick and wasn't in her custody,even though it wasn't my time.I was threatened with police,yada,yada,yada.In the end.Nothing she could do and I kept him.

[marbleloser]

This is where most make a mistake.If there's no signed order(pendente lite or temp) by the judge,stating that "Sparkle" is primary parent,or her "H" is primary,then it's still undetermined.

If Sparkles stbx had conceded to the visitation schedule,then he would be conceding that Sparkle is the primary custodian of the kids.Her atty could then state that since he abided by the schedule,that he was agreeing that she was primary custodian.

He's setting it up so that he can show he doesn't agree that she's primary.Otherwise,he'd have a difficult time fighting it in court.

Sparkle,your atty advised you correctly.If you show that you're angry that he picked up the kids just a little bit early,then he'd be able to use that to show that you're controlling,alienating,and un-cooperative as far as co-parenting goes.Not calling the police was a good move.

[Matt]

A couple of suggestions - surely best to keep consulting your lawyer and getting her to inform the opposing lawyer in writing what is going on.

One might be a clear e-mail, with your lawyer's input.  I find it best to put it in terms of what I will do, and keep it as simple as possible.

From:  Sparkle

To:  stbX

cc:  Sparkle's L (who should forward it to stbX's L)

re:  Exchanges.

Exchange times are given in our temporary orders.  I have attached that page for your reference.

If you pick up the kids at a different time than stated in the temporary orders, I will take appropriate legal action based on advice from my attorney.  This may include contacting the police, and/or informing the court, and/or asking for a court order such as contempt or a restraining order.

No discussion of what occurred.  No argument about what the temporary orders should say.  Just a clear statement of what you will do if the behavior happens in the future.

The key is for your lawyer to forward this to the opposing attorney, who will then be obligated to discuss it with your stbX.  He will be told, by his attorney, that he should comply with the court order or get a different attorney.

Also, I would suggest being pro-active with the school - don't wait for them to call you, you arrange a meeting with them.  You may want to keep it simple - just you and the principal - give her a copy of the temporary order with the schedule highlighted, and make it clear that you expect them to comply with it.  Not blame for what occurred - they were caught by surprise I imagine - but hold them accountable to follow the court order in the future.

Or, you could elevate it a little - maybe include your own attorney and maybe even the opposing attorney.  Make it a "problem-solving" meeting.  If you are 100% in the right, you probably won't have to say much - just thank everyone for coming and let them know what you hope will be accomplished - and then let the attorneys work through the issue and inform the principle as to what is right.  This will make it a more solid thing - not just you and the principle but both attorneys agreeing on what needs to happen.  Make sure your attorney is prepared and strong - she should do the heavy lifting not you.  The message should be, "This is what the court order says and this is what will happen;  anybody that violates this will experience consequences."

Of course if your attorney invites the other attorney, he will probably invite his client too.  No problem - just be prepared with the court ordered schedule, and make sure your attorney is prepared to repeat as often as necessary:  "This is the schedule established by the court.  My client will comply with it.  If anyone else - stbX or the school - does not comply with it, we will take appropriate legal actions to hold that person accountable."  The school will not want to get in legal trouble, so they will comply with it.  And your stbX's attorney will insiste that he comply with it too (though in the meeting he may make a show of fighting, to make his client happy).

Then make sure your attorney is prepared to take some action if the schedule is violated again.

But... . you can also make it clear, that you are open to small changes in the schedule, mutually agreed by e-mail.  That's very simple - one party sends an e-mail saying, "I'll be off work early Friday so how about if I pick up the kids at 4:00 instead of 6:00?" and the other replies, "OK."  Don't "trade" time - just make small adjustments that are mutually convenient.  Or if it's not convenient, say so:  "That won't work for me."  No argument, and no phone or face-to-face discussion - just a simple e-mail exchange to either make a mutually agreed change, or not.

[marbleloser]

I'd be interested to know if he brought the kids back.