HELP-DD has me between arock and a hard place

[ThreadBareNess]

DD has told newest psychologist that I'm the one that needs help. In other words, how

can I meet her needs if I'm the one who needs help because she can't help the way she is.

So, according to DD psychologist wants to see both of us in her office this Friday.

When I asked how this topic came up in her last session... . the response was "what are you afraid of?"

She then asked me not to tell her psychologist about a certain incident in her past because she wanted to tell her

psychologist in her (DD's) own time.

Any suggestions?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[cleanandsober]

I was in a similar situation when my daughter turned 12.  Her and I were in a mother/daughter session with, at the time, a new psychologist.  It was an eye opener for me when my daughter told the doctor that I (being myself) needed to get help.  The doctor agreed and recommended that I should be in individual therapy and we should also start family therapy.  I started individual therapy and it has helped me realize how my behaviors and attitudes needed to change also.  I have learned many things since than, most importantly that mental illness effects the entire family.  I would also respect your daughter's request and let her tell the psych. when she is ready.    The book Walking on Eggshells and I Don't Have To Make Everything Better have been very helpful to me also.  Best wishes and keep coming back... .    

[qcarolr]

ThreadBareNess

Finding ways to validate you DD's feelings can help set a more positive tone. It can also help you accept how you may have invalidated her in the past and that you are willing to work on your part. You can also share some of the family concerns you have, other than the incident your DD wants to share.

It has been really hard for me to be positive in joint therapy sessions with my D. Her T is there for your D first. If you can set a positive tone, this may offer the best opportunity for you to be heard by the T. I wish I had known of all the skills for validation and values-based boundaries when those sessions were available. They were all prior to the BPD dx, and I was so absorbed in taking care of my own pain I was not there for my DD at all.

The "I Don't Have to Make Everything All Better" is a quick, pracitcal guide to validation.

"Overcoming BPD" by Valerie Porr is focused on parents of kids with BPD. It also has a great section on validation and most anything else you need to know about BPD with your D.

This would be my suggestion to start. Take care of yourself, then you can be there in the best ways for your D.

qcr  

[pessim-optimist]

Hi ThreadBareNess,   

I am trying to better understand your question:

Are you concerned, because you are wondering how the meeting with the psychologist might go and what to say, or are you concerned because you do not know if you want to go to this meeting and do not know how to communicate it to your dd?

Hang in there, life with this illness in our loved ones can be confusing, frustrating and just plain exhausting. But there is hope!

[vivekananda]

Hi   

I would also be interested in your answers to pessi-o's qtns. In the meantime, I will assume that you might be just plain scared (as I would have been).

I have found your earlier posts and see your dd is an adult who was diagnosed with BPD but changed T and is now not diagnosed BPD. Is that right?

Ok, if I were in my shoes, knowing what I know now. I would want the T to hear 2 things:

1) I want to support my dd. (To that end, I would be learning as much as I could about validation and values based boundary setting (limit setting). The books by Porr and Lundberg that qcr suggested were the best for me to start with. The Lundberg book is a general parenting book and doesn't mention BPD). I would ask the T if there was anything else s/he thought I could do.

 

2) I am worried that she gets the right treatment. I would ask him if he knew that she has been diagnosed BPD previously and then she changed t's. (with this topic I would be very careful. Some T's don't like to use the word BPD, they like to talk about anxiety or depression or trauma or whatever. My dd is diagnosed as PTSD due to a lifetime of abuse by me, I haven't met her T, he obviously believes her somewhat... . for the moment though, she is getting treatment.)

Finally, your dd is seeking treatment. That's good. For the moment it may not matter that this T hasn't told her she has BPD. It may be that he is not telling her because he has to build a relationship of trust before he can successfully treat her.

The hardest thing of all for me has been to accept that I cannot help mu dd32, she has to do it herself. I can only support her by building a better relationship with her and changing myself. Yep. You heard right. I have learnt that the only thing I could do was to change myself. No, I don't have BPD, I am mentally and physically well.

I think you are lucky to get to see your dd's T. I would encourage you to keep that contact open as much as possible. And yes, I have also had my own T who has helped both my dh and I through some very hard times.

Viv     (again I wrote too much!)

[ThreadBareNess]

Hi pessim-optimist,

No, I am not oncerned about how the meeting will go... . My main concern is not to make things worse. It will really depend on what mood DD is in and if her meds are working. They still haven't found the right dose for one med and the psychologist wants to have DD stop the other med and replace it with something different... . So I'm questioning the timing of the meeting.   I am also wondering what it is exactly that DD really expects to get out of this meeting... . if her expectations are not met then it will not be a happy day... . I also know that if I don't go DD will think that I don't care... . I have been accused of caring more about the baby than her.

[qcarolr]

ThreadBareNess -

A couple comments from my experience with DD27.

1. Meds. - BPD is not directly helped by meds. The newest research is leaning toward BPD being from communicatin withing the brain areas, not the biochemistry of the brain. That said, meds can be very very helpful for some symptoms and other things that occurr at the same time as BPD. For my DD this is depression and anxiety. She also has always suffered from insomnia - night is her panic time. When she takes her prozac for depression and trazedone for anxiety and sleep she does better. When she convinces her meds. provider to give her stimulants for her ADHD, she becomes very dysregulated and aggressive - which she never shares with the provider of course. And then there are times when she does not take her meds at all.

2. How old is the baby? My DD is very jealous when we give more attention to gd7 than to her. Even if this is simply the normal care needed by any child. She feels replaced by her daughter at times. And she 'believes' that she is a good mom, even though she is not able to provide independent care for more than a couple hours before asking when we will be back. dh and I have custody of gd since she was baby. DD did really well til her babies were about 3 months and started to show their own persoanlities.


To stop making things worse, and encourage your D to continue in her therapy I would avoid any labeling - ie. bringing up any dx in the session. This is between your D and the T. And focus on one of the key peices of valadation: support without judegements. This is hard for me because I often do not get how invalidting and judegemental  some of my comments feel to DD27.

Keep coming back - we are here to support you in whatever ways you need.

qcr  

[vivekananda]

To stop making things worse, and encourage your D to continue in her therapy I would avoid any labeling - ie. bringing up any dx in the session. This is between your D and the T. And focus on one of the key peices of valadation: support without judegements.

qcr is right. I take back what I said... . it was my own 'ego' talking because that's the sort of thing I would want to say to my dd's T - but truly, that's my own need and my dd's T is only for her, not for me.

Vivek    

ps whatever the T says, listen because s/he would have things to say that it is important for you to hear. 

[pessim-optimist]

I see, ThreadBareNess,

That makes sense... . I'd be concerned too. Is there a way for you to talk to the T maybe privately on the phone prior to the meeting and ask him what his expectation is for this meeting and voicing your concern regarding the timing and your dd's medication changes? If not, I'd just tread lightly at the meeting and take the T's lead, and let him be in control of the meeting... .

I suspect there might be two separate agendas: your dd's and the T's. So, as far as your dd's expectations, I see how it could be a challenge. It might not be easy especially with a T that you do not know, however, if he stays in control and if you refer back to him, there's a good chance it will go ok. One thing to remember - you are not responsible for your dd's reaction, and it is ultimately the T's problem to deal with (as he invited you to the session) - you are just a guest there (that might take a bit of the pressure off of you). You are only responsible for yourself and your actions in this setting... .

Either way, know that we are here to support you whether it goes well or even if it goes not so well.   

[ThreadBareNess]

Hi All,

The diagnosis means more to DD than to me... . DD needs help regulating her emotions regardless of the label, especially concerning the rage and how she interacts with her, under six month old.  This is where the immediate problem lies for my DH and I.  Having delt with this, whatever one may call it, for years... . the concern is for the saftey of both the baby, who is helpless, and DD. 

Just last night DD called her psychiatrist to again change her meds because the she doesn't feel "perfectly right". I have seen some positive improvement in DD on the current medication, but medication alone is not a "cure all".  And, yes, DD will get the new medication today. I do not know if the psychologist will be aware of this by the time of the meeting on Friday... . the psychiatrist and psychologist do communicate with one another, but as to how often, I do not know.

This morning DD tells me that the reason for the new med is because she gained 5 lbs. and that it really wasn't working because yesterday, according to DD, while I was out shopping, she almost threw the baby over... . I'm always hearing, "Take the baby, because I'm getting upset". "Will you feed her?" "I'm running late". DD is obsessed with her looks and what she is going to wear. She will try on 5 outfits. After each one someone has to tell her how she looks and she throws a fit if the response is not to her liking. We can't tell that see looks just fine... . she wants more than that... . and even if she likes the response she is just as likely to cange her mind, again.

Basically she loves dressing the baby and showing the baby off, but she does not like having to hold the baby or take care of the baby. She complains that she can't get anything done. Well, I can't get anything done either, and when I try to go about my own businss, when at home, DD starts complaining, cursing, yelling and tossing the baby around like a sack of potatoes and then the baby screams.  Most of the time when this happens and I go to pick the baby up, DD will let me, but many times DD will shout at me and tell me not to pick up the baby. There have also been times when either my DH or I have been holding the baby and DD comes over to us and rips the baby out of our arms because she is upset by the way we looked at her or something we my have said that set her off.

I have doubts as to whether her T knows the full extent of her rages, especially when it comes to the baby. Thus my concerns.  DD just called, she is out with the baby for a few hours... . she called to tell me that when her best friend took this new medication, that DD hopes to start today, best friend's boobs became larger and DD hopes that her own boobs will become larger as well... . no mention as to whether said mediction helped best friend with the problems she was having at the time.

So When I attend this meeting Friday I will sit quietly and listen and when asked questions by T I will have to choose my words carefully and try to be positive and supportive to the best of my ability.  This whole process is extremely mentally exhusting for me.

Just as a side note, I discovered about 5 months ago that I am a Highly Sensitive Person (HSP). This is not considered a disorder. (Anyone interested can find out more information at the the following website: www.hsperson.com). I was searching on the internet as to why I was so sensitive. All of my life people have told me that I needed to have a thicker skin.  I purchased all the books I could find on being a HSP and I even have the workbook, but I've be unable to go through it because of this lastest conitinuing saga. The last 5 years have been so hard. DD married, again. I had a PBM, my parents are having problems, and DH lost his job of almost 30 years because the company liquidated about six months ago.

There is, of course, much, much more... .

The more suggetions the better... . thank you ALL for your continued support.


 

[vivekananda]

I want to say something that if I were in your shoes, could have happened (until I immersed myself in learning about validation and mindfulness etc).

Have a look at my avatar, the book says, 'why is it always about you?' Well that is a constant message I have there for myself. Prior to joining this site here, I would have tried to fix my daughter's problems, told her what to do etc. Well now I know how that was not helpful for her, but instead that was all about me trying to make myself feel better. I saw a situation that made me uncomfortable and I tried to fix it. If I had the chance to see my dd's T, I would have not been able to contain myself and would have used the opportunity to try to ease my discomfort with dd's situation (well I was frantic until I learned and began to understand)... . I thought that was what a good mother would do... . oh so self centred and wrong it would have been.

If I had the chance to see my dd's T now, I hope I would be constantly reminding myself, 'This is not about me', not about my problems, my worries and my anxieties. This is not my T. This is not my therapy.

I am sure this has the potential to be a most positive opportunity for you and your dd. I wish I was in your shoes 

cheers,

Viv   

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[pessim-optimist]

Wow, ThreadBareNess,

That's a lot of stuff going on. You must be truly exhausted... . (At least I would be).

Couldn't stop laughing about the "breast-enhancement" medication! 

I did not realize that your dd was living with you. That is always a hard situation. You may truly be an HSP, but living and coping with a pwBPD would get to anyone! That's why there are so many posts on this board - sharing, brainstorming, trying to find solutions and relief etc.

I am assuming your dd moved in with you so you could help her during her husband's deployment? As there are housing benefits and also extra income during the deployment time, do you think your dd would be willing to get a place of her own somewhere nearby, so you could help out but have a separate domicile with the ability to have peace when you need it?

It would also add more structure to your lives and give you more control of what's happening in your home. It was my experience, trying to help my sd32 through deployments (we moved across states to stay with her), that she got more enmeshed with us as time went on, got more unreasonable and demanding while getting more and more emotionally dysregulated. We were genuinely trying to help, but not knowing about BPD, we did not realize that by enabling her we were actually making her worse. Both times, we ended up leaving before the time was up, because the situation became unbearable. And THEN, surprisingly, things settled down. Suddenly she was able to take care of herself and her kids, and do things for herself we would not dream about her doing while we were there. Sure, there was still drama, there were still 'emergencies' and many many calls, but she managed... .

[qcarolr]

ThreadBareNess   

Having the baby in the middle of your D's  emotional outburts makes it all so much murkier. Others have offered some wonderful ideas for handling the T session with your D on Friday. Supporting your D in connecting with this T is so valuable.

I feel compelled to focus on the baby in your life. My DD and the daddy lived with us when gd7 was born. He was gone - took off 6 weeks twice before gd was 7 months old. Then was out of her life except an occasional letter or phone call.

When the daddy stepped out of the picture at 8 months (year in jail, then he left for good to avoid his probation), DD could not cope at all. She did go the therapy at that time, but did not really participated. We were left with gd a lot. DD was deep into cocaine friedns that year. And DD has always put gd in the middle of her demands and raging with us. Feels so very manipulative - and is so hard on gd. Even though we ended up with custody when gd was 18 months - the daddy convinced dd to agree to this before he left as he knew we would take care of gd and dd would use her to manipulare him - we still struggle with dd's impact in our life and on gd. it has taken me until recently to really put dd out of our home and trying to put her out of my constant thinking. dh and I are not sure of our plan to stick with this long term. just know we will find a way. gd will stay with us.

So I get how hard this is for you. Taking custody would have been a huge battle without the input of the daddy, though social svcs would have stepped in at some point. gd was in a very neglectful situation. We had support from social svcs prior to our private adventure in petitioning for custody. DD was going to fight it all the way. So grateful for the daddy's moments of clear thinking and love for this child.

It is so hard to decide when intervention is needed. you gd needs to be protected. She is a person, struggling to find a safe, secure hold in her little life so she can grow, learn, develop. She is not a toy or prop for your DD's identity in the world. I am concerned based on your descriptions. Is it possible for you to consult with a family lawyer in your community, one versed in non-parents wanting to protect a child? Would you be willing to get your local child protective services involved? Are you willing to take a bigger role in your gchild's life?

My experience with soc. svcs was good - they do try to work with the parents to learn how to be better parents. There is a lot of support there. In our county they always look for kin to place the child with first before foster placement. This would have an unknown impact on your r/s with your D.

There are many costs and benefits to each of these questions. Do you have a T of your own to help you with all the emotional truama YOU are coping with?o nly you and your dh can figure out what you are willing and able to do. My thoughts and prayers are with you during this struggle.

qcr  

[ThreadBareNess]

Hi All,

The meeting with dd's T was okay - Mostly chit chat first ... . then talked about dd's meds... . T did ask if I was getting my down time so as not to meet the threshold of no return... . I was honest and told her that I had reached my threshold the week before. I've really just been hanging by a thread for 2 months now.

There have been many incidents since then. This morning there was another and dd left with grandbaby to go see the T in a huff after dh told her that grandbaby was her responsibility and to step up to the plate, so to speak.  DD was going to leave grandbaby with me, especailly since dd was running late, as usual. Grandbaby had fallen asleep in the hgih chair while eating carrots, so I took the baby out of the highchair and sat down and grandbaby fell asleep right away.  DD comes out and yells at me for letting her fall asleep. I told dd that it was her choice to either leave the child with me or to take the child.  When dh started cooing at the grandbaby dd decided to take grandbaby. DD than said to the child, "Well, if you scream all the way to the T's office, oh well that's the way it goes". I then asked dd if she was taking the child because she was angry at her Father and not because it was better for the child.  No response, just muttering under her breath us. So that is where we are today.  Who knows what it will be like when she returns or what time she returns. DD started yet another medication 2 days ago.  I went to Costco alone Tuesday and only did so because dd took a pill to calm herself.  The whole time that I was away I worried about the grandbaby. DD also admitted that when she takes the baby with her to see her T that the T spends too much time asking and talking about the baby. She thinks that the T cares more about the baby. DD's DH will be home this weekend for 2 weeks.  It will be interesting to say the least.

ThreadBareNess

[Rusalka]

I am really concerned, especially since you mention that your dd throws the baby around, that she could injure or do worse to your gd. The outright rage and what seems to be a lack of maternal instinct on her part is very dangerous. I would suggest just as aside to start documenting any and all abusive behavior you see or hear about, even if it is yelling at the baby. Yanking a young infant around can cause permament damage, they don't have the neck strength of even an older child. Please make sure she isn't shaking the baby either; this can be fatal.

In all honesty if dd is this abusive and threatening to the baby, and you are completely overwelmed by gd, you may want to look into social services. I am not trying to be harsh, or mean, or anything like that, you have to decide what is best for the baby, and your dd is being physically and verbally abusive to an infant. If this continues and something does happen, you would be liable as well for allowing it to go on.

My heart breaks for you in this situation.

[qcarolr]

There is a lot of concern here. I am also surprised the T's have not moved to make a report to child welfare in your county if they are aware of the extent of this disregard for an infant's wellbeing. It was so hard to watch my gs being taken crying from my home, and DD27 was neglectful, not abusive in the way your D is acting out. It was the best thing for my gs. And the court really asked me over and over if I could take this baby into my life. DD would not have been able to live with me though. That was also hard.

And it continues to be hard to have DD in our lives and have permanent custody of my gd8. At times I have not been protective enough with gd when her mom is out of control with me and she is caught in the middle. Gd is older now, and r/s repairs are more possible.

It is hard to be torn between the heart connection we have with our own child and the one that is growing with our grandchild. The grandchild cannot protect himself - he needs you to do this for him.

Keep a journal, secured away from your D, of everything.

I am keeping you in my thoughts and prayers. For strength, courage, guidance.

qcr  

ps. can you lean into the love your dh has for this baby -- can you help each other find the courage and strength to make hard choices? I pray it is so. My dh has been my rock, my warrior in caring for gd8 since she was very young.

[Rusalka]

Is everything OK with you? I've been thinking of you and the baby and I hope everything is going well.